Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[KirbyKaze]

I dunno if bair/cape are always the right way to go edgeguarding shiek with doc. My approach has always been not chasing her off the edge or trying to interrupt her recovery, but predicting, more or less, where the player's DIing her to appear out of poof, waiting there with an Fsmash or charging with a fair. If you can read the player well this can work out beautifully. Of course, you need the shiek to be in somewhat desperate straights and have to take it slow to keep your options open. Throwing pills to fux with her DJ's and recovery options really helps to make a player nervous and make them poof either A) prematurely or B) to the wrong (read: "right") place. All you need to do is be ready and quick enough to punish.

Cape, of course, falls in here if the shiek is gonna do something dumb like poof above the ledge where she can be caped after invincibility, but my point is that an emphasis on fuxing with shiek AFTER she Up-b's has worked much better than trying to leap off the stage and gimp like most characters.

I think I remember hearing Smashmac talk about this, too, which is where I got the idea.

*slams face into keyboard*

You missed my point.

I was going over Mario and Doc's pros and cons in the matchup, because I feel that Mario is better in the matchup. I said that, typically, Doc's gimping and edgeguarding is superior to Mario's because of his low trajectory Bair and larger Cape hitbox. This is generally considered an advantage of Doc's, when comparing the two, and is usually relevant in other matchups.

But because of Sheik's unique recovery, this gimping ability is nullified because she's going to land on the stage anyways. And then you hit her back off. I never said it was a good idea to do so (Bair or Cape), in fact I implied it was a bad idea because of her invincibility.

From there, we have to compare onstage edgeguarding, and - I feel - they do the job about the same. Doc perhaps slightly better, but barely.

So where Doc usually has a large advantage over Mario (edgeguarding / gimping), in the context of their vs Sheik game, Mario's edgeguarding / gimping is almost the same quality.

This, combined with Mario's pointedly better onstage game because of the reasons Dogy and Shroomed already listed (F-smash having range to beat her moves, better U-tilt, better Uair for comboing her), it makes sense that if Mario is even or better than Doc in every aspect in the matchup, Mario would be slightly better against Sheik.

That was the point I was making.

 

[Desh]

Lol spruce thats the proper way to edge gaurd most people.
Just force them on the stage, then hit them back off.
Until they cant reach the stage. >_>

edit:
but yeah, just cuz no one mentioned why trying to gimp sheik is a bad idea...
see how many times you can jump off the ledge and fair w/ sheik, and still be able to recover...
now see what wins, sheiks fair vs docs bair... ...

...

...
...................
yeah.

 

[KirbyKaze]

oopsies

10chars

 

[Desh]

you're evil.
So evil.
I heard your controller is freaking awesome.
D:
I wanna test it out.

Also, ima cg all your characters sooooo bad next time I see you D:
Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge Revenge
lmao XD <3

edit: except your marth...and peach... -_- and kirby(lol) ... and stuff.

 

[Shroomed]

Sheik is mario's *****

He has such beautiful combos on her that only require l cancelling

 

[Desh]

I just like chain grabbing.

 

[Scidadle]

Guys.

I need help vs falcon.

What are some general tips like.

Gimping, recover, approaches, what do I do when he nairs stuff like that

 

[KirbyKaze]

you're evil.
So evil.
I heard your controller is freaking awesome.
D:
I wanna test it out.

I don't like it when other people use my controller. Andy and Adnan sort of just stumbled upon it and I'm bad at saying "no" to people, so I didn't take it from them immediately.

 

[Shroomed]

vs falcon's nair:

run away/shield it

or do what dogy said lambchops told him to do, run up so you can shield grab it

 

[Scidadle]

Hmm.
Okay thanks

 

[VGmasta]

Sheik is mario's *****

He has such beautiful combos on her that only require l cancelling

Sheik is annoying to match up against. Her tilts are too big and her aerials have big hitboxes. She has guaranteed combos that kill you no matter how welll you try to DI away from them!

 

[VGmasta]

Captain Falcon is a tough match up sense his combos **** doc mario and the knee is a huge threat at 60% or more! Those nairs are really tough to get around! Shieldgrabbing is the best you can hope for!

If I do land the grab, I punish him with a combo. The combo usually gets him off stage. Then it's cake from there. Just Bair and cape. If you gimp an opponent with a shieldgrab-backthrow-bair-cape combo, just laugh and keep on trucking. Don't feel bad about it all!

 

[Strong Badam]

hint against captain falcon: DI away during a combo. the best falcon's will upair for as long as possible before kneeing.

 

[unknown522]

Man werent you saying Doc/Falco was 30/70 a lil while ago? XD

But, na, Doc/Marth. I still think that's really 3/7 myself, but Im apparently the only person in existance that really believes that, maybe m2k would say the same (I dunno). Nobody else I talk to lets me say it's 3/7, they say I talk too much about "perfect matchup" theory for that to happen.

Which, I guess is kinda true (the whole "me thinking perfect theory" thing), but I still say Doc/Marth is doc's worst matchup.


....over?!?!

OVER-RATED?!?!

Is that what's hot in the streets up there? OVERrated doc? XD

I am the one who said that yes. I still personally think that falco ***** doc in the ***, but everyone else seems to think differently, so I'm probably wrong.

Also yeah, I find it funny that you're calling Doc overrated Unknown. lol, if anything most people in the community wouldl argue he's a low tier, or just ****ty overall.

Really?

I dont think me hyping him up in the Canadian Matchup Chart counts as him bein "overrated" lol. His matchups just really aren't as bad as you guys make them out to be, and I also feel that most of the listed matchups are heavily biased towards high/top tiers in the first place, so everything is skewed.

Maybe. The problem with how the matchups are debated in the chart's thread, no one talks about what the good characters can / will do to the mid / low tier characters and what the can do to get around them or counter them (Or if they can't get around it). They all talk about what the worse character can do, making it seem like the good characters can't avoid / counter / gay the lower tier characters.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmVPl...eature=related

XD

Dogy, where you at???

Smooth Criminal

 

[unknown522]

hint against captain falcon: DI away during a combo. the best falcon's will upair for as long as possible before kneeing.

This is true. It beats all of doc's moves while he's above falcon.

 

[Desh]

I thought everyone knew not to di INTO falcons combos? O_o lmao...

 

[Dogysamich]

Guys.

I need help vs falcon.

What are some general tips like.

Gimping, recover, approaches, what do I do when he nairs stuff like that

Gimps: bair him
recovery: dont get hit
approach: not really
his nair: Do stuff that involves not letting him space well (move/step in and u.tilt/ step in and upsmash/ step in and shield/ jump over and d.air/ jump forward and u.air)

___

STOP MAA****IN DOUBLE POSTING IN MY FACE RICKY!

I am the one who said that yes. I still personally think that falco ***** doc in the ***, but everyone else seems to think differently, so I'm probably wrong.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. And im not blowing that off, cause I still think Marth destroys doc infinitely worse than sheik (and falco), but nobody else lets me say that.

Who's to say who's right atm? Nobody. So if that's how you feel about it, that's how it is.

I MEAN ATLEAST YOU'RE NOT 18S OVER HERE SAYING LUIGI ***** DOC. ^_^

I thought everyone knew not to di INTO falcons combos? O_o lmao...

Im not going to lie. When Im near the ledge at a decent %, i'd rather DI into a u.air and make falcon jump for the knee instead of just DIing out and then getting edgehogged like a *****.

 

[otg]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. And im not blowing that off, cause I still think Marth destroys doc infinitely worse than sheik (and falco), but nobody else lets me say that.

I remember a certain samich master being quite adamant it was Falcon this time last year. What's changed since then? You didn't even include him in the list of gay matchups lol.

 

[Desh]

yeah dogy thats prolly the only exception.
That falls into the deciding wether to take the gauranteed death uair from sheik, or trying to di her fair i suppose.
But i mean in general, you shouldn't be DI'ing into any combos unless your trying to help someone make a combo video. =/

 

[KirbyKaze]

I remember a certain samich master being quite adamant it was Falcon this time last year. What's changed since then? You didn't even include him in the list of gay matchups lol.

He shield-grabbed Scar this one time and was like "ZOMG I KNOW WHAT TO DO NOW".

DI behind Sheik is sometimes advisable if the Sheik is horrible. They never think to Uair and try to U-smash and it will never connect so you won't die :D

 

[Dogysamich]

I remember a certain samich master being quite adamant it was Falcon this time last year. What's changed since then? You didn't even include him in the list of gay matchups lol.

I dont, that's me personally. ONCE AGAIN IT'S A CASE OF PEOPLE NOT READING.

I have always said that i personally have a hard time with capfal because i rarely play any.

But I always say that MARTH IS BY FAR DOC'S HARDEST MATCHUP. I just happen to have to play like, 12 marths every tourney I go to.

__

With marth, just look past the obvious "at some point and time you're going to have to make him guess wrong to get in to do something", which is the part that's talked about again and again.

1) If and when you land a grab, there usually isnt alot you can do to him. You normally have one guarenteed hit, then you have to make another read. With falcon (and sheik), normally when you get a grab, you have a chaingrab.

2) If and when you get marth off the stage, it's not like it's free at that point. He can actually defend himself very well. It's not impossible, but he's not helpless.

3) If he ever gets you off the stage, he can actually stop any recovery trick you can throw at him. I mean it's one thing that most people dont know how to edgeguard doc to begin with (a.k.a. just force him to up+b onto the stage), but so many marths try to do ledgehop d.air spikes when they've got a few better options.

__

With falcon, those 3 things dont exist.

Apparently what's really important, from what everybody good tells me, is that Doc has 0% setups on capfal.

I really dont buy into that too much atm, but I do believe that it's pretty important to note that capfal can be CGd from 0% to death, or if you want to be "realistic", 0% to off the stage.

__

SO YEAH OTG, GET YOUR STUFF RIGHT!!

Tryin to call people out on some nonsense. >.>

 

[unknown522]

STOP MAA****IN DOUBLE POSTING IN MY FACE RICKY!

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. And im not blowing that off, cause I still think Marth destroys doc infinitely worse than sheik (and falco), but nobody else lets me say that.

Who's to say who's right atm? Nobody. So if that's how you feel about it, that's how it is.

I MEAN ATLEAST YOU'RE NOT 18S OVER HERE SAYING LUIGI ***** DOC. ^_^

This is true. Thanks N***a. =P

Marth is horrible for doc. I think sheik is just as bad, but then again you can CG her on almost any level.

A good falcon is incredibly hard. His speed and u-air are ****. I beat cort's falcon at pound 3 for a dollar. Also, his marth in friendlies.

Play KK's sheik with doc. It's a *****.

 

[Desh]

Its not THAT bad. 8D
But its bad enough for me to think sheik is docs worst match up LOL XD
Once you're off the stage you're generally dead. =[
actually once he hits you ....

i should go work on my cg's.
=/

0-death on capfal sounds fun, but i never bother trying to cg him w/ dthrow at 55 or w.e the % is that it works.

ohya , tomorrows my birfdaaaayy 8D lmao

 

[unknown522]

Its not THAT bad. 8D
But its bad enough for me to think sheik is docs worst match up LOL XD
Once you're off the stage you're generally dead. =[
actually once he hits you ....

problem is, she won't get CG'd to death, but it's an awesome thing to have on sheik.

 

[Desh]

yeaahh thats true, but you can get her off the stage after(almost) every cg.
because right around 45% , uair> dsmash should connect depending on di, same with fsmash. then you start to edge gaurd her D:

another reason i should work on my cg's.

 

[unknown522]

yeah. That is correct.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Play KK's sheik with doc. It's a *****.

It's funny you say that because I largely have no idea what I'm doing in the matchup beyond aerials, needles, grab and D-smash.

 

[TresChikon]

It's funny you say that because I largely have no idea what I'm doing in the matchup beyond aerials, needles, grab and D-smash.

Isn't that ALL there is to Shiek?

 

[Gea]

Let's put it this way. Assuming the Marth knows the Doc matchup (rare) he's the hardest. Then I think it goes Falcon, Falco, Sheik, Fox. But almost always personal experiences override that anyways, so meh.

I actually don't feel like I have issues with Marth or Sheik, but find Falcon and the spacies much harder. I gotta work on my lockdown game.

 

[Desh]

Isn't that ALL there is to Shiek?

gonna assume you're joking.

I'm with gea,
except i'd say sheik and marth are the hardest (when they're not horrible and know the match up), THEN falcon and falco, and then it doesnt really matter.

Op

 

[JPOBS]

i find fox to be the easiest of the high tiers.

any grab = ****
any off stage situation = death

and he doesnt really combo doc either.

other than his general top tierness its alright

editL: hardest, i dont really play any great sheiks so im inclined to say marf :]

 

[unknown522]

Fox is a *****. I think I'm good at the matchup because I play Raynex on a regular basis.

 

[eighteenspikes]

wow wtf. ok top-tiers only b/c otherwise you guys will ignore my matchup lists because god forbid i claim a mid tier can have trouble with a mid tier *ROLLEYES*

IN ORDER it goes
< Hard --- Easy >
Sheik....Falco..........Fox...................................................Marth

I have reasons for this but don't really feel like listing them besides Marth because I fear for my account if I don't explain this for Dogy. I truly believe Marth is the only good high tier for doc, I would put it at 6/4 at the worst. At best it's favorable and IMO *prepares for ban* one of doc's best matchups in the top half of the tier list. Out of all those characters, Marth is the only one that is truly vulnerable once he is a) above you, or b) off the stage. I believe all other characters have many options in these two situations. These are both situations which doc can actually create vs Marth, allowing for some control over the match. Unlike the other top tiers, Marth's approaches do have openings which can potentially be exploited instead of the only option being to roll away like whenever a needle, laser, or space pet dair comes at you. Marth also has a much harder time killing Doc because his moves tend to kill high (marth gimps, but only out of grabs.... on spacies...). Unless you eat a random tipper or DI like a chump, marth should really have to work to kill you, as opposed to getting usmash/shine spiked, falco ground dair -> dair spike, or sheik n2g'ing you into a fair which leads into ledgedrop bair which is by far the easiest and most effective edgeguard against doc out of the entire cast. These things, among others, lead me to believe that Marth is doc's easiest Top Tier matchup. If I'm not banned by tomorrow I can elaborate some more.

 

[Desh]

Lol, doc should be dying against a good marth the second hes off the stage.
A good marth wont stand on the stage and hope you dont sweet spot the ledge.
He'll get on that ledge, and odds are, you wont be able to reach the stage, and if you do, you're going to get knocked off again. faaar. and you WONT make it back.

Also, when has marth been vulnerable against doc when he has those big things..err.. **** - OH. Disjointed hit boxes? jajaja.

His fair hits beneath him, his dair also hits beneath him, ****, he could probably get away with upb if he wanted to =/.

You can get a uair juggle on marth at best, and not in a percent range where he cant jump away from a fair/whatever you intend to try to kill him with.

Marth isnt that vulnerable vs doc off stage, since he can defend himself offstage with his massive bloody sword, and long vertical recovery@_@.

when did ledge hop bair > cape lol. Im pretty sure standing at the edge, knowing you have a pretty much gauranteed kill against doc if you have a cape is the easiest and most effective edge gaurd.

and if you want a universal edge gaurd thats just as good as ledge hop bair,

*ledge hog>punish*
-heavenly organ music starts playing-

Lmao, now i see why you think luigi is so bad XD


edit edit EEDDIIITT:

"Marth is the only one that is truly vulnerable once he is a) above you, or b) off the stage"

Wait, you ARE comparing him to the other 3 characters in top tier that can be cg'd / followed with a uair>dsmash right?
and the 2 of those 3 that are pretty much gauranteed a death by cape/bair? because firebird/fox and illusions have like 2 seconds of charging to hit them away...and they have very linear recovery ...wich can easily be predicted/caped/bair'd....

wait nvm, the guy with the big sword, and quick recovery that isnt easy to cape/bair is more vulnerable

 

[Shroomed]

i'd prefer to play against a fox the majority of the time

18spikes, marth is not the easiest to cape/bair lol

that's so hard cuz his sword can still hit u thru the stage n crap

 

[unknown522]

^ I agree with everything but marth being hard to cape. Marth is easy to cape as long as he doesn't hug the wall when he starts the up-b. Even then, you will still trade with him. Marth is generally easy to gay on the ledge with almost any character.

And yeah, I'd rather face a fox than a marth anyday, with any character.

 

[Desh]

Yeah, I guess, but spacing its tough sometimes, and the sword is long as **** so timing /spacing is a lot harder than spacies....and most characters you can cape.

18s, you gettin crzy.

 

[unknown522]

^ If it's hard, I must be good at it I guess.

Not to brag or anything.

 

[otg]

unknown == best doc.