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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
To some degree, doc can do it too. Enders arent as solid as marios (since mario has an auto far option)
Hardly. I mean, if you looked at the specifc what vs what we played, you could say that, but if you looked at the overall, I think I got the business more than you did, really.
Sheik vs Peach. -rolls eyes- XD
Really just comes down to preference/criteria when it comes to non-neutrals. The way I see mango play, i'd actually take his *** to corneria. Maybe KJ64.
:/ Alot of people ban corneria vs me. Some ban FD. FD is the better choice (since it's neutral), but there are actually quite a few places you can go vs Spanimals.
Mute city. KJ64. used against 2 completely different playstyles, both actually have some advantages for doc. (I mean, if you want to look at chaingrabs alone, you can CG on Kj64, and it's rare that the middle platforms will mess you up.)
anthony000
Smash Journeyman
I love Mute City but the people I play with know that and always ban it against me. Personally I can't stand yoshi's story against spacies because I like having room to move and camp. I like FoD better. Dreamland 64 is the ****.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Yeah, that was kinda my look too.
I may not be a super Doc pro, but Mute City would be an absolute BALLS stage. Not ballin'. BALLS. Having no edges to grab when recovering=horribad for Doc. Nevermind that Doc doesn't get very far with his recovery to begin with, making landing on the platforms throughout the stage impossible.
****, I love Yoshi's Story against Space Animals tho'.
Smooth Criminal
anthony000
Smash Journeyman
Haha yeah I guess that would be confusing. I really gotta start thinking before I post. Um, there are sections of mute city where there is a lot of room. Plus I have to move constantly there anyway. And even though it doesn't have any edges to grab, that also forces the opponent to recover back onto the stage. Idk I feel like it kinda tips the scales ever so slightly in the recovery department because it forces everyone to recover to the same place (the stage). Like no, it doesn't help my recovery, but it also hurts my opponent's, and I like that. It makes edgeguarding a lot easier imo.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Doc gets his business done on Mute City. I love taking CF/Falco there, but I always forget about it. I'm hesitant with Fox, though, for some reason. I like taking Marf there, too.
I haven't really messed with Corneria much. Imma hafta do that.
Brinstar is cool, but it's very much an acquired taste.
Ummm... I love FD vs pretty much anyone without a great projectile game/not sheik.
I hate BF and YS vs Falcon. He can platform camp the hell outta you. It's even worse when you die to knees at 50% on YS, or can't recover on BF.
Also, I watched 2 HMW v Shroomed matches after a party, and that **** was soooooooo much more fun to watch. Not that I didn't like it before. Doc dittos are tiiiight.
But yeah, I took notes during it, and they both have some pretty nice xup set-ups. I'll post some of the stuff I noticed later, if people don't want to go and study it themselves. I love CA for posting vids so much, it really helps the metagame advance, even for us few Doc players.
Heyyyyy, who here thinks Doc has advantage vs Puff?
I haven't really messed with Corneria much. Imma hafta do that.
Brinstar is cool, but it's very much an acquired taste.
Ummm... I love FD vs pretty much anyone without a great projectile game/not sheik.
I hate BF and YS vs Falcon. He can platform camp the hell outta you. It's even worse when you die to knees at 50% on YS, or can't recover on BF.
Also, I watched 2 HMW v Shroomed matches after a party, and that **** was soooooooo much more fun to watch. Not that I didn't like it before. Doc dittos are tiiiight.
But yeah, I took notes during it, and they both have some pretty nice xup set-ups. I'll post some of the stuff I noticed later, if people don't want to go and study it themselves. I love CA for posting vids so much, it really helps the metagame advance, even for us few Doc players.
Heyyyyy, who here thinks Doc has advantage vs Puff?
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
My philosophy differs in regards to CPing. I almost always try to ban/pick a stage that is most advantageous to the character that I'm playing. When I play Sheik versus Falco, I make **** sure that I ban FD asap. This community calls it "Falco Destination" in certain matchups for a reason: Falco completely controls the stage. Because it is on a flat plane, there's nowhere for you to run from his laser game. The only thing that could ameliorate the problem while playing on this stage is 1) if you're good at powershielding, 2) If you can wd OoS and/or dash attack underneath said lasers, or 3) is if the Falco really sucks with his lasers. I'm not really good with these things yet and, on the whole, even in high level play it's tough to do.
Mute City with Doc (looking at it from your perspective for a moment) is kind of fifty-fifty. You're right when you say that most characters' (save Peach, Jiggs, and MAYBE Samus due to floatiness and bomb jumping) recoveries do not benefit from the nature of the stage. But do you really want to say the same for Doc? Do you really wanna pick a stage that says, "Yeah. Totally counterproductive to my recovery. Each time my opponent lands a combo with decent knockback at the end of it, I'm ****ed?"
o.O
Edit: I'm speaking from a shallow, shallow perspective here. So I'm going to ask you guys to sway my superficiality: Potential advantages Doc has on Mute City? And if so, at what points in the stage?
Smooth Criminal
anthony000
Smash Journeyman
I mean, I would never take Peach or Jiggs to mute city. Ever. You make good points and I guess that is kinda how I feel about the stage- the 50-50 part. Maybe I'm just over confident. In regards to your question, there are parts of the stage that are just like a mini FD (when you're on that floating platform) which means that you can chain grab with no interruption and then get the easy gimps I was talking about earlier. Like if your edge guarding is on point on mute city, you can get some ridiculously low percentage kills on that stage.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I used to feel the same way about Mute, until I realized if I just eat a road bounce and hold away from the middle platform, non-fast fallers with means to stall or high double jumps can simply decide to stall offstage until the stage transforms. I did this to Vwins at Starfurry, it really removed a lot of his edgeguarding KO potential on me at some points.
I realize that it means you wind up eating unnecessary damage, but the trade is that you actually recover in a neutral position sometimes. It's only "half" of the stage where there's no road to recover onto or when you're knocked off and can't make it without your Up+B that you have to worry about the lack of edges.
But that's just Mute City in a general sense.
I don't like it against Fox with non-Peach / Jigglypuff. I hate that when I get shined, I have to double jump + something to recover or I eat the road for however amount of damage, sometimes waiting out the transformation will require 2 bounces (and therefore a lot of percent), and (specifically referring to Doc) both of those usually result in more damage than whatever Fox would get on another stage (ie. a neutral).
Translation: "Hey Dogy, I talk trash about your doc all the time, but I never look at anything you do. I've never seen any of your vids on mute city. Ever. But Im going to beat your doc and your kirby with the same sheik that get annhilated at TO4, because there's no way you could get any better along with me getting better. There's no way you could learn how to Wheel of Fortune with doc."
I mean, Hi. :D
Ok, here is my criteria for mute city.Smooth Criminal said:
1) Am I playing a Spanimal or Falcon?
2) Did I lose to him because I couldnt catch him?
3) Did I get a ****ton of grabs, or could I get a ****ton of grabs.
4) Am I still going to try?
If I answered yes to all 4 of those, then Im liable to pick mute city.
Bad stuff can happen
4:43
Doc, by no stretch of the imagination, dominates Mute City or antyhing. If you know how to use it (read: you chaingrab like a ******), it's a good stage because most of the stage is flat.
otg
Smash Master
lmao, dogy you are so brutal on that stage it hurts.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
>_>
*grabs a Kleenex from somewhere and dabs at the tears forming in his eyes.*
That hurts.
You are right about one thing, though. I do need to look at your videos. I also need to magically move back up to GA so I can play you more often.
XD
Smooth Criminal
you dont have to watch me specifically. But yeah, you're talkin out your *** about mute city. 
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Hey, hey. I already covered my *** in an eloquent edit and cited my inexperience. That's just rubbing salt in the wound.you dont have to watch me specifically. But yeah, you're talkin out your *** about mute city.
I have a long way to go with Doc, tho'. I'll learn one of these days.
Smooth Criminal
One day. one day.
__
On a side note, so I've gone on a mission to learn how to combo better (again) with doc, so it's time to go hit up some capfal players.
Loads of fun.
__
On another side note, I loooooooove my new sig. I might actually keep this one for a while (or until I look at it like my last one and puke).
Whichever comes first.
Or until I get bored and default back to the Doc sig.
Or until I decide to use this one on another forum.
Whichever happens first.
__
On a side note, so I've gone on a mission to learn how to combo better (again) with doc, so it's time to go hit up some capfal players.
Loads of fun.
__
On another side note, I loooooooove my new sig. I might actually keep this one for a while (or until I look at it like my last one and puke).
Whichever comes first.
Or until I get bored and default back to the Doc sig.
Or until I decide to use this one on another forum.
Whichever happens first.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
man i was usin doc today at a smashfest & it was fun.
but i was losing
so i used fox
and started winning
this game is kinda lame.
but i was losing
so i used fox
and started winning
this game is kinda lame.
otg
Smash Master
Fox is fun!!
(>.>) (<.<) Right Waffles? (<.<) (>.>)
(>.>) (<.<) Right Waffles? (<.<) (>.>)
^^not waffles, but I agree. I just have the opposite happening as strongbad. I use fox and lose, and change to doc and win.
re: mute city. The only char I think of CP to here is sheik, but I guess spacies work for the same reason. I just like taking her ledges away ^_^
re: mute city. The only char I think of CP to here is sheik, but I guess spacies work for the same reason. I just like taking her ledges away ^_^
I keep it in mind for sheik, but the last time I had to CP a sheik was like, 2 years ago at pound2.
It was drephen.
Nothing could have saved me at that point.
It was drephen.
Nothing could have saved me at that point.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
dreffin is really good
unknown522
Some guy
I can understand mute city sort of. Doc already has no recovery, now you remove your opponents recovery.
Dreamland is horrible in a lot of matchups. Doc gets camped like a *****.
FD I guess?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
it's cuz both my fox & doc ****.
Shroomed
Smash Master
dreamland is amazing for doc
and HMW told me to go mute city vs zhu in the last match of losers finals yesterday
i didnt know it was a good CP lol
and HMW told me to go mute city vs zhu in the last match of losers finals yesterday
i didnt know it was a good CP lol
otg
Smash Master
Anyone want to give me some back up in the matchup thread in the Melee Discussion? IMO Doc's matchups are off for the most part, and I want as much input as possible from other people, particularly since what Unknown believes, and what the consensus amongst the Doc community is is quite different.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
videos please
Shroomed
Smash Master
wait for brandon to post them lol
he's prolly gonna have some up tonite and most up tomoro
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
no give them now
Shroomed
Smash Master
i wanna see them too so i can see where i messed up
im bored, anyone wanna play Starcraft?
im bored, anyone wanna play Starcraft?
eighteenspikes
Smash Master
I'm definitely not posting in that matchups thread. It's 600 posts of theoryfighting. Several posts scream inexperience with the matchups or even Doc himself. There's no way I'm going to contribute a serious response because I know someone will just quote my post and say noob **** like "BUT MARTH CAN JUST FAIR YOU 
IT'S 90-10!!! " or "BUT YOU CAN GUARANTEED 0-DEATH CG FALCO AND CAPE HIS LASERS SO ITS 50-50 
" . I'd say just let them have their inaccurate list, then people might switch from Luigi to Marth vs me cause they think it's a better matchup 
IT'S 90-10!!! " or "BUT YOU CAN GUARANTEED 0-DEATH CG FALCO AND CAPE HIS LASERS SO ITS 50-50 " . I'd say just let them have their inaccurate list, then people might switch from Luigi to Marth vs me cause they think it's a better matchup
Maybe it's me, but in all the people I've played i've never really been camped to death as Doc. I mean he's got easy means to null/reflect projectiles AND move, he's fairly mobile, very agile on the ground, and has his own projectile that forces alot of movement or action.
I really cant see how he gets camped out.
It's not exactly the greatest, it's doubled edged.
laugh
(it's the Satoko laugh for people who get tired of checking).
[super_rant]
I straight up told you dont bother trying to argue that, not in this community. It's too closed minded. You're never going to convince people Doc stands a chance against against "anybody above him", inspite of what's been established in the past, what's happening now, and even what people on the other side of the matchup say. Why? Because people dont see it, and that's how this community works.
-snips a random rant about his history-
tl;dr - I've seen/had arguements of this nature with this community before. It always winds up the same, nobody really does their research, they go off of assumptions and the generic "what they've seen", and everybody who really knows is "BS" until the truth becomes commonplace; if that ever happens.
The only way people's opinions are really going to change on those matchups is when somebody starts winning consistantly in any major region. Period.
-snips a long winded segment that really doesnt matter-
That really just loops back to why you wont win any arguement you try to put up in there. You can name 10 good foxes, here and now. YOu can do the same with falco, sheik, etc. Name 10 Docs worth a **** that do or did play this game. You're going to be splitting hairs arguing that one, and with the way this community works, that means Doc is a s**tty character that can never amount to anything.
Just let it go, it'll really just cause you more trouble than it's worth. Unless you, for some reason you have some obligation to have doc "correctly represented in every notation", there's absolutely nothing to gain from this.
[/super_rant]
Ill tell you this, though; just like people not konwing the truth about stuff like Dunk %s, people not knowing the truth about matchups actually works better for you than against you. Especinally since all of their stuff is built off of old/false information.
-edit-
That rant would look more ballin if i'da left all that stuff in there.
Oh well.-double edit-
I mean, since people care about matchups in here, we might need to have a doc conference and talk about this s**t. XD
JPOBS
Smash Hero
what is the truth about dunk %s dogy?
what percents are garunteed KOBE vs jiggs, peach, and the like?
what percents are garunteed KOBE vs jiggs, peach, and the like?
Shroomed
Smash Master
norcal knows that doc aint no joke
First
___
Second, what is "the like", because one thing people dont even consider is the fact that d.throw is affected by weight.
That and falling speed is why Samus cant be dunked.
__
But yeah, beyond that, I'm never going to put those %s on smashboards. Seriously, go look in the capfal thread and find the %s where throw -> knee works. You'll be surprised at what you find.
anthony000
Smash Journeyman
Dogy, I'm from AL and I'll prolly come home later this summer before school starts again. I plan on trying to get a car. If I do, and if you're up for it, I would like to participate in a doc conference cuz that stuff does really need to happen more. And I pretty much agree with your rant.
Lol. If you feel like driving over here, that's cool and all. Where do you live in AL? What might actually work out if is we meet up in columbus a few times. I go there every once in a while to chill with Alpha and the many many underground smashplayers there (DP's Mario for one, if you happen to know/remember him).
But "The Doc Conference", as I'm talking about is just us getting in an aim chatroom. XD
But "The Doc Conference", as I'm talking about is just us getting in an aim chatroom. XD
rpgfighter
Smash Journeyman
Hey all first time coming in here and being a new Doc player I just have a few questions.
1. Is it a good idea to throw pills in the air?
2. Is the Bdown effective at all?
3. Should I use the Fair alot?
and
4. Whats his most important tilt?
I dont know if this is the best place to post, it just seems that this would be quickest way to get my questions answered.
1. Is it a good idea to throw pills in the air?
2. Is the Bdown effective at all?
3. Should I use the Fair alot?
and
4. Whats his most important tilt?
I dont know if this is the best place to post, it just seems that this would be quickest way to get my questions answered.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
well i dont have aim but any particular reason for the reluctance to put em on smashboards?
ps. downthrow knee works at any percent because falcon is a G.
ps. downthrow knee works at any percent because falcon is a G.
eighteenspikes
Smash Master
1. Yes
aerial pills offer good movement and extra control over where you want them to bounce. Just be careful with the timing because they have a lil bit of lag on them. 2. Kinda. It's okay for recovery as it gives you a LITTLE bit of height and horizontal distance if you press B fast enough. However, it's more commonly used for stalling off the edge. It's very difficult to use effectively as an attack. If you're new to doc I would avoid trying it for anything but recovery until you're more comfortable with him.
3. That's another kinda. Just spamming fair is a bad idea; it's really powerful but it has a lot of lag. It all boils down to knowing WHEN to use it. Try to experiment with it and find situations where you know it's more likely to hit, like after an up/down throw or an opponent's laggy attack.
4. Either his uptilt or his ftilt. Dtilt is pretty much worthless. I personally get more use out of utilt but some people swear by ftilt. I use utilt a lot to break up the approach of characters that tend to come in from above (usually fox, falco, marth, and captain falcon). It's very fast and has a weak hit that pops them above you, often starting combos.
I commonly use ftilt just after getting up off a ledge because it has good range and comes out quick. But I don't use it that often otherwise. Maybe I'll let someone who likes ftilt explain some matchups where it's more useful.
Good luck with doc
