Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[eighteenspikes]

all luigi has to do is whip out the trebuchet™ (nair) to bust out of all your combos. for real luigi is one of docs hardest matchups* because you cant combo him but he can combo the piss out of you. you can maybe get away with quick low uairs that tickle him w/your toes but otherwise you'll get a trebuchet to the face. also your good stages are his good stages. ugh. instead of going for grabs/combos like a normal character you should just spam spaced bairs and go for capes/gimps. and dsmash his wd's lol. use the sledgefoot™ (ledgedrop bair w/frames) on his *** when he tries to fake you out with his up b.

* docs hardest matchups in order!!!!!!!! : (edited for Dogy ) (edited again because seriously... luigi is good)
1. sheik
2. cfal
3. luigi
4. the other 3 top tiers
5. ganondorf
6 everyone else

edit99999 **** this post has been edited a lot

edit: also: Holy toledo!!!! I was playing some matches with a good cfal friend of mine and utilt is a freaking good move! like potentially way better than any of us previously thought. I'm going to a big regional tourney in ohio this weekend.... darkrain will be there... I will utilt him a lot and report my findings.

edit2: here's a gif to start out the new page:

 

[Dogysamich]

Wait. Luigi's hard because you cant combo him? What the ****. By that logic jiggs should be hard.

And ganon harder than marth? Putting all the "theory fighter" aside, i still cant buy that arguement at all.

*shakes head*

Luigi 3rd what the ****. I might lose sleep over that for real.

___

....i seriously stared at my monitor mad for like, a good minute before I hit send. XD

 

[anthony000]

Alright, thanks. I'll keep that in mind. Bair ftw

 

[doublejoint]

i thought we previously thought utilt was already god; how much better does it get?

___

i seriously stared at that gif mad for like, a good minute before i read your actual post

 

[eighteenspikes]

Wait. Luigi's hard because you cant combo him? What the ****. By that logic jiggs should be hard.

And ganon harder than marth? Putting all the "theory fighter" aside, i still cant buy that arguement at all.

*shakes head*

Luigi 3rd what the ****. I might lose sleep over that for real.

___

....i seriously stared at my monitor mad for like, a good minute before I hit send. XD

WEEEeeeelllll,........ maybe I jumped the gun a lil on that. But bad luigi's give me a lot more trouble than decent foxes. You just cant combo the ****er

edit: jiggs is hard too :|

 

[Vulcan55]

U Tilt is good against Falcon. I don't know why, but it doesn't ever seem to get much use from me against anyone else.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

I feel you on luigi 18s. He just seems to play Docs game harder than he does himself. If only I could describe exactly my feelings on luigi.. but I can't put a point on it

 

[Vulcan55]

The only good Luigi around me is Ka-Master, so...

 

[Dogysamich]

The only good Luigi around me is Ka-Master, so...

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This mod thing is pretty sweet.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Moves are usually good against Falcon. Most characters against him are basically, to paraphrase Cactuar,

Fox vs Falcon is just getting around his nair, and lagging and getting daired or grabbed stupidly

So I don't see why Doc would be bad at the second half of that if you space and **** around with fancy movement, but I do see how the former would be an issue. Falcon's Nair is like super gay.

I've always wondered if it would be smarter with Luigi to not CC at low percent but instead try to SDI up and into them and then Nair them for whatever they do into some sort of **** combo, seeing how his Nair lags for less time and has a more convenient launch for comboing into grabs and pretty much anything. I was playing with a level 9 Luigi to test how long I could shield-grab his Nair with Sheik after I D-throw Uair drifting back on him if he DI behind or up or no DI but then it occured to me, after I Naired him and he went above me and Nair --> U-smashed me, that such a thing would be possible on anything that lags on him at low percent.

Doing it might be too hard to warrant use, though, and CC is dumb so maybe not. Still, I dream of a day where Sheik cannot space tilt or aerial on Luigi in fear of being Nair --> grabbed into a homo tech chase combo BS because of stupid Luigi homo. So instead we needle camp and continue to needle camp and just spam pins and grab and homo grab mixups and *drools*

I dream of that level of camping.

Oh right this is the Doc boards.

Uhhhhh

*runs*

 

[otg]

Ok first of all.
- Luigi is an even matchup, get him off the stage and he shouldn't make it back. He's like jiggs but his recovery is bad.
- Utilt is the ****, and I have been abusing the crap out of it in the exact same way you show in that video for months 18. Utilt after an Uair is Doc's godsend to mankind, glad you finally caught up with the curve.
- Sheik is def Doc's hardest matchups, than it goes either Marth/Falcon depending on whether or not you want to play theory fighter (IMO, I think Doc/Falcon is close to evenish with good DI), than probably Falco or Fox. After that, any matchup that might give Doc some trouble (Icies, Ganon, Link) are really even for Doc if played right. I think his only bad matchups are Sheik/Marth, and after that it comes down to your style and how well you do against spacies.

TBH, I have a hard time with Falco so I'm picking up Sheik for him and Marth. Don't give me that bull**** that Falco counters Sheik; A.) we aren't the Falco boards (aka ********), and B.) this isn't 2006. Tech chasing and needles ****, thats all I'm saying.

 

[Desh]

lol sheik ***** falco XD
but i agree.
I hate the luigi match up.
But the luigi i play moans and groans whenever i edge gaurd him -.-
So im forced to play on the stage opposed to beating him how i should lol.
Playing luigi on the stage is stupid.
Just get him off with bairs and grabs and fh dair >uair and ****
then just edge gaurd him.
the only thing luigi has over you imo is priority, that stupid *** nair, and a longer wavedash, wich can be an advantage and disadvantage for him.

Just dont try to combo luigi and you'll be fine.
Like dogy said, just treat him like puff lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lol sheik ***** falco XD
but i agree.
I hate the luigi match up.
But the luigi i play moans and groans whenever i edge gaurd him -.-
So im forced to play on the stage opposed to beating him how i should lol.
Playing luigi on the stage is stupid.
Just get him off with bairs and grabs and fh dair >uair and ****
then just edge gaurd him.
the only thing luigi has over you imo is priority, that stupid *** nair, and a longer wavedash, wich can be an advantage and disadvantage for him.

Just dont try to combo luigi and you'll be fine.
Like dogy said, just treat him like puff lol.

stop listening to your friend when he *****es about edgeguarding. luigi's primary weakness is his recovery. just tell your friend to work around it or change his character. recovery/edgeguard is half the game. would you tell a fox player to stop killing off the top? its just him whining cause he is losing, he will either get over it or be a baby.

 

[Desh]

lol yeah i know, its just annoying as ****. -.-

 

[metashinryu]

when i play against luigi i just cape his green misile recovery XD

 

[.Rance.]

this is spikes
ughh lol I played like ***. no cfals so IDK about utilt in pools I got 2nd seed, 1st was Sliq. I gave some Luigi his only set in pools. he got 2-0'ed by everone else but I lost the set to him. theory proven. hes 3rd hardest for sure lol . whover said he should die when hes off the stage is wrong because he floats up every time you hit him and eventually he misfires. then I lost to a zelda and an ice climbers in brackets. lmao. fukken mission failed

 

[Desh]

dam spikes,
a ZELDA? O_o
maybe you just had an off day LOL XD

 

[Dogysamich]

well, if you have problems with luigis and you say it's your 3rd hardest, that's fine.

And lost to a zelda? Im not surprised, i see zelda/doc being even. But of course people will swear up and down there's no way simply cause zelda's low tier, and the smash community is weird like that.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah most people are pretty weird like that despite the fact that a lot of low or mid tier characters have even matchups against high and top tier chars.

i might go doc at a tourney soon, see how it goes.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...uhhh...

Not completely ****, maybe, but there're very few even with the top tier, if any.

 

[Dogysamich]

ya know, lemme backup and say something. Cause after reading though all this again I get the impression that I'm making it seem like doc/luigi is perfectly even or something. (Along with sounding like the complete ******* I always sound like when I debate. But hey, that's how I roll. >.>)

There's no way in hell Luigi is doc's 3rd hardest matchup. He doesnt have that kinda advantage over doc, no matter how you look at it. He doesnt have greater range, overall speed doesnt isnt better (cause sure he can WD and cover ground fast, but the f**k if he can do it in the air). And luigi doesnt completely shutdown one aspect of docs game. However, it's pretty easy to argue luigi has a slight advantage over Doc.

Luigi has some things going for him, yeah; but he actually has quite a few things going against him.

___

On a somewhat related note, I kinda thought of something. 18s you say luigi and ganon are hard, I say they're not. I thought about it for a second and I'll guess that it's probably because of the one glaring difference between us.

You love platforms and I absolutely hate them.

I mean, as of late, I've only played one Luigi in tourney (greenmario), so I cant say much about that. (I really dont remember HOW I beat him as much as I just kinda b.aired and forced him to space WDs well).

Ganon? 3 stages I like against Ganon (or anybody really)

1)FD
2)Corneria
3)Pokemon Stadium

Because ironically, every good ganon player I've played lately who's taking games off of me or beaten me all did the same thing; jump on the TOP platform to get around pills. Once they get up there you're at disadvantage, you have to come through their zone. So if you keep playing them on stages with top platforms, you keep giving them a way around pills. (Said ganon's being Chaddd, Iori, Rockcrock, Kage. Chaddd beats me anywhere and everywhere because his spacing is pretty ridiculous and he knows how to get around projectiles like they dont exist (****ing SF players. XD), Iori, Rockcrock, and Kage all lost to me on one of those 3 stages, and beat me on FoD or Battlefield. )

At the same time, if you dont use alot of pills and just constantly commit to trying to enter his zone, then you're giving up YOUR advantage. It's pretty easy for Ganon to land "the 2 or 3 hits he needs to take a stock" if you constantly just try to play the range game without pills. You realitsically should NEVER get in range without pills. It's the same concept as Peach trying to approach without Turnips (which is how I compare Doc to Peach).

I'm not saying what works for me will absolutely work with you; I always tell people that's kinda stuff is never the case because that would require 2 people to think, act, and play alike. It's just a long-winded observation I had.

 

[Desh]

i like platforms against most characters. the ones i dont would be ganon marth and sheik , just off the top of my head.

In other match ups though, the way i play i feel really comfortable with the platforms.
But with the 3 i listed i feel completely at a disadvantage. For the reasons dogy pointed out and other obvious ones like the fact that they **** you if they force you up to the platforms T_T. and pills obviously arent as effective on small platform-ish stages.

i think in most situations if a character has more range than you without projectiles then you should assume you're going to need space.

i agree that luigi isnt that bad for doc. just dont screw around >_>
he doesnt win imo if you can get him off the stage at least 4 times.

****, hes taking a risk going off the stage to edge gaurd you O_o.

I wanna play chaddd. =/

but yeah luigis far from docs hardest match up. someones just doin it wrong.

yesterday me and a friend ordered pizza, but we came up short like a dollar, so we scavenged like 100 pennies from around my house lol.
dam was that delivery guy pisssed XD

 

[Shroomed]

i recently discovered for myself that fountain is GREAT for doc

it was CP'd against me by meep (marth player)

i barely won on battlefield (last hit last stock) and 2 or 3 stocked on FOD

guess i got a new counterpick vs non sheiks and falcos

 

[otg]

FoD doesn't **** with Doc as much as other characters. I don't think he does particular bad or good there, but personally I like DL and Yoshi's better. FoD has a really misleading ceiling which kinda ****s up Fair.

 

[Vulcan55]

I love platforms. Except on Yoshi's when I'm edgeguarding. They get in my way.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Singles
1: mango ($220.00)
2: jman ($110.00)
3: vwins ($55.00)
4: scar ($35.00)
5: wife ($10.00)
5: dj nintendo ($10.00)
7: cactus
7: bam
9: eggm
9: hax
9: kage
9: pkm
13: tope
13: vanz
13: zoso
13: spam
17: pest
17: spawn
17: pakman
17: g$
17: cyrain
17: jfox
17: trademark
17: lolmaster
25: ultimascout
25: deff
25: woz
25: mike$
25: canismash
25: vex
25: thumbs
25: awsmsean
33: chred
33: what
33: shakugan
33: kcs
33: chewman
33: rin
33: chibo
33: lite
33: milos
33: talwind
33: sneak
33: ame
33: prog
33: beat
33: sk47
33: rich
49: rabbt
5:

awesome tournament I went to yesterday. i did alright imo
i'm tired of people banning DL on me. :[

 

[otg]

Hey, atleast you got FD for.... spacies.... ugh. lol

 

[Dogysamich]

or... the rest of the game. I mean seriously, the only character that you dont have a reason to take to FD is ICs.

And I base that on the assumption that they have some chaingrab on Doc. Considering I dont think they do, you could take their *** there too.

I love it when people ban dreamland against me. Complete waste of a ban. It's worse than my ****in Flatzone bans.

But yeah, congrats on not getting last! Who'd you beat?
Na, scratch that. Who'd you play?

 

[Kasumi]

I got last place in that tourney. (KCS on results). My goal now is to really up my technical game, and learn the falco/sheik matchups. For Falco, I just give up under pressure. Against Sheik I think I double jump too much. Need to get some videos of me out there, so the wonderful Doc boards can help me out.

Good **** Deff. You tied with Vex and Ultimascout, two players I know and beat me senseless.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

mike money, scar, shakugun, and spawn for brackets is all I can remember but thats probably all of them

eggm/pest/canismash for pools.

I think I got recorded a ton but I'm not sure if its all gonna be put up.

Why would dreamland be a pointless ban? I'm usually playing a sheik 99% of the time in tourney and its nice to get dreamland sometimes. It gives me more time to think. I usually ban pokemon stadium just to be safe unless I know its a jiggly main, then I auto-ban mute city (or peach). There was like 2 other doc mains. Made me happy there were others xD

 

[Dogysamich]

I got last place in that tourney. (KCS on results). My goal now is to really up my technical game, and learn the falco/sheik matchups. For Falco, I just give up under pressure. Against Sheik I think I double jump too much. Need to get some videos of me out there, so the wonderful Doc boards can help me out.
.

Ah. It happens man. Just live and learn from it. We're here to help.

... "We'll leave the light on youf ya"

Why would dreamland be a pointless ban? I'm usually playing a sheik 99% of the time in tourney and its nice to get dreamland sometimes.

I meant when people ban DL64 against me.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

I see, so I'm assuming you favor fd more anyways (I'm guessing)? :o

 

[Dogysamich]

My CP list looks something like this.

If I lose because I flat out got outplayed and it is open, I go to FD.

If it not open, I go to Corneria.

If I lost to a FFer who I could not catch, or I lost to a FFer that I landed an absurd amount of grabs on, I take them to Mute City.

If any of this criteria cant be met, I go to Stadium.

__

Beyond that, it's looking into why I lost. There are some other if/than's that I have, (i.e. if I lose to a samus/link/ylink because I couldnt stop their recovery).

__

But yeah, more often than not, I'll go FD/Corneria/Stadium.

 

[eighteenspikes]

wtf, do you guys think i am just messing with you on luigi. its a handicapped ditto. literally everything doc does to luigi, luigi does better to doc. and to everyone constantly bemoaning docs "terrible" recovery, the arbitrary "edgeguard him 4 times" theoryfighting is way more applicable vs doc than it is vs luigi.

 

[otg]

It's not like Luigi flatout counters Doc at all though. I can't say whether or not it is a bad matchup, but his 3rd worst? I just can't see that. I would say for the most part, you really have to treat Luigi like you treat
Jigglypuff, which IIRC a matchup you don't like spikes.

Here are some tips I have. He's slow in the air so he should be approaching on the ground (otgizzle) a lot. Knowing this, you can control his actions somewhat.
- only pill spam from far away, he can get in very quickly out of nowhere with a WD or two, and hit you with a Ftilt/utilt or one of his smashes.
* Knowing that he can get through you quickly, be careful using pills on small stages and in close quarters in general as he can get close to you out of nowhere.
* Keep this in mind when in the air while using aerials/pills/cape, as he might outpriortize what you are doing, or catch you while you are still in lag with a free aerial, ftilt or utilt/usmash -> fair/dair/nair -> continued rapeage at mid percents etc.
- Counter this with grounded pills/sh pills to potentially force him onto a platform or stall him from rushing you down. You can CC his ftilts with a nice dsmash, which is the move he will probably try to space you with while he WD approaches you.
- If he is for some reason Full hopping against you, punish him with utilts/uairs/bairs. Bair is key in this matchup as you are more maneuverable in the air than Luigi, so you can control alot of space and set up for gimps with shbawl's and what not.
- Out of dthrow you really can't punish him safely until higher percents, so go for bthrow for the most part, he's vulnerable off stage for the most part.
- Drop down bairs against his recovery with invincibility frames so you can hopefully prevent a misfire (sucks if it happens though, not much you can do about it...... but maybe cape?)
- cape his normal luigi missile... but be weary of using cape to deal with luigi in general, his aerials are fast and turning him around might just allow him to hit you with a fair/bair/dair. It is nice if you catch him as he jumps though because he'll go up alot higher and probably miss w'e aerial he meant to throw out at you. this leaves him in the air above you whilst you are on the ground (otgizzle) which is where you want his ***.
- Do NOT Dsmash into his shield as he gets a free grab/dsmash/****ing anything out of it. If he grabs you can nair him before he can follow up til a certain percent (just like him to you), but at a certain point (no idea when), he gets free punishment which == nairs/dairs and fairs. Watch yo ****. While we're talking about dsmashes, watch out of for his CC dsmash, so I would avoid jabbing him a lot, or poorly spacing ftilt/utilt (infact just use utilt if he is above you).
- Oh yeah I remembered another one, if he has to use his upB to recover and grab the ledge, just edgehog the poor ******* because his upB doesn't get any horizontal love at all unlike Doc and Marios, so he'll just fall. Yeah you can probably cape him if he misses the sweetspot, but I Would just edgehog to be safe.

Yeah thats my sparknotes for Luigi matchup. Sorry if it's all over the place, I'm distracted by Animal Planet.

 

[Shroomed]

i think doc v luigi isnt that hard cuz doc can kill luigi at like 30% with bair/cape

but there's a pretty good luigi i play and i hate how if i try to hit him more than once i get naired
and then once he nairs me, if it's at low damage he gets a free combo me off the stage card

i dont completely agree with u 18s, but it is pretty *** gay

and im gonna upload some vids soon so you guys can critique my doc cuz it needs work

me vs SilentSpectre (doubles w/ teammates dead) last stock he's at over 100% and im at like 15% i get need at 55% and die cuz i DI'd it out
i almost cried

if i DI'd in, i could've got doubled i think

was i screwed? lol i'll upload it too i recorded

 

[otg]

The best way to DI the knee is up in general. He might be able to still knee you again who knows, it seems like Jeff can do ****ing anything lol. He also seems to flat out KO people with the knee at like 68% and ****, mofo is super saiyan.

 

[Shroomed]

you dont have to tell me lol

he pretty much went super saiyan on me the next match

but i use him to set goals for myself

first goal was to take a match

new goal is to beat him in a set! (ROFL i know rite?)

 

[doublejoint]

you can do it

you've come so close before

i saw your doc vs ss the first time waffles posted it, and **** you're so much better now;

especially in pressure

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Luigi would be one of those characters where a small platform stage would be awesome against and a big open field for him to d*ck around with waveshielding would be doing it wrong. I also think Luigi's undoing is the fact that all his movements are telegraphed by this big noisy "Ya!" or "Whooo!" and he has no aerial mobility, or recovery for that matter.

You don't even need to combo him to kill him. Any time he's hit off the level at a bad angle he dies, and you have Doc's back air. In addition to Doc's back air, you also come with a handy dandy projectile so he has to come after you or eat pill damage. The biggest problem I'd see Doc having is that Luigi's F-tilt is longer than Doc's whole body, but oh well, Doc's probably used to that by now. I'm pretty sure you can punish F-tilt anyways, if you're clever.