Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[elvenarrow3000]

zomg nu at! *runs off to Brawl boards*

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Soooo

What's the general idea on how to fight Fox? I can beat the one I fight regularly with good consistency, but I feel like I should be ****** him. A lot of my tricks for vs Marth and vs Falcon just get baited and *****, and so I'm left using pills a LOT more than I'm used to, and generally feel like I'm winning only because I have ******** set-ups for baiting and punishing bad DI.

Things I'm having problems with, in particular:

1) The **** shine. I don't get gimped very often, since I tend to favour the middle of the stage for any Fox-related engagements, but if I try to jab, he ALWAYS cc shines. Jab>dsmash is pretty rare.

2) Dair. I don't know how to go about beating it. I can't reaction usmash it very well, since the stupid Fox is just hopping around everywhere with empty aerials. If I try to predict one, he's normally just going to waveland and come in with a grab/usmash.

3) His mobility. I have no problems with Marth or CF's mobility, but Fox is just kinda everywhere. If he starts doing FH ff DJ shenanigans, I can normally end them with a pill/fair/nair, but other than that, it's no good. =(

4) My edgeguarding vs Fox seems to be lacking something.

Well, not my edgeguarding, but my bairs. I can fsmash anything that's not sweetspotted, or cape bad recovery angles, but I'm not getting the bob$ bair spam to work. Do I just need to follow him lower, or what? What are some good set-ups for edgeguarding?

5) Nair doesn't seem to do much aside from punish side-steps and rolls in this match-up. What am I doing wrong? Or is it just not that great? What moves do you find yourself using the most in this match-up? How do you use them? Ftilt is obviously good, and utilt can get some nice edgeguard/cg set-ups, but other than that, I have to predict like hell to land anything.

6) uthrow shenanigans.

He knows that I can just DJ away before the uair connects, but if I do that, I'm left above Fox, with no jumps. It sounds like a horrible idea, but I really don't want to take uthrow uair. I used to use nair to break it, but every now and again, I trade hits/get uaired. Do I just need to shake the stun faster, or what?

Anywho, thanks to anyone that can give me advice. Like I said before, I can win when I try, but it's not the **** I'm used to doing/seeing.

EDIT:

Oh, and in case people didn't know, Doc's dashing sh covers roughly the same distance as Fox's back roll. If you see a roll/predict it, hop in that direction with a nair, and he'll be smacked with a 80% (more or less) strength nair.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You can dthrow chaingrab Fox after a while, if I recall correctly, meaning you don't really have to uthrow anything, unless you're going for a uthrow fair kill.

As far as dair goes... you can smash DI out of it, or you can dash dance away, then grab.

If he's CCing your jabs... I dunno, go straight to dsmash or grab.

 

[KirbyKaze]

His Nair actually just sucks.

 

[Niko45]

Whenever I play OTG he just chaingrabs up throw early and then ***** with edgeguards. For Fox up throw you can DJ out or just fall with dair I think. OTG does this to me when he sees me overshooting the up air looking for the DJ.

There's not much doc can do to stop fox from invading his space so you kinda just have to be good. See your openings and punish mistakes bigtime.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Thanks! I'll try DIing the uthrow crap, and then tossing out a dair. That move is too smooth.

Stupid shine. >=(

I need to grab more, I spose. Watched some HMW and Shroomed vids, figured out some more ways to shut down his approaches. So much work, but at least grabs really pay off.

What I want you to note in this is that, although capfal has a slower spotdodge overall, he has more frames of invinc than average.

Better or worse? Pick your poison, kinda depends on what you're dodging/how you react.

Regardless, Capfal doesnt have the worst one no matter how you slice it. I mean technically speaking Capfal can actually spotdodge a peach d.smash with a little room for error. Good luck actually doing it, but it IS physically possible, unlike people who only have 14 frames of inv)

Isn't m2k's frame data incorrect? Or is it more accurate than SDM's? Cuz there are some differences, I think.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I haven't seen any differences, but I could be wrong.

 

[VGmasta]

Soooo What's the general idea on how to fight Fox?

The jab-->dsmash for Doc is rare against Foxes that crouch-cancel-->downtilts or shines or against Foxes that simply full hop immediately after a jab. Therefore I agree with elven:

If he's CCing your jabs... I dunno, go straight to dsmash or grab.

As far as Fox's d-air goes, I would suggest spacing away from it with dash dancing or wavedashing so that Fox does land on top of you with a d-air. As long as the fox lands by you with a dair, it should be a free attack for you.

Aw, the empty aerials-->air jump shenanigans from Fox. If you expect a Fox to play mindgames in the air like that, try answering with full-hopped aerials. You know how dumb the Fox looks when he gets caught in the air by Doc's dair?! (which deals 20% if they get caught in the entire thing!)

B-air spamming vs. b-air timing for the edgeguard. From what I've seen from BobMoney and myself (VGmasta), b-airing for the edgeguarding is all about timing and prediction vs. Fox. So b-airing a Fox illusion or an air-jump requires prediction. Connecting additional b-airs to gimp/edgeguard Fox after the first b-air you land on a recovering Fox requires a mix of spacing and timing. Bobmoney does back air gimps because he is good at keeping track of his limitations offstage with Doc, while watching/predicting his opponent's recovery.

Useful moves vs. Fox:
N-airs should beat a Fox that isn't shielding, crouch-canceling, spacing/camping or doing any of his good aerials to beat Doc's n-air(b-air, n-air). Full hopped d-airs and n-airs should beat Fox if he is playing in the air a lot. Grabs kill crouch-cancelers, shielders. Wavedashing (particularly away from Fox) should mess up aggressive Foxes. These are all the moves I find myself using vs. Fox.

In response to Foxes U-throw, air-jumping out should dodge the up-air follow up as long as he doesn't overjump. But if I get up-thrown by Fox and he tricks me into using my air-jump, I just d-air and pray that Fox doesn't hit/crash it with an up-air/upsmash kill.

His Nair actually just sucks.

I think Doc's nair is an all-purpose **** approach except for a Fox that crouch-cancels at low percents into shines and stuff.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Can you say...

10multiquotes? =P

 

[Dogysamich]

Isn't m2k's frame data incorrect? Or is it more accurate than SDM's? Cuz there are some differences, I think.

I haven't found it to be wrong yet. And they'd be wrong compared to what?

I honestly only look at SDM's data for move frames only, I have other sources for other stuff. (M2K's and Magus's data.)

 

[VGmasta]

I finally posted a response to your questions Interim. I'm starting to have fun vs. Fox. Cuz a bad Fox can get ***** by chaingrabs/combos/edgeguarding. A tough Fox can provide me a fun challenge. HomeMadeWaffles once said something that I agree with about Fox: something like "A Fox that knows the Doc match-up is hella hard for Doc, but a Fox that doesn't know the match-up, you can go to town on that mutha****a!"
I couldn't agree more

By the way Doc boards, why do people call it double-jumping?! I hate calling the air-jump a double jump. Sometimes you use the double jump without actually jumping twice. It's just the jump that you use once your character is in the "air" and whether you jump twice, three times, or didn't jump at all before then does not matter by the time you use the air-jump.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Air jumping sounds dumb =P

Has anyone suggested smash DI'ing out of the uair yet? That's something else that's good to know how to do.

 

[boss8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=830ZFZD2n2A

3:15 xD

im so clutch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFdKJsSMyDE

 

[otg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=830ZFZD2n2A

3:15 xD

I do **** like that all day . I got nothing on that match vs. Chu/Slikvik though, were beasting dumb hard. Anytime it was you vs. Chu 1v1 you were ****ing destroying him, good ****. Proving further that Doc v. Icies == docs favor nucka.

Is Azen getting back into melee for pound?

 

[Shroomed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=830ZFZD2n2A

3:15 xD

im so clutch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFdKJsSMyDE

you use dair to uair for the gimp but i use nair

dair prolly sets up better cuz sometimes nair sets em behind me, but w/e works

ur doc is so smexy boss

i HAVE to play you! i wanna team with you lol

EDIT: i didnt know i could squeeze an aerial in after a FH pill, learn something new everyday

 

[VGmasta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=830ZFZD2n2A

3:15 xD

im so clutch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFdKJsSMyDE

****, that's good stuff Boss. Did you hear that guy suck his teeth and yell "F*** you, Boss! Doc is gay!", everytime Boss killed him?!

I gimp Foxes with n-airs too. But d-air to up-air works well too. D-air to b-air works well at stages like Battlefield where spacies get stuck under the stage after the b-air.

 

[St. Viers]

I personally like d-air-> b-air[->j.u-air]->upB. Hit's them into the stage 2-3 times, pushes them around, and gets you back onto the ledge. the part in brackets is for when people either jump/techjump the b-air.

 

[Vulcan55]

If he's CCing your jabs... I dunno, go straight to dsmash or grab.

U-Smash.
Trust me.

 

[otg]

U-Smash.
Trust me.

quote for quite epic truth. I'm still waiting on some people before I annouce the evil broken Doc techs.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

While we're on the topic of usmash.

Okay, so we all know that hit stun is based on launch speed, right? Well if you didn't know, you do now. The only exceptions to this I believe are electric attacks.

Doc's "grounded" usmash seems to have a lot of hit stun for how little knockback it has. The only real explanation I can come up for this is that it actually spikes them into the ground (which reduces knockback by... 25%? ish? and increases hit stun by 20%? ish?).

I forget the exact number. It'd be similar to Samus' utilt.

Thoughts?

 

[Vulcan55]

Looks like it acts the same way.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was.

 

[otg]

I shot this nonsense for my combo vid.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...on the ground, huh?

 

[otg]

clever I know. That song is just hilarious.

 

[Dogysamich]

The doc flower.

___

jab -> cape is so hilarious.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Does the cape jab reset? I think like... the shine does, but I'm not sure.

 

[Dogysamich]

I never sat down and ****ed with it. Some people have told me when I caped them it made them stand up (first one that comes to my mind is sleepyk, which would mean he was playin spanimals or capfal).

I personally want to say the answer is no because the cape would have no knockback at that point (knowing that it only has knockback on "counterhit")

But I honestly dont know.

-looks at clock- I aint doin **** tonight, I'll **** around with it for a while.

I mean, all I did today was troll people on a livestream.

 

[VGmasta]

So, I've been coming a lot closer to beating some local Marth mains in my area. I can already beat some of them, but there are some players that are better than others. By deciding on Doc in tournament, I have to step up against a lot of discouraging characters, especially Marth. I think if I can beat Marth consistently, all of my other matchups will become insanely easier.

Now let's me find out which one of you wreck Marths consistently.

*looks for Youtube vids*

Ah, Dogy looks like he's had lotsa Marth experience, let me see how he did...

 

[Strong Badam]

you're a meanie

 

[elvenarrow3000]

So, I've been coming a lot closer to beating some local Marth mains in my area. I can already beat some of them, but there are some players that are better than others. By deciding on Doc in tournament, I have to step up against a lot of discouraging characters, especially Marth. I think if I can beat Marth consistently, all of my other matchups will become insanely easier.

Now let's me find out which one of you wreck Marths consistently.

*looks for Youtube vids*

Ah, Dogy looks like he's had lotsa Marth experience, let me see how he did...

Wait errr, what was the point of that post?

 

[Shroomed]

i can't beat HMW in doc dittos anymore dang

i got 4th yesterday tho, eh not too bad

who's going to pound 4!? doc ditto practice plz

 

[VGmasta]

Wait errr, what was the point of that post?

I guess to inspire Doc players to not get discourage by stupid characters like Marth. And to wake the dead. I don't know. Pointless besides that I guess.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So i just started picking up doc cause he is mad fun. I feel like im just flailing my priority around most of the time, can someone give me some tips on what i should be doing.

 

[VGmasta]

So i just started picking up doc cause he is mad fun. I feel like im just flailing my priority around most of the time, can someone give me some tips on what i should be doing.

Doc is mad fun. But what you should be doing depends on the matchup.

 

[Renth]

So, I've been coming a lot closer to beating some local Marth mains in my area. I can already beat some of them, but there are some players that are better than others. By deciding on Doc in tournament, I have to step up against a lot of discouraging characters, especially Marth. I think if I can beat Marth consistently, all of my other matchups will become insanely easier.

Now let's me find out which one of you wreck Marths consistently.

*looks for Youtube vids*

Ah, Dogy looks like he's had lotsa Marth experience, let me see how he did...

Imagine how it feels to be a Ganon player not saying Marths, just saying in general it's a pain.

P.s. Rickys a beast.

 

[Dogysamich]

Ah, Dogy looks like he's had lotsa Marth experience, let me see how he did...I SUMMON THE GREAT WALL OF GREEN TEXT

Lol, i dont know why people look for vids of me anymore. Nothing good of me ever gets recorded. You'll probably find the set where I play horribly and lose to FMM, or you'll find the set where I play horribly and some BS happens.

You wont find the sets where I play aight and make him punch a wall at the end, or punch a table, or something to that effect.

___

ANYWAY

Doc/Marth. *Goes to check Desh's lols thread of doc info* Yeah go figure one of my 5 million posts about this matchup is NOT in there. -rolls eyes-

**

Doc/Marth.

The thing you have to understand about this matchup is that, for all intents and purposes, you cant stop marth from doing what he wants to do. No matter how you play, he still has liberty to swing his sword and get something accomplished.

You cant chaingrab him, which is one factor to this being disadvantage. It's not like you CANT combo him, but if it's not a guarenteed hit, he's got 7 different attacks to stop you while he's in the air, 2 that can flatout kill (nair, dair, uair bair fair counter up+b)

-This matchup is pretty cut in dry in the scheme of strategy. The question is "Can you get in?" If you can, you have a chance, if you dont, you lose. All marth has to do to keep you out is nair, fair, d.tilt, and jab at range.

You pretty much have to come in blocking/CCing f.airs, jumping d.tilts, nairs you cant really **** with but you try going OVER them if you call one, yada yada.

-If marth does just about anything else, you can punish it. If he F.tilts, you can WD in and tilt (or jab), I think you get a grab from this but i dont remember. I think you also get a d.smash out of it, but I dont remember.

If he u.tilts, you can actually block -> u.air (or b.air, depending on how you're facing). You can also just flat out duck the thing if you're open.

And if you frickin BLOCK A F.SMASH? **** is freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, save tipper f.smashes. Untipped blocked f.smash = pretty much wavedash in and pick a move that's not your own f.smash. You get WD in -> d.smash, u.smash, grab, jump-in fair. Pick somethin and roll with it.

Most important to know, you want to look for grabs. You cant flat out punish a grab (unless you spotdodge it), but understand that marth gets no huge benefits from grabbing you, but he gives up his range advantage. Like, no marth understands that concept. It's kinda weird.

-At long range, you're free to throw pills like always, and you want to this. Look at how marth reacts to your pills and pray you can find him doing something stupid. For you to really make this work you have to catch him doing something stupid, like trying to f.smash through and hit you (which you can step up and block), double jumping over FH pills (which although he's still safe, is something you can take a snipe at).

If he's not doing anything like this, all you can really do is just pester him with pills and work positioning (which you have to.)

**Random dumb gimmick to look for, because somebody pulled it on me and thought it was new**

You throw a pill and move in, marth jabs and immediately grabs. I havent seen that in years but somebody did that to me like, 2 months ago and made a big deal about it. When I think about it, I havent seen a marth do it to a doc in ages. Just a random dumb gimmick to look for.

-Once you or him steps into mid range, you pretty much have to stop what you're doing and respect what he's doing. You really have 2 options of attack at this point, f.tilt or cape. Your jab is the 3rd longest poke, if you're trying to keep that in mind, but it's a jab. XD

That means you wanna avoid this range as much as possible. When you're here, you're pretty much on defense. You can either play D and hope for something, blow through mid range and get in his face, or abort back to long range and try to get another free path in.

-When you get in close, you still have to respect stuff. It's not like this game is balanced and you get free when you get in. Nooooooo, when you get in, you have to not only do work, but you have to avoid MORE stuff. Now you have to look for reverse up+b shenanigans, which kill.

If you ever land a grab, you can combo the mess out of marth (assuming he doesnt DI, lol), but you can set alot of stuff up from grabs. Just take your damage here and there and set him up when you're done. You actually get a bigger benefit from your grabs than he does. At all times. Then there's the obvious dunk, because Marth isnt Samus, therefore you can dunk him.

Jab -> retreating SHBAWD / Jab -> AC b.air works wonders on marth because you land out of range for him to do anything immediate. So you can try to bait him into doing something, and work from his disadvantage (or punish if he does something dumb).

Also note to work FH Dair to try and deter him from jumping around. It shouldnt work well, but it's not like it DOESNT work. You land a fh dair, you get a free u.air/n.air/b.air (or try for shenanigans). If he blocks it (or ccs), you can just go behind and b.air and GTFO.

-When marth wants to do work, you gotta respect it. Said it once, I'll say it again. At low percents, you want to try to stay away from tipper range and work CCs and tilts. You dont wanna go in shield if you think he's going in the air because he can just space you out. The only exception to this is if you're going to run in, jacked up on his range, and shield when he fairs or something. Even then, shielding isnt your best option because fair is relatively safe.

As you take more damage, you want to shield more. Alot more. Here's a dumb gimmick people dont think of; Marth isnt going to kill you from a grab. He can toss you off the stage and edgeguard you (and you have to be pretty close to the edge), but he cant flat out kill you from a grab. He kills you by hitting you (or edgeguards). So when you start making it up to death %, whatever you designate that to be, start shielding more. I dont mean camping shield (unless that's your strat), but again, understand that his grab isnt a huge threat.

-Edgeguarding marth.
Hmm, always have to respect fair (and basically any aerial if the marth is smart enough to use them), side-b, and counter (yes counter).

If you want to bair him, you basically have to either
1) Call him trying to do something, and b.air him immediately afterwards

or
2) bair him in a place where he's not expecting a bair.

That sounds obvious, but I'm saying that to stress the fact that he can defend himself well on recovery vs Doc because Marth > Doc in the air.

With all that said, there's an easier way to edgeguard marth. It's called make-him-up+b-to-the-stage. You make him up+b on the stage, hop up, toss his *** back off. Same thing you do with alot of characters.

You can make him up+b by

1) making him fear a bair (or d.air if you're $mashmac, lol), and up+b to cut you off.

2) lightshield edgehog gimmick

If he's going to up+b early, you can also try to cape him, although you have to space yourself pretty well as marth has that thing called a sword.

Another dumb gimmick you can do vs his recovery is CC d.smash his up+b. Works if he doesnt/isnt/wont SS his up+b.

-answers the dumb question-
"Well what do I do if he actually is going to sweetspot?" Answer; Grab the f'n ledge.

-When you recover, you realistically dont recover. You pray marth is dumb. When it comes to your recovery, all your options belong to him. The end.

Marth really can have a fieldday on your recovery. You cant go over him, you're doc. So like, you try to go down, and he can just d.tilt and f.smash like the easy mac marth.

Then he can do wanna be capfal bs and dropzone fair.

If you wanna throw pills, he can actually do boost counters (I'm pretty sure like, NOBODY knows wtf a boost counter is. I've seen it a few times, and I think i know how to do it, but I need 2 people to do it and well).

You go low (which well, you kinda have to, you're doc), and you get daired.

Or ledgedrop/ledgehop bair (which you can go around, but that just leads too....)
or dropzone reverse up+b
or The M2K special (side-b dragdown)

And you wanna up+b? Well marth can just counter that too. I mean, if he wants to be super fancy, he can ledgedrop a counter if you're going to SS (which at that point is just being flash, but he can do it no problem if he **** well pleases)

Lol, typing this part makes me want to do a exhibition video of how to **** doc's recovery.

ANYWAY. Recovering vs marth. Come up with a plan and pray.

______

If you still gotta question, lemme know.

 

[Renth]

*snip*

Holy donkey ****** jesus dogy, settle down!

 

[Dogysamich]

Renth, you dont know bout my green walls of text, man. ****'s pretty beast.

 

[VGmasta]

Renth, you dont know bout my green walls of text, man. ****'s pretty beast.

Dude, no wonder all the Docs think you're good. You know more crap about Marth as Doc than I could've imagined. crouch-canceling Marth's Up-B that's not sweetspotted?! That's a crazy mindgame. I never tried it, never heard of it. I always went for cape.

Imagine how it feels to be a Ganon player not saying Marths, just saying in general it's a pain.

I feel your pain. I second Ganon.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Crouch canceling is so gay. I remember my friend would crouch cancel edge guard always. If he didn't hit me on the Dolphin Slash, he'd crouch cancel the first hit of my ledge hop nair and shine me to death.

So freaking gay.