lol doc ***** ics. Just be spam fair. When they catch on and start sh bairing or utiilting out of it, space pills so you can fair in their shield lag of the pill. Ftilt is a pretty good poke too.
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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
isthattim?
Smash Ace
disclaimer: i've only ever played against one IC main, but he consistently wobbles the **** out off people in tourneys
personally i think doc ic's is pretty even, theres a lot doc can do to keep ic's away that outprioritises their wavedash->anysmashtheyfeellike nonsense, i personally don't use too many pills against them cos they can get past em too easy and they're **** hard to hit if they can wavedash well.
from about 85% a grab will kill you on most levels (don't know the exact number just going off memory) doc is apparently pretty hard to chaingrab though (just going off what i've been told) if you mash and jump it'll wreck a fair few combos
if they're predictable you dont even need to poke with f-tilt cos their range is so weak, you can just jab->d-smash, if you see that they love to approach with a WD->jab just crouch cancel that **** into a dsmash cos the next thing they're goin for is a grab
when you nair through their sheild crouch as soon as you hit the ground cos they're most likely goin for an autocancelled shbair and doc can just duck straight under that and dsmash away.
from about 100% i personally think popo is the easiest character to dthrow fair (without ever playing against most of the low-tiers in the right hands) if you can get rid of nana.
that being said i've never actually beat my friends IC's but the only person i've seen him get ***** by is CAO's peach
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
It's not an even match-up. Anyone that says that only plays scrub Luigis. Or likes lying.
That's tiiiiiiiiight.
anthony000
Smash Journeyman
So forward smashing falcon's nair is good. I'm not saying it's easy, but once you do it, it's really good. It's an anticipation thing. Learn to read the falcon you're playing, and then you can space a fsmash against their approach. Once again, not easy, but doable and well worth it.
Shroomed
Smash Master
what falcon player has such bad spacing that they're getting fsmashed outta nair?
im like 2000000% sure that should not work at all
doc's fsmash has terrible, terrible range
falcon's nair is as long if not longer than marth's fair
unless there's some weird ur fsmashing their hitbox or something iono
vids?
anthony000
Smash Journeyman
Oh well the one time I did it, it traded hits. Sorry for adding useless info to the board.
otg
Smash Master
You aren't the first person to propose it, although when it was mentioned before no one really discussed it. I would think if you anticipate a Nair coming in and you started the forward smash a second before he arrived at you it might trade hits, but flat out beat it? no.
eighteenspikes
Smash Master
god utilt is amazing
Shroomed
Smash Master
i never pulled it off lol, i was jus responding to what that anthony guy said
u-tilt has the most ridiculous priority
and it can kill at high percents cuz of the ******** horizontal knockback it can have =D
anyone know any tricks to deal with marths that are good at spacing?
u-tilt has the most ridiculous priority
and it can kill at high percents cuz of the ******** horizontal knockback it can have =D
anyone know any tricks to deal with marths that are good at spacing?
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
I'm still trying to get vids of my doc up. You'll see the magic of fsmash.
For vs Marth, pick Shiek. Seriously, Marth players that can space are a pain.
Or just pillcamp and sticky-walk.
The cool thing about marth is that for him to be as painful as possible, good spacing isn't just enough. In the air, his moves all take longer than doc's fastest aerial options (n-air, up-B). Let's look at marth's aerial attacks.
n-air: has some startup, has very one dimensional hitbox (no beautiful arc like the f-air), and takes time. If he autocancels the lag, it has to last the entire duration, giving you time to do something. If he l-cancels it w/o the autocancel, it has more lag than his f-air and up-air I believe. Also, because it has a very straight hitbox, you can come from under or above depending on where you are in relation to him.
up-air: It's range is short enough that you can f-air him through it, and you can come at him from under. Also, because of it's range, you can simply avoid it and punish. Be careful of them using it really close to the ground though--that hits further than you'd expect.
f-air: His primary approach, it's less than his optimal ground range (f/d-tilt range), but that's little comfort. You can cape it w/o much drawback (unlike the 2 aerials I mentioned above), or CC it, especially if they don't double f-air. If they do like to double f-air, you can interrupt them in the middle w/ up-B OOS, or perhaps even avoid it by WDing behind them OOS. Also, angling shield up always helps them mess up the l-cancel timing.
d-air: His easiest aerial to deal with--just beware them using it to techchase, punish you when you get up from the ground. It isn't as laggy as most people think, and has a pretty large (for melee) frame advantage if they hit you really close to the ground w/ it and l-cancel properly--it seems worse than falco's d-air. Also, it hits further behind him than in front, so watch out for that.
b-air: it begins low, which I admit I seem to forget. Again, it's cape-able, and CCable, so you can deal with it in air and on ground. However, if you get used to caping them, except them to start f-airing instead (or b-airing when you're in front of them), and hitting you anyways.
Basically, if they are spacing at marth's ideal range, you can DD away from their aerials, and if they are a bit close when they start, you can CC (or if you're in the air, trade hits using n-air--it comes out as fast as a jab). You can uptilt close n-airs and up-airs. Also, when they finally land, if you've been shielding, upB OOS is great at preventing grabbing (his best option when at less than optimal range).
By optimal range, I mean the range he can use to actually keep you out--his f-tilt, d-tilt, n-air, and dancing blade. Luckily, with these you can reset the situation by dashing away and doing something. Closer than this, and you can pretty much jab, upB, or sometimes even uptilt him and you'll be faster than his options (jab is faster than anything he has except maybe dancing blade). Try and keep him above you, as his defence against that is really only FFing n-airs or f-airs, which that close are pretty punishable. D-air takes too long, and up-air would be situational (you try punishing when he's already too close to the ground). Because of the longer time it takes for him to attack, spacing is only half the battle. He needs to time his attacks so that they hit at the right spacing. Meaning dashing at him and spotdodging, for example (although a poor one) is useful, because hypothetically, his best spacing move on ground is f-air (best coverage, as d-tilt gets you f-aired ^_^). Because of it's lag, if you run and shield/spotdodge, you can punish. Although not quite as easy as this example, that's the basic principal I have when messing w/ a Marths spacing.
When you get a grab in, remember that he an jump out of the CG really early, so I often find it better to simply (if near a ledge) toss him offstage, or (if under a platform) throw him up onto it. Grounded and above you are his suckiest position (also, if he's above you, you aren't above him, which sucks as doc).
Sorry for the long post, and I apologize in advance for incorrect information...I'm not that good, but I'm posting off of what I've noticed from playing marths that beat me (kdj, arc, and my friend darkcloud) as well as why I can beat "worse" marths (proverbs, boxman, and some of my slightly nubby friends)
EDIT: the fact that doc's jab is so fast is the reason why if you see a chance to use the dash attack to clash w/ marth, you should use it. because clash->jab is faster than marth.
isthattim?
Smash Ace
first off, pretty unusual to see a white wall of text in the doc boards 
secondly, i'm having trouble bairing captain falcon when he uses his up-b
is it possible to space it so he doesn't grab you with his initial hitbox or do you just have to suck it up and wait for it to disappear?
i'm letting cap'n crunch live to comically high percentages cos i keep messin up the bair
secondly, i'm having trouble bairing captain falcon when he uses his up-b
is it possible to space it so he doesn't grab you with his initial hitbox or do you just have to suck it up and wait for it to disappear?
i'm letting cap'n crunch live to comically high percentages cos i keep messin up the bair
metashinryu
Smash Ace
1)yeah,PUT EM ON GREEN WILLYA?first off, pretty unusual to see a white wall of text in the doc boards
secondly, i'm having trouble bairing captain falcon when he uses his up-b
is it possible to space it so he doesn't grab you with his initial hitbox or do you just have to suck it up and wait for it to disappear?
i'm letting cap'n crunch live to comically high percentages cos i keep messin up the bair
2)on earth or recovering? anyways just do you bair before hitting him and fast fall it,or just cape him and own a stock easily(doc and marios cape are cheap...)
you can chaingrab him a bit and fsmash or fulljump fair depending on% but you just want him offstage to gimp him
um, yeah, if you hit him w/ the b-air, he shouldn't grab you. Also, edge invisibility helps, of course. Trying to hit him slightly lower on his may help I guess, but I usually don't have a problem getting grabbed out of it >_>
And screw changing my font. I'm too lazy =P
And screw changing my font. I'm too lazy =P
otg
Smash Master
Falcon's upB has pretty **** good priority, not like in Smash 64 where it was pretty much ****ing broken, but still good. Pretty much here is a rule of thumb when dealing with Falcon's recovery:
Is he recovering low?
- Yes, hold the ledge and keep those invincibility frames than drop out with a bair. That's a dead bird.
- No, than stand at the edge of the stage/platform where he is recovering with your back turned as if you were to Bair him.
Now, is he UpBing close to the stage, or doing it from far away coming in?
- If he's close to the stage, there is a good likely hood that your bair might get eaten by his UpB, and if thats the case, just try to anticipate his travel and cape him. Cape isn't always guaranteed as Falcon's momentum might allow him to continue traveling towards the stage, but use that and continue to punish him after his landing lag.
- If he does upB from far away and is coming in with it, you don't really have to worry about UpB out prioritizing you, so Bair/nair/cape are all your friends
This is my sparknotes version of edgeguarding Falcon.... YAY.
Oh, one thing is since Falcon is such a big mofo, he is IMO one of the easiest characters in the game to Bob$, so don't be afraid to take one Bair, and turn it into like 16 lol.
List of easier characters IMO to Bob$:
Ganon*
Falcon*
Peach
Marth
DK
Link
Zelda
Bowser
m2
Roy
*These two are IMO the easiest in the game to pull it off on. I'm not implying that it's Hard to do it to other characters, just that since these characters tend to be much bigger than the others, it's very easy to follow up Bair's at any %. What does everyone else think?
Is he recovering low?
- Yes, hold the ledge and keep those invincibility frames than drop out with a bair. That's a dead bird.
- No, than stand at the edge of the stage/platform where he is recovering with your back turned as if you were to Bair him.
Now, is he UpBing close to the stage, or doing it from far away coming in?
- If he's close to the stage, there is a good likely hood that your bair might get eaten by his UpB, and if thats the case, just try to anticipate his travel and cape him. Cape isn't always guaranteed as Falcon's momentum might allow him to continue traveling towards the stage, but use that and continue to punish him after his landing lag.
- If he does upB from far away and is coming in with it, you don't really have to worry about UpB out prioritizing you, so Bair/nair/cape are all your friends
This is my sparknotes version of edgeguarding Falcon.... YAY.
Oh, one thing is since Falcon is such a big mofo, he is IMO one of the easiest characters in the game to Bob$, so don't be afraid to take one Bair, and turn it into like 16 lol.
List of easier characters IMO to Bob$:
Ganon*
Falcon*
Peach
Marth
DK
Link
Zelda
Bowser
m2
Roy
*These two are IMO the easiest in the game to pull it off on. I'm not implying that it's Hard to do it to other characters, just that since these characters tend to be much bigger than the others, it's very easy to follow up Bair's at any %. What does everyone else think?
otg
Smash Master
I'm just talking about chaining bairs together off the stage. Marth in that regard IS easy to do this too, but it might not make a difference in terms of trying for gimps as his Jump + UpB covers a lot of distance. I've Bob$ marth's off the stage before with like 3 bairs, only to have his upB reach the ledge before mine and edgehog me.
metashinryu
Smash Ace
ok back on edgeguarding topic i have a new strategy(maybe not for you,but just came to my mind)
on characters with sh¡tty up+b like falco,fox and ganondorf(yeah and falcon too T_T) you can dair to uair to up+b, or dair to bair to stage spike them on FD and some other stages
i didnt notice dair had such big priority,im using that for almost anything now XD
on characters with sh¡tty up+b like falco,fox and ganondorf(yeah and falcon too T_T) you can dair to uair to up+b, or dair to bair to stage spike them on FD and some other stages
i didnt notice dair had such big priority,im using that for almost anything now XD
metashinryu
Smash Ace
well hes easy to,you f*ck up his second jump and hes screwed if he tries to attack you with anything,his up+b is slow as hell,an he will be begging for you to let him come onstage XD
otg
Smash Master
I'm not talking about GIMPING. If we are talking about Gimping through bob$ than anyone can be on that list, in fact Falco/Falcon/Ganon would probably be at the top of that list.
I'm talking about chaining Bairs together off stage, big characters tend to get *****, particularly if they try to survival DI towards the stage allowing even MORE bairs lmao.
I'm talking about chaining Bairs together off stage, big characters tend to get *****, particularly if they try to survival DI towards the stage allowing even MORE bairs lmao.
metashinryu
Smash Ace
got a question,can mario also bob$ ? or is just doc,never cared to try it out...
Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
mario can do it but its harder imo, and nowhere near as awesome lol. his bair has more knockback
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Marth's nair takes the same amount of time as fair if l-canceled. It's just semi-bad against Doc especially up close and if the Doc stays somewhat grounded. Since he is so short. Retreating nairs and nairs on spotdodges are good though. My only suggestion is to roll more. So many Marth's try so hard to slowly space fairs against Doc that you can literally pre-emptive roll behind him and do something. As long as it's not predictable I think it's pretty good.
Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
rolling is indeed pretty good against marths.. usually doesn't get me punished if i throw it out sometimes out of being nervous 
soap
Smash Hero
every character can back air edgeguard....
metashinryu
Smash Ace
yeah i meant that soap
Shroomed
Smash Master
mario's bair has too much of a vertical knockback component to bob$ anyone
it sends them kinda up as well as bak
it sends them kinda up as well as bak
HOLY **** I AM BACK!
I will do an e3 write up sometime late2morrow 2day, since im gunna get up and go help run a tourney.
Gotta remember how to play some ****. XD
WWWWOOOOOOOOOOOO
I will do an e3 write up sometime late
Gotta remember how to play some ****. XD
WWWWOOOOOOOOOOOO
DRD
Smash Lord
Went to wato6 today
I did better than at wato5, in which I lost immediately, being 4-stocked repeatedly in first match and loser's bracket
I managed to snag one round offa Finch, and the other two rounds I managed to bring him down to one stock or so.
In losers I played Zoro who has a great Link, and I was surprised that I got him down to his last stock
I counterpicked Corneria and he went mewtwo for some reason lol
Anyway I ended up losing again but it was again a 1 stock v 1 stock match
I tried to consciously make use of jabs and tilts this time around, which I think is why I did a lot better
Now that I'm using them, I'm realizing how useful they are for so many things
I did better than at wato5, in which I lost immediately, being 4-stocked repeatedly in first match and loser's bracket
I managed to snag one round offa Finch, and the other two rounds I managed to bring him down to one stock or so.
In losers I played Zoro who has a great Link, and I was surprised that I got him down to his last stock
I counterpicked Corneria and he went mewtwo for some reason lol
Anyway I ended up losing again but it was again a 1 stock v 1 stock match
I tried to consciously make use of jabs and tilts this time around, which I think is why I did a lot better
Now that I'm using them, I'm realizing how useful they are for so many things
Aight, if you wanna see some e3 photos, click the logo.
2) Standing pill doesnt actually stop all their approaches, it just makes approaching harder for them to do. I actually know a way for ICs (and ALOT of characters) to get around doc's pills. Im obviously not going to say it cause well.... well some people just dont believe when I say "Im not an open book." XD
3) I dont know why you'd WANT to space f.airs on their shields. I mean if you can hit the bottom perfectly every time, feel free to try it. But lets see; double shields + 12frame l cancel = giving them plenty of chances to get in.
Yeah, m2? I mean, maybe dumb m2's who dont realize their up+b exists. XD
I think its so funny that I can literally tell a marth how to destroy a doc, and because it's not the cookie-cutter marth method, "it doesnt work".
Good job.
___
Went to a horribrawl tourney today to jank on some people, play melee/ggac/sf4.
.. Mad rusty at melee, and played on a laggy tv for a while. **** was still hilarious.
Gotta hit the stiiiiiiiiiiicks haaaaaaaaaaaard.
1) I like how you're trying to use my opinion about this as law, lol. XD
2) Standing pill doesnt actually stop all their approaches, it just makes approaching harder for them to do. I actually know a way for ICs (and ALOT of characters) to get around doc's pills. Im obviously not going to say it cause well.... well some people just dont believe when I say "Im not an open book." XD
3) I dont know why you'd WANT to space f.airs on their shields. I mean if you can hit the bottom perfectly every time, feel free to try it. But lets see; double shields + 12frame l cancel = giving them plenty of chances to get in.
Yeah, if Capfal wants to jump in that deep.
-laugh-
Yeah, m2? I mean, maybe dumb m2's who dont realize their up+b exists. XD
Basically.
I think its so funny that I can literally tell a marth how to destroy a doc, and because it's not the cookie-cutter marth method, "it doesnt work".
*pound*
Good job.
___
Went to a horribrawl tourney today to jank on some people, play melee/ggac/sf4.
.. Mad rusty at melee, and played on a laggy tv for a while. **** was still hilarious.
Gotta hit the stiiiiiiiiiiicks haaaaaaaaaaaard.
otg
Smash Master
As if I ever played a good m2 lmao. Also, Fair pushes Icies away a large enough distance that they can't punish you if you space it right.
Shroomed
Smash Master
Bullet Bill
Smash Master
1st of all- UpB cancel to fair WORKS
2nd- I can def see fsmash working on falcons nair as I've used fsmash for some interesting things before and they've worked pretty well. Things like Marth ledgehopping nair, sheiks ledgehopping fair- given falcons poor priority nair I'm sure it would get ***** so long as you anticipate it well enough.
Seriously though upB cancel to fair
2nd- I can def see fsmash working on falcons nair as I've used fsmash for some interesting things before and they've worked pretty well. Things like Marth ledgehopping nair, sheiks ledgehopping fair- given falcons poor priority nair I'm sure it would get ***** so long as you anticipate it well enough.
Seriously though upB cancel to fair