Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Shroomed]

1st of all- UpB cancel to fair WORKS

2nd- I can def see fsmash working on falcons nair as I've used fsmash for some interesting things before and they've worked pretty well. Things like Marth ledgehopping nair, sheiks ledgehopping fair- given falcons poor priority nair I'm sure it would get ***** so long as you anticipate it well enough.

Seriously though upB cancel to fair

it works on sheik/marth cuz you can jus duck under it and fsmash

falcon's nair doesnt need hecka priority since it outranges EVERYTHING doc has
if you try to fsmash it, falcon will jus hit you and laugh at ur feeble attempt to outprioritize anything with doctor mario

 

[Dogysamich]

As if I ever played a good m2 lmao. Also, Fair pushes Icies away a large enough distance that they can't punish you if you space it right.

No, they cant punish the fair, but the lcancel gives them more than enough time to actually move in. You're not going to get enough one off unless you're looking to do a retreating fair. We all know how that goes with doc.

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

vs ics

alternate air pills and stand pills(get the tent ready i guess)

f-air then dsmash/fsmash rite after to approach, if you just f-air and they expect it theyll wavedash back and try to come back in with a smash

f-air alone works to, just be prepared hahaha

fthrow or dthrow to combo LOL if you can(splits them up) be careful if you grab nana hahah

 

[InterimOfZeal]

it works on sheik/marth cuz you can jus duck under it and fsmash

falcon's nair doesnt need hecka priority since it outranges EVERYTHING doc has
if you try to fsmash it, falcon will jus hit you and laugh at ur feeble attempt to outprioritize anything with doctor mario

But it's not disjointed. If he's hitting you, you can hit him, too. Fsmash his toes, son.

EDIT: Here's my super-long reply for you, dogy!

iNo, rite? That’s why I said we should drop it forever ago. I’ve seen KKK in person, so it’s not like I haven’t seen what Kirby can do. But seriously, you can’t even pretend the match-up is remotely near even for him. If the Peach sucks and the Kirby is amazing, yeah, he’ll win. Otherwise, no go. But yeah, that’s why I said it was a pointless discussion to have on these boards. That and the fact that there’s really nothing he has that he can use against her.
Except that, given the speed of smash, camping IS runaway. Or runaway is camping. Either or.

Traditional camping is called “zoning” in smash. If you wanna give me a difference between camping in smash and runaway in smash, I’d love to hear it. Well, not including ****ty Brawl. I’ve always defined camping in smash as runaway tactics, particularly after gaining a lead. GG, SF, and other traditional 2d fighters have different forms of camping/zoning/runaway, but given the mobility in Smash, camping needs to be mobile. No character has a moveset so good that they can stand in one place and spam kikou>s.fp to keep someone out and force them to approach at disadvantage. That’s part of what I like about Melee. Each match feels a little different. With SFIV in particular, I’ve noticed that almost every single match I win feels the same. As long as I do my zoning/rushdown right, I win. I mess it up, I get messed up. Very formulaic, and somewhat boring. Maybe that's just SFIV, though.


Smash's camping ISNT different from "traditional" camping, it's just worded differently because pretty much EVERYTHING thing is worded differently in smash. For what people say Fox does to win, run and shoot lasers; every other community calls that runaway, because that's what it is. That's not to say some people dont ACTUALLY do camping, which is actually using their lead to FORCE somebody to come through their defense. Both are 2 different strats, but for some reason it's all the same around here. It's not a big deal or anything, just something funny I noticed a long time ago.

With rolling, I’ve started just guessing and going for the tech-chase before they even do anything. Works well against predictable players, but I think if I hit up pro players with that mindset, it’ll be no good. Oh well, pill pressure it is.

I asked for someone not part of the elite 5 that beats Luigi. D:
Luigi vs Sheik is close. For Sheik, anyway.
Luigi can dtilt>whatever against a CC Kirby, or non? Still, Luigi works Jiggz hard, so I dunno how well a character with similar but worse mechanics would fair.
I did a nair>nair combo yesterday, Luigi style. It was tiiiiiiiight. And weird. Wtf melee.
I’ve been learning how to combo Luigi recently. It’s really all about staying below him and hitting him before he can get out dair. Or just grabbing him. Utilt/smash/air are all amazing. I still don’t know which moves aside from nair you can punish a good Luigi for. D:

I use up+b to combo break. 13% pls? Only problem is if you get baited. D:

Shame about going to EVO, though. Those guys are *****. I might be hitting up Devastation instead. :D!

EDIT2: I lost the quotes of your post. Oh well.

 

[Dogysamich]

EDIT: Here's my super-long reply for you, dogy!

.... >.> I feel like I seriously wasnt gone for a week, but rather that week was just compressed into the 15 hours of my saturday. XD

Except that, given the speed of smash, camping IS runaway. Or runaway is camping. Either or.

You realize that you just said a defense built around mobility is the same as a stationary defense, right? >.> And so a marth who is sitting in the same area with retreating fairs is the same as a marth who is literally running from, oh say, a doc and doing retreating fairs with room?

Traditional camping is called “zoning” in smash. If you wanna give me a difference between camping in smash and runaway in smash, I’d love to hear it. Well, not including ****ty Brawl.

A fox who is sitting in the middle of the stage shooting lasers to force an approach, work some advantage, and then land a hit = camping.

A fox who is retreating with lasers, constantly looking to get work his way out of a corner to continue to chip away with lasers = runaway.


That's not to say you cant switch tactics, that's how it generally works across the board. The difference with smash is since there's a ridiculously high time limit, most people opt to not run the clock because "it's cheap and gay", "it's lame", etc etc. It's not that people DONT complain about it in other communities, but it's perfectly reasonable in ANY OTHER GAME because the timelimit isnt absurd (and the competitive communities are built around winning, not winning while making a combo video)

I’ve always defined camping in smash as runaway tactics, particularly after gaining a lead. GG, SF, and other traditional 2d fighters have different forms of camping/zoning/runaway, but given the mobility in Smash, camping needs to be mobile.

It doesnt have to be; but one thing I will point out (or admit, however you want to look at it), is that because of how smash works, you actually can be mobile in camping; it depends on WHAT you're camping.

I know I just contradicted what my whole arguement, but keep on reading.

If somebody's camping the middle of the stage, they're not looking to leave there, and more than likely wont engage unless they're there. You can obviously do the same thing with platforms, ledges, walls, and other various random nonsense stuff in the game. The difference between those is that since you have more than one, you can choose which one you're going to.

Realistically, there's still camping or running away with those things.

If Peach is neutral on a platform, everybody with half a brain knows that d.smash is a completely viable option. So as long as you cant do anything to her (read: basically as long as you're not marth), she has alot of liberty to sit on that platform till you move. Even if the character on the ground is ICs, she's not really inclined to "runaway" from them, persay. (For the most part, she really couldnt if she wanted to).

Fox, on the other hand, can move back and forth on 3 platform stages pretty much at will. So he can actually run away from a character like ICs on platforms. However, if he's on a platform vs a character that cant beat his aerials, he's basically free to stand there until they move to a different position.

No character has a moveset so good that they can stand in one place and spam kikou>s.fp to keep someone out and force them to approach at disadvantage.

There's a reason why I say Marth is Doc's hardest matchup.

That’s part of what I like about Melee. Each match feels a little different. With SFIV in particular, I’ve noticed that almost every single match I win feels the same. As long as I do my zoning/rushdown right, I win. I mess it up, I get messed up. Very formulaic, and somewhat boring. Maybe that's just SFIV, though.

On a normal day, I'd say every fighting game is actually formulaic, but realistically smash has so many random variables that wind up leading to different results for the same actions. On a normal day, you call a tech with a doc fair and it winds up being a frame trap. The next time you try it you might be on YS and a flyguy passes through. Next time you might be on FoD and a platform pops up.

Smash's camping ISNT different from "traditional" camping, it's just worded differently because pretty much EVERYTHING thing is worded differently in smash.

-laughs hysterically-
Yeah, that's not the only thing worded differently in smash. Hell, ALOT of things are worded differently in smash. Over the years I've found that's one of the nuiances that have actually kept people from wanting to be part of the community. (One of those overall pointless arguements, like the fact that smash is a 2 button fighter)

Both are 2 different strats, but for some reason it's all the same around here. It's not a big deal or anything, just something funny I noticed a long time ago.

Yeah, in the grand scheme of things it's not a problem at all. It's just one of those things I notice and point out.

Luigi can dtilt>whatever against a CC Kirby, or non? Still, Luigi works Jiggz hard, so I dunno how well a character with similar but worse mechanics would fair.

Well here's the thing.

Kirby's d.tilt is longer than luigi's (by far), and as far as crouching goes, kirby ducks lower than jiggs (i think jiggs' normal crouch = kirby's look-animation crouch. Dont quote me on that).

Shame about going to EVO, though. Those guys are *****. I might be hitting up Devastation instead. :D!

I said in the event that I could go to one, I'd be more interested in going to EVO.
1) I'm probably not going to go to either.
2) The way things are looking now, it might be easier for me to get to EVO, but it'd probably be easier for me to STAY for Genesis. (I think i know some people who are driving to EVO, I KNOW I have relatives in Cali (not to mention Shroomed offered me housing a while ago, BET YOU FORGOT MAAF**KER!)

EDIT2: I lost the quotes of your post. Oh well.

-laughs-
It happens. XD

 

[Bullet Bill]

it works on sheik/marth cuz you can jus duck under it and fsmash

falcon's nair doesnt need hecka priority since it outranges EVERYTHING doc has
if you try to fsmash it, falcon will jus hit you and laugh at ur feeble attempt to outprioritize anything with doctor mario

no I didn't say duck under it did I? I have seriously fsmashed through both of those attacks- fact.

Falcons nair does need priority as so many things beat it, the range is good but you can most certainly fsmash a falcon nair- the only issue with the range is making sure you have the hitbox come out in time

Dogy- talking about ICs sheilding fair- they would have very little time to punish if it's not a sheildgrab, fair L cancelled is slowish for an l cancel but still quick enough to avoid stuff like WD in.

 

[otg]

Dogy- talking about ICs sheilding fair- they would have very little time to punish if it's not a sheildgrab, fair L cancelled is slowish for an l cancel but still quick enough to avoid stuff like WD in.

That's what im talking about. If they think they can rush in and grab you or something DSMASH THOSE *****S

 

[DRD]

This isn't strictly related to Doc, but I think it's interesting

Any of you, say you're playing on Corneria (maybe you counterpicked to it), and you find out that the opponent gets a big advantage down in the bottom right of the stage, and he waits there for you

What would you guys do, just run to the other end and lay your controller down or jump into a disadvantage? Pretend it's a tournament match.

I sort of had to face that, and I tried to sort of lure him out by running towards and back, and it worked a little because he started to jump up onto the platform. He eventually retreated again in which case I had to go down there and get him which ended up with me foolishly eating like 3 uairs

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Always just jump in anyways.. giving up is not an option

i've had a horrible experience like that in tourney with corneria. if you find yourself in a disadvantage to camping its most likely not your stage and you should avoid it next time around.

 

[Dogysamich]

Dogy- talking about ICs sheilding fair- they would have very little time to punish if it's not a sheildgrab, fair L cancelled is slowish for an l cancel but still quick enough to avoid stuff like WD in.

No, they cant punish the fair, but the lcancel gives them more than enough time to actually move in. You're not going to get enough one off unless you're looking to do a retreating fair. We all know how that goes with doc.

Do I need to say it again?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I forgot Marf can just spam kik... retreating fair. Oops. What a gay character.

Well here's the thing.

Kirby's d.tilt is longer than luigi's (by far), and as far as crouching goes, kirby ducks lower than jiggs (i think jiggs' normal crouch = kirby's look-animation crouch. Dont quote me on that).

Hrm... I dunno, then. I'll **** around with it against our Luigi and tell ya what stupid answers he comes up with. Can Kirby duck his fireball?

I said in the event that I could go to one, I'd be more interested in going to EVO.
1) I'm probably not going to go to either.
2) The way things are looking now, it might be easier for me to get to EVO, but it'd probably be easier for me to STAY for Genesis. (I think i know some people who are driving to EVO, I KNOW I have relatives in Cali (not to mention Shroomed offered me housing a while ago, BET YOU FORGOT MAAF**KER!)

Ah, aight. Well, if you end up magically goin' to Genesis, lemme know. Love to play/talk/all that crap.

 

[Bullet Bill]

Do I need to say it again?

they can move in afterwards but they will def get dsmashed or jabbed

 

[Dogysamich]

Not specifically, no. Moving in doesnt have to be the big commitment (read: wavedash)

 

[KirbyKaze]

ur silly

luigi vs kirbs isn't that bad it's just really, really boring and it's pretty optimal for neither of them to do anything except try to sit at better spacing and wait for the other to do something first. since luigi's projectile sucks balls and his wavedash slides him too far to be amazing for this, he doesn't really outcamp kirby really hard.

i used to do this matchup a lot with a few people although they weren't top level but they usually won because they'd stay at better position and i'd get aggressive and try to do bairs at them and then luigi priority would nom nom nom my moves.

just duck and d-tilt an assload. don't do aerials because his will win unless you're spaced and even then his might win anyways.

luigi wants to be just outside your d/f-tilt range so he can d-smash it and combo you with moves and hurt you.

 

[Shroomed]

no I didn't say duck under it did I? I have seriously fsmashed through both of those attacks- fact.

i'll buy the fsmashing a sheik's fair, but

you didnt fsmash THROUGH a marth's fair

one of three things must've happened:

you fsmashed his feet
you traded with his fair
you fsmashed b4 his fair came out

either way, a good marth will always **** u with his spacing

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol moves don't beat marth's sword

you can maybe go around / under it and hit his body before his sword arcs to protect him, but beyond a few projectiles his sword can eat pretty much anything you name

 

[St. Viers]

I dunno--marth's f-air doesn't have that long of range (compared to b-air, n-air)---I can see you f-smashing one that is a bit too close. If properly spaced, I have my doubts.


So yeah, I've realized that 80% of what's holding me back is simply not accounting for the time it takes to press a button (whether it be a or x, or sometimes L) when planning approaches and the like, as well as really small amounts of time I don't use (after throws for example), so I'm working on the nubby concept of not taking so long to press buttons/use moves. I feel pretty dumb XD

 

[KirbyKaze]

Learning how to do everything super fast out of a throw or move so you can follow accurately is, contrary to popular belief, harder than it looks when the pros do it.

Similarly, executing plans perfectly when you're thinking on your feet and making reasonable plans is hard as hell.

But you have to learn it. So keep trying.

 

[St. Viers]

Learning how to do everything super fast out of a throw or move so you can follow accurately is, contrary to popular belief, harder than it looks when the pros do it.

I know--it just happens that I play against someone who does it, and makes it look much easier than it is. (I hate pros >_>)

But you have to learn it. So keep trying.

I know, I know XD

 

[otg]

So I played a lil Doc last night (It's been awhile). Nair ***** spacies recoveries if you can call out how they will recover/which direction. If they try to illusion immediately after getting knocked out, jumping out with a Nair and just letting it linger will **** their **** up, and in the case of Falcon, I think nair out prioritizes his upB, so you can have it linger and than FF it into him if he tries to be tricky while still up and ****** his ****.

Regardless, it was something I've done before, but never thought that it would work as effectively as it did till I just went balls out with it.

 

[Bullet Bill]

i'll buy the fsmashing a sheik's fair, but

you didnt fsmash THROUGH a marth's fair

one of three things must've happened:

you fsmashed his feet
you traded with his fair
you fsmashed b4 his fair came out

either way, a good marth will always **** u with his spacing

I said NNNNNNNNair- and I most definately did fsmash through it. No I didn't hit the feet or anything like that I hit through it

 

[KirbyKaze]

I know--it just happens that I play against someone who does it, and makes it look much easier than it is. (I hate pros >_>)

I know, I know XD

I avoided this problem by playing Sheik but I take it you actually like Doc.

 

[St. Viers]

lol, I like shiek too, but yeah, I feel that doc's actually better than people think, and a big reason he does poorly is simply people not doing things right, consistently.

Also, the person I play against ***** shieks, marths, and spacies. I don't wanna be all fanboy, so I'm not gonna drop names in this thread. I'm sure people who've been paying attention to this whole thread know who I'm talking about.

 

[ranmaru]

This isn't strictly related to Doc, but I think it's interesting

Any of you, say you're playing on Corneria (maybe you counterpicked to it), and you find out that the opponent gets a big advantage down in the bottom right of the stage, and he waits there for you

What would you guys do, just run to the other end and lay your controller down or jump into a disadvantage? Pretend it's a tournament match.

I sort of had to face that, and I tried to sort of lure him out by running towards and back, and it worked a little because he started to jump up onto the platform. He eventually retreated again in which case I had to go down there and get him which ended up with me foolishly eating like 3 uairs

Yeah I'd wait and try to pill. I mean, if it was a serious match. Haha, if not, then I'd follow him and whatever happens happens.

Its funny now that I think of it. I wonder if I did what I did without being carefull, that I would have a better or worse result. Hmmm. :]

 

[InterimOfZeal]

So, nair is a godsend vs Luigi. It's still in his favour, but nair really helps a LOT in this match-up.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

im going to pakman's fest on the 13th, i'll see if I can play a ****load of matches with him to get that matchup he's a monster

 

[ranmaru]

I would be going to Pakman's fest as well, but I will be on the way to Pennsylvania at that time. Have fun. ;D

 

[otg]

lol, I like shiek too, but yeah, I feel that doc's actually better than people think, and a big reason he does poorly is simply people not doing things right, consistently.

Also, the person I play against ***** shieks, marths, and spacies. I don't wanna be all fanboy, so I'm not gonna drop names in this thread. I'm sure people who've been paying attention to this whole thread know who I'm talking about.

It's okay, I'll name drop for you. Your OBVIOUSLY *hint hint* talking about the best player in all of MA and chances are NE in general: SPIFE.

Get ***** KDJ. <-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Dogysamich]

lol, I like shiek too, but yeah, I feel that doc's actually better than people think, and a big reason he does poorly is simply people not doing things right, consistently.

I've been saying that for years. XD

 

[isthattim?]

sometimes i hate doc,
went to a tourney on the weekend where 80+% of people played marth,
but still i got knocked out by a jiggs in losers semis (lol)
speaking of nair i got loads of kills against jiggs with full hopped nair, it seemed to always connect with the strongest part as they're trying to float away, which coincidentally meant they're DIing straight out.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

speaking of nair

I do this too, works wonders if your playing sort of campy (which is always how I play against jiggs) funny to watch them go flying at 150%+ or so with a full strength nair

 

[JPOBS]

yea i hate doc sometimes too.

I used him as a secondary to cover my falco in matchups vs ice climbers, peach and jiggs cuz for the most part i HATE those matchups as bird....

but then i realized doc isnt exactly "the answer" for those matchups either, and they typically were really drawn out and i could never get efficient kills with doc.

so recently i switched my secondary to falcon and i like it so much more.

 

[St. Viers]

yea i hate doc sometimes too.

I used him as a secondary to cover my falco in matchups vs ice climbers, peach and jiggs cuz for the most part i HATE those matchups as bird....

but then i realized doc isnt exactly "the answer" for those matchups either, and they typically were really drawn out and i could never get efficient kills with doc.

Peach and Jiggz, I can see, trouble killing IC? It's not that much harder for doc than other people...

@otg: spife is pretty good. I think I played him in friendlies last MM I went to (either that or there were more excellent links than him and skler) Didn't talk to him though XD

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

spife is pretty crazy indeed

my mario maining friend played him in RoM pools, and I got to watch some of it, nice stuff

 

[JPOBS]

indeed, the "efficient kills" thing was more aimed at peach and jiggs.

icys are more of a lol-fest for me because its like, camping them is pointless cuz i get camped right back, and chaingrabs r fun! the whole time im just like "why do i feel like othing is happening"

meh

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

yea i hate doc sometimes too.

I used him as a secondary to cover my falco in matchups vs ice climbers, peach and jiggs cuz for the most part i HATE those matchups as bird....

but then i realized doc isnt exactly "the answer" for those matchups either, and they typically were really drawn out and i could never get efficient kills with doc.

so recently i switched my secondary to falcon and i like it so much more.

go fox yo LOL

also

shroomed and me talked awhile back and wondered how doc mains do in tournament

so ima ask

doc mains

how do you do usually do in tournament?, or recently? (who u beat, lose to w/e haha)

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

honestly not so good.. I can beat generic, good people that main tournament characters, but I can never seem to beat big names. And we have alot of big names here.

 

[anthony000]

I've been saying that for years. XD

I second third that notion.

 

[metashinryu]

i love most things that doc has,but i just get pissed when im edgeguarded-shinespiked-try a futile intent of other up+b-unnecesary shinsepiked-loop

in short i just hate docs recovery(oh and his slow *** combo speed compared to mario)

 

[St. Viers]

^^if you get shinespikes, just upB sooner, or recover from above the stage (proper DI is one of those things that so few people seem todo...)

sorry if that came across as arrogant