Falco Beats Fox!!

[BigD!!!]

swift i think of punishing as exploiting the weakness in anything the other player does in order to inflict damage on them. it could be offensive or defensive, you can punish spot dodges with timed attacks or you can punish frequent fsmashing by shielding a lot. so yeah a variation in a mixup can punish someone, so long as it works.

umbreon, maybe i'm just having trouble imagining the type of scenario youre talking about, but i still dont see what you are getting at. you seem to claim that once you gain the advantage of a read on someone, you can outplay them from then on without having to risk much in your choices. i still maintain that even when you notice a pattern, it still wont be 100% certain that your opponent will do it the next time as well. if you notice a falco doing slow shffl'd dairs on your shield, leaving himself open in the time before the dair comes out, you don't gain anything from this knowledge unless you punish it. if you dont, then everything goes back to even. if you take advantage of this pattern, you risk getting hit/combo'd in the event he does an early dair, but you might be able to start a combo of your own. its about weighing risk vs reward and the likelihood that the pattern will continue and all that.

 

[Europhoria]

The Fox, also knowing the ABC's, will not challenge Falco's offense from the shield, he knows that Falco will beat him in this position, so he plays defensive. After awhile, the Falco realizes that Fox is not challenging his offense, so he takes a few more liberties in offense.

I've been meaning to ask, why would they stop doing the super broken nonsense that Fox can't punish and just win that way? It's not like their shield will hold up forever <_<

 

[Naota21t]

I've been meaning to ask, why would they stop doing the super broken nonsense that Fox can't punish and just win that way? It's not like their shield will hold up forever <_<

Nothing falco can do on fox is completely nonpunishable unless ur talking just dair/shine run away, which isn't going to win you the match alone..

Pillaring can be beat by stuff OOS if they try to dair early in their sh, or if they try to dair late into their sh there's a period of time where they're in the air and they can be punished.

 

[Life After Death]

match up is even lol. fox can choose wen to hit falco all he has to knwo wen and where falco wants to shoot a laser lol. but im nto gonan waste my time explaining. its even *****s get over quit crying. if anythign the match up is 51-49 fox's favor

 

[Animal]

ya idont think any matcup besides dittos are truly even. its fuking close enough though. Knock hiim on his asss get him off the stage good game bro

 

[jugfingers]

when is Jman going to reveal his secret falco slaying technique?

anyone know of any upcoming tourneys that jman is attending?

 

[Dr Peepee]

HERB 3 in NC.

I guess I'll find it out.

Edit: I probably agree with Zhu. =p

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

match up is even lol. fox can choose wen to hit falco all he has to knwo wen and where falco wants to shoot a laser lol. but im nto gonan waste my time explaining. its even *****s get over quit crying. if anythign the match up is 51-49 fox's favor

I agree with Chops!

 

[Animal]

upthrow quadruple shine ftw

 

[unknown522]

unknown's sig is awesome

all dai!

Thanks

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

HERB 3 in NC.

I guess I'll find it out.

Edit: I probably agree with Zhu. =p

Actually imma say it might 50.5 or possible 51.5 in Fox's favor, but if you average it out...

 

[ChivalRuse]

"All Fox has to do is know when and where Falco will shoot a laser"

Cool! Oh wait. That's more than Falco has to do. All Falco has to do is shoot the laser.

 

[Animal]

hahahah solid point. But come on now us foxes have found ways around the laser. we got better kill moves and recovery. better grabs, stop complaining will ya?

 

[Life After Death]

all dai!

Thanks

yo son ur sig is madd beast i want one like that who drew that?

 

[unknown522]

a player named blowtoes drew this. I think he lived in Las Vegas for a bit, but he's obviously canadian

 

[Silent Wolf]

yeah i was gonna comment on that too

 

[Rubyiris]

Just my own thought on the matter:

Normally Usmash oos requires them to make a mistake, and on average you shouldn't be implementing a strategy that requires the other person to make a mistake.

Now the inverse to this, and which is why I decided to bring this up:

What if for example, PC knew what it looks like when a falco makes a mistake, and also take into account that he also plays Falco. in this situation, PC can simply usmash oos in reaction to the falcos mistake, rather than rolling away.

What mostly brought this question about is because I was reminded that TaJ plays mostly be reaction, and I figured, someone with a decent enough reaction time should be able to see, recognize, and punish a mistake such as an aerial placed too high on his shield. I also remembered all the the numerous times I myself have been shield grabbed on reaction by some of Tucson's better players and figured that the same logic could be applied to usmash oos.

 

[ArcNatural]

falco's perfect pillar has a 15 frame window of weakness, upsmash oos takes 8 frames. see where im going?

If this is true Ruby I don't see how it requires Falco to make a mistake, it just requires Fox to be precise.

 

[jugfingers]

Usmash oos requires them to make a mistake,

no.

it just requires Fox to be precise.

yes.

 

[Rubyiris]

Why not read my entire post instead of singling out a single segment of it?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

and on average you shouldn't be implementing a strategy that requires the other person to make a mistake.

^imo that's the entire concept to winning the game, punishing your opponents mistakes, every little detail is a mistake to where you DI, the move you execute at the wrong time. it's all part of winning/losing.

mango clearly shines in this concept over techskilllz

 

[ArcNatural]

Why not read my entire post instead of singling out a single segment of it?

Because that part was factually wrong, and every other statement you wrote has to deal with Falco making a mistake. Which is false.


I agree that really good players are really good at punishing on reaction. But it's not entirely the case, I believe it falls on expectation as well. Good players against Good players have just as much trouble punishing on reaction (to pillaring at least) because they don't expect the other person to mess up. PC had this happen so many times because his shield pressure was the first to be insane and rarely would anyone grab him for messing it up. Shine OoS responses have made the timing easier for a lot of players.

I would argue that PC is just really good and understands the timing of upsmash OoS. One of my biggest problems in this game is failing to keep my shield stun or hitlag timings consistent and great players minimize these problems greatly.

The real issue with upsmash OoS isn't whether you can actually get it off. It's 100% possible in every single pillar case that's not multishine or shine+grab (at least against Falco don't know the numbers for Fox). It's the pros and cons for trying it. I believe IMO in the right situations there are more pros than cons for the most part, but it's only really been used by PC at high level so there isn't a large enough sampling size to truthfully argue that it's worth it.

I do believe that it should be explored more (I imagine RaynEX, Unknown, Lovage, etc. can easily try this and figure out how well they can really get it to work).

 

[SpaceFalcon]

It's just playing falco over fox is like someone holding your hand along the way, all your moves connect easier and more fail-proof. Lasers over-all domination in the match, pretty much it. Fox is better in every way though if used right.

 

[Professor :3]

It's just playing falco over fox is like someone holding your hand along the way

They are nothing alike.

 

[JPOBS]

Yea PC is really the only person who ever upsmashes OoS vs good players. Thats why it was brought up earlier "hey guys, maybe upsmash OoS should be tried more often you never know it could be pretty good"

but everyone else was all like '"NO lets just be stubborn and never try anything new ever gtfo scrub"
:/

 

[Dynamism?]

^ PP - That isn't even relevant to the statement you quoted. >_>
LOL

Falco is easier than Fox for auto combos. Just go be faster and grab Flacoflacoflaco

 

[Animal]

ANYTHING out of shield is useful in todays metagame imo.

 

[forward]

I've been using up smash oos lately and anytime I land it I can follow it up with big damage. If I miss then sometimes I take equal damage but at least I can buffer DI if I miss. Falco is not likely to have good DI if he gets up smashed, so I think this tactic is actually pretty good.

Always use good judgement though =p

 

[jugfingers]

I've been using up smash oos lately and anytime I land it I can follow it up with big damage. If I miss then sometimes I take equal damage but at least I can buffer DI if I miss. Falco is not likely to have good DI if he gets up smashed, so I think this tactic is actually pretty good.

Always use good judgement though =p

how does your fox do against axe's falco?

 

[Sync99]

What I did as a Fox player to deal with Falco:

1) Learned how to power shield lasers.
2) Picked up Peach.

Surprisingly, the first option has been a better choice so far.

 

[Animal]

What I did as a Fox player to deal with Falco:

1) Learned how to power shield lasers.
2) Picked up Peach.

Surprisingly, the first option has been a better choice so far.

learn how to shine out of shield is even better

 

[forward]

how does your fox do against axe's falco?

We've been going back and forth. Usually one of us wins consistently over the other during one session, but the next time we get together to play the other person wins more.

 

[Sync99]

learn how to shine out of shield is even better

I'll have to work on that in case the lv9 computer strategy fails.

 

[jugfingers]

We've been going back and forth. Usually one of us wins consistently over the other during one session, but the next time we get together to play the other person wins more.

ah word, yea axe's falco is pretty beast. are their any other good falco's that you play against?

 

[Rubyiris]

Because that part was factually wrong, and every other statement you wrote has to deal with Falco making a mistake. Which is false.


I agree that really good players are really good at punishing on reaction. But it's not entirely the case, I believe it falls on expectation as well. Good players against Good players have just as much trouble punishing on reaction (to pillaring at least) because they don't expect the other person to mess up. PC had this happen so many times because his shield pressure was the first to be insane and rarely would anyone grab him for messing it up. Shine OoS responses have made the timing easier for a lot of players.

I would argue that PC is just really good and understands the timing of upsmash OoS. One of my biggest problems in this game is failing to keep my shield stun or hitlag timings consistent and great players minimize these problems greatly.

The real issue with upsmash OoS isn't whether you can actually get it off. It's 100% possible in every single pillar case that's not multishine or shine+grab (at least against Falco don't know the numbers for Fox). It's the pros and cons for trying it. I believe IMO in the right situations there are more pros than cons for the most part, but it's only really been used by PC at high level so there isn't a large enough sampling size to truthfully argue that it's worth it.

I do believe that it should be explored more (I imagine RaynEX, Unknown, Lovage, etc. can easily try this and figure out how well they can really get it to work).

Aka you didn't read the entirety of my post.

Good to know.

 

[ArcNatural]

Aka you didn't read the entirety of my post.

Good to know.

Just my own thought on the matter:

Normally Usmash oos requires them to make a mistake, and on average you shouldn't be implementing a strategy that requires the other person to make a mistake.

Now the inverse to this, and which is why I decided to bring this up:

What if for example, PC knew what it looks like when a falco makes a mistake, and also take into account that he also plays Falco. in this situation, PC can simply usmash oos in reaction to the falcos mistake, rather than rolling away.

What mostly brought this question about is because I was reminded that TaJ plays mostly be reaction, and I figured, someone with a decent enough reaction time should be able to see, recognize, and punish a mistake such as an aerial placed too high on his shield. I also remembered all the the numerous times I myself have been shield grabbed on reaction by some of Tucson's better players and figured that the same logic could be applied to usmash oos.

Please point out your basis in your post that doesn't seem to signify a mistake is originally made. You say normally in the first sentence if you want to argue that somehow the rest of what you said could be interpreted both ways then lol I'll concede.

Based on this and what I said previously I guess you'll take great pleasure in thinking I'm a dolt because I'm clearly missing something here.

EDIT:
Good players can react and punish mistakes sure, the whole issue I brought up with your post is that a mistake doesn't have to be made for a person with good (or bad who knows) reaction time to punish it.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

They are nothing alike.

Are you just trying to make me look dumb or something? that made no sense to what I posted.

 

[Turazrok]

They are nothing alike.

Who are you again?

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

haha i saw some new matches of pc and he even shields hoping to get pressured so that he can upsmash oos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MinnesotaSmash

^some pc chris vids on there...

oh and the example i really noticed was in the falco ditto on battlefield. I know he wasnt fox but upsmash oos is roughly the same i think, timing wise anyways

 

[Lovage]

omfg Pcs falco is still beautiful