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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

Dogysamich

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Im too lazy to read through everything atm.

18s im not gunna ban your **** account for having an opinion. Unless your opinion somehow returns to kirby being HARD. XD

and maybe it's just me, but i swear marth isnt easy to cape. I dunno, maybe I should start actually just trying it.
 

InterimOfZeal

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vs falcon's nair:

run away/shield it

or do what dogy said lambchops told him to do, run up so you can shield grab it
Or you can fsmash it. lololol

Seriously, make Falcon AFRAID to nair.

Captain Falcon is a tough match up sense his combos **** doc mario and the knee is a huge threat at 60% or more! Those nairs are really tough to get around! Shieldgrabbing is the best you can hope for!

If I do land the grab, I punish him with a combo. The combo usually gets him off stage. Then it's cake from there. Just Bair and cape. If you gimp an opponent with a shieldgrab-backthrow-bair-cape combo, just laugh and keep on trucking. Don't feel bad about it all!
Nair isn't that big a deal. CC, Fsmash, shieldgrab, run up and do something, usmash, utilt, uair... yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah...

Dair is the ***** move. Safe on block, prevents side-stepping, good for tech-chasing, decent priority, and leads into rapetastic combos. Only downside is how long it takes to go active. Hop up and sock 'em in the mouth to prevent spammage of that move.

---

I think that Doc is Doc's worst match-up. Everything else is 6-4 or higher for Doc. :D!

lol
 

Desh

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If you cant cg/combo sheik /falco/fox on any stage but fd you need to work on your cg's. (Especially sheik)

Furthermore, if you can only combo those 3 on fd, i understand why you think luigi is impossible to combo

And if they go onto a platform you can always tech chase to a dsmash/grab/fsmash/w.e lmao, its really not that hard.

You're tier list is muffed up dude. No offense =/ but sometimes the things you post are messseeddd lol.

Happy birfday to me.

and unknowns doc is freaking beastly. He might be one of if not the best...maybe....if he mained him =/ and was more exposed to bigger tournament.

edit: yeah dogy same, im gonna have to start trying it more, i'v gotten lucky occasionally but normally i just get messed up by the sword lol.
 

Stos

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If you cant cg/combo sheik /falco/fox on any stage but fd you need to work on your cg's. (Especially sheik)

Furthermore, if you can only combo those 3 on fd, i understand why you think luigi is impossible to combo

And if they go onto a platform you can always tech chase to a dsmash/grab/fsmash/w.e lmao, its really not that hard.

You're tier list is muffed up dude. No offense =/ but sometimes the things you post are messseeddd lol.

Happy birfday to me.

and unknowns doc is freaking beastly. He might be one of if not the best...maybe....if he mained him =/ and was more exposed to bigger tournament.

edit: yeah dogy same, im gonna have to start trying it more, i'v gotten lucky occasionally but normally i just get messed up by the sword lol.
Your going to get *****. btw happy you came out of your mom day.

---

Use lots of baseballsliide against Marth. CG Fox Falco Sheik.

Pill Pill Pill CG Nair Something Kobe?

edit: dunno play safe.
 

otg

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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Luigi is really annoying, I can see why Spikes thinks its in Luigi's favor. I can't say its Doc's 3rd hardest matchup or w;e you think it is, but it's definitely tough. Let's get some discussion going about the matchup.

His combo game on Doc is actually quite good, BS like Dair->Nair -> moveset, plus with his amazing WD/better range then Doc force Doc to play super gay and spammy. It's also relatively safe for him to edgeguard Doc with a WD off stage/drop down Fair/Bair, ledgehop dair or nair-> finisher at lower %s. Plus its really risky to attempt to combo him cause of his low hitstun and nair combo breaker, so you essentially have to rely on edgeguards/spamming pills and pokes to keep him out.

Essentially from my perspective its a more annoying version of Jiggs with much slower aerial mobility. And also, (my 2 cents here) Doc v. Floaties is super lame and boring to play, Doc v. FFers/Marth/Sheik is fun, but he loses most of those matchups. Why do I use this character again?
 

KirbyKaze

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If Luigi holds the edge, Shoryuken kills Doc off the top at like 68 on some stages.

If he doesn't hold the edge then Dair, Bair, or Fair will kill Doc anyway.

He can put Doc in "KO" percent pretty easily because a bunch of his moves are launchers. Doc's low stun isn't very helpful here because Luigi can just punch through his moves or trade [up] if he tries to defend himself with them.

Doc can combo back a bit (Luigi doesn't do 4 hit combos but a bunch of stuff like U-tilt --> aerial, or Nair --> Dair, or D-smash --> pseudo-combo / follow) but it all has to start from a grab because his non-grab launchers suck or are situational.

Though I will probably be disputed on this one, I don't think pills are't very good for keeping Luigi out because they don't hit through moves or linger like bombs, turnips, lasers, or needles. They stall him a bit, but he's still fast enough to cross long distances quickly and get into Doc's space.

I could see why someone might feel Luigi is hard for Doc, or even disadvantageos. But he's certainly easier than Sheik. I mean, Sheik's basically all of those things above except instead of Shoryuken she never bothers to let you onstage. Instead of doing small combo from throw, you do chain grab (but she does massive throw **** back to you). Instead of small combos from her launchers she does ones that either do lots of damage or setup edgeguards. As an added bonus, she can't be gimped and comes equipped with a ridiculous projectile, and even better range, priority, and crazy close-range speed.

Sheik too good.
 

eighteenspikes

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agreeing with otg, doc vs luigi is a handicapped ditto. everything doc can do to luigi, luigi can do better back. also def agreeing on the boring floaty issue. omg every time I play a floaty the match just degenerates into spacing bair, spamming fair and looking for jab>dsmash opportunities :urg: besides Peach, IMO peach is the only fun floaty to play.
 

KirbyKaze

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This is 68% before the upB connects or after?
Before.

I think it might be lower, but that seemed to work out okay in my head when I was thinking about it. It kills Puff (with DI) at like 47 or so on FD. I'm not sure Doc's heavier weight would account for a whole 21%; it's probably less in hindsight.
 

oh_dr_where_art_thou

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Random question:

Is it possible to cancel up-b on all versions of the game and if yes, how exactly do I do it?
Because I have a pal version, if that makes any difference. And if I try to do it, I just change the direction of the up-b, but it's not cancelled. Now, I understand that it's not easy; I just wanna make sure.
What do I do wrong... Right after up-b, do I have to hold the control stick down, or in the opposite direction, or both (diagonally)? It just looks so **** cool in some vids >.>
But is it even of much use in a real fight??

Thanks so much!

edit: okay, i just saw the other thread about it <.<
and it seems i should be able to do it...
so, what am i doing wrong if i'm just chaning directions?
 

eighteenspikes

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don't concentrate on "changing direction", just flick the stick as fast as you can :p It's frame perfect and so fast you can't really "count" the frames, so you have to just get used to the motion. My personal preference is to go from straight up to down+right... the direction you're facing is irrelevant. Eventually you'll get used to the timing :) Many advocate using it OoS to punish shield pressure, but it's mostly just for show; in fact, I'm a firm believer that the up-b is objectively more useful than up-b cancel in almost every situation. But all docs play differently, so mess around with it and see what works for you :bee:
 

Desh

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lol, show me a tourney vid of you 0-death cg'ing anybody. especially if it ends in uthrow uair dsmash :lol:

(happy birthday :bee: )
Lol, they obviously wont die from the dsmash but it will definitely get them off the stage and in a position to be edge gaurded.

And I hope your not gonna say marth is easier to edgegaurd than fox/falco O_o.

I do agree though that luigi is a *****, and floaties are boring. I play a luigi main all the time T_T

But I cant say with out lying that luigi is anywhere near docs 3rd worst match up @_@
I'd say its even at worst. maybe give it 55-45 to luigi. (This is coming from me, and i hardcore john/rage vs luigi players)

Just have to play it smart. You know he has a better on stage game than you. Dont try to challenge that. Thats why you wont get combos. Go for what you know is gauranteed.
hit him w/ bthrow>on slaught of bairs.
But really combo'ing luigi isnt easy obviously, and seems impossible when you play heavier characters >_> , but really when you get luigi off the stage hes dead, vice verse, the only slight advantage he has is that he can leisurely **** around with you on the stage, and your in more of a 'get him offf the ****in staaaaggee!!!!' kinda position.

But yeah, cgs that lead to dsmashs/ easy edge gaurds are something you dont have against marth.
And hes definitely no where near as vulnerable above doc as fox/falco/falcon/sheik.

And hes safer off the stage than fox/falco. >_>

sheik is arguable. Actually no sheik isnt really arguable. Shes definitely safer recovering. But yeah spacies are as good as dead off the stage, and marth can just swat you away and proceed to recovering, because caping him isnt as easy as spacies are coming from beneath, and he has a good vertical recovery, so he can fair / side b a few times to protect him self before having to worry about up b.



Random question:

Is it possible to cancel up-b on all versions of the game and if yes, how exactly do I do it?
Because I have a pal version, if that makes any difference. And if I try to do it, I just change the direction of the up-b, but it's not cancelled. Now, I understand that it's not easy; I just wanna make sure.
What do I do wrong... Right after up-b, do I have to hold the control stick down, or in the opposite direction, or both (diagonally)? It just looks so **** cool in some vids >.>
But is it even of much use in a real fight??

Thanks so much!

edit: okay, i just saw the other thread about it <.<
and it seems i should be able to do it...
so, what am i doing wrong if i'm just chaning directions?

ok, for you, you just change the joystick from the direction your facing, to the opposite, dont worry too much about where you start the up b,

But if your facing this way <---
You have to move your joystick this way ---> (vice versa)
and you cant let the joystick touch the sides in the process of moving it.
=/

Think of it as operation...except really fast...

Thats how i do it, and i can do it pretty dam consistenly now o.o


but yeah on a clock, say you start the up b from 2 o clock, you wanna get the joy stick to 9 o clock without touching any of the other numbers. =p

if you're at 10, you wanna get it to 3.

edit: i agree with spikes about the regular up b, it gets me out of some stupid ****. No one ever sees it coming lol, thats probably the main reason it works. But if you over use it to get out of silly combos, or avoid things, it'll become super predictable/punishable.

Its a good tool to use sparingly.
 

Dogysamich

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What. Ninja, you keep tellin me how doc is a terrible character, and you always agreed with me back in the day when I told people the best way to get good with doc is to move the icon down.

You must be thinkin of your character. >.>

FLIP IT NINJA!
 

InterimOfZeal

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Luigi is really annoying, I can see why Spikes thinks its in Luigi's favor. I can't say its Doc's 3rd hardest matchup or w;e you think it is, but it's definitely tough. Let's get some discussion going about the matchup.

His combo game on Doc is actually quite good, BS like Dair->Nair -> moveset, plus with his amazing WD/better range then Doc force Doc to play super gay and spammy. It's also relatively safe for him to edgeguard Doc with a WD off stage/drop down Fair/Bair, ledgehop dair or nair-> finisher at lower %s. Plus its really risky to attempt to combo him cause of his low hitstun and nair combo breaker, so you essentially have to rely on edgeguards/spamming pills and pokes to keep him out.

Essentially from my perspective its a more annoying version of Jiggs with much slower aerial mobility. And also, (my 2 cents here) Doc v. Floaties is super lame and boring to play, Doc v. FFers/Marth/Sheik is fun, but he loses most of those matchups. Why do I use this character again?
Dair>nair? Wtf?

Okay

Let me straighten some things out:

vs Luigi

His WD is long, but it's NOT GOOD

It forces him to commit to movement. Remember how you can't attack for part of a wavedash? Same thing applies to him. So what you do is either sh and stick a nair there for him to run in to, or cc dsmash. It's not even a 50/50. If you see him sliding and you're above 50%, sh nair. Otherwise, CC dsmash, or just clean dsmash.

Use pills to force the spacing for these situations.

Comboing him is weird, but Doc can actually do extended combos on Luigi. Your first 50% or so vs him is gonna be 50/50 guessing games, though.

jab>dsmash is a godsend when you catch him not CCing stuff. This is the first 50/50. Either they CC and jab/dsmash back (which you can CC and punish with... DSMASH! Doc is stupid), or they take it and fly off.

EDIT: SEEMS I WAS TIRED AND FORGOT SOMETHING!

A good Luigi will DI the jab upwards and nair, assuming you hitco into dsmash like I do. Against this, you wanna shieldgrab. It's really hard to read, though, because of how fast he pops out nair and how similar it looks to him just wanting to eat jab>dsmash. Be careful.

END EDIT!

Your next 50/50 is dthrow. If you expect them to try and CC anything, just grab him. After the dthrow, I'd recommend utilt, since it beats the ever-precious nair pretty cleanly, and, if spaced right (not hard to do vs luigi), pops up perfectly for a combo. Also, usmash beats all his aerials.

The 50/50 comes from whether he wants to try and nair again after being hit by utilt/usmash (they're pretty much guaranteed at lower percents). He can either attack again, or try to retreat.

Given his VERY slow aerial mobility, most Luigi players will choose to try and steamroll through. You'll prolly see a lot more nair, but some may get desperate and try dair. What you need to do is keep tapping him from below. Tipper pretty much everything. Get too deep, and you're gonna get naired. Tag him with the end of moves as much as possible, to reduce recovery time.

Follow his DI, and uair the hell out of him. Doc's like cf in that, if he tippers Luigi with uair, Luigi can't really do much about it aside from DI. End combos with nair, maybe bair or a smash, if you magically get them low.

Comboing Luigi is different. He's so slow in the air that the game becomes "follow under him and tipper with launchers repeatedly". If you suspect a nair and you're too low to reset, just shieldgrab that ****. It DOES have disadvantages.

Also, if you KNOW he's going to nair at higher percents, back off and give him breathing room. Let the move come out, and then smack him upside the head with fair. Pretty great stuff.

And all this is WITHOUT Doc's (imo) great edge game.

Seriously, watch for Green Missle. You cape one of those, and he's probably dead. Cape a misfire, and you're not only guaranteed a stock (unless he misfires again. D: ), but will find yourself getting some kind of badge or something for it. Personally, when I smell misfire, I just go to where he's gonna land, and wait. Misfire>HUGE LANDING LAG xx DAMAAAAAAAGE!

Bair can stop him pretty easily, too.

Really, the only thing Luigi's recovery has is the ability to spit out a billion aerials (most of which you can actually outspace with fair/bair) and misfire. Unfortunately, in CO, Luigi's misfire seems to be a 1/3 chance. Sometimes a 1/1. Our Luigi player combos into misfire pretty reliably. I dunno if he's the luckiest guy ever, or what, but it hurts my feelings when he misfires to make a comeback. =(

The thing with this match is that you have to play INCREDIBLY safe, and INCREDIBLY gay.

Do NOT commit to anything, unless you're pretty much guaranteed to not be punished. Luigi WILL come sliding in, and you WILL eat a combo that makes you lose the CC ability that I think makes this match so bearable.

Seriously, that CC is a godsend. When you kill Luigi and you're sittin' at less than 100%, you should normally be able to get 40% wracked up on him before you die. Once you have that lead, it becomes a MASSIVE uphill battle for Luigi (a lot of characters, actually).

What you end up doing is trading hits willingly. CC any ground moves, and retaliate. By the time he can break your CC, he'll be at kill percents, and you can start the cycle again. Just watch out for grabs, and keep your defense on point. If he gets a combo, it pretty much resets this cycle of gay, so keep him hitting light, punish him for anything that could net him anything.

Beat grab by sh nair
dtilt/jab with cc dsmash
dsmash with cc dsmash
ftilt/dsmash/fsmash his usmash but don't CC it
usmash/utilt/shieldgrab nair
sh nair anything else that moves
and jab his fireballs, then start your own pill set-ups

These are the basics of fighting him

Oh, and ftilt footsies, but those are a little more advanced, and harder to explain. Pretty much, you kinda want to zone Luigi. On stages like BF, try to stay under the corner of platforms. I like to keep my back to the edge of the stage, with Doc underneath the outside corner of whatever platform. You can FH pill to get him if he comes from above (change the timing for tight pill bounce pattern lulz), sh the pill under the platform to cut down his approach options from below, or standing pill. Make SURE you do empty SHs sometimes, so that they're always guessing about how to dodge/stop your bs.

Jab is good, too. Has HUGE range, and good priority. Beats Luigi before he beats you, most the time.

I made it sound like Doc ***** Luigi, but I still feel like it's slightly in Luigi's favor. If you refuse to play REALLY gay zoning games/do bizarre combos, then Luigi can and will walk all over Doc. You can't give this stupid guy any leeway, or else you'll find yourself sittin' pretty on a fresh 60% damage, compliments of your local gay plumber. Or you'll be dead.

That and how gay misfire is. You have NO idea how happy it makes me, seeing that move get knee'd.

Maybe I should just nair...

People be sleeping on Luigi. He's really good.

EDIT: ALMOST FORGOT!

di BEHIND Luigi when he's comboing you. It makes it a LOT harder (or impossible) for him to follow up. I didn't start doing this until I smoked our Luigi up and he told me it, but it seriously cramps Luigi's style. He can do combos still, but they don't hurt as much, and rarely end with you being ****ed off the stage. Also, you can play DI games by DIing away from him later, and botching up his backward DI reset (not that he has many).

Do it, seriously.

THE MORE YOU KNOW!

EDIT:

Keep in mind, I just woke up. Most my info should be on point, but there may be an instance or two of me not thinking clearly.

I do hate fighting Luigi.
 

ArcNatural

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I just want to point out that Luigi's wavedash IS good it's a staple in his game. And that the lag on the wavedash is only 10 frames just like every other character. He slides for a lot longer than 10 frames, meaning if he is sliding towards you, unless you can react to the initial part of the wavedash he is out of lag.

Honestly haven't you ever seen Luigi do stuff like wavedash turn during dash jab as they slide past you? I'm not saying some of your tactics for it are reasonable (especially if they don't change up what they do out of the wavedash), but CCing or shffl nairing wouldn't work if the Luigi was adaptable.
 

otg

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I'm not reading that super long post cause its super long and probably full of stuff I don't care about, but Dair-> nair works on Doc at 0%. The nair comes out fast enough to catch him before he goes flying.

And also, as Arc already stated, Luigi's WD is super good.
 

Desh

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Yeah, its good because its fast and covers distance, but hes right in saying that luigi commits to that movement, wich isn't luigis best option for approach against most characters, doc included, because docs ftilt has a lot of range and can pretty much poke him away lol.

But for movement purposes and speed, and tech chasing, etc.
luigis wd is good. You just have to be careful XD
 

Pakman

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I haven't played a doc in a while so this info is pretty dated.

As a Luigi main, my biggest issue with doc is his pill and platform game. Luigi blows when it comes to vertical movement. Stay above or below him and usually your high priority attacks will work pretty well. Doc makes you space and time things well or get punished. Luigi's recovery gets cape ***** pretty frequently. Doc's CC game is pretty annoying too.

I will elaborate later.
 

InterimOfZeal

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I just want to point out that Luigi's wavedash IS good it's a staple in his game. And that the lag on the wavedash is only 10 frames just like every other character. He slides for a lot longer than 10 frames, meaning if he is sliding towards you, unless you can react to the initial part of the wavedash he is out of lag.
But he still commits to that movement. All you need is to stick a high-priority move where he's going to be, and he has to choose between blocking or getting hit.

Honestly haven't you ever seen Luigi do stuff like wavedash turn during dash jab as they slide past you? I'm not saying some of your tactics for it are reasonable (especially if they don't change up what they do out of the wavedash), but CCing or shffl nairing wouldn't work if the Luigi was adaptable.
Yes. Been through the subject of CO's Luigi's credibility. If you SH a nair after he commits, but before he attacks, then it doesn't matter what side he's trying to hit from. The hitbox will be there before him, and he'll have to deal with it. Luigi could wd usmash, but that's pretty easily avoided by just doing empty sh grab shenanigans.

I'm not saying that CC+nair shuts down Luigi completely. Just that it makes it harder for him. You still have to vary your zoning tactics. Pill, ftilt, random capes, jabs, etc...

Doc has tools to fight Luigi, is all I'm sayin'. Well, I guess I'm saying what they are, too, but yeaaaaaaaaah...

I wanna play me some Melee right now. D:
 

ArcNatural

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But he still commits to that movement. All you need is to stick a high-priority move where he's going to be, and he has to choose between blocking or getting hit.
Like I said, it's not your advice wasn't good, I just felt you were oversimplifying greatly how easy it is to prevent Luigi from wavedashing in on you.

But here is an example right there, if he can block, why can't he just sh fair during the wavedash? That beats pretty much any shffl doc has, providing that he was far enough away to get out of the lag of the initial part of the wavedash.
 

InterimOfZeal

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Like I said, it's not your advice wasn't good, I just felt you were oversimplifying greatly how easy it is to prevent Luigi from wavedashing in on you.

But here is an example right there, if he can block, why can't he just sh fair during the wavedash? That beats pretty much any shffl doc has, providing that he was far enough away to get out of the lag of the initial part of the wavedash.
Doc shouldn't be shing a nair if Luigi is far enough away to do that. He should be doing pill set-ups. :D

EDIT: Also, if Luigi SHs fair, doc can just stay on the ground and get a free uair/tilt/smash
 

VGmasta

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Luigi overpowers Doc in aerial attacks. But he is so floaty. So the pill throw is gonna be top priority. If he jumps in the air, just space yourself away and staircase pills to force him into you. The only thing Luigi has left in his arsenal after pill throwing is his long range wavedash attacks. Shieldgrabbing his aerials can be a challenge because of the automatic spacing his aerials have, def. his D-air. But for the most part the pill setups are gonna be your best friend against Luigi, although it may be a more long/campy/"boring" match.

And I know his side-B recovery can be caped, but I don't like to chance mis-caping it in case he gets that lucky misfire. I just spam B-airs or wait for him to fire pass me and punish accordingly.

I haven't played or seen a lot of Luigi vs Doc matchups but I would think that you just need to spot dodge if you expect him to wavedash at you. He can only tilt, smash, or grab; all which are easy to spot dodge. He has a dash attack that can throw off your spot dodging game, but his dash attack is GARBAGE- easy to punish and low damaging.
 

Shroomed

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you guys' posts are too long im not even reading them lol

luigi is tough but ***** once he's offstage

cept smart luigi's who upB backwards so if u do cape them they're fine
 

TemPesT-

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i haven't tested this, but doesn't doc's cape give boost to ppl using their upb's...so if a luigi did it reverse and you cape him, he'll go upwards even higher...if so, shouldn't that be a free dsmash or something?
 

unknown522

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What. Ninja, you keep tellin me how doc is a terrible character, and you always agreed with me back in the day when I told people the best way to get good with doc is to move the icon down.

You must be thinkin of your character. >.>

FLIP IT NINJA!
lol, falco

i haven't tested this, but doesn't doc's cape give boost to ppl using their upb's...so if a luigi did it reverse and you cape him, he'll go upwards even higher...if so, shouldn't that be a free dsmash or something?
yes it will. I've done this many times, or I just leave them to die.

you guys' posts are too long im not even reading them lol

luigi is tough but ***** once he's offstage

cept smart luigi's who upB backwards so if u do cape them they're fine
B-air is a lot better, unless they missle at you.
 

Desh

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I bair missfires.
true story.
I has proofs too.
where you at.

Also, i'd quote KK and say QFT, but,
I'm already typing this so **** that
 

ssbbFICTION

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Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
2,535
uthrow fair after 100

backthrow any percent? lol

dthrow to fair at like 200 XD

dthrow to other stuff at like 150 i think.
 
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