Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Vulcan55]

I just lose.

 

[Dogysamich]

icys are more of a lol-fest for me because its like, camping them is pointless cuz i get camped right back, and chaingrabs r fun! the whole time im just like "why do i feel like othing is happening"

What? You can camp the **** out of ICs. Platform camp them.

[potshot_at_zeal]
Wait excuse me, platform runaway.
[/potshot_at_zeal]

:D

But seriously, just stay on platforms. Ban FD and stay on platforms. Even in the event wobbling is legal, they both have to come up and catch you on a platform to be able to do anything to you. That's pretty hard for them to do (especially with nana's dumb ai)

go fox yo LOL

also

shroomed and me talked awhile back and wondered how doc mains do in tournament

so ima ask

doc mains

how do you do usually do in tournament?, or recently? (who u beat, lose to w/e haha)

LOOK AT THIS MAN. HE GETS PEOPLE TO COMMENTATE HIM CAUSE HE'S IN FINALS A FEW TIMES. NOW HE'S TYPING LIKE HE'S THAT MANGO KID. HE THINK'S HE'S SUPER MAN. XD

 

[Desh]

omg that honestly made me laugh XD
hmw is the ****. I had some fore breakfast 8D

 

[Shroomed]

more ppl should answer brandon's question lol

DOC DITTO MM'S AT GENESIS!!!!!!

get at me =D

 

[otg]

A.) I ****ing wish I could go out to Genesis, I'm pretty broke though, just started work, johns, johns w'e. I'll just have to come out to WC and play you mofos another time, I hope you'd house me or something

B.) tbh, I dont really use Doc in tourney or rather I'm not sure if it's in my best interest because I believe I perform better with my other characters. I could completely be ****ting myself when I say that, but do enjoy Doc quite a bit in teams. I've placed 3rd at lower level tournies, gotten dead last a few times, placed in the middle of bumble **** w'e. I dunno, I'm not so confident with him in high pressure situations because I feel other characters excel at what Doc does in better fashion.

/endtierwhorerant

C.) Dogy with some REAL TALK LOL. Get ***** Brandon, you r the **** though.

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

what? You Can Camp The **** Out Of Ics. Platform Camp Them.

[potshot_at_zeal]
Wait Excuse Me, Platform runaway.
[/potshot_at_zeal]

:d

But Seriously, Just Stay On Platforms. Ban Fd And Stay On Platforms. Even In The Event Wobbling Is Legal, They Both Have To Come Up And Catch You On A Platform To Be Able To Do Anything To You. That's Pretty Hard For Them To Do (especially With Nana's Dumb Ai)

look At This Man. He Gets People To Commentate Him Cause He's In Finals A Few Times. Now He's Typing Like He's That Mango Kid. He Think's He's Super Man. Xd

Get At Me Son!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[anthony000]

You know, I was thinking about this the other day, and the reason I think Doc is so underrated/ignored is because he does nothing GREAT, but just does a lot of things pretty well. His only truly bad area is his recovery (which hurts cuz it's such a big part of this game), but otherwise he ranges from solid to pretty good in other areas. I would do a break down in categories, but idk does anyone feel me on what I'm saying?

 

[Vulcan55]

Someone else said almost exactly that in the tier list thread a while ago.

Also, I am officially dropping Doctor Mario forever in favor of someone more top tier.
:C
Bye.

 

[Dogysamich]

Man I thought that was a sick joke, but here I am staring at master hand.

Yeah **** doc. XD

 

[St. Viers]

^^his recovery really isn't that bad, with proper DI, which is why IMO it's better than Roy's and Falco's.

How Doc should recover:

1. DI right. This means that even if you can't Smash DI, you are holding down/towards the stage w/ the control stick (Automatic Smash DI). Then you DI so that he's as high as possible without dying off the top. This means that if you know something won't kill you, it's better to DI more upwards rather than to the corner of the screen.

2. Tornado. This is really important, and if anyone can't do it, they need to practice it. It would be like thinking you could use fox w/o being to jump out of shine...a fundamental part of doc's game. If done properly, Doc gains almost an entire body in height, after the end of the move, and you can use it to start drifting towards the stage.

3. Drifting+2nd Jump This is the part of doc's recovery where he has some ability to mix things up. You want to drift towards the stage, but now you need to watch for your opponent's edgeguard options. If you are high up, throw some pills (but remember to keep drifting forwards). Now you have rising aerial, cape, upB, and directional airdodge left to get you back.

4. If you get hit out of it, repeat step 1. You'll last longer than you think if you DI edgeguards properly.

Important Notes
1. KNOW UP+B'S DISTANCE!!! That way, if you have to recover low, you can not get simply ledgehogged.

2. Learn to walltech. For those who don't now, it involves DIing (via SDI, ASDI, or simply regular DI) into the side of the stage, and teching. It helps you when dealing with people going for the spike, or on-stage punish for slightly missing sweetspot.

3. Up B has nice speed/priority. Using it early to prevent getting hit/stopping someone from grabbing the ledge on you can help. Doing this shouldn't be your commonplace tactic, but remember that it's useful.

 

[isthattim?]

every time i wall/ledge tech i seem to just drift up and away from the stage a body length or two, leading to an fsmash or whatever, it really doesn't help me recover. am i doing something wrong? should i be caping as soon as i tech?

 

[Dogysamich]

sounds like you're actually wall-tech-jumping instead of wall-teching.

So dont hold up/jump when you tech.

 

[Shroomed]

doc should NEVER, EVER, MOTHER****ING EVER WALLJUMP tech

it jus makes you die anyway, cuz u wont make it bak on the stage w/o getting hit with something really strong that will probably kill you

 

[doublejoint]

Link (13):
Pros:
1.) Can be chain grabbed
2.) Can be thrown to a kill move
3.) Easily bair his recovery
4.) Can be juggled

...

However, this fight is one of those fights that you just want to get Link off the stage and gimp him above anything else. The only way to safely gimp a Link is to bair his recovery.

ok i need a little more help than this =_=

 

[InterimOfZeal]

more ppl should answer brandon's question lol

DOC DITTO MM'S AT GENESIS!!!!!!

get at me =D

If'n I go, I'm down for it. **** has hit the fan hard in my life, though. D:

doc should NEVER, EVER, MOTHER****ING EVER WALLJUMP tech

it jus makes you die anyway, cuz u wont make it bak on the stage w/o getting hit with something really strong that will probably kill you

Actually, when fighting a Marth that likes to fsmash/dtilt too much, what I like to do sometimes is ledge-jump the tech, say something along the lines of "****" when it happens, then PTP and up-b to snag the edge/land on the stage. Works wonderfully. Good Marf players just ignore me and grab the ledge/fair/tipper me, though. So yeah, not abusable. Not useless, either.

EDIT: For Link, learn what arcs he recovers in, and then stick a bair there. If he's bomb-jumping, go up and slightly towards the stage in relevance to him and bair (or cape!). If he tethers, non-sweetspot, I drop with a nair/bair and come up with up-b as soon as possible. Can lead to pretty early kills, if he forgets to tech. If he tethers sweetspotted, I tend to just hold the edge and bair on reaction, though I mess that up sometimes.

You can also use pills to edgeguard. Don't forget that against Link and Samus. Tooooooo gooood.

 

[Dogysamich]

Ya know what I do against a marth who f.smashes and d.tilts for edgeguarding?

Sweet Spot Brawl Grip.

Done.

:D

 

[St. Viers]

^^but then they switch it up and grab the ledge when they see you drop, or d-air through the stage.

 

[Dogysamich]

We arent talkin about all that. We're talkin about when they f.smash and d.tilt for edgeguarding!

GET WITH THE PROGRAM.

 

[otg]

^^his recovery really isn't that bad, with proper DI, which is why IMO it's better than Roy's and Falco's.

How Doc should recover:

1. DI right. This means that even if you can't Smash DI, you are holding down/towards the stage w/ the control stick (Automatic Smash DI). Then you DI so that he's as high as possible without dying off the top. This means that if you know something won't kill you, it's better to DI more upwards rather than to the corner of the screen.

2. Tornado. This is really important, and if anyone can't do it, they need to practice it. It would be like thinking you could use fox w/o being to jump out of shine...a fundamental part of doc's game. If done properly, Doc gains almost an entire body in height, after the end of the move, and you can use it to start drifting towards the stage.

3. Drifting+2nd Jump This is the part of doc's recovery where he has some ability to mix things up. You want to drift towards the stage, but now you need to watch for your opponent's edgeguard options. If you are high up, throw some pills (but remember to keep drifting forwards). Now you have rising aerial, cape, upB, and directional airdodge left to get you back.

4. If you get hit out of it, repeat step 1. You'll last longer than you think if you DI edgeguards properly.

Important Notes
1. KNOW UP+B'S DISTANCE!!! That way, if you have to recover low, you can not get simply ledgehogged.

2. Learn to walltech. For those who don't now, it involves DIing (via SDI, ASDI, or simply regular DI) into the side of the stage, and teching. It helps you when dealing with people going for the spike, or on-stage punish for slightly missing sweetspot.

3. Up B has nice speed/priority. Using it early to prevent getting hit/stopping someone from grabbing the ledge on you can help. Doing this shouldn't be your commonplace tactic, but remember that it's useful.

I totally agree, Doc's recovery is much better than people give it credit for, but it's by no means good (than again, a majority of recoveries in Melee are down right awful and exploitable). If Doc is knocked off stage in at a straight trajectory or you **** up DI (Don't DI in time etc), he can't make it back against anyone competent at pretty much any %. DIing properly is IMO THE most important tactic to staying alive.

Good **** though, I'm going to put this in the OP so people have good advice to look at.

doc should NEVER, EVER, MOTHER****ING EVER WALLJUMP tech

it jus makes you die anyway, cuz u wont make it bak on the stage w/o getting hit with something really strong that will probably kill you

lol, so true. I tend to do this more than wall tech in general, I gotta work on it cause he's pretty much dead no matter what unless people have a good solution.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Wow... This thread has been dead for too long.

How do you beat Marth while high? Shiiiiiiiiiiit, let's get SOME discussion going. Also, dair>bair is pretty tight tricksies, as is dair on shield>waveland. We really need to approach with sh cape more when we expect them to shield. I seriously think that one of the best positions to be in is behind a shielding opponent.

 

[isthattim?]

isn't the problem with that approach they have enough time to turn around and do whatever they want before the lag from the cape is gone? i seem to remember always getting ***** by sheik whenever i try to cape anything other than fair

 

[Dogysamich]

lets see.

1) Doc's recovery ISNT good. The only thing good about it is that he can defend himself on recovery (and his defense is STILL short).

2) D.air -> b.air has been around for yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaars. It's awesome and all, but dont for get d.air -> u.air. Keep in mind that D.air->B.air / D.air->U.air / D.air->n.air all combo if you do the 2nd move at the right time

3) If you're going to SH Cape at somebody, you cant jump into them. (Read: You cant forward jump INTO them, you MUST neutral or backwards jump).

 

[SmashMac]

One thing I've noticed about Doc's recovery is despite the fact that it's not the greatest recovery in the game (and to some even may be one of the worst), just the fact that it requires such a session of recovery (moves that follow eachother in an order depending on the situation to recover) throws people off. I can not count how many times in tournament and out of tournament that I've pulled off the trickiest looking recoveries and made it back because my opponent decided to get off the edge from edgehogging to early due to misjudging my actual recovery. I think that point enough compensates for Doc's small recovery. Not to mention, usually, if you do everything right (as in st. viers post), usually the hardest part is the situational section, where depending on where the opponent is and what he's doing you'll then make your final decision on how to get back to the stage.

Basically I personally believe that if somebody has mastered all aspects of Doc's recovery (DI, PTP, drifting-session, cape-timing, bair-DI, sweetspotting, etc.) the mindset of Doc's recovery is bad becomes something else along the lines of "Doc's recovery is random but works if I do it right."

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Unless you play competent opponents. I told my friends how to edgeguard Doc because I'm not going to get any slack fighting top-level players. You should do the same. Tell them how to beat your character.

Also, to tech.

 

[Falcinho]

umm hes smashmac .... his bros are competent players uknow?

i think the good thing is that many people dont have a lot of experience vs doc
if you just do random **** like jumping somewhere they might go with late nairs (between spamming pills of course) they get frustrated for a moment =D

Same goes for his recovery

 

[otg]

Good post Smac, definitely agree. One thing though, is people don't realize that pretty much all you have to do is edgehog him and keep your invincibility frames. If Doc can't recover onto the stage, this limits his options DRASTICALLY, and allows the opponent to score a free hit on you if you are forced to UpB onto the stage.

 

[anthony000]

^^^truth. And dair>uair is my s**t. I like it after uthrow at low percents on fast fallers

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Dair>uair is tight, but I looooooooove the knockback from bair. Works well with nair at high percents, too.

umm hes smashmac .... his bros are competent players uknow?

i think the good thing is that many people dont have a lot of experience vs doc
if you just do random **** like jumping somewhere they might go with late nairs (between spamming pills of course) they get frustrated for a moment =D

Same goes for his recovery

From the vids, they're competent players that can't tech. D: D: D:

It's actually a baaaaaaaad thing, I think. Roy benefits from lack of match-up experience. Kirby benefits. Doc gets wrecked, because you get used to people not knowing how to fight them, you start playing riskier, and then you get slammed horribly by a good player that knows how to punish you tryin' stupid ****. Playing people that don't know how to fight him only ensures that you don't know how to fight as him. Roy and Kirby benefit because they have a snowball's chance against people that know how to fight them, so their only hope is for people to not know.

Just sayin'.

 

[isthattim?]

IMO good players will be fooled by your recovery options 2-4 times if you're lucky.
I don't think matchup experience against doc is that important because the only really strange things about playing doc are his mad sweetspot and cape and a few other minor things. not really as important as knowing how to SDI out of IC's chaingrabs or knowing jiggs's rest set ups or not CCing against peach or any of the other things that need to be known against other characters
all i'm trying to say is doc doesn't really have any amazing tactics/surprises that need to be studied up on to avoid them, or any real doc specific gimps that can win matches
( this doesn't include punishing his weak recovery).

I think people just complain about fighting doc because they don't have any good cookie cutter tactics that they've copied from M2K/scar/whoever.

/rant

 

[Vulcan55]

Everyone I don't play regularly, that I play, says Doc is really weird and that it's super hard to combo him. I've gotten all sorts of crazy edge-guards I never should have, too.

Also, I found out I can D-Smash out of WD a lot sooner than I had previously been doing.
I had fun with my Brothers Capfal on FD with that.

Also, Also, Is it weird that Doc is the "worst" character I play?

Also, Also, Also, hey! It's Shiz's brother.

 

[St. Viers]

isthattim: It isn't that his recovery is good. It's that if you DI right, you have options, which many chars outside the top (sheik and marth) don't. If they grab the ledge, you can pill. If they jump out, you can cape, n-air, use your second jump.

As a last resort, you can come from below, or airdodge on. He has enough options that it's more than "getting used" to his recovery. It isn't like fox, falco, falcon, where they have a pretty limited recovery. It's not great distance-wise, but you have options.

 

[Dogysamich]

So, im too lazy to quote posts, so I'm just gunna do kotaku style @ responses. Get @ me. I'm on the phone talk to jx, and just randomly spewing s**t as I go through the board.

GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUAH


@Smac: Well Im glad you play *******. :D Like, you know I'm kidding, but seriously. I wish I had people who'd do that for me. And then miss me. And just kill themselves. Cause I get mad that people hit me when I recover. It makes me cry at night.

@Zeal1: That's what im talkin about. Yayhuzz.

@Falcinho: I dunno. Have you seen shiz? He's pretty goody lookin. XD I dont put him and competence in the same sentence very often. (techs away from flordia) :D

@OTG: No see, that's the problem. Even when doc can make it on the stage, he's gunna get wrecked. Lack of options. If you cant airdodge onto the stage, it's lookin pretty grim.

@Anthony: Dont f**king censor dodge. Making me do work and s**t.

@Zeal2 - which technically is @Falcinho. Yeah, Nobody doc experience, there's like, 15 docs in the entire nation. Lets be real. I think there's more blazblue cabinets than doc mains in america.
2

@tim: last i checked, 2-4 simplifies to 1-2. As for matchup experience against doc, um, there are alot of way people can **** up doc that nobody knows. i.e. A lot of marth players dont know they can actually dash under doc's standing pills. Alot of doc's dont realize that stuff can go under their standing pills period. Alot of docs kinda dont realize that ganon can walk under FH pills. XD You get the point.
-Lets see, doc specific gimps. Yeah there's one, it's called grab the ledge. Highly technical. XD
-The cookie cutter comment is exactly right. Cause I dunno how many people (specifically marths) that i've told literally how to beat a doc, and they say "I cant do that, it's impossible." "I cant outspace doc, it's too hard", like they dont have a good 2 or 3 character lengths or anything. And yes, im jankin on jx while im on the phone with him. Yayhuzz.

@vulcan: Those people who say doc is "super hard to combo" probably also say that luigi is "impossible to combo." -glares at 18s-
-Also, you could just initial dash and d.smash sooner than you probably are doing in your wd.
-Also, also, that's shiz's oldest brother.
-Also, also, also.. also. also. also. also.

@Viers: Look, Falco has options. Falco can land on that platform, and he can ledge cancel it. If doc wants to land on the stage without hitting the r button, he's still getting edgeguarded. Look at it like this, atleast we're not Roy.

GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUAH

___

On another note, I went to a tourney today. It was pretty funny. I think some of my matches got recorded. I'm pretty sure I could convince some people that they were 06 matches. "What is this l-cheating and wavesliding you guys were talking."

GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUAH

edit: thought about this after the fact.

So, since toasty's down here, I played his ness. So I actually have some more of a clue on how to fight a ness, for anybody who cares.

 

[Strong Badam]

i always win with doctor mario.
but he's not a very good character.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I know how to fight Ness! We had a pretty good Ness main, back in the day.

Your game plan goes something like:

1) bthrow
2) win

I think, anyway.

jkjkjklololol

Doc has some gimps that CF and a few others have to get used to. Peach has to be careful when recovering lower, too. He's got a shine hidden in that bair, no joke.

But yeah, Luigi isn't too hard to combo, once you get used to it. I mean, he is, but isn't.

Also, DI backwards when Luigi is comboing you. I got that info outta SNS after he hit the water a liiiiiiiiittle too hard.

Also, also, also, also

Poor Iran. D:

i always win with doctor mario.
but he's not a very good character.

Shiiiiiiiiit, with a location like that, who wouldn't win with Doc?

 

[Strong Badam]

darkrain lived here until recently..... so ggs.
kc ***** man

 

[#HBC | Mac]

yo how beast is toasty's ness?

edit: so you can wavedash off most platforms and instantly bair and it'll auto cancel. Just something I thought was cool.

edit2: works with uair as well.

 

[otg]

Yedi get your *** up here and play me.

 

[eighteenspikes]

lets see.

1) Doc's recovery ISNT good. The only thing good about it is that he can defend himself on recovery (and his defense is STILL short).

2) D.air -> b.air has been around for yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaars. It's awesome and all, but dont for get d.air -> u.air. Keep in mind that D.air->B.air / D.air->U.air / D.air->n.air all combo if you do the 2nd move at the right time

3) If you're going to SH Cape at somebody, you cant jump into them. (Read: You cant forward jump INTO them, you MUST neutral or backwards jump).

omg dogy. i swear you exist solely to make posts i disagree with
1. docs recovery is AMAZING. I routinely live past 200 in tourney matches. People are just too afraid of that upb and my di is heavenly
2. dair is terrible imo :embarrass
3. huh? why? also you can't really cape high-tier shields because you still hang in the air while they get to use an amazing bair/dair oos. fox, falco, sheik, peach, cfal all bair, marth dairs, and you didn't even do any damage.
4. LUIGI IS IMPOSSIBLE TO COMBO

 

[toasty]

1. you must play people who are afraid to edgeguard properly that said...a GOOD Doc is relatively difficult to edgeguard...but that doesn't make his recovery inherently good. Make sense? It's like being **** with a low tier
2. dair is terrible? you'll learn how to apply it better one day XD
3. lol if you SH cape someone while jumping forward, you just turned them around putting them in the perfect position since your cape just put you on the side of them they are now facing, thanks to your cape

 

[InterimOfZeal]

darkrain lived here until recently..... so ggs.
kc ***** man

GGs. Also, Cactuar. GGs.

omg dogy. i swear you exist solely to make posts i disagree with
1. docs recovery is AMAZING. I routinely live past 200 in tourney matches. People are just too afraid of that upb and my di is heavenly
2. dair is terrible imo :embarrass
3. huh? why? also you can't really cape high-tier shields because you still hang in the air while they get to use an amazing bair/dair oos. fox, falco, sheik, peach, cfal all bair, marth dairs, and you didn't even do any damage.
4. LUIGI IS IMPOSSIBLE TO COMBO

I know I'm not dogy, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut:

1) Someone is doing something wrong with their edgeguarding. I live past 140 a good deal of time, but if it's Fox, all that ends up happening instead is jab>usmash/uair.
2) It's great for shield pressure, damage, combos, avoiding being comboed, and pretty much everything else. How can you hate it? Learn to l-cancel it, and learn to cross it up on shields. It eats those things. Yum.
3) Do runaway cape. Yeah, it's kinda pointless, but if you're running away anyway, why not, amirite?
4) Whuuuuuuut? I think this is sarcasm. Either that, or you don't play against Luigi enough. Dthrow>usmash at 0%. If he jumps instead, dthrow>tippered uair>uair. Utilt also *****. You just have to learn how to work around their moves. Treat him like a floaty, and play like you're CF without nair.

----

Also, I've been experimenting with upb canceling and caping recently. By that, I mean I ****** around last night because I was bored. I found a few interesting things that people may or may not already know.

1) Randomly, if you do uthrow>upb cancel (legit combo on FFers, btw), the upb will have almost no lag, which actually allows you to start a tech-chase. This is only for flash, however, since you can always just do a real combo for maddd damage instead. Still, if someone can figure out the near-lagless version, upb cancel OoS would actually be fairly menacing.
2) You know that one angle on FD where it's really hard to edgeguard properly? I can't explain it, but you can't cape them from it, or bair, or nair, or pill. All you can do is edgehog and wait for them to land on the stage.

Wellll, Doc can use reverse upb like Marth can, kinda. Since the hitbox is so HUGE, you can clean-hit spacies outta their recoveries, sweetspot/almost instantly sweetspot, and then bair or cape accordingly. This is pretty nice, and I think it's fairly flashy. The trick is hitting with just one coin. I haven't tested this on actual players yet, but I like it so far. I'll see how it fairs against Marth and whatnot.
3) I think the cape can act as a jab reset at any percent, but I was just ******* around vs computers last night, so I'm not sure.

4) m2's uthrow>confusion is a tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight combo.