Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Dogysamich]

omg dogy. i swear you exist solely to make posts i disagree with

I CANT HELP IT IF I DONT FALL IN LINE WITH YOUR NONSENSE!

1. docs recovery is AMAZING. I routinely live past 200 in tourney matches. People are just too afraid of that upb and my di is heavenly
2. dair is terrible imo :embarrass
3. huh? why? also you can't really cape high-tier shields because you still hang in the air while they get to use an amazing bair/dair oos. fox, falco, sheik, peach, cfal all bair, marth dairs, and you didn't even do any damage.
4. LUIGI IS IMPOSSIBLE TO COMBO

1)
*points to what toasty said*

Yeah, I live to 200+ often myself, that doesnt mean doc has a good recovery. It's literally people dont understand that all you have to do is hold the ledge and you edgeguard doc. Yeah I can (and do) all sorts of stuff to make people move/scare people into moving, etc etc, but anybody who actually knows the matchup knows that

if they are on the ledge then I am ****ed.

Doc DOES NOT have options (aside from an airdodge onto the stage).

2)
Man f**k your opinion. JUST KIDDING :D

I dont think d.air is the greatest thing ever, but it's not bad. And if you do manage to land one (on somebody who doesnt know how to DI it) d.air -> n.air/b.air/u.air is baaaaaaaaaaalliiiiiiiiiiiiiin.

3) You cant SH Cape INTO somebody because you dont put them in any kind of hitstun (unless you get the "counter hit" property of caping). So what you're essentially doing is jumping into somebody and committing to an animation while they stay in (a relative) neutral state.
-If you can out prioritize somebody's attack, and their attack doesnt move them towards you, then you're fine.
-If they're jumping at you in any shape form or fasion, and you would be in their line/arc regardless, you're going to get hit (because melee cape doesnt have reverse momentum, like we know. )

So it's not that you cant SH Cape people period, it's that if you want to do it, you're more likely not to get hit if you jump straight up or backwards.

4)
Well then by that logic, doc is impossible to combo. YUAH!

 

[otg]

Wellll, Doc can use reverse upb like Marth can, kinda. Since the hitbox is so HUGE, you can clean-hit spacies outta their recoveries, sweetspot/almost instantly sweetspot, and then bair or cape accordingly. This is pretty nice, and I think it's fairly flashy. The trick is hitting with just one coin. I haven't tested this on actual players yet, but I like it so far. I'll see how it fairs against Marth and whatnot.
3) I think the cape can act as a jab reset at any percent, but I was just ******* around vs computers last night, so I'm not sure.

I've been talking about using Reverse UpB in the manner you described for months, PREACHING how good it is, but alas no one gives a **** and it's a lil too situational to be groundbreaking.

Also, IIRC Dogy discussed using cape as a jab reset a WAAAY Long time ago... unlesss im just baked.... oh wait.

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

docs recovery blows yo

if you tornado near the ledge its pretty much an automatic death haha

 

[Dogysamich]

Also, IIRC Dogy discussed using cape as a jab reset a WAAAY Long time ago... unlesss im just baked.... oh wait.

I did, it dont really work.

Some people will just automatically stand up cause they're kinda... lol.

But again, cape gives you no knockback unless you hit them "counter hit", so all you do is hit them for 12 damage and flip them around on the ground.

Now mind you this isnt bad (it's actually really useful when your opponent is on a platform), but nothing amazing is going to happen off of this.

___________

hey i combo'd a luigi this weekend. it was pretty kool. what do you think 18s?

 

[eighteenspikes]

i think he forgot how to hit the a button

 

[KirbyKaze]

I comboed a Luigi.

 

[eighteenspikes]

 

[Dogysamich]

How bout I combo'd the living mess out of a luigi in brawl too. On wifi.

Where you at not sir?

__

HEY 18S, I WILL SAY SOMETHING YOU WILL LIKE.

So how bout somebody cp'd MKII against me this weekend. And I started to get up to see if it was even legal, but i was like "Lets try it, if I die i'll blame 18s" So I camped the middle like a complete f****t, and won.

You should be proud, since you swear that stage is amazing!

I THEN PROCEEDED TO HOP UP OUT OF MY CHAIR, GRAB A LUIGI PLUSHIE, AND U.AIR JUGGLE IT OUT OF THE VENUE.

 

[otg]

This one time like, i uair juggled luigi from 0-death all four stocks. I even ended the combo with uair and thanks to Doc's insanely broken recovery I was able to keep that uair juggle goign all the way to the edge of the screen. Jiggs aint got **** on this.

 

[Dogysamich]

Oh, you mean you actually stopped when you got to the edge of the screen? Scrub.

I combo'd luigi so hard, I just combo'd him to the next stage, and stayed with him. Started on FD, combo'd him over battlefield, into the tree on PS. Juggled him on the wall till his changed, comboed him up onto and through Floats, all the way to rainbow cruise. Then I combo'd him into the Staples Arena and Kobe dunk'd his *** for the win. XD

 

[otg]

****, I never thought about going from juggling him from stage to stage. It's obviously possible though, Doc is way to broken.

 

[Desh]

i uair juggled > ubcancel'd (OFF STAGE) > rest'd this luigi.
and survived.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

i uair juggled > ubcancel'd (OFF STAGE) > rest'd this luigi.
and survived.

I did this.

...Twice

 

[eighteenspikes]

HEY 18S, I WILL SAY SOMETHING YOU WILL LIKE.

So how bout somebody cp'd MKII against me this weekend. And I started to get up to see if it was even legal, but i was like "Lets try it, if I die i'll blame 18s" So I camped the middle like a complete f****t, and won.

You should be proud, since you swear that stage is amazing!

****, not bad, not bad. When I read you went to MKII I was like "oh god he's gonna be that scrub that pill camps the sides and goes for bthrows" but I'm impressed that you camped the middle instead. Keep up the good work MKII FOR NEUTRAL

 

[otg]

Doc can upB cancel off stage now? *goes to hit the sticks*

DEAR GOD THATS BROKEN, he has an infinite recovery now, no wonder dogy was able to juggle luigi across FD -> DL -> BF -> YS -> FD (again) and than finish his *** at PS.

 

[St. Viers]

wait, you mean you guys don't just use doc's infinite f-smash glitch?

 

[otg]

wait, you mean you guys don't just use doc's infinite f-smash glitch?

Wait is that the one where Doc's fsmash hitbox stays wrapped around his body forever like Ness's jackets, or is that the one where Doc's fsmash grows like 50x in size and gets no start up time or winddown lag?

Or sometihng new entirely? Us docs are truly advancing his metagame too fast.

 

[Dogysamich]

****, not bad, not bad. When I read you went to MKII I was like "oh god he's gonna be that scrub that pill camps the sides and goes for bthrows" but I'm impressed that you camped the middle instead. Keep up the good work MKII FOR NEUTRAL

Yeah, i tried the stage like, last year at a tourney once. That's where I found out I dont really like it.

It really just boils down to who gets the lead.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

otg and st. are gay.

 

[Dogysamich]

So yeah, here I am watching me fall apart in some matches. Pretty funny stuff.

On a normal day, i'd be a nice guy and link to each individual match, but eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh ,,!,, :D


Beyond me playing like

1) I dont grab enough, and it's funny because I actually set myself up to get alot of grabs and just dont.

2) my edgeguarding blows. I know ima watch HMW's nonsense that he does against spanimals.

__

edit: -stops and looks at avatar- That just doesnt look right on me. XD

 

[otg]

otg and st. are gay.

TOGETHER TOOO!!! .... nah you stfu. Go back to giving mediocre/repeated advice that's been contributed by people who are probably better than you ....

wow that was mean, but you started it!

 

[Shroomed]

how many ppl in this thread actually play doc in tourney?

....or at all lol

 

[otg]

how many ppl in this thread actually play doc in tourney?

....or at all lol

I use him in teams, and for certain matchups.

 

[anthony000]

I only play Doc... Yeah, I know

 

[Strong Badam]

how many ppl in this thread actually play doc in tourney?

....or at all lol

i use him in friendlies.

 

[DRD]

*raises hand*

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

how many ppl in this thread actually play doc in tourney?

....or at all lol

doc only all day son!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I play Doc. He's my secondary.

In fact, I got a butt-ton of matches in tonight. asdfghjk!!11!11111! Marth is a pain in the ***. The absolute hardest match-up I had. But it was fun and I am definitely getting better with him.

(Unfortunately my Sheik is still better.)

Smooth Criminal

 

[eighteenspikes]

i havent used a character besides doc in a tourney match since early '06 :|

 

[Dogysamich]

how many ppl in this thread actually play doc in tourney?

....or at all lol

**** THIS POST OMG STUPID THING WANTED TO BE DUMB.

me.

 

[toasty]

I use Doc in teams if the feeling is right XD but he's my best and favorite character to warm up with =D

 

[Shroomed]

the only chars i pick in tourney are doc or mario

i'll go marth on yoshi's story only if im playing a peach or falcon

my marth sucks tho

 

[KirbyKaze]

shroomed didn't go doc at that thing he won

lololol

but he went mario so i guess it counts? sort of?

nah

(Unfortunately my Sheik is still better.)

when would having a better sheik than doc ever be disadvantageous?

 

[St. Viers]

I use doc when my fox lets me down (which is 90% of the time). In fact, I just always use doc, in tourneys (the one time I tried to CP a marth w/ shiek, I lost).

speaking of shiek, if anyone needs help w/ this matchup, it's prolly the one I have most experience w/ outside of marth XD

 

[otg]

speaking of shiek, if anyone needs help w/ this matchup, it's prolly the one I have most experience w/ outside of marth XD

spit some knowledge, she and marth are really the only top/high tiers I would consider switching for.

 

[Shroomed]

chain grab and uptilt sheik, you win

you have to win the first match or you'll lose with CP's, or at least i do

CP mute city or FD

 

[Dogysamich]

speaking of shiek, if anyone needs help w/ this matchup, it's prolly the one I have most experience w/ outside of marth XD

Yeah, why dont you tell us about the doc/sheik matchup.

And keep in mind, if your first sentence isnt "Chaingrab that ho", yo s**t is null and void.

JK! :D

But seriously, talk about it.

 

[St. Viers]

Yeah, why dont you tell us about the doc/sheik matchup.

And keep in mind, if your first sentence isnt "Chaingrab that ho", yo s**t is null and void.

JK! :D

But seriously, talk about it.

Alright, time to tell the stuff that I kinda think work--I'm of the mindset that this is actually an even match, although maybe slightly in shieks favor.

First of all, let's look at why shiek is good. She's fast, has amazingly little lag, and can do really gay stuff from her down-throw. Her projectiles are one of the best in the game, and is really good with edgeguarding. However, some of her on paper strengths don't fare so well against our good doctor.

1. Her grab game. Unlike half the cast, doc can't be chaingrabbed (unless you try to DI at a low percent). That means that you have an advantage over many characters. Also, he can't be techchased from it, which gives you an advantage the spacies don't have. Her options from a throw are these:

*Try for a regrab. Unless you DI'd, you can n-air her.

*go for a f-tilt--you can DI that away, and n-air when she tries to follow up, or (i think)
simply trade n-air, and both get hit.

*go for a f-air. At low percents, DI it up, and you're all set. At higher percents, you can DI back and n-air, or simply rising d-air. If she goes to follow up with a b-air instead, just n-air and DI, and you'll be fine (it's hard for her to sweetspot it from a throw, without your n-air hitting her before it comes out). If she up-airs, DI away, and have fun being above her, which isn't that bad for you.

2. Her Projectiles You have a cape, and pills. Her needles have a very straight path, either ahead, or diagonal. You can cape a fully charged thing of needles, if timed properly, or just avoid them. Also, as you can pill from angles her needles can't reach, I'd say doc can camp better in this matchup, which is important.

With needles, things to watch out for are:

*disrupting your recovery. If you try to recover low, and don't have your second jump, you're dead. Recover properly, up Up B into them, and regain your UpB (risky)

*forced wakeups. Either you get hit, or you respond. Either way, it limits your options. No real way to deal with this except to react faster, mix up teching, and use of platforms.

*shield pressure-> grab. If she landing canceled needles on your shied, she pretty much gets a grab. I buffer a dodge, but she has the advantage, if she doesn't mess up. Try to avoid her rather than shielding.

Anywho, with that out of the way, let's look at what we have on her.

1. We have grab combos!. To please dogy, I'll gloss over CGs--the problem with them is that they don't do great damage, and you can't actually force them towards an edge. However, we do have other things to do from a grab, such as up-smash->up-air->stuff (I like a simple jab->regrab, when it pops up, or jab-> d-smash if they DI up/away), uptilt, n-air (to clear them away), or b-air. Point is, we can do something she can't---get good damage off of a grab.

2. She's easy to gimp. Throw her off, b-air her second jump (if she tries to f-air you off the ledge), and grab the ledge. When she recovers, grab her and throw her off again (or jump past her and b-air--she can tech that until wicked high percent, but still needs to use her upB to recover). From below, you can even cape her recovery. Once she's off the edge, and needs to use her upB, it's your fault she isn't dead, not doc's.

3. You can camp her. throw pills, cape/dodge needles, and bait approaches. Your jab/f-tilt actually stop her rushes (dash attack, grab, etc), and you can CC her jab/f-tilt at low percents. Be a *****, it's cool, and really frustrates them. Feel free to use platforms, and even edge-cancel pills. Even if it doesn't reduce the lag, it's an option to continue moving, retain, a jump, and react to what they do in response.

Anywho, onto a hodgepodge of little things to watch out for, avoid, and be aware of. (gathered from playing my bro, local shieks)

1. Try not to shield! Dodgng in other ways is better. You can't SG from a properly spaced aerial, except d/u-air. DD-grab, uptilt, upsmaash, run away and pill are all *much* better options.

2. Recovery tips:

*recover high, and throw pills! Even if she b-airs through them (her only attack that can do that and still hit you while it's out, if you space properly), you get hit by the weak hitbox. DI that up, and she actually just helped your recovery.

*save your one cape that doens't hurt your recovery (too much). That way you can cape her needles (whether from her jumping, or on-stage), and still recover. Also, it helps you avoid f-air, and b-air. If spaced right, it also can turn up-air from a kill into another move that helps your recovery.

*When on the ledge, autocanceled d-air is your best bet, if she's pretty close. If they leave the ground, you can turnaround f-tilt, jab, or uptilt, but her n-air comes out quick enough to eat any grab you try. If she CCs it, shield, or prepare to DI up, in towards the stage. If she's standing further back (so that you can't do that, or edgedash back on), empty hops->regrab (or landing on stage), and ledgehop pills can help. Also, practice airdoding onto platforms, as that also helps mix up recovery.

My most important thought I'm pretty sure that in air, we actually have the range advantage, in all directions but behind. From the front, f-air beats her (all assuming proper spacing). from above, our d-air beats her up-air, and from below, our n-air, up-air beat her. from the back however, we can't beat her b-air, except that it's hitbox is slanted slightly up. That's important to remember, even if not always useful. On ground, uptilt and up-angled f-tilt clash with all her aerials, and you can CC her f-air, n-air at pretty decent range of percents.

*Watch out for d-smashes. They punish you for spotdodging, stupid rolling, misspacing grabs, and any CCed attack. Some points about it.

*You can b-air OoS without a problem. Make your you don't jump too early though.

*You *can't* WD OoS and get a grab in, however, properly timed, you can jc-grab between the first and second time she hits the front.

*n-air is beat by it at the beginning of the animation, though there is always a weakspot at the top of the attack. I prefer f-air, and d-air though.

Use upB, n-air, and up-air to interrupt her attack chains--if you want to simply get breathing room, need to hit sooner, use up B (and try to use platforms properly). If you wanna knock her away, use n-air (as fast as a jab, surprisingly), and if you have the time, up-air is pretty fast, and allows you to turn tables, and start comboing back.


I generally forget about using up-air's but really, they help alot, especially in this matchup (I've combed shieks from 30something-death using up-airs, platforms, jabs, and d-smash XD)

If there is anything I missed, you disagree with, or otherwise wanna comment on, let me know (again, me having matchup experience doesn't mean I know everything, or even necessarily the best way of doing something)

and in a nice color for you ^_^

tl;dr: "Chaingrab that ho"

 

[KirbyKaze]

I d-throw mock-cg doc if they di away. It works to like a eleventyonebillion percent so it seems pretty good. If they are cute and don't di i u-tilt or uair to another move. di that doc. Same if they di behind me.

Doc's love of nairing out of combos or trying to also lets Sheik use the whole "shield after u-tilt / uair / u-tilt --> uair and wait for move to shield grab" and that leads to more damage which is good or nair out of shield which leads to more damage which is also good

at high percent (120+) if you di behind her you'll die by uair silly unless the sheik's ******** (although a lot of us are), and it's very easy to sweetspot bair on doc btw if he di behind after like 50 so don't give me that "my region's sheiks don't dash after d-throw" crap

tl;dr i think her throw game is very good against doc, not quite on par with an inescapable chain grab to 50 that autocombos into a 22% f-smash with high knockback but still pretty good

i mostly agree beyond that except be careful jabbing sheik she has a d-smash and a cc grab

 

[DRD]

Great advice except for the part where I had to copy/paste into notepad =)))))))))

I've yet to play a really good shiek so I'll see how it works out

Thanks