Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Vulcan55]

Do you have a WOT on Sheik somewhere, I want to read it.
EDIT: But not look for it myself.

 

[Dogysamich]

Aight guys. Aight guys. I SAID AIGHT GUYS. Check this out. It's pretty hilarious.

You ready for it?

I don't think you're ready for it. I'm not ready for it. This is gunna be pretty dumb.

Like, you sure you ready for this?

(Click for Fullsize)

Threat Level is RED.

(note, dont get too happy about this just yet, because I can actually show you where I started on the doc grad school guide and make you think I'm actually going to finish that this year).

"Lazy Always Wins." -N64.
___________

But on a more serious note.

OH MY GOD I ****ING YODEL'D A PEACH FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS WEEKEND AND IT FELT amazing.

I didn't know what I've been missing out on. But dear god, that had to be one of the smoothest shenanigans I've ever done in a fighter. Period. And I did the Sakura MZR reset that day too. (Yes that's a random SF4 link for people who dont wanna waste time) Still didnt feel as good as the Yodels.

ANYWAY.

YODELS. SUBSCRIBED AND DOWNLOADED. I'M ON BOARD, SORRY IM LATE GUYS. ^_^

 

[Vulcan55]

Oh shi t.

 

[anthony000]

So I forgot what yodeling is. Can someone refresh my memory?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

The Doc Tornado. Down 'n' B. Down Special.

 

[Dogysamich]

The crunchwrap surpeme.

DO YOU KNOW, HOW AMAZING IT REALLY IS, to see a peach like "Hey I'm floating above you and you cant do anything about it cause you're Doc." AND THEN YOU'RE LIKE

YOOOOODEL

and ***** is sittin on the respawn platform like "Lolwut?"

 

[otg]

Dogy with the epic guide. Good ****. And now we're back to yodeling (>.>) goddammit.

 

[Dogysamich]

Got the intro and the fox section done. ****'s lookin pretty rough.

My goal is to try to do a top and a bottom tier character every day (or every time, atleast) and have this done in like, 13 sittings.

 

[Mike G]

Holy donkey ****** jesus dogy, settle down!

I'm with this guy.


lol that **** was pretty beast, Dogy O_o

 

[Scidadle]

I love dogy.

Doc boards are nothing without dogy.

Dogy, Dogy, Dogy, Dogy.

I staged spiked a fox (uuaa) at a tournament last month when he was on the ledge (like 5 times)

 

[VGmasta]

I love dogy.

Doc boards are nothing without dogy.

Dogy, Dogy, Dogy, Dogy.

I staged spiked a fox (uuaa) at a tournament last month when he was on the ledge (like 5 times)

Was this that Gigabits tourney?! That guy and PBnJ did a very, very mean thing to my Dr. Mario in teams. Those *******s...

 

[Dogysamich]

Depends on what gigabits it was. I've been to gigs like, 4 times, and I actually did team with PB&J at one of the gigs (his nana is a ****ING BEAST on teams. Him himself though? LOOOOOOOOOL DISTRACTION)

And alot of people who go to gigs actually know me as "That guy who sits around trolling people with kirby". Cause 2 times I sat down and straight up demolished people for hours with kirby. I actually need to practice up so I can stay on point with that. XD

-laughs- Ah gigs, good times, good times.

____

So far with the matchup guide, I have the Fox and the Pichu section.

Fox took me like, 2 hours or so cause I was watching N****s play MW2. And btw, f*** some dogs in MW2. F***, some dogs.

Pichu section took me like 10 minutes while on skype. I mean, did you know Pichu (and Pikachu) cant sweetspot the ledge from below? I'VE ACTUALLY SAID THIS A FEW TIMES SINCE THE SUMMER.

Good times.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno about Pichu, but Pikachu's hurtbox also gets huuuge at the end of each section of his Quick Attack. And yeah, I did know that >=3

Speaking of Kirby, where'd your combo video go? =(

 

[Dogysamich]

It does. That's why neither of them can sweetspot from below. N64 showed it to me this summer. I died laughed because of how stupid of a concept it is.

__

I dont know where that combo video went. I didnt make it, some guy (i cant remember who) randomly made it for me.

 

[Dogysamich]

Dead day. lol.

___

Ok, So I'm gunna post up the rough-as-s*** marth section of this guide. I just want some opinions.

-Do you like it?
-Does the format work?
-Am I missing something important?
-Is it long winded?

etc etc.

Edit: I should also point out that I'm strictly doing this as a matchup guide, not a specific "How to play" guide. So it's not like im going to say "Well, when you grab marth you should u.smash at this %, u.air at this %, and dunk at this %." I'm assuming you already have your plans set out for that unless this game really isnt as "free form" as people make it out to be.

Double Edit: Forgot to mention this again too (it's all in the intro, my bad guys).

The difference between the matchup chart and the ratio is that the chart is how I think the match would go if you take 2 equally skilled players and have them play 10 matches.

The Ratio looks specifically at the both characters advantages and disadvantages vs each other.

So with that being said, the chart is not always going to match with the ratio.

__

Get ready, it's going to be ********.

MINDGAMES

Yeah I'm not gunna green wall you guys with that. That'd be ****ed up.

::DOUBLE EDIT::
This video came up in my subscription (NSfW? Maybe? I dunno)
What If Dr. Mario had Lyrics, by BrentalFloss (Brent is a ****ing g). I'd embed it, but I dont trust smashboards, so I'll just link to it and go about my business.

 

[TresChikon]

1. The format is perfect.

I usually prefer to print these things out (kinkos lol,) and most of the time, the formatting of these guides add lots of superfluous spacing and makes it longer than what it should be,

Yours however, is very printer friendly.

2. Not winded at all, I can't apply some of it yet, but that's because I don't have the experience to use it effectively, but I'm positive more seasoned players can use it all.

3. I love it, the style of the writing is very...Dogy.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wow that's long @_@

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Haven't read it yet, but i'm excited for it. Doc is my new character to learn

Plus i need to beat eighteenspikes with my marth this weekend and i want to know what his strats are gonna be ahead of time


edit: read it word for word. Amazing guide! I can't wait to read the entire thing

 

[Vulcan55]

In which case you have to be ready for him being ready for you being ready, which he can be ready for you being ready. And you have to be ready for him being ready for you beaing re~~~ YOU GET THE POINT.

Yo mi

 

[InterimOfZeal]

dtilt fair frametrap made no honorable mention?

For shame, dogy.

I was all happy when you mentioned his corner trap, cuz our Marth does that a good deal, and it freakin' hurts. Only replace dtilt with tippered fsmash. I'm sad that your response was what I've been feeling though, "lol ur pretty much screwed".

Buuuuuuuut

I've been ****** one of our Marth players a lot lately. Ducking and CCing is pretty important, and if you know midrange ideal spacings, the midrange game is actually okay for getting in on him. You just have to do stupid stuff. It's no picnic, though. =(

SOMETHING I DO VS MARTH THAT I THINK MORE DOCS COULD DO!

Okay, so our recovery is balls anyway, right? Marth can pretty much **** us once we're off stage.

You gotsta take the initiative!

My little gimmick is, when I'm in the right range for his up game (utilt, uair, etc) and slightly in front of him (pretty much ideal utilt range), right before I get to him, I use the down b. I only do 3-4 presses, so I lift up ~just~ out of his utilt's range while it's striking, and then I plummet on top of him with downb. The timing and spacing are super precise and specific, but it's saved me more than once. Downb stalling works well against commitment characters (Marth, Ganon, etc), but against characters that can miss and just keep going (CF, Sheik, FOX OMFG) it's not as hot.

But yeah, still, every little gimmick helps.

OH!

Also, we need to start using jabs like Samus players do. Our jab comes out pretty **** fast, and recovers quicker than Samus'. Soooooooooo yeah, start doing it. I messed around with it a little last night, and dayumnz, solid gold.

Not as good news for us:

Be careful when/how you use pills when recovering. I know this is common sense, but a friend started treating my pills like marth's upb. If they lightshield+angle it down, a pill will put them right on the ledge. No bueno. As if swatting them, going under them and swatting you, and the billion other options they have to stop Doc's recovery weren't enough. Ugh.

I'm sure someone posted about it before, but my friend JUST started doing this, so I figured I'd warn other Doc players about it.

 

[Dogysamich]

I dont know what you want me to mention about d.tilt. It's got alot of IASA frames that you can do all sorts of shenanigans with. ^_^

Doc's jab doesn't work like samus' at all, so I don't know what you're getting at with that.

___

And lol at light shielding pills. That's ooooooooooooooooold as dirt. Lucky just did that to HMW and they were surprised on the commentary about it.

Why? I dont know, it's been around since lightshield edgehogging came up. I guess people just havent had Doc to do it on.

There's a reason why you can't have alot of faith in pills.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Plus i need to beat eighteenspikes with my marth this weekend and i want to know what his strats are gonna be ahead of time

Use Luigi. It's Doc's worst matchup.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Dtilt has a lot of IASA frames, but it's not as much as you'd think. It's not even shield grab proof, unless you're spaced out.

Why wouldn't you just cape stall and then drop onto them with something else? Seems simpler to me, but maybe the cape lasts too long or... something.

Really? The lightshield works on pills? It's so finicky... I remembered I tried it on Luigi's Super Jump Punch and it worked (so I still do it =3) but it didn't work on Falco's Fire Bird. Probably because the attack had too much knockback for the shield DI to work properly.

 

[JPOBS]

what you you guys think about randomly caping marth? or anyone really.

like a fox that you can call on their nair approach, i've been messing around with random Capes and it messes fox up something vicious cuz the way the cape lifts them up a bit throws off the l-cancel and you can have your way.

 

[otg]

Be careful when/how you use pills when recovering. I know this is common sense, but a friend started treating my pills like marth's upb. If they lightshield+angle it down, a pill will put them right on the ledge. No bueno. As if swatting them, going under them and swatting you, and the billion other options they have to stop Doc's recovery weren't enough. Ugh.

Mogwai has been doing this to me for awhile now. TBH I don't really think it's that effective, the pills have to hit his shield a certain way to actually make him fall. But yeah like Dogy mentioned, this is old news.

As for the tornado stall, as interesting as it is, I dont really see it being that effective more than once. It's just way too punishable, so if it becomes predicted you're *****. And remember if you do the downB in the air once, you can't do the tornado again regardless of whether or not you tried to ptp or not. I'm not sure if getting hit out of it with a few button presses would restore it or not though, someone shoudl try and clarify.

what you you guys think about randomly caping marth? or anyone really.

It depends on the circumstance. So if Falcon rushes in on you with a nair/knee, cape isn't going to stop them from hitting you because the cape mechanics don't work like that. But it's pretty nice vs. Floaties (jiggs), so why not?



Now onto the real reason why I'm posting (I should just IM you but), whats the difference between Dogy Matchup Chart and Dogy matchup ratio? And for the record this guide is brilliant man. Is this is just a rough draft then I can't wait for the finished product.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Use Luigi. It's Doc's worst matchup.

nah i'll stick to marth. i'm really not that worried about it.

maybe i'll try to beat him in doc dittos the first game of the set...

 

[otg]

nah i'll stick to marth. i'm really not that worried about it.

maybe i'll try to beat him in doc dittos the first game of the set...

You could try Kirby too.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I won't get that serious til game 5.

 

[Dogysamich]

Use Luigi. It's Doc's worst matchup.

*dramatic gasp*

!

what you you guys think about randomly caping marth? or anyone really.

like a fox that you can call on their nair approach, i've been messing around with random Capes and it messes fox up something vicious cuz the way the cape lifts them up a bit throws off the l-cancel and you can have your way.

It depends on what they're doing.

Time for some **** alot of you probably don't know.

Like, if somebody's coming in to grab, or anytime you think they're going to grab, cape that. Caping a grab is one of the universal animations that will cause hitstun, the others being rolling, standing, or jumping from the ledge (not to be confused with ledgehops).

So if you think Marth is going to try to run in and grab, you cape. If he's over like, 45% i wanna say, he'll get knocked down and have to tech.

___

Caping aerials is, again, depending on how well they want to space. It actually PUNISHES good spacing, so you have to use it how you will. You dont flip momentum, so if they planned on crossing you or landing in front of you, you're still going to get it, but if they were trying to like, space a n.air or something on you, then yeah you're straight. It does stall them a bit, so you might screw up somebody's L-cancels.

___

Other than that, you're looking at ground attacks, which is ok if you see it coming. It really depends on the character and the attack (Like against marth, I dont want to cape his f.smash, I want to block it because it's FREE!)

Mogwai has been doing this to me for awhile now. TBH I don't really think it's that effective, the pills have to hit his shield a certain way to actually make him fall. But yeah like Dogy mentioned, this is old news.

Lightshield a pill, fall onto the ledge, ledgedrop b.air. So funny in doc dittos.

As for the tornado stall, as interesting as it is, I dont really see it being that effective more than once. It's just way too punishable, so if it becomes predicted you're *****. And remember if you do the downB in the air once, you can't do the tornado again regardless of whether or not you tried to ptp or not. I'm not sure if getting hit out of it with a few button presses would restore it or not though, someone shoudl try and clarify.

Actually, tornado works like this.

Once you tornado in the air and complete the last hitbox comes out, you can't get your lift back until you get back into a STANDING neutral state.

Complete the last hitbox is important, because if you get hit BEFORE you finish the tornado, you can still do it again. So if falco wants to staircase you and he's shooting above you, you can tornado into a laser + DI up to get some extra distance/height, whatever you want, *HINT HINT NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK*

It depends on the circumstance. So if Falcon rushes in on you with a nair/knee, cape isn't going to stop them from hitting you because the cape mechanics don't work like that. But it's pretty nice vs. Floaties (jiggs), so why not?

*Points back up to cape working against good spacing*

Now onto the real reason why I'm posting (I should just IM you but), whats the difference between Dogy Matchup Chart and Dogy matchup ratio? And for the record this guide is brilliant man. Is this is just a rough draft then I can't wait for the finished product.

Forgot to mention this again too (it's all in the intro, my bad guys).

The difference between the matchup chart and the ratio is that the chart is how I think the match would go if you take 2 equally skilled players and have them play 10 matches.

The Ratio looks specifically at the both characters advantages and disadvantages vs each other.

So with that being said, the chart is not always going to match with the ratio.

You could try Kirby too.

Yeah. I heard Kirby is pretty beast against Doc. Atleast that's waht 18s says. ^_^

 

[otg]

I knew about the Falco stair case lasers, but I wasn't sure if the circumstances were the same in this situation. Thanks for clarifying.

Good **** though, I'm pumped for this.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't really get the chart idea. If one person has the advantage (whether by skill or by character), wouldn't that person win every time? Like it'd be close, but they'd still win.

I did know about the grab cape thing! It happened a lot when my friends decided that cape spam was awesome. I grab a lot too, so... there was that.

It seems to defy hit stun rules though. Normally, it's based on launch speed, but like when you cape Falco's Phatasm after it's already started, you get way more hit stun than expected from a move that really sends you nowhere at all.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

<_<

I wanna see this fabled "Doc guide."

Smooth Criminal

 

[VGmasta]

And lol at light shielding pills. That's ooooooooooooooooold as dirt. Lucky just did that to HMW and they were surprised on the commentary about it.

Why? I dont know, it's been around since lightshield edgehogging came up. I guess people just havent had Doc to do it on.

There's a reason why you can't have alot of faith in pills.

I just saw that match, I couldn't believe that happened. I pressed rewind like 4 times.
Lightshielding for edgeguards must've have been around before my time at melee (I started playing about 2 years ago).

 

[Dogysamich]

I don't really get the chart idea. If one person has the advantage (whether by skill or by character), wouldn't that person win every time? Like it'd be close, but they'd still win.

Not at all. It just means what you have to look for/can abuse.

If advantaged = a win, then tiers would be absolute in every game.

__

Another way to look at it is like this

chart = considers actual players and accounts for how likely it is to do stuff.

Ratio = is basically theory fighter.

So with that being said, it's perfectly feesable to say that Doc Sheik is like, 4-6 on a chart in sheik's favor, but the ratio is actually 30-70 (I actually have mine 35-65 sheik on the chart, but 30-70 for the public).

A better contrasting example is like, Doc Zelda.

I think if you have a good Doc and Zelda play each other (equally skilled), they'll basically be even.

However, if you just look at the character to character, Zelda actually has a slight advantage over Doc.

You see what I'm saying?

This stuff is, by no means, absolute or the law. It's strictly my opinion on things and my take on matchups. So it's not like this is THE END.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Hm. That makes sense, I guess @_@

Numbers are so subjective anyway.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Numbers are stupid.

Let's decide matchups by fruit.

Marth Sheik is so bananas.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Straight. Up. Bananas.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I always thought it was more like a grapefruit. Disgusting.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I believe you have seen a comic I have also seen regarding fruit.

 

[Scidadle]

Was this that Gigabits tourney?! That guy and PBnJ did a very, very mean thing to my Dr. Mario in teams. Those *******s...

Yeah, brawl gigs.

Went and played melee, LIKE A BOSS