Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Dogysamich]

as much as i dont like fighting a samus on there, i could actually come up with a **** good reason why you'd want to take samus there.

You lose cause you cant stop her grapple recovery and because she (somehow) outruns you.

I still wouldnt advise that at all. If samus's grapple is the problem, there are 2 better stages to get rid of it.

 

[Strong Badam]

brinstar and dk64 are awesome stages. they are my most used cps.

 

[Dogysamich]

With Doc?

Ya know, I've always thought about DK64, cause I could see some good coming from it, and I imagine some things you could do with it. I just never got around to really trying it.

I dont specifically think it's a bad stage or anything.

 

[St. Viers]

@strong bad: there's no character I'd be comfortable fighting a samus/peach/jiggz on Mute with. Maybe fox, but I'd never CP mute XD

@Dogy: DL64 is only seem as a bad stage because of the odd ledges, and cannon, right? To me it seems like all it would take would be spending a bit of time getting used to grabbing the ledge properly, and doc would love it. I can't see a downside to it except the platforms are high >_>

 

[Kasumi]

I'm really a fan of the in depth counterpick discussion, since my counterpick game is pretty terrible. I always pick neutrals. I'm definitely gonna try CPing Mute City on a Sheik if they like to ledge stall, just to try it. It's true I don't want to be in Sheik's face, but when the ledge stall is the other option, I'd prefer it. I played one in a tourney recently and I'd have rather lost in a blaze of glory.

Also Strong, why do you like Brinstar with Doc? And against what kind of player? Any kind of Doc info on non neutral stages will make me happy, because I never use 'em out of fear.

@St. Viers: Small typo. You mean DK64?

 

[Dogysamich]

i've honestly considered picking up jiggs just so i can ban other **** against peach/jiggs/samus. Cause I always ban mute city vs them.

I'll fight them on DL anyday, that's no problem. I'll fight them on any other stage any day, cause there will be ledges. The stage being big just helps Doc vs them. But Mute City is small with no ledges. That spells disaster.

__

As for KJ64 (DL=DK im guessing. **** it, that stage is KJ64 till i forget to call it KJ64 again).

As for KJ64, I've really never paid much attention to it because nobody ever picks it. I actually play it alot in friendlies, but I never see it in tourney. Kinda upsets me considering it used to be a doubles random stage, but people always just "neutral ban" it, so it kinda just dropped off. There could be some good things to come out of it.

Barrel. The way I see it, it's a double good thing, not only could you get to it on recovery, you could actually defend it with pills (i think, i'll have to mess with it).

High platform. Although it's bad that you cant use it on your recovery, I just thought about "Well, what happens if you jump up there and throw pills from there?" Now instead of your pills dropping down and covering low, you have your pills covering mid, and you can get high. If you stop pilling at a timely manner, you can drop down and cover mid/low. Take some practice I'd imagine, but it's a thought.

 

[Kasumi]

First I'm gonna thank everyone for their stage input, because I really do appreciate it.

And now, I'm gonna ask what is a general melee question, but I don't feel like I've seen it anywhere. Hopefully the Doc boards are cool with that. Does every attack have two separate amounts of hitstun, one at 0, and one past X%? Or does it gradually increase as the percent goes up? Or does it not change at all? Reason I ask is, because I used to think I just didn't possess the timing to Uair combo people until Dogy made that post about percents characters can be uair combo'd. Then I realized I could do it.

If percent only controlled knockback, then I feel like I'd be able to uair combo some of the lighter characters from like 30%, but that **** doesn't work.

If hitstun changes, I've been approaching this game wrong for YEARS! trying to combo people at low damage instead of nickel and diming them until I COULD combo them. Let me know.

 

[Shroomed]

KJ64 is awesome vs fox

the ******** floor angle messes up their drillshine grab, (drillshine upsmash if they're fast enough, which half of norcal foxes are)

and the ridiculously high ceiling makes upsmash not kill till like 120-130%

me n my friends play it on random for doubles cuz we CP it a lot in teams =D

 

[Dogysamich]

And now, I'm gonna ask what is a general melee question, but I don't feel like I've seen it anywhere. Hopefully the Doc boards are cool with that. Does every attack have two separate amounts of hitstun, one at 0, and one past X%? Or does it gradually increase as the percent goes up? Or does it not change at all? Reason I ask is, because I used to think I just didn't possess the timing to Uair combo people until Dogy made that post about percents characters can be uair combo'd. Then I realized I could do it.

If percent only controlled knockback, then I feel like I'd be able to uair combo some of the lighter characters from like 30%, but that **** doesn't work.

If hitstun changes, I've been approaching this game wrong for YEARS! trying to combo people at low damage instead of nickel and diming them until I COULD combo them. Let me know.

...... *stares at monitor for 2 minutes*.

Ya know, I get the feeling this question should be blatently obvious to me, but I actually dont know for sure. It changes knockback, you know that. Hitstun..... ummmmm I honestly dont know.

I want to say yes, because if it didnt, we'd be able to u.air juggle people from 0. The problem is that they dont fall over. However, once you get closer to the % that they fall over, it becomes easier. So logic wants me to say "Yes it affects hitstun", but .. i've never really questioned it. And.... for once in my e-life, i dont feel like firing off like I have a clue when I really dont. Cause this is the kinda question I really dont want to give a wrong answer to.

____
I can answer your last statement; yes there's actually a point where you cant combo people because of lack of hitstun on them (for whatever reason, falling over, lack of stun, etc etc.) So yeah, at the beginning, you want to chip people up a lil bit to get them into comboable range.

Go watch like, good capfals. You'll notice that if and when they get their crazy *** u.air juggles, they're not doing it at 0 percent. They have to actually put damage on people first. You have to actually know the range where people start getting knocked over/still are in range for followups/etc etc.

That post I made wasnt specifically "The time when you can combo characters", it was %s that characters will fall over from an u.air. I mean sure, if they DI poorly you can follow up and juggle them, there's more you can actually get from that than just combos.

uuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmm i hope that helps.

____

*continues dancing around the room to the Persona 3 OST*

 

[eighteenspikes]

well you can combo differently at different percents. you cant do uair juggles at 0 but you can do weird stuff like multiple usmashes. my understanding is that moves with set knockback have set stun (shine, yoshis dtilt, docs up-b, most jabs) but anything that increases knockback will also increase the stun. I'm not sure what the relationship is (my guess would just be linear) but maybe that's something you could investigate with AR do a move at different percents and see how many frames go by before one can act.

 

[Vulcan55]

I used to CP DK64 all the time when I played Puff, but I don't play her so much anymore except sometimes against Falcons or maybe other random chars who I have no experience against.
Seems like a good stage for Doc. The only problem is, depending on their CP character, I might not want to play on that stage anymore. :C

"Okay, I pick DK64"
*Peach*
"****"

 

[Dogysamich]

i'll play a peach on there and run from her alot. just dont run on the middle platforms cause she can get to those in a timely manner.

Hell, I'd rather fight peach on KJ64 over FoD.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I see you guys are in here plotting against the rest of the world lol.

Im banning KJ64 against all you just cuz

 

[Strong Badam]

well you can combo differently at different percents. you cant do uair juggles at 0 but you can do weird stuff like multiple usmashes. my understanding is that moves with set knockback have set stun (shine, yoshis dtilt, docs up-b, most jabs) but anything that increases knockback will also increase the stun. I'm not sure what the relationship is (my guess would just be linear) but maybe that's something you could investigate with AR do a move at different percents and see how many frames go by before one can act.

different moves have different stun & knockback gain values. this determines the rate at which the knockback and stun increases based on percentage. my guess is that this is done through some sort of formula, rather than being linear. it could be quadratic, as well.

 

[Dogysamich]

I see you guys are in here plotting against the rest of the world lol.

Im banning KJ64 against all you just cuz

You just won the award for the slowest maa****er ever.

We've been plottin for like, **** near a year up in this piece. You 'gon get yours.

:D

 

[Vulcan55]

I lost to his Mewtwo last time I played him in tourney.
:C

 

[Strong Badam]

Also Strong, why do you like Brinstar with Doc? And against what kind of player? Any kind of Doc info on non neutral stages will make me happy, because I never use 'em out of fear.

Sorry I didn't answer sooner; I went to bed early last night & school & johns. lol here you go

First, they won't be good stages for any character until you're familiar with the stage and comfortable taking your opponent there. Moving on:

Brinstar has a medium-height ceiling, and so Doc won't be murdered by Foxes up-smash/up-air or anything at like 70% like on Yoshi's Story lol. The blast lines on the sides are somewhat close to the stage, so if Doc dies off the side it's not like he would have made it back anyway, so it doesn't really hurt his recovery so much. It also means that Doc's horizontal kills (so basically all of them unless your opponent DI's your f-air in) will be accentuated because sometimes Fox, Jiggs, Peach, Samus, etc. will die even though they could have recovered if it weren't from the blast lines.
The stage is also not flat, and so it will mess up shine -> stuff and general combos from most other characters. The uniquely placed platforms also give Doc good vantage points for edgeguarding (like what Dogy was saying with DK64's however to a lesser extent).
If you're fighting Samus/Link/Young Link (who uses those chars anyway lol), they won't be able to grapple recovery around your recovery like how it seems to happen on most other stages, to me anyway.
A lot of players aren't too familiar with Brinstar, so if you're good on the stage that gives you an advantage. The odd terrain can help Doc's pill spamming (they'll bounce at odd angles thanks to the slopes; this can mess with a lot of player's spacing), too. It's like cping a stage like DK64 or Green Greens, no one knows wtf to do LOL.
These reasons coupled with the fact that the acid helps Doc's recovery and doesn't help others recoveries as much (Doc can just like b-air if they're using the acid to recover, or even an fsmash/f-air if they're coming up from under the stage).

Personal experience with counterpicking the level seems to reinforce the reasons I mentioned above. I've even had some success vs. Captain Falcon and Marth on this stage LOL. I'll see how well DK64 works as a cp this Saturday, Dogy's post makes enough sense to me so I'd like to experiment with the stage.


also about the hitstun thing... like I said up there, hitstun is increased similarly to how knockback is. LOL chaingrabs wouldn't work very long if that was the case. Have you ever seen a character get down-air'd by Falcon or Ganondorf at like 70-90%? They're locked in hitstun for like a whole second or two LOL

 

[SpruceTengu]

You just won the award for the slowest maa****er ever.

We've been plottin for like, **** near a year up in this piece. You 'gon get yours.

:D

Bahaha

It's so true, though. So much Doc plotting. xD

 

[KAOSTAR]

I lost to his Mewtwo last time I played him in tourney.
:C

My m2 is **** lol. Plus im picking him back up as my primary

You just won the award for the slowest maa****er ever.

We've been plottin for like, **** near a year up in this piece. You 'gon get yours.

:D

lol. Ill be waitin. strapped wit gatz

 

[Dogysamich]

with m2? I wouldnt be too surprised. M2 actually has some things over doc.

-Ridiculously long b.air
-Good tilts.
-Good recovery, with a good recovery defense AND free passes through edgeguarding
-**** good AA (n.air)
-kill from grab (i forget "the magic number" vs doc, i know it's like ~130)
-edgeguards from grabs (that's basically a kill vs doc, lol).

__

realistically, m2's biggest cons vs doc is m2's flaws, he's a big, light target (note I said light, not floaty.)

has to deal with so many pills, gets dunked so **** easy, it's just kinda ridiculously.

~~~~~~~~~

But yeah, m2's got some things he can do vs doc.

 

[KirbyKaze]

mewtwo's tail is longer than doc's body so it would be logical doc would have issues with him.

 

[Vulcan55]

^And of course, that's how he killed me.

 

[Rykard]

plus m2 can pretty much teleport out of everything and confuse the hell out of you. my friend mained him for a while and its usually the wtf mewtwo? that will get you cause most people arent even aware of what it is capable of

 

[Shroomed]

jus go mario vs mewtwo and fsmash that tail!!!!

 

[metashinryu]

jus go mario vs mewtwo and fsmash that tail!!!!

naa,just go doc and slamdunk his A$$

 

[Dogysamich]

plus m2 can pretty much teleport out of everything and confuse the hell out of you. my friend mained him for a while and its usually the wtf mewtwo? that will get you cause most people arent even aware of what it is capable of

Realistically, all m2's teleport is is a longer, faster airdodge with benefits. So you have to go about it the same way you would somebody who would airdodge; you have to make sure not to over commit unless you know they're not going to do it.

-Random m2 info- Contrary to popular belief (hell, i used to believe this for a while till i actually looked), m2 wearing a tag doenst hurt him at all (like zelda wearing one does). The ONLY thing a tag gives away is an airdodge. The reason why it's not so big is that if m2's holding a shadowball, that's going to give it away too. M2's actual teleport is fast enough to where it doesnt really matter if you know where he's goin, if you're not there you cant punish it. Of course, that's assuming he does his teleport right. (TK'd teleport. I bet nobody thought I could slide that term into melee. XD)

As for the b.air; it's the same as any long aerial. You cant be on the same level as it (read: GO THE **** AROUND IT). Not easy, but **** aint easy.

jus go mario vs mewtwo and fsmash that tail!!!!

Yeah, mario's f.smash really helps him out in this matchup. that and the fact that his cape allows him longer wait vs m2. (Although it can be double edged if you're trying to edgeguard at the wrong points.)

 

[KAOSTAR]

Haha tell that dude vulcan he hasnt even seen half my tricks lol.

Also I use to believe the teleport tag thing as well and then I said **** it whether its true or not I dont care. M2 is badass and I like my tag lol.

The best way to avoid someone going around your bair [as m2] is simply to bair and fast fall it. Its big enough that it hits but its slow enough that the hitbox stays out long enough to hit anywhere in that wall.

and yea the Fsmash can **** a m2 up. and Pills make me wanna quit lol. Theres no point in even powershielding them either

 

[Shroomed]

why's the m2 player all up in tha doc boards?

he's on to us ya'll

we'll never run into a m2 anyway so w/e

 

[Vulcan55]

I've played two...
In tourney...
And lost to both...

:C (At least I got both of them down to their last stock)


You guys are killin' me.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I've played two...
In tourney...
And lost to both...

:C (At least I got both of them down to their last stock)


You guys are killin' me.

M2 himself was sandbagging. Get ***** lol.

 

[Shroomed]

dont worry vulcan

if i see a m2 in tourney, ill make sure to beat it for you

unless it's jeff m2....

 

[Dogysamich]

why's the m2 player all up in tha doc boards?

he's on to us ya'll

we'll never run into a m2 anyway so w/e

hah. Haha.

AAAAH-HAHAHAHAH

Man I wish I lived on the west coast or somewhere where I actually didnt have to know low-tier matchups.

There's a reason why I actually know some stuff about m2. Anytime there's a decent size tourney around here that brings OoS, I have to go through Iori's m2. Im not good enough to where I get to bypass that test yet.

Then I remember one of my early tourneys when I was down in FL playing Dguy's m2, and barely squeaking by that. (As a note to why matchup familiarity is important, I barely one stocked him with my doc, but I 2/3 stocked him a few times with my kirby. That tourney + my kirby was hilarious).

__

But yeah, There's really only doc matchups i really dont have a clue about; luigi and pikachu. And it's not that I've never played them, I just havent played them ever since I actually started learning matchups and had a clue.

Luigi's gunna change this weekend, I'm probably gunna play a buncha friendlies with Biglou at IC4. Doesnt matter if he's a brawl player, he's actually got a pretty beastly luigi. I MEAN IF THE LUIGI MATCHUP IS ANYWHERE AS HARD AS SOMEBODY CLAIMS IT TO BE, I SHOULD GET WRECKED CAUSE I SURE AS HELL WONT BE LOOKIN TO WIN IT. XD

Pikachu? I know a few things, but I've only played 2 pika's ever. I remember cyphus told me that all you really have to do is uptilt. Oh boy did that **** get me *****. XD

__

... why am I talking about this? *scrolls up*

Oh yeah. Man I wish I didnt have to actually know **** like the port-priority mechanic vs G&W, and the best way to cape bombs and whatnot. But hey, it actually adds variety to an 8 year old game.

 

[SpruceTengu]

I... want to go fight a good mewtwo now.

And Dogy--be sure to let us know about the Luigi matchup business. I've had a few friends go through Luigi phases and never really come up with a reasonable/consistent winning strategy.

 

[Strong Badam]

But hey, it actually adds variety to an 8 year old game.

But Dogy, Melee is only 7 years old.
I 3-stocked my friend's mewtwo when he used it against me. LOL

 

[Shadow Huan]

Kaostar told me this was going on... I want in.

with m2? I wouldnt be too surprised. M2 actually has some things over doc.

-Ridiculously long b.air
-Good tilts.
-Good recovery, with a good recovery defense AND free passes through edgeguarding
-**** good AA (n.air)
-kill from grab (i forget "the magic number" vs doc, i know it's like ~130)
-edgeguards from grabs (that's basically a kill vs doc, lol).

__

realistically, m2's biggest cons vs doc is m2's flaws, he's a big, light target (note I said light, not floaty.)

has to deal with so many pills, gets dunked so **** easy, it's just kinda ridiculously.

~~~~~~~~~

But yeah, m2's got some things he can do vs doc.

The magic number against Doc and Mario is 110% on FD... with a perfect DI. Subtract 15% on yoshi's Story and we can kill you at 95%. Dang straight. even better with a B-Throw too...

mewtwo's tail is longer than doc's body so it would be logical doc would have issues with him.

plus m2 can pretty much teleport out of everything and confuse the hell out of you. my friend mained him for a while and its usually the wtf mewtwo? that will get you cause most people arent even aware of what it is capable of

That's why we play him.

why's the m2 player all up in tha doc boards?

he's on to us ya'll

we'll never run into a m2 anyway so w/e

You should see if you can play Iroi's Mewtwo. You'll have some stuff to worry about.

I... want to go fight a good mewtwo now.

You live in Eastern MA? What's up son? You have two Mewtwo players in your very state! Me and Cloud777. You should try and find us at MM. unless you're that Mario/Marth that beat me. In which case i promise a rematch.


All in all. Mewtwo doesn't actually have too much against a good Doc/Mario. It really comes down to who reads whom better.

 

[SpruceTengu]

You live in Eastern MA? What's up son? You have two Mewtwo players in your very state! Me and Cloud777. You should try and find us at MM. unless you're that Mario/Marth that beat me. In which case i promise a rematch.

WORD.

This I like. I think i'm going to be out of the country for the next MM, for epic sadness. I'm working in Costa Rica for most of the summer, but will be back in mid-august and hoping to attend any localish tournies I can when the time comes...

While I was at the MM in March, I never fought any mewtwo's or played mario, so I'm not your man. Regardless, we should totally play some time. =D

 

[Dogysamich]

You should see if you can play Iroi's Mewtwo. You'll have some stuff to worry about.

The funny thing about iori (and I'm pretty sure that by saying this im going to get assaulted on here, aim messages, maybe a phone call. XD)

... the funny thing about iori is that his m2 is really just "feelin somebody out." He's a m2 main in the literal since of a main; meaning that when he sit down to play somebody, he will more than likely play m2 first.

But if he loses (or the stage is "not a m2 stage" lol n**ger), he's switch characters. The hilarious thing about it is there's no d**n telling who he's going to switch to.

Iori is like a lessor, mid-south azen. Last time I asked him, he said there were only 5 characters in the game he would never play in tourney (i forget what 5 they are, it was actually an odd list). .... the man frickin plays pichu alot when he teams with Pikachad. They still win alot. It's pretty comical.

He's one of those people who believes that "anybody can beat anybody" in this game, and obviously knows how to practice to do so.

_________

... he sure as hell doesnt practice m2 on japes though!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D

~~~~~~~

Oh, m2 doesnt have it bad against marios; i wouldnt go as far as to say it's even though. Maybe against mario since mario has a hard time killing.

But Doc? There are some things that go against him there.

 

[otg]

Cyphus told you to just utilt Pika.... wtf lol? We ain't mario. The true way to beat Pika is to CG the **** out of him. He barely goes anywhere when you dthrow, and dthrow-> fair kills pretty low. Done.

 

[Dogysamich]

Well, he was right in that you can do something like u.tilt, cause you have to realize pika is one of the few characters in the game doc has the range advantage over.

And yeah, i know to chaingrab pika, the problem is that for the good pika i've played, grabbing that thing wasnt going to happen.

A real big problem you can have against pika is that if you've never seen a pika recovery, it's actually a weird thing to deal with. If i remember right, you still want to force them onto the stage with up+b because there's landing lag (its not alot if im correct), but pike can recovery from and to some odd *** places. That vertical recovery is pretty **** good.

 

[Stos]

hi guys =D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hchdk41C0rY

holy**** lots of wall of text time to read.