• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Falco Beats Fox!!

pressokman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
155
Location
Saskatoon
Other than up-smash, which is a "weaker" option and shine OOS, which is probably the "strongest" option what are our other good options? I still like to wait for the shine and do a quick nair OOS or if they do an early nair wave dash OOS. I like to shield a lot vs falco because i think we have good options and his grab follow ups aren't the best.

BTW i agree with everything silent wolf has said in this thread.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
This thread provided a great means for discussion on the match-up, but we definitely steered it off topic. Have we reached a consensus on what we think this match-up is?

imo: Falco's favour, but not as much as Jman suggested in the first post. 55/45, but on certain levels I can see it being even. I just want to get an idea of what everyone's opinion is.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
honestly, my opinion on this matchup changes everyday.

granted i dont play it often from the fox side, but i play it as falco, some days i feel like i cant win, and other days i feel in cruise control.

i think its perfectly even unless you're playing someone straight up better than you.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
I think a lot of foxes have it wrong about FD.

Falco doesn't get grabbed very easily, and I never considered matchups based on chaingrabs (unless its no chance 0-death chaingrabs like sheik on lots of ppl). Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but i like to use the platforms on other stages use them to gain positioning over a lasering falco. On FD you're sort of stuck with horizontal movement by running and powershielding (which is effective if you can do it 80% or so consistently) and jump/double jump baiting in order to find an opening. Also, falco combos really well on FD vs fox.

tl;dr chaingrabs aren't much better than uthrow->usmash and there are no platforms to dodge lasers.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
yah i dont think fox wins on FD anymore after playing shiz
If you played gay and CGed him off every grab, no exceptions - you probably would have done alot better on FD. Thats the only way Fox can take Falco. He has to match the damage output Falco gets when he lands an aerial -> combo.

(The combo value is like 60% or death. You have to try to emulate that with a perfect CG -> edge-guard)
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
I think fox wins on FD because falco cannot use shine waveland gay**** on plats, nor can he do any low % kills using shine/up b
fox loses his ability to use plats to dodge lasers but gains combo potential because falco can't tech on plats out of ****, and you can usmash/uair/bair/uthrow/nair pretty much from 0-very high every single stock if you can get a grab
and if you're decent at power shielding it's not bad at all, much better than the mixed up lasers falco can shoot with the help of plats
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
I think fox wins on FD because falco cannot use shine waveland gay**** on plats
This is a a bad reason. I'd rather the Falco work for his kills and get those wavelands properly to take my stock. On FD every Falco main in the world can dair shine X3 -> edge-guard for your stock. FD makes it easier for Falco because the follow-ups on hits are less tech-skill intensive and flatland makes it easier to read d.i. and pursue accordingly.
 

PK Webb

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
2,753
Location
the lab
This is a a bad reason. I'd rather the Falco work for his kills and get those wavelands properly to take my stock. On FD every Falco main in the world can dair shine X3 -> edge-guard for your stock. FD makes it easier for Falco because the follow-ups on hits are less tech-skill intensive and flatland makes it easier to read d.i. and pursue accordingly.
Good post I actually ban fd versus falco because its easier for a falco to get a shine then a fox to get a grab
 

forward

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
2,376
Location
Tucson Arizona
I think to go FD or not is player preference. I'm not that good using Fox on FD against Falco, but nor am I good with Falco against Fox on FD lol. I prefer using Yoshi story or FoD for both sides of the match up.
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
This is a a bad reason. I'd rather the Falco work for his kills and get those wavelands properly to take my stock. On FD every Falco main in the world can dair shine X3 -> edge-guard for your stock. FD makes it easier for Falco because the follow-ups on hits are less tech-skill intensive and flatland makes it easier to read d.i. and pursue accordingly.
I had many reasons besides just that one. But in my experience I'd rather be getting pillar combo'd because it gives me time to think, whereas when I'm being waveshined everywhere on plats I can't think and do stupid things under the pressure.
I think it really does come down to the player (although I still hold that FD is cool for fox)
 

jugfingers

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
2,020
Location
kuu'lahngwntruhsks
yah i dont think fox wins on FD anymore after playing shiz
this is the same mistake jman made making this thread.


id just like to say that its my conviction that "Fox" wins on every level no matter who he's playing, unless its another fox in which case fox would still win,

if you lost and you were using fox it wasn't because of the character matchup its cause you got outplayed.


as the beast says in Kung Fu Hustle

In the world of kung fu, speed determines the winner

and in the world of melee, fox is the fastest in terms of attacking speed(cpt falcon can run the fastest obviously)



also was this tournament and were they recorded??
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
this is the same mistake jman made making this thread.


id just like to say that its my conviction that "Fox" wins on every level no matter who he's playing, unless its another fox in which case fox would still win,

if you lost and you were using fox it wasn't because of the character matchup its cause you got outplayed.


as the beast says in Kung Fu Hustle

In the world of kung fu, speed determines the winner

and in the world of melee, fox is the fastest in terms of attacking speed(cpt falcon can run the fastest obviously)
an important thing to remember is that human beings play melee, not robots. nobody uses fox to his full potential, and nobody ever will. i think the community is way too caught up in theory crafting and should pay more attention to realistic matchups. No fox goes into games breaking shields with multishines, never getting shield grabbed, spacing everything perfectly, recovering perfectly, etc.
With that being sad it's likely that fox remains the best character even in human hands but it is by no means insurmountable, and quite frankly imho he isn't much ahead of the likes of falco, sheik, marf, etc
 

Animal

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,142
i recently counterpicked ryan k's falco to FD and beat him pretty convincingly. FD is good for fox IMO. if anything even. because if you have good DI you can get out of shine combos easier without platforms effing u up
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
this is the same mistake jman made making this thread.


id just like to say that its my conviction that "Fox" wins on every level no matter who he's playing, unless its another fox in which case fox would still win,

if you lost and you were using fox it wasn't because of the character matchup its cause you got outplayed.

yeah no DUH. i was obviously being lighthearted when i said that, and i've thought it wasn't fox's auto-win level for like 2 years ever since i played zhu. the lack on platforms enables falco to control space with lasers much better than on any other stage. you're forced to full hop way more than you should, and it's really easy to take advantage of.

i think your whole "fox is perfect and if you lost its cuz you suck" thing is really dumb and it shows your inexperience as a player
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
I think it's a very narrow edge for Falco. I don't think stage matters too much (I'd give Fox FD and FoD and Falco Dreamland and maybe Yoshis), I just think it's so much easier for Falco. Unless it's FD, Falco isn't usually going to lose a stock off of a small mistake, where Fox often will. Falco's combos are more straightforward and, with platforms involved, easier to conclude with a kill move. And he has shine-bair for finishers, too.

When a falco slightly messes up a pillar, he'll get shined and probably nothing else, since it's hard to follow up a shine OoS with fox. If fox slightly misspaces an aerial, he will get shined and then combo'd or Fsmashed or something else disgusting, for example. I just think Falco has it too easy and gets too much freedom.

Oh, lasers are sort of gay too.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
Well assuming both players know how to play, if the fox gets a shine off, why would he not get a grab/u-smash/shine off their roll? even if they don't roll, shine/usmash still apply, dont they? still *****.
 

jugfingers

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
2,020
Location
kuu'lahngwntruhsks
yeah no DUH. i was obviously being lighthearted when i said that, and i've thought it wasn't fox's auto-win level for like 2 years ever since i played zhu. the lack on platforms enables falco to control space with lasers much better than on any other stage. you're forced to full hop way more than you should, and it's really easy to take advantage of.

i think your whole "fox is perfect and if you lost its cuz you suck" thing is really dumb and it shows your inexperience as a player

I didn't say fox is perfect, he's just has more than enough potential to beat every other character on every level.

so if you lose, don't blame it on star fox as a character cause he *****, and if you lost it is cause you suck.

also full hopping isn't the only way to get around lasers on fd....



also nice umsmash oos at 1:00 I guess you think umsmash oos is an ok move now??

http://www.youtube.com/thewaffle77#p/u/19/XGt3S3z4X4E

ok wtf I just watched you match against shiz on battlefield you were ****ing spamming Usmash OOS

.... and pretty effectively I might add.


oscar calm down you do lose cuz you suck =)
<3
yea straight up
 

Da Shuffla

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
1,810
I think it's a very narrow edge for Falco. I don't think stage matters too much (I'd give Fox FD and FoD and Falco Dreamland and maybe Yoshis), I just think it's so much easier for Falco. Unless it's FD, Falco isn't usually going to lose a stock off of a small mistake, where Fox often will. Falco's combos are more straightforward and, with platforms involved, easier to conclude with a kill move. And he has shine-bair for finishers, too.

When a falco slightly messes up a pillar, he'll get shined and probably nothing else, since it's hard to follow up a shine OoS with fox. If fox slightly misspaces an aerial, he will get shined and then combo'd or Fsmashed or something else disgusting, for example. I just think Falco has it too easy and gets too much freedom.

Oh, lasers are sort of gay too.
Fox has FoD?
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
24,020
Location
Grancypher
He never said it was a bad move, he just stated you shouldn't rely on it.

I like how you twist things to make yourself look right.

You also talk about Fox like no one can even touch him, you've never touched on Falco's advantages.
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
holy **** jugfingers you're a huge ******

do you really think you're being sly when you link me using usmash oos against shiz? what does that prove? i used it exactly in the situations where i described it works (he dair'd my shield high while not fast falling) so i took advantage, it's STILL not a good strategy to rely on and if you try to make it the lynch pin in your falco game you're going to get demolished.

this is what everyone's been saying from the beginning, that it's a good tool to have, but it's incredibly risky and you're better off focusing on other things. but you've been too dense to acknowledge this simple fact and you keep linking youtube videos like it proves anything. which it does, it proves exactly what we've been saying since page 1, you're just too dense to realize it.

and yes, fox is the best character in the game, but if you can't see his weaknesses, and if you can't even TOY with falco's possible advantages in the matchup enough to even participate in a discussion because you're so sure fox is perfect, it shows that you really suck **** at this game.
 

Frames

DI
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
2,248
Location
UCF (Orlando, FL)
i remember when i first started and people told me "yea fox has better matchups overall but falco has an advantage over him" but a lot of people still thought that fox had the advantage so much so that in fl people said lambchops was the foxkiller and no fox could beat him and they couldn't but colin did

idk that was my random story

i really just think falco has the advantage and i just dont like playing against falco lol
 

jugfingers

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
2,020
Location
kuu'lahngwntruhsks
holy **** jugfingers you're a huge ******

do you really think you're being sly when you link me using usmash oos against shiz? what does that prove? i used it exactly in the situations where i described it works (he dair'd my shield high while not fast falling) so i took advantage, it's STILL not a good strategy to rely on and if you try to make it the lynch pin in your falco game you're going to get demolished.

this is what everyone's been saying from the beginning, that it's a good tool to have, but it's incredibly risky and you're better off focusing on other things. but you've been too dense to acknowledge this simple fact and you keep linking youtube videos like it proves anything. which it does, it proves exactly what we've been saying since page 1, you're just too dense to realize it.

and yes, fox is the best character in the game, but if you can't see his weaknesses, and if you can't even TOY with falco's possible advantages in the matchup enough to even participate in a discussion because you're so sure fox is perfect, it shows that you really suck **** at this game.

lol man haterer more please, Im just laughing cause as soon as I mentioned usmash oos shield you and umbreon were like naw that only works on noobs you'll never get it off against good falcos lol I then I see you on battlefield ****ing spamming it against one of the top falcos in the game using it 3 times in the first two stocks.

its like why were you even arguing with me to begin with??


also if you had brought up a technique that was immediately shot down then you see the player that shot down your idea using that technique in the exact way you described later, don't tell me you wouldn't link a video and be like ha eat it *****. cause yea, thats just an obvious fun thing to do.


it's STILL not a good strategy to rely on and if you try to make it the lynch pin in your falco game you're going to get demolished.
I STILL never ever said this ever, did I ever say this?? no I didn't.



plus

this is what everyone's been saying from the beginning, that it's a good tool to have

lol this is what I've been saying from the beginning


Upsmash OOS is viable in certain situations

this whole thing all started cause umbreon just replied to me bringing it up with "no thats a horrible idea",

and then you were like yea umbreons right guyss you shouldn't rely on it, an I was like wtf I never said rely on it what are you talking about,


then this whole argument ensued with me trying to prove the usmash oos is a viable move, when infact an argument should never have taken place

it should have gone more like, yea usmash oos is good vs falco, hooray free usmashes lets party.


also when did I ever say fox has no weakness?

of course their are weakness that fox has but my point is that if your fast enough these weakness's are not really practically exploitable


all I'm saying is that an anecdotal loss you took in tournament against shiz isn't foxes fault.


and yes, fox is the best character in the game, but if you can't see his weaknesses, and if you can't even TOY with falco's possible advantages in the matchup enough to even participate in a discussion because you're so sure fox is perfect, it shows that you really suck **** at this game.
actually from a theoretical standpoint that might indicate that I **** at this game, if I was so beast with fox that I didn't even realize that falco was a decent character.

obviously this isn't the case, but im just sayin your haterasaurus logic is flawed
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
Fox has FoD?
Fox can apply ALOT of pressure on Falco. The stage is small and the low platforms mess up lasering. Sometimes when he SHs he lands on the platforms and the laser doesn't come out. Because of how close they are to each other, comboing from platform to platform is much easier for Fox. The edges of the stage are messed up and many moves can go below them. This helps you counter Falco's fast illusion sweetspot garbage. Low-angled ftilts and dsmash almost always work because of the ****ed up edges.

Oh yeah, and platforms can make it a bit harder for Falco to follow combos. Especially if he starts them on the stage's flatland...If he doesn't jump properly or whatever, he might land awkwardly on one of the low platforms and lose free damage.
 

PK Webb

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
2,753
Location
the lab
I just believe its easier for a falco to get off compared to fox....plus their is no stoppin a falco that gains momentum
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
honestly, when you play a really good fox, all it takes is a single knockdown when you're falco and you get tech chased/upsmashed/grabbed/ shined/ thunders/ upair'd and he's like a avalanche going downhill.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
Yeah..

I was playing Falco vs. Unknown's Fox today and just kept getting ****ed. Knocked over, hunted down, stock gone. Its mad annoying.

I still think Falco wins by a small margin.
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
lol yeah I've never thought about that before, you could conceivably out laser spam falco
I'm def. trying this next time I play
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,833
its not that hard to out laser falco if all falco is doing is trying to shoot lasers

just combine shields and fulljumps

the problem comes when falco lasers while close to you and attacks your shields and fulljumps
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
I'm curious. How do you do it? Do you SHDL OoS and shield lasers? Powershield?
try to power shield as best you can and just shdl out of shield as soon as his lasers hits your shield. so yes. or shield his first laser, then shdl then shine his next laser back. if you do stuff like that he wont just stay under the platform.
 
Top Bottom