Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Dogysamich]

Me personally, I always just PTP in the beginning. I try to do it later every once in a while just because, but I normally just do it in the beginning.

Now, other people probably would have no problem with telling you to PTP out of range, and honestly, I have no problem saying that either. It's not a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination.

It really comes down to whatever you want. Just dont do the **** where you'll get hit.

 

[Desh]

Lol, boss gets so much distance from his PTP, o_o like shiii.

 

[otg]

is it smart to try and PTP just out of range and try to bait there attack? or do you advise using it early as possible to make sure you gain the height. and then w/e as you get closer. if you know your out of their range barely tho, you could PTP and maybe sneak past them or something... ya know?

I've actually been ****ing with this recently with mixed results. You really should just do it in the beginning imo.

 

[Strong Badam]

i gain height w/ luigi tornado. i don't have to worry about PTP
but i do it as soon as possible usually, sometimes wait. idk.

slam dunk

 

[VGmasta]

is it smart to try and PTP just out of range and try to bait there attack? or do you advise using it early as possible to make sure you gain the height. and then w/e as you get closer. if you know your out of their range barely tho, you could PTP and maybe sneak past them or something... ya know?

I could try to bait their attack from with the PTP from just outside of ledge range . But you would run the risk of failing to get the perfect tornado, getting hit out of the tornado if you are not quite out of range, or getting edgehogged for being to far out after the tornado. By the way, this is all assuming that the opponent is still standing on the stage and NOT yet grabbing the ledge. Baiting with PTP while your opponent already has the ledge runs an even higher risk!

 

[Scidadle]

Dogy, I ment outside of their attack range.

CMON IM NOT THAT DUMB

 

[Vulcan55]

Just play safe and Tornado first for recovery.
The first hit doesn't even stun.
That's bad.

 

[otg]

Dogy, I ment outside of their attack range.

CMON IM NOT THAT DUMB

Thats pretty much impossible unless you are fighting Roy or Falco, and even they if they dont plan on making it back they could just jump out and do w'e. Frankly, anytime you ptp even remotely close to the stage, you are putting yourself at risk. Even if you get close to the stage and then ptp away, they can still hit you with little to no risk.

 

[Dogysamich]

Dogy, I ment outside of their attack range.

CMON IM NOT THAT DUMB

You'd be surprised how many people intentionally try it, and you'd be surprised how many times that it's your only real option for stalling.

It's not like it DOESNT happen.

 

[SmashMac]

Yeah PTP is definitely something you want to always use first when recovering. Mixing your recovery up so that your PTP is last is not good. Given the situation where you're in your opponent's attack-range, the only reason I can think of ever using PTP next to the stage is when I'm directly under the edge and it's the only way I can get that extra height to make it back. If the opponent decides to hit me so I hit the stage, I have pretty good confidence in myself when it comes to teching. If they're going to try and spike me, I'm not too bad at meteor-canceling as well (unless it's one of those spikes you can't meteor in which case you're screwed). That's only if the situation is a viable one and that's your final chance at recovering though. But yeah, for the most part, if there's an opponent sitting there at the edge waiting for you, avoid PTPing at all cost if you can. If the opponent is not close enough to attack you however while you're PTPing next to the stage, then that's your choice.

And yeah PTP stalling can be good but yeah, everything is situational when it comes to the discussion about that. It's nice to use when you're mind-gaming the edge-hogger/edge-guarder but yeah you better be dang good at your survival tactics (meteor-canceling, edge-teching, DI). In team-matches it would be a whole different arena when it comes to that because sometimes PTP stalling has been the reason why both myself and my partner made it back to the edge/stage as opposed to just one of us.

 

[Scidadle]

You'd be surprised how many people intentionally try it, and you'd be surprised how many times that it's your only real option for stalling.

It's not like it DOESNT happen.

Yeah we're all guilty of it

 

[St. Viers]

finally have a friend's gc for a bit, so get to play melee XD--been messing around w/ edgecanceled up B, and I know it's not groundbreaking, but here's my input:

* Looks flashy as hell.

*It's not too hard to set up, especially on BF. In fact, on BF, you have 3 general areas for the bottom platforms, and 2 for the top. I'd image you have the same setups on YS and the PS, though DL64 might have too high of platforms for A (below)

_A. The ground. You can use it from the ground, go through the platform, and cancel it on the edge. It's the one that seems easiest to pull off, and leaves you least vulnerable.
_B. In the air. You have a bit more leeway in the timing/spacing to get it down, but less chance of being useful in a fight except for a gtfo move.
_C. On the platform. Easiest to perform, because you are in the most freefall (greater control of your momentum and resulting slide), which is also the downside--easiest to punish.
_D.From on the top platform, you can cancel it off the edge of the top platform, or overshoot that edge, and drift back to cancel it off the edge of the lower platform. You can also up B from under the top platform to cancel off the side.

*Also, it's a bit harder to get to cancel rather than stop on the exact edge, but you an reverse up B as well, which is much more useful most of the time.

*Doing this through people, canceling on the stage lip, and jumping back w/ a b-air/d-air is pretty sick too. I'd not use it in a match though, unless you get it wicked good--missed edge->death sucks more than missed edge->lag XD

EDIT: a practical use for this is to prevent lag from up-Bing back onto the stage--> at a certain point you can drift back, edgecancel, and be on the ledge/offstage w/o lag.

 

[TresChikon]

When should you opt for this method over a regular up+b cancel?

 

[TemPesT-]

upb cancel still has lag. if you cancel off the ledge, all lag is gone. that's all i got.

 

[St. Viers]

Also, on stages w/ platforms, plenty of docs have said they prefer upBing normally Oos, because platforms make the tech harder to punish. In a situation where it would be hard to punish before, if you positioned yourself for a edgecancel, it is now harder/now *you* can follow up your up B.

Another good point is that not everyone can upB cancel. I can't do it consistently anymore (but I think I know why)

question about the ubB cancel. I usually attempt it by upbing w/ the analog stick up and slightly to the left (imagine 11:30 on a clock). I've noticed that most of the time, when I fail to do it completely, I end w/ the analog stick at the notch between side and down, whereas when I complete it, I get the feeling I'm holding it slightly more down. Would this make a difference, and if not, any guess what I'm doing wrong, or tips on how you guys do it that seems to work more often than my 1 in like 20 (though if I get one, I'll usually get a few more)?

 

[TresChikon]

At an 11:30 angle, you'd want to hit a 5:30. The notch you're htting would be 4:30 so adjust yourself a bit lower from that. If you miss then the Up-B cancel won't register even if you get the frames right.

 

[Dogysamich]

*rolls eyes* Here's something that alot of people dont realize about up+b canceling (i had to go look through like, 3 year old threads to find this)

It's actually 3 inputs, not 2.

__
*closes photoshop* screw it, fighting game notation.

Quick crash course. *Points to keyboard* with respect to player 1 side, 5 = neutral. I'll say left and right instead of down and back

So
1 = downleft,
2 = down,
3 = downright,
4 = left,
5 = neutral,
6 = right,
7 = upleft,
8 = up,
9 = upright

looks like this
7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3
___

Ok, most people say up+b cancelling is a 2 input command, as in, you do up+b in one direction (7 (upleft) for example), and on frame four, you have to press 3(downright).

Up+a direction, down + opposite direction.

*
What got lost in translation over time is the fact that you cant ever pass through neutral while doing this (or it's recommended that you dont)

The actual input for this is

1) up+one direction (left)
2) down+THE SAME DIRECTION**(left)
3) down+the opposite direction.

** The same direction being the key part. If you go through the middle (which is what you do if you go in a straight line), you run the risk of going the opposite direction first too early, and you just up+bing the other direction instead of up+b cancelling.

It's actually talked about in alot of old, dead threads (i read one of super doodle man's posts specifically), but it just got lost in translation over time.

___

TL;DR

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3 < that's your analog stick

You guys are doing this

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3 < THIS **** IS ASKING FOR FAILURE.

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3 < DO THIS ONE INSTEAD.

I'M GOIN TO SLEEP MIKE G.

 

[Vulcan55]

I'm so hardcore, I go all the way to 6.
EDIT: Starting at 8.

 

[VGmasta]

So that's why I can't Up-B cancel... Thanks Dogy, I'll try this out!

 

[ranmaru]

I see. Hmmm... Never was a problem for me. LOL I mean, trying to moonwalk with capfal is a bit tougher than that (or I do it but just slightly).

Hmmm... but as I think about it, maybe I DO do that. I wonder if there is a way to see what exact numbers you did with your analog stick.

ALSO, why is it harder for me to upB cancel from a platform? I can do it, but just not as often on the ground lol, or maybe its just ME [yoshi's story specifically]

basically, if you go straight sometimes, can you upb cancel anyways? I know, I'm asking about something that might only be FLASHY and not really helpful in battle, but I'll be practicing in EVERY way ANYWAYS, meaning nothing will be overlooked, even powershielding. ;ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

 

[mallu000]

Thanks for that. You saved my life

 

[St. Viers]

I see. Hmmm... Never was a problem for me. LOL I mean, trying to moonwalk with capfal is a bit tougher than that (or I do it but just slightly).

moonwalking w/ capfal is much easier for me than the upB cancel XD)

ALSO, why is it harder for me to upB cancel from a platform? I can do it, but just not as often on the ground lol, or maybe its just ME [yoshi's story specifically]

I can't think why it would...>_<

basically, if you go straight sometimes, can you upb cancel anyways? I know, I'm asking about something that might only be FLASHY and not really helpful in battle, but I'll be practicing in EVERY way ANYWAYS, meaning nothing will be overlooked, even powershielding. ;ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

Yes, because I always go straight, and I can do it, you just need more timing, as you need less time to move straight across, meaning you turn too early. Also, I encourage everyone practicing PSing. That isn't flashy, it's just really good. When you can PS marth's f-air, it makes the matchup much easier, for example.

 

[ranmaru]

So far I can powershield falco's laser sometimes and Samus charge shot or uncharged shot. So I am practicing as much as I can. :]

 

[otg]

PS falco's lasers isn't that hard imo. I barely **** with the upbcancel, I'mma try that **** out. Good looks dogy.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

lol so I don't think it would be too hard for someone to implement upbc in their moveset. I was messing around with it the other day, and had wayyyy more success than I thought I would.

Does anyone know what frame the upb comes out on, I forget.

 

[Vulcan55]

Fr ee.

 

[TresChikon]

Does Doc excel in doubles with either Fox or Ganon? Or is it just mediocre like himself?

 

[VGmasta]

Does Doc excel in doubles with either Fox or Ganon? Or is it just mediocre like himself?

DJ Nintendo's Doc. and Linguini's Ganondorf got really far in teams at this recent Florida tournament. They placed third and beat a decent Jiggs+Marth team along the way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrI0syP-60k

Only a team Ganon+Jiggs (RockCrock+Hungrybox) and a team Fox+Falco (ColBol+Lambchops) placed above them.

I've also seen Homemadewaffles play as Doc really effective in teams, with a fox as his teammate I think.

 

[unknown522]

any team is good with fox.

Pound 3, raynex and I got 9th in teams switching between fox / doc and double fox.

TGMTSBCO 1, we got 9th as well, lol. We lost to hbox + exarch in losers and plank + vidjo in winners.

Doc can be really good as a stock tank in teams. His lack of range doesn't hold him back too much and he doesn't die from edgeguarding too often because of team distractions. Doc can also get some decent kills, involving the cape / smashes / f-air. He's also good at saving teammates since he's semi-floaty and can d-air / n-air / u-air / pill / up-b to save his partner in situations. He's overall pretty good, but he can still get jewed because he's doc.

 

[Dogysamich]

Doc, in teams.

*points to BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD* I mean, opinions have changed here and there, but the constant is still the same.

Doc realistically works well with anybody in teams, it comes down to how you yourself play.

Does doc go good with fox? I mean **** what DOESNT go good with fox? Im pretty sure you could put Roll in this game and she'd do very good with fox.

Ganon? Not so much, but again, it's not like he's a bad choice by any stretch of the imagination ( I mean, I like the idea that i can hold somebody and watch ganon come stomp them into a f.air)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Dogy always has the best posts.

8WR jargon ftw.

 

[Vulcan55]

I teamed with my brother Doc/Peach.
It was pretty good.

 

[Dogysamich]

8WR jargon ftw.

Funny you should say that.

I always had this "off the wall" theory that maybe some people in capcom game communities (yes, THAT specific), might not have a clue about keypad notation because the inputs in their games are always listed as qcf, hcb, and not 236 or 63214 respectively (note that im implying the arrows, not the actual digits when I talk about that).

Well, I was on SRK last week talkin to some sakura players (yes, get at me, I main Sakura/Balrog in SF4), and I was explaining to a guy how to do 1-frame dashes from FADC. I told him that his input should look like 6, 6+MP+MK instead of 6+MP+MK, 6. Guy flips out and is like "hold up hold up, What do you mean by 66? I dont understand that".

I stared at my cpu for a good five minutes like "oh dear jesus they do exist."

*shrugs* So I guess my theory was kinda right, I can only assume that the only community that REALLY knows about inputs would be 3-d fighter communities. (INSPITE OF THE FACT THAT LOL STREET FIGHTER AND KOF LIST THE **** COMMAND NORMALS IN THEIR MOVELISTS)

___

 

[Vulcan55]

I don't play 8wr games, but most info I got on 2D games were in keypad notation.
I also try not to use qcf and such because technically, you could do 896 and it's still a qcf.

 

[Lixivium]

Doc's tornado is my new favorite move

 

[Scidadle]

Guys, I don't understand.

I'm not getting any better while everyone I play with is getting better than me...

I still get ***** by my friends falcon every time we play and meanwhile a Falco player who just started taking melee seriously like less than the amount of time I've been playing is now better than me (by quite a bit)

Any tips guys?

 

[TresChikon]

Bcuz Doc is a mediocre player.

I suggest taking a break from Melee if you feel stagnant in your progress.

 

[Dogysamich]

Taking a break actually is a bad idea. (No offense tres)

__

Lets talk through some things.

1) When you sit down and play your friends, are you always trying to beat them or are you actually trying to learn?
-Do you keep running the same strat over and over, or do you attempt to try new stuff, fail or success?

2) Do you ever play some matches to win, or do you play all of them "casually."
-People gripe about m2k chaingrabbing the **** out of people in friendlies, but people are amazed how "he never misses a chaingrab". Put 2 and 2 together. He practices how he plays. All pros in all games do that. ALL of them. (Daigo practices hadoken zoning on everybody, Fatality practices spawn kill routes (whatever they're called) etc, etc0>
-Not saying you have to do it ALL the time, but if you NEVER practice that stuff on a live target, you wont be able to do it when you need to. (And sadly, you cant do it ALL the time because the smash community is prone to crying when people "play serious in casuals")

3) Do you actually practice stuff you CANT do, or do you just stick with what you know?
-This is kind of #1 reworded, but it's more for just tech in general.
-Picture this, most docs cant up+b cancel, especially when we want to. You know why? I guarantee every doc that cant up+b cancel never practices it like everything else. It's not exactly "easy" but if you want to do it, you have to practice for it. I mean, you did it with the dumb-easy stuff (wavedashing, l cancelling, yada yada).

__

There really are alot of things to getting better, but you have to start with YOU getting better. You've got a group of people to play with, so you have a great tool in live, (hopefully competent) targets.

 

[Renth]

You better watch yo back dogy ima eat cha.

/spam.

 

[TresChikon]

I was actually talking to TheIrishMafia about something he likes to call "Playing Consciously."

It kind of goes in conjunction with Dogy's #1 point.

Usually when people play, they just kind of play. But if you can invest about a minute or two each match into some deeper analysis of what's going on as in:

- Why you missed an edgeguard
- How they got past your spacing
- Why you got ***** in your shield
- Why you failed in recovering (other than playing Doc)

...you can target specific aspects of your gameplay and improve really effectively.

You might SD and miss some obvious things since you're focusing on one thing, but that's why Dogy emphasized the question on whether you're "playing to win or to playing to learn."

So it's okay to throw a few friendlies, but it'll be worth it during MM's when you're winning with your new insight.

Taking a break actually is a bad idea. (No offense tres)

Nun taken
It's a clique I see everywhere, and cliques are bad mojo, so my bad.