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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
TresChikon
Smash Lord
It helps space your recovery or dodge a cape kill, but Ganon and Falcon are the only characters without the sweetspot, they have to literally TOUCH the ledge.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
But doc's nair works well with approaching and ***** in edgeguarding. If you land the heavier part of the nair while edgeguarding, your opponent usually won't return.
The Alpha Gundam
Smash Champion
I think Bair is his safest move
Most rewarding would probably be Grab,especially if your name is dogysamich
speaking of doggiesamich I cant wait for him to see this post and go on a rant lol
anthony000
Smash Journeyman
Wow, I just realized I put dsmash as one of the safest last night. Sorry about that. Don't know what I was thinking there.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
I use the safe move set to find out about an opponent plays. This includes the following:
-Full hop pill throw wavelanding back
-F-tilt
-Cape
-Full hop D-air
-Full/short hop B-air
The random caping works very well against swordsmen (Link, Marth)
And I don't wanna get infracted so I won't say how I truly feel about Marth.
But, Full hopping over your opponents with D-airs and landwaving away to space or landing with a F-tilt pretty much garauntees safety as long as you opponent doesn't expect you to full hop.
-Full hop pill throw wavelanding back
-F-tilt
-Cape
-Full hop D-air
-Full/short hop B-air
The random caping works very well against swordsmen (Link, Marth)
And I don't wanna get infracted so I won't say how I truly feel about Marth.
But, Full hopping over your opponents with D-airs and landwaving away to space or landing with a F-tilt pretty much garauntees safety as long as you opponent doesn't expect you to full hop.
I should get you room banned from the doc boards. ^_^ that'd be hilarious. ^_^
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Pills being safe is really relative to the opponent's character. i.e., they're not safe vs a character with a decent speed projectile (Samus can punish a pill with a charge shot, she just has to call a pill).
Even moreso, there actually is a "too close" for pills, in which people can take the hit and punish you before you recover. (a.k.a. "Azen's strat for lasers")
And since people specifically mention FH pills being safe, those are actually the most UNSAFE pills you can throw, because most of the game can just run under them.
___
Doc realistically doesnt have anything that's flat out safe to do. It's one of the flaws of him. Alot of risk/reward goes into him. Sure some of the risk goes away vs the character, but you get the point.
___
@Ricky: cape being safe really depends on your opponent. Think of it like this, if they plan on jumping THROUGH you with an aerial and you cape, you're still getting hit. That's the one thing that blows about cape in melee.
Caping somebody in shield isnt really safe either, unless they have a HORRID b.air or just dont think to b.air you when you turn them around.
__
As for the most rewarding thing, yeah it's probably a grab 80% of the time (aside from the obvious cape for a stock).
Other than that, I'd say it'd be a combination of low% f.airs, grounded u.smashes, and mid% dash attacks. But then again, all of those can lead to grabs anyway. XD
__
and alpha.
N**** u gay. ^_^
isthattim?
Smash Ace
most rewarding would have to be fair whilst off the stage with no chance of recovery followed by stalling all the way down as they die off the top 
So, there are a few new vids up.
Me vs Cornel
Me vs Hiroshima
Part of a friendly with Mike G
Me vs Cornel
Me vs Hiroshima
Part of a friendly with Mike G
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
back air is pretty good guys.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Hey guize
We can glide toss
lololol
We can glide toss
lololol
.... people are JUST finding out about that?
oh god.
oh god.
Desh
Smash Ace
My doc is ****in disgusting nao.
Ima **** you all at Pound 4.
and then ima have to
type like
this
and say
Pound4
all the time. get
*****.
Ima **** you all at Pound 4.
and then ima have to
type like
this
and say
Pound4
all the time. get
*****.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Shroomed
Smash Master
best way to edgeguard marth:
ledge hop nair w/ invincibility (make sure it's low so they cant sweetspot
ledge hop nair w/ invincibility (make sure it's low so they cant sweetspot
otg
Smash Master
best way to edgeguard marth:
force him to upB onto the stage by hogging the edge and then fsmash him back off.
TresChikon
Smash Lord
Cape his silly attempts to sweetspot
Desh
Smash Ace
QFT too.
That's the best way to edgeguard alot of characters in the game, but smash has some weird mentality that "If they land on the stage, even if they have recovery frames on their up+b, it's a successful recovery."
WHICH IS WHY I CANT UNDERSTAND WHY HALF OF YOU PEOPLE SWEAR DOC HAS A GOOD RECOVER
__
Although Im not gunna lie, I was chillin at the card shop today playin smash with a guy who doesnt play competitively (he mainly does speedruns of games, does BtT in melee), and he showed me that doc could do the hyrule jump. I actually didnt know that, but again, why would I care? XD
I felt kinda dumb when he could do it and I couldnt though. XD
-waits for alpha to tell me i've been replaced-
otg
Smash Master
I think Falco has the hardest hyrule jump, followed by Doc/Roy... I think Roy's might be easier I don't remember.
unknown522
Some guy
I like your doc. You were very aggressive.
Whenever link is above you and coming down with an attack, you can up-tilt him through his n-air and start a combo, or apply pressure if his damage is too low. You can up-smash through a lot of his moves while he is in the air and follow up. When he is in front of you without his shield up, a lot of times you could have just used f-tilt to push him away, so you will avoid getting hit by his CC -> move. You need to use up-air more to intercept his jumps and continue combos vs link.
You almost never grab against spife, though you had a lot of opportunities to do so. After a grab at mid percents, you can d-throw -> up-tilt -> move. You also run into his n-air a lot and get punished for attacking his shield. Try to cross up and go behind him while he's shielding.
You almost never used pills that match and you never used the cape to reflect projectiles.
For edgeguarding, do what desh said. It is really good. If they chain the wall, you can hold the ledge if they are trying to sweetspot, or if they don't get the sweetspot, you can cape them when they are coming up from the chain. It will knock them over, then you get a free move from it. You can also throw pills at him if you see him trying to go low, or mid height.
Trust me, I play agains the same links that desh play with (stos and 4serial). They are pretty good and even spife knows that they are better than him, not to brag or anything. They're not amazing, so I could be missing some stuff in my gameplay against like The Germ for example.
They're not as good as skler, trust me. I've played / watched him in person. I've played spife in person and they're definitely better than him.
You have some good points though.
doc v marth isn't like 10-90, obviously, but doesn't 40-60 seem a little too close? You have seen / played against top level marths right? It's a ***** of a matchup. I personally think it's like 5-10 points worse than what you said, but I may be a little biased somehow, because marth is such a **** character and shuts down pretty much everyone other than falco / sheik. Also his CC is too good in pretty much every matchup.
Doc is a good character, but he just seems a little over-rated.
Hyrule jump tierlist is different than recovery tier list. Trust me, I found that out yesterday. XD Cause I mean, I can do that **** cake with roy, but I cant do it with Doc. You wind up doing different strats to do it rather than the optimal recovery.
I mean, when me and the other guy did it with Link, he was like "oh this is a real hard one", and I just dropped down and bomb jumped. He said he's NEVER seen anybody bombjump, and he did some crazy-*** hook-shot-to-the-top-cave-and-then-recover-nonsense.
Man werent you saying Doc/Falco was 30/70 a lil while ago? XD
But, na, Doc/Marth. I still think that's really 3/7 myself, but Im apparently the only person in existance that really believes that, maybe m2k would say the same (I dunno). Nobody else I talk to lets me say it's 3/7, they say I talk too much about "perfect matchup" theory for that to happen.
Which, I guess is kinda true (the whole "me thinking perfect theory" thing), but I still say Doc/Marth is doc's worst matchup.
....over?!?!
OVER-RATED?!?!
Is that what's hot in the streets up there? OVERrated doc? XD
otg
Smash Master
I got the Falco/Roy/Doc thing from some old Gamefaqs about the Hyrule Jump. Said guide claimed that Falco was the hardest and that Doc/Roy had it hard too. Hyrule Jumping isn't that hard in the first place with any character, so this must just be in comparison to other characters.
Also yeah, I find it funny that you're calling Doc overrated Unknown. lol, if anything most people in the community wouldl argue he's a low tier, or just ****ty overall. I dont think me hyping him up in the Canadian Matchup Chart counts as him bein "overrated" lol. His matchups just really aren't as bad as you guys make them out to be, and I also feel that most of the listed matchups are heavily biased towards high/top tiers in the first place, so everything is skewed.
But regardless, bang up job, I stand by my ####'s (I say Doc/Marth COULD be seen as 40:60, this is what a few people were arguing to me during that weekend from GOD knows how long ago I posted it), I personally feel its a 35:65 or 30:70.
Also yeah, I find it funny that you're calling Doc overrated Unknown. lol, if anything most people in the community wouldl argue he's a low tier, or just ****ty overall. I dont think me hyping him up in the Canadian Matchup Chart counts as him bein "overrated" lol. His matchups just really aren't as bad as you guys make them out to be, and I also feel that most of the listed matchups are heavily biased towards high/top tiers in the first place, so everything is skewed.
But regardless, bang up job, I stand by my ####'s (I say Doc/Marth COULD be seen as 40:60, this is what a few people were arguing to me during that weekend from GOD knows how long ago I posted it), I personally feel its a 35:65 or 30:70.
Desh
Smash Ace
I said ALMOST as good as skler XD.
And imo for the top tier match ups,
i'd rather play a marth than a sheik or falco
between a fox and a marth i could really care less...maybe fox. yeah probably prefer to play fox over marth.
then i'd want a falco.
Sheiks last >_>
marth 65-35 (opiniotive, everyone finds this match up harder/easier)
fox 60-40
falco 60-40
sheik 75-25
I know i put spacies as even, but i find falcos lasers/shine annoying. Even if he'll die sooner without having to edgegaurd (by that i mean he gets knocked far enough away that he wont be able to recover period, opposed to fox who has longer recovery. (Although they should still both die once they're off the stage >_>)) i'd find fox easier when playing, but i think on paper they're about the same.
and yeah, im starving.
And imo for the top tier match ups,
i'd rather play a marth than a sheik or falco
between a fox and a marth i could really care less...maybe fox. yeah probably prefer to play fox over marth.
then i'd want a falco.
Sheiks last >_>
marth 65-35 (opiniotive, everyone finds this match up harder/easier)
fox 60-40
falco 60-40
sheik 75-25
I know i put spacies as even, but i find falcos lasers/shine annoying. Even if he'll die sooner without having to edgegaurd (by that i mean he gets knocked far enough away that he wont be able to recover period, opposed to fox who has longer recovery. (Although they should still both die once they're off the stage >_>)) i'd find fox easier when playing, but i think on paper they're about the same.
and yeah, im starving.
idea
Smash Master
KK posting
Sheik can do combos to Doc whooooooooooooooo~
Sheik can do combos to Doc whooooooooooooooo~
Shroomed
Smash Master
that's why you fight sheik with mario imo
marth v doc is 55/45 in marth's favor imo lol
marth v doc is 55/45 in marth's favor imo lol
Desh
Smash Ace
I shall consistently raeps joo next time D:
Grudge match for my dignity LOL =p
But f'real playing your sheik is fuuunn x)
Fecking hard as **** though >_>
~
Honestly, the match up is most likely 65/35 ... i would agree with you saying its 55/45 too.
But forreal its just a match up I like playing/i know what to do.
Really, against a good marth who knows what doc can and cannot do against him and knows what hes limited to... it becomes 35/65.
@ low levels you can say 55/45 is ok.
Just because doc/marth is kinda like every other match up at low lvls...really simple/straight forward 'lets hit eachother'
@ high levels with a marth and doc on the same level, and they both know the match up well, its better to say 65/35 ...if not 70/30. =/
edit: and really i'd play doc. Just seems better. DI / knowing the match up solves sheiks problem with mario combos =/ ... and i'd rather have throw>Fair, a better dsmash, and larger cape over the few combos that you cant accomplish with doc.
Cuz you can as a matter of fact get her off the stage more consistently from a single grab (Followed by more grabs of course) than mario =/
Cg> uair>dsmash./fsmash (depends on di)
Gets them off the stage , and likely in a position to be bair'd (carefully)
although i do wish doc had marios fsmash...im pretty sure docs, nor marios fsmash outranges any of sheiks tilts lol
and guys, if you get grabbed at a percent you know you'll die from a uair, dont hope sheik misses. Just take the fair and hope you gots some mad di and can get back to the stage.
*failed at that logic this weekend*
I'm sure i'm forgetting a bunch of useful sheik stuff i learned this weekend.
Idk, thats what double posts are for lolololol .... jk =3
I may be wrong though.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik can do combos to Mario too whooooooooooooooooooooooooo~
My argument negates Shroomed's existence therefore no more Shroomed Ball Z whooooooooooooooo~
All you need versus bad Sheik is crouch cancel because they won't crouch cancel back and crouch cancel fixes everything.
Against good Sheik they'll crouch cancel too and therefore fight your broken with superior broken and superior broken > inferior broken but you have a chain grab and a silly punish game so it's not unwinnable whooooooooooooooo~
Camp her until she makes a mistake or until she camps you back ^.^
My argument negates Shroomed's existence therefore no more Shroomed Ball Z whooooooooooooooo~
All you need versus bad Sheik is crouch cancel because they won't crouch cancel back and crouch cancel fixes everything.
Against good Sheik they'll crouch cancel too and therefore fight your broken with superior broken and superior broken > inferior broken but you have a chain grab and a silly punish game so it's not unwinnable whooooooooooooooo~
Camp her until she makes a mistake or until she camps you back ^.^
Scidadle
Smash Champion
whoooooooooooooooooooo~
Shroomed
Smash Master
If mario's fsmash doesn't outrange sheiks ftilt, I'm jus gonna pick up sheik and sheik ditto
-slaps skidaddle-
Get some content behind that post. >.>
___
Shroomed, yeah mario's f.smash out ranges sheiks tilts. Spaced properly, mario's f.smash it's pretty **** god.
I've contemplated picking up mario for sheik but 1) im too lazy and 2) I dont see good sheiks in tourney unless I go OoS.
But yeah, Mario/Sheik is better than Doc/Sheik, seeing as Mario can reach sheik and can combo the living mess out of her by way of a better u.tilt. (Actually, it's a combo of a better uptilt, lower-knockback u.air/b.air, and a longer f.smash that help.)
Get some content behind that post. >.>
___
Shroomed, yeah mario's f.smash out ranges sheiks tilts. Spaced properly, mario's f.smash it's pretty **** god.
I've contemplated picking up mario for sheik but 1) im too lazy and 2) I dont see good sheiks in tourney unless I go OoS.
But yeah, Mario/Sheik is better than Doc/Sheik, seeing as Mario can reach sheik and can combo the living mess out of her by way of a better u.tilt. (Actually, it's a combo of a better uptilt, lower-knockback u.air/b.air, and a longer f.smash that help.)
otg
Smash Master
hmmm... I'll try fuxing w/ Mario/Sheik next time I play a good one. Doc v. Sheik sucks, but it ain't that bad.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Mario's superior F-smash is nice against Sheik.
Sheik has invincible recovery so Doc's better cape doesn't do anything.
Doc has a lame U-tilt but Mario has a good one.
Mario has a combo Bair but Doc has a gimpy one but Sheik can't really be gimped like a normal character.
Sheik has invincible recovery so Doc's better cape doesn't do anything.
Doc has a lame U-tilt but Mario has a good one.
Mario has a combo Bair but Doc has a gimpy one but Sheik can't really be gimped like a normal character.
invincible recovery? What?
Stalling, yes. >.>
__
And ya know, SB sending me an aim message kinda made me think about this, and instead of just blowing it off, it's kinda better to ask.
Unknown, why do you say doc is overrated?
Stalling, yes. >.>
__
And ya know, SB sending me an aim message kinda made me think about this, and instead of just blowing it off, it's kinda better to ask.
Unknown, why do you say doc is overrated?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
She has invincibility on her Up+B from frames 18 - 57.
Good Sheiks don't get Caped / Baired by Doc very often because of invincibility, so Doc's gimpier Bair and larger Cape don't help as much as they normally do, so two of his usual "pluses" over Mario are negligible here.
I probably should have expanded upon that earlier, but I figured you'd understand.
Good Sheiks don't get Caped / Baired by Doc very often because of invincibility, so Doc's gimpier Bair and larger Cape don't help as much as they normally do, so two of his usual "pluses" over Mario are negligible here.
I probably should have expanded upon that earlier, but I figured you'd understand.
otg
Smash Master
I'm with you KK lol
Desh
Smash Ace
*playing KK*
something>bair stage spike
kk: WTF DESH. you dont do that to sheik!!!! >=p
something>bair stage spike
kk: WTF DESH. you dont do that to sheik!!!! >=p
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Hey Desh remember that time you won against my Sheik?
Oh wait that never happened.
Oh wait that never happened.
Desh
Smash Ace
Yeah it did wun tiem!
and your fox...wun tiem... >_>
and your fox...wun tiem... >_>
SpruceTengu
Smash Journeyman
I dunno if bair/cape are always the right way to go edgeguarding shiek with doc. My approach has always been not chasing her off the edge or trying to interrupt her recovery, but predicting, more or less, where the player's DIing her to appear out of poof, waiting there with an Fsmash or charging with a fair. If you can read the player well this can work out beautifully. Of course, you need the shiek to be in somewhat desperate straights and have to take it slow to keep your options open. Throwing pills to fux with her DJ's and recovery options really helps to make a player nervous and make them poof either A) prematurely or B) to the wrong (read: "right") place. All you need to do is be ready and quick enough to punish.
Cape, of course, falls in here if the shiek is gonna do something dumb like poof above the ledge where she can be caped after invincibility, but my point is that an emphasis on fuxing with shiek AFTER she Up-b's has worked much better than trying to leap off the stage and gimp like most characters.
I think I remember hearing Smashmac talk about this, too, which is where I got the idea.