Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Dogysamich]

DRD you live in FL that's why.

The only really good sheik that comes to mind doesnt play sheik, and that's speedn.

No, you gotta worry about how to deal with randomsmashmaster442 and his ability to multishine break your shield at will. XD

 

[St. Viers]

^^@KK--really, I thought DI away to n-air worked at higher percents >_> anywho, unlike most people, doc has things he can do against a shiek d-throwing him. If I don't di, I'm pretty sure I can n-air before your tilt/up-air hits me. Also, I do DI uptilt/up-airs =P

point is, it's not as bad =P

@jabbing when they aren't doing anything is bad--my comment was when they are dashing towards you ^_^

 

[DRD]

That's pretty accurate really

Mostly I've got spacies breathing down the back of my neck

 

[eighteenspikes]

docs recovery is only bad vs sheik. omg ledgedrop dj bair just destroys doc. nothing he can do. **** that ****

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

post above is truth. :/

marth can do that too, happens to me all the time. I guess anyone can do it but its annoying when its either one of those two.

 

[Dogysamich]

docs recovery is only bad vs sheik. omg ledgedrop dj bair just destroys doc. nothing he can do. **** that ****

Ya know, I could solve alot of my problems by asking you, and viers, and otg a simple question.

What the f**k do you guys call a successful recovery; recovering to the stage or recoveringo the stage and returning to a neutral state?

Because you really just said sheik can do what half of the cast can literally do to doc and destroy his recovery. I mean you do realize that m2 can do the same thing to doc, and loads of people inbetween. I mean if you want to be nitpicky, kirby can do it too. AND HE'S ON THE TOP 5 REMEMBER LOLOLOLOLOL!

 

[St. Viers]

To me, a successful recovery is touching the stage, and getting your jump back---so even if you get hit off again, you won't just die. Even better is when you grab the ledge, or return to neutral >_>

EDIT: it terms off annoying edgeguards, I don't mind shiek's b-air, as you can just DI that up, and it hits a bit up anyways. Kirby, marth, luigi, and doc are annoying though...

 

[Dogysamich]

Ah, that's where our difference comes in.

__

Look at it like this: what happens if, lets say, mario forces you off the stage at 0%. He makes you up+b ... lets say 9 times, onto the stage until you get to 200%, where he finally grabs you and b.throws you for a kill.

From what you just told me, you would say that you recovered successfully 9 times, inspite of the fact that you were never in a position to where you could make a move to give you an advantage.

From the way I look at it, you never successfully recovered. Sure you hit the stage, and sure you got your jump back, but Mario kept the advantage the entire time. There's no real difference between him taking 1 minute to kill you and marth doing it in 3 seconds; there was little-to-nothing you could do about it.

That's where the differences are coming from.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

If recovering is just about getting your jump back, than sheiks recovery isn't as punishable as we thought.

 

[otg]

So yeah, I think FoD is pretty good against spacies. *puts up flame shield*

 

[KirbyKaze]

^^@KK--really, I thought DI away to n-air worked at higher percents >_> anywho, unlike most people, doc has things he can do against a shiek d-throwing him. If I don't di, I'm pretty sure I can n-air before your tilt/up-air hits me. Also, I do DI uptilt/up-airs =P

I will repeat myself. Most Sheiks are ******** and don't know what to do at what percents.

Moving on, I can't D-throw Uair you if you DI away at high percent, but I can certainly Fair, and then your Doc recovery does all my work for me.

If I try to U-tilt you at percents when the second hit doesn't combo, or the first hit doesn't combo into an aerial, I deserve to be Naired. If you DI away from Uair, I'm pretty sure I can still follow with a Fair or another Uair unless you're at high percent. D-throw U-tilt works fine.

And, like I said, I agree that Doc's grab game per grab does more (chain grabs are too good) but Sheik's grab game is good against Doc, even if she lacks an instant-death chain grab or instant 50 damage or whatever, she can still manage just fine off simple combos and follows.

 

[Shroomed]

on what planet can doc nair outta sheik's free dthrow combo?

i wanna live there.

 

[otg]

on what planet can doc nair outta sheik's free dthrow combo?

i wanna live there.

I wanna live on WC so I can fight sloppy spacies who DI poorly

 

[KirbyKaze]

I want to live on a planet where Sheik has Fox's U-throw. And the ability to grab ducking Jigglypuff.

 

[otg]

I want to live on a planet where Sheik has Fox's U-throw. And the ability to grab ducking Jigglypuff.

Or imagine if Sheik had Doc's uthrow.... dear god

 

[KirbyKaze]

Basically I just want to be able to chain grab Fox, Falco, and Falcon from 0 - 50 with Sheik, combo U-throw into her U-tilts and Uairs unconditionally, and grab crouching Jigglypuff.

 

[otg]

Basically I just want to be able to chain grab Fox, Falco, and Falcon from 0 - 50 with Sheik, combo U-throw into her U-tilts and Uairs unconditionally, and grab crouching Jigglypuff.

That sounds fair to me

 

[Dogysamich]

I wanna live on WC so I can fight sloppy spacies who DI poorly

raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaape.

__

I wanna live on the planet where Doc can cancel his pills, f.air is 6 frames faster, and f**k it, lets give him a shine while we're at it.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

where Doc can cancel his pills

i know what i'm dreaming about tonight.




So i entered doubles at pakmans smashfest with a sheik, it was pretty a nice combination and i placed high for once. i usually team up with a fox/samus so it was definitely different. I took alot of advice from earlier on in this thread and it helped a bunch.. play safe, pill spam smart, and gimp a ton.

Although i always noticed.. you guys ever get 'ignored' whenever you are doc in doubles? it seems at times people would just plain run away from me and focus on my partner even if im blatantly chasing them. i know that's part team stragedy, but it might be cause doc is slow mobility-wise or something.

any logical explanation? i could see why, but i wanna hear your opinions.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't know why they'd do that, killing Doc sounds like it would make more sense. Dies off the side faster, gets gimped efficiently by back airs and edgehogging (and shine) rather than spending a year to edgeguard, dies off the top faster, has better teammate grab --> hit finishers (Fair + F-smash), and can't protect himself during recovery as well as Sheik can.

But they probably view you as harmless.

 

[Shroomed]

I wanna live on WC so I can fight sloppy spacies who DI poorly

if you come to genesis, i think you'd b suprised =D

 

[Dogysamich]

but it might be cause doc is slow mobility-wise or something.

he's not exactly slow. lol. His run speed isnt fast (it's not slow), but if you wavedash, you can actually outrun fox. Thing is, you have to know when to stop so you dont wavedash into an attack.

Now if you're talking about airspeed, you're pretty average.

 

[otg]

if you come to genesis, i think you'd b suprised =D

It's your backyard. For me it's a $2,000 investment. yeah ... about that.

 

[Dogysamich]

So, N64 is in macon (which is like, 20/30 min away from me) so I get to play him this summer. Yay.

I actually played a s**tton of Doc vs Pika yesterday, and learned some stuff about the matchup.

Ya know one thing I actually learned about it? I dont like it. XD I mean, it might not be so bad if I actually chaingrabbed him. (I didnt, because I would rather practice comboing, which i blow at, instead of chaingrabbing when i play some chillin-friendlies)

But needless to say, that matchup is different and I dont like it. It's different in that you realistically can (and to some degree have to) just sit there and swing, kinda like you're marth. You could think of it as like, a bootleg marth vs fox. He wants to get in and combo the **** out of you without getting hit and you have to just keep him out because you cant really run from him.

People say Pikachu is a low tier fox, and I still believe that. But now that I've played a good one since I've actually been smart about matchups, I have to say pika is a f**kin low-tier capfal as well. Jumps up and does pop-up u.air to moveset. XD And then pika's f.tilt. I swear that thing can stimulate the economy.

__

I dunno, that's just a lil "Dogy blog" i guess. If somebody actually wants me to write a matchup for it, I will. I keep saying im gunna start working on that matchup guide again and I keep lying to myself.

I wind up doing **** like playing Castle of Shikigami 3 (which im going to do now. That game is going to kill me)

Or I'm gunna wind up making a new sig. I already dont like this Alice sig (I think it was the attempt to add contrasting colors, it looked kool for like 5 minutes)

FML!

 

[Vulcan55]

"Dogy blog"

Now see, if your name was actually pronounced "Doggy", that would be funny.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

It'd be better if it was a "Doggy Bloggy".

I actually dropped Pika because of Mario v Pika. Pretty much sucks for Pika as soon as you start getting CGed/CCed. Like, haaaardcore. If Pika can avoid the grab, he can do pretty well, but he really has to play around it. If you're playing to win, just CG the rat, and you'll beat anyone not named n64/anther/that other guy that I really like, but always forget.

Also, Pika is the only low-tier I think that does really well against Luigi. I almost beat our Luigi in tourney with him once. Got misfired, though. D:

 

[N64]

good matches dogy.

I was getting wrecked heh.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bad space animals on WC is largely a myth.

I can't say I was super duper impressed with Lovage, but he certainly wasn't bad. Good enough to be on the Tri-State PR? Probably not, but certainly not bad. He seemed solid.

Zhu was really good.

Mango probably has best or second best Falco so I don't think he's a bad representative lol.

Hi N64.

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

west coast

get at us!!

 

[unknown522]

So yeah, I think FoD is pretty good against spacies. *puts up flame shield*

I agree. Yoshi's too.

i know what i'm dreaming about tonight.




So i entered doubles at pakmans smashfest with a sheik, it was pretty a nice combination and i placed high for once. i usually team up with a fox/samus so it was definitely different. I took alot of advice from earlier on in this thread and it helped a bunch.. play safe, pill spam smart, and gimp a ton.

Although i always noticed.. you guys ever get 'ignored' whenever you are doc in doubles? it seems at times people would just plain run away from me and focus on my partner even if im blatantly chasing them. i know that's part team stragedy, but it might be cause doc is slow mobility-wise or something.

any logical explanation? i could see why, but i wanna hear your opinions.

I used to use doc in teams with RaynEX. I had that same experience, but the reason for that seemed to be because they had more of a chance killing my teammate, than they did killing me. I used doc a lot in teams at pound 3 and georgia, and whenever we played vs a team, if I wasn't comboing / pressuring my opponent, they would try to double team my partner (silentwolf / DJ combo, colbol / QDVS, Plank / Chaddd [@ pound 3.] Hungrybox / Exarch, Chad / Iori [@ georgia]). Every team match where we lost, I would have died 1-3 times and/or have 4+ Kills in a lot of matches. We try hard not to let double teams happen and try to isolate our opponents, then help when needed (vs edgeguard, CGs or jigglypuff basically). But yeah, it takes really long to catch up to your opponents and with limited range, it is hard to get yourself involved. That is probably the main reasons that opponents run away from doc / lower tier characters. They may also be afraid to get gimped or combo'd.

In regional tourneys and friendlies, the opposing team usually tries to go after me if I'm doc. If I have a good teammate in friendlies (since I team with RaynEX in tourneys) then they will help me out.

Fighting against foxes and falcos in teams is a *****. Buttons + shine from fox keeps him out really well. Getting gimped is a ***** too.

Anyways, I go fox / falco in teams now. Doc sometimes vs awkward teams.





Edit: Waffles, WHERE YOU AT?!?!

 

[Vulcan55]

Which space animal are we talking about?
For Fox, I'd rather go FD, but for Falco, I'd rather go YS.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think they mean both.

 

[eighteenspikes]

wtf. the only char i would even MAAAAAYBE THINK of taking to fd would be marth. and that would ONLY be if he banned dl64 and yoshis was the random. yall crazy

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Doc is better against Fox on FD than he is on other stages. Chain grab, no platforms for him to go to and wait, and other stuff.

Or at least that's how it feels whenever I've done the matchup. Which is not a whole lot, but I much prefer the other neutrals when I do it as Fox...

 

[Stos]

Seriously I think Yoshis is the best stage against Fox & and yeah FD chain grab all ****in' dai n' night

 

[Vulcan55]

Everyone bans FD up here anyways, so I usually go Kirby 64.

 

[Shroomed]

i guess you guys dont know about brinstar yet

took mango's fox there =D

it was working out perfectly until i literally jumped off the stage at 0% and died
you dont make a comeback vs mango tho lol

 

[Vulcan55]

Joe told me to try Brinstar, but I can't stand that level for some reason.

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

i guess you guys dont know about brinstar yet

took mango's fox there =D

it was working out perfectly until i literally jumped off the stage at 0% and died
you dont make a comeback vs mango tho lol

LOL
Dogy did that as well one time
must be a Doc thing

 

[otg]

good matches dogy.

I was getting wrecked heh.

awwww you moved? I was thinking about moving to albany NY and was going to pester you to play me lol.

EDIT: FD has gotten banned at every tournament I've ever been to vs. spacies. FoD is solid, I do like Yoshi's (but Fox scares me there), I dislike PS vs. them, and DL is gravy. FD is overrated, Doc shouldn't be getting too many grabs vs. *Edit again* GOOD spacies, and I would say competent spacies will try to camp the **** out of you, so you are better off on a small stage so they can't do the run away game.