Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Gea]

Poor Doc would be soooo **** with not even a better range, but at least faster frame wise grab.

 

[unknown522]

he needs a longer grab and to be a foot taller.

 

[Vulcan55]

He needs his B-throw to be a Spinning Pile Driver, damage-wise too.

 

[Dogysamich]

Spinning Pile Driver-damage B.throw. That'd be so busted.

Tomorrowday I get to go to a local tourney, lol. Hoping nobody good shows up, so I can try a bunch of random BS and see how some crazy ideas i've come up with work.

Reverse b.air. I mean, half the cast already does it, why dont we? XD

(Among many other things)

 

[Vulcan55]

One grab on Sheik at 0%, SPD > Fair kill combo.
Serves you right, tier *****.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I hit with Doc's tummy to bair sometimes. It's alright.

 

[VGmasta]

You aren't playing many good high tier players are you D: -talkin bout the shield grab thing.

Maybe they aren't that good. But I can trick people into running in front of my shield. I know alot of people like to aim aerials so that they land behind me after attacking my shield. But whenever I expect them to do that, I wavedash backwards Out of Shield (OoS) into a shield so that they land in front of me. I doesn't necessarily work for every attack, but it does work.

 

[Kasumi]

I come to this board for the first time in months, and the first thing I see is my cape gif.

I love it.

Reading the 40 pages I missed now.

 

[isthattim?]

Reverse b.air. I mean, half the cast already does it, why dont we? XD

(Among many other things)

i swear you just look for 18spikes suggestions from a few months back and translate them into green text
jks

Dear good Doc players,
why does everyone say doc has an advantage over IC's
i get *****.

tips plz?

 

[Dogysamich]

He probably did mention it a while ago. I know i mentioned it sometime last year (probably earlier), but people tend to skim through alot of my stuff anyway.

But anyway. IC tips

1) F.air, f.air, and f.air again. ****ton of f.air, as it wont get you shieldgrabbed (ICs cant even Light/Full shieldgrab it, assuming you space + L cancel)

2) Pills, Pills, and more pills. If nana gets hit, go fair.

3) Dont look to do anything else unless you've already hit them. ANYTHING else you do will either make them a) wavedash in into jab mixup or b) wavedash in and punish you with a d.smash or grab. (D.smashing their shield is included in this category)

4) If you ever land a grab with both of them there, b.throw immediately. Exception to this being if you know your opponent isnt going to mashout of your grab (Why they wouldnt try is beyond me, but some people do it)

5) Last, but definitely not least. ICs have "designated" chaingrab on Doc. I made sure to ask Chudat about it when I had the chance. You still dont want to get grabbed, because you always have to assume that you'll either get wobbled from a grab, ledge chaingrabbed, or just killed from the grab (ICs are obviously one of the few characters that have a guarenteed kill from grab)

 

[anthony000]

So what's new Doc's? We won a regional yet?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i swear you just look for 18spikes suggestions from a few months back and translate them into green text
jks

Dear good Doc players,
why does everyone say doc has an advantage over IC's
i get *****.

tips plz?

haha, I just played this match up yesterday. I think doc has a slight advantage.

Dogy is right. Fair alot. Butttt don't get predictable, ICs have many ways to beat fair. SH bair, fair, wd back fsmash. You want to be fairing them when they are in their shield. Jab dsmash, or just dsmash works well after fair. If they shield both they may try to come in with WD > something right after. But from my experience, as long as you are ready for it, they wont be fast enough to punish. You can just shield, wd back or even SH fair while DIing away. SH fair while DIing away catches them if they try to roll towards you as well so it's pretty beast.

I like grabbing them alot too. I never tried dogy's bthrow thing. Though that makes alot of sense. I usually go for the dthrow > fair. Which ***** them at the percents that it works at. I was never interrupted out of it by the other ic e climber ever time i tried.

Watch out for random wd fsmash/dsmash/jab>grab. These are deadly and come at you really quick. I started to shield alot more, I can shield grab or wd punish oos the smashes. And if they try to jab grab, I have been fairly successful with just buffering a roll out of the way. Those random wd IC smashes are very terrifying because I usually never expect them to come and DI terribly. And edgeguarding doc is fairly simple for ics. Dsmash beats doc sweet spot, leading to low percent kills.

Um, I think ice block spam beats pill spam. Or maybe I'm just spamming wrong but I always seem to get hit by their ice blocks when we try to outspam each other. Also, I get ***** by relyin on pill spam at times. [I think it's because i am spacing them wrong/fullhop pilling too much] If the ICs call the pill and you didn't space it correctly, they can do the same thing that they do with falcos lasers. WD into the pill doing some sort of attack. Only one of the ice climbers will get hit, while the other will still be moving forward with the attack potentially hitting you.

Though I haven't tried this out, I think cape would be pretty good in the matchup.

I do have some trouble in this match up. What do you do when you are above ICs. Uair has been ****** me. And when I lose my jump, I get juggled atleast 2-3 times before hitting the ground.

I also suck at edgeguarding. When ICs do it right, they don't lag when they come back from squall hammer, and it's somewhat hard to punish because they can DI mindgame with the recovery, kind of like what falcons do. Except they are much better at it, since a hit box surrounds them and they have no lag. Some tips on this would be appreciated.

edit: ice climbers are pretty easy to money shot

 

[Gea]

Let me summarize:

Don't get grabbed.

Actually in all seriousness just learn the range of their smashes. That is way more important as that is what is going to mess you up.

 

[JPOBS]

but it more like the range of their wavedash into smash. which is a freakin long distance. its like half of yoshis and a third of pretty much everywhere else.

its not so much learning the range as it is finding ways to protect when you are within reach (which will be often if you ever intend on you know, fighting them. )

 

[Desh]

I just play peach when i play ice climbers. ^_^

 

[VGmasta]

Thanks for the Ice Climbers matchup tips Dogy and Macman! My opponent knows how to play as every top and high tier in the game pretty well. The wavedashing (WD) out of shield (OoS) to grab or smash attack from the ICs is devastating.

 

[Roman.]

platform camp too

bair > ic

 

[#HBC | Mac]

lolwut?

yur back in the doc forums?

 

[ranmaru]

I just play peach when i play ice climbers. ^_^

Hahahaha dsmash dsmash dsmash. Good idea. lol

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I think up b mite be one of doc's best moves.

 

[Vulcan55]

Of course.
You can't recover without it.

 

[St. Viers]

Of course.
You can't recover without it.

I think he means that it's doable OOS, is fast, is cancelable, can be used under platforms to mix up where yo'u end up, and if it hits and is canceled or backwards, has enough knockback to be safe.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I've been finding so many uses for it lately. For instance. if fox starts to dair into you, dont even bother shielding. Just up b. It trades hits and at lower percents u can combo him out of it :D. wayyyy more that ive got and working on. I think I can change the metagame with this XD

 

[KirbyKaze]

Up+B as a... defensive... move?

Does it do 30 damage?

Up+B to trade with Fox Nair at low percent into a grab might be really funny though.

 

[Vulcan55]

That'd be hard unless the Foxes you play all jump in with full hops.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

-_-. I'm obviously wasting my time.

 

[St. Viers]

-_-. I'm obviously wasting my time.

why do you say that, fiction?

 

[KirbyKaze]

-_-. I'm obviously wasting my time.

If you actually could trade an Up+B with a Nair you could probably get a chain grab if you're at low percent. That would definitely be worth it.

 

[JPOBS]

if you can consistently pull of **** combos and find good uses for the upB and get it on tape, post em here and maybe u will change the metagame :0

i guess..

 

[Dogysamich]

I've been finding so many uses for it lately. For instance. if fox starts to dair into you, dont even bother shielding. Just up b. It trades hits and at lower percents u can combo him out of it :D. wayyyy more that ive got and working on. I think I can change the metagame with this XD

-_-. I'm obviously wasting my time.

Na, you're actually not. You're actually talking about stuff smashmac mentioned a long time ago.

Your problem actually comes from 2 things.

1) Actually calling a d.air instead of a n.air or any kind of feign (SH Shine, DJ, etc etc). Guessing wrong leaves you in a pretty punishable position.

2) Getting said trade to actually happen. Your criteria for this happening requires for them to actually do a d.air. Realistically, if a fox wants to beat this, all they have to do is simply NOT d.air. Now I know it sounds like Im playing theory fighter at this point, but you have to realize that if fox is close enough to d.air, he's close enough to shine, which is yet another option that alot of people choose to do.
-All of that considered, you're assuming they dont DI out of the up+b, which is entirely possible.
-AND EVEN THEN, since the up+b has landing lag (unless you can manage to get an up+b cancel for this, which is another discussion in itself), you still run the risk of getting punished from the up+b. (Again, that's under the assumption that you dont get golden trade, which would mean you just got a "clean" up+b).

___

You're not wrong in your thinkin in all. It's just you actually run alot of risk to it. The problem is really you're risk can actually come from you "successfully" doing landing your attack rather than trading.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Na, you're actually not. You're actually talking about stuff smashmac mentioned a long time ago.

Your problem actually comes from 2 things.

1) Actually calling a d.air instead of a n.air or any kind of feign (SH Shine, DJ, etc etc). Guessing wrong leaves you in a pretty punishable position.

2) Getting said trade to actually happen. Your criteria for this happening requires for them to actually do a d.air. Realistically, if a fox wants to beat this, all they have to do is simply NOT d.air. Now I know it sounds like Im playing theory fighter at this point, but you have to realize that if fox is close enough to d.air, he's close enough to shine, which is yet another option that alot of people choose to do.
-All of that considered, you're assuming they dont DI out of the up+b, which is entirely possible.
-AND EVEN THEN, since the up+b has landing lag (unless you can manage to get an up+b cancel for this, which is another discussion in itself), you still run the risk of getting punished from the up+b. (Again, that's under the assumption that you dont get golden trade, which would mean you just got a "clean" up+b).

___

You're not wrong in your thinkin in all. It's just you actually run alot of risk to it. The problem is really you're risk can actually come from you "successfully" doing landing your attack rather than trading.

I dont think you get it lol. This works with fox's nair, dash attack, bair and a variety of other moves from other chars as well. When you "trade hits" they go up from the first 2 coins or so with a bunch of hitstun and your animation looks like a crouch cancel sorta. They can't DI out its like 2 coins. You don't guess wrong. You react to it. Trust me I'm finding out a lot with this.

 

[otg]

It seeems to me a trade of 2 hits from an upB for a 14%+ aerial move is not worth it.

 

[Gea]

Unless you can combo but something tells me the risk/reward isn't worth it. Will test.

 

[St. Viers]

^^risk goes down w/ practice---just throwing that out there

 

[Desh]

it doesnt really go down with practice when wether or not you get a combo depends on wether or not the fox is stupid enough to get caught in it.

-_-
I dont get why ya just can't dd, bait grabs, cg, gimp, cc ****, etc.

I mean, sure it would be cool to pull of that stuff, but realistically if your playing someone good, half of it doesnt work. More than half. It's not like a lot of this silly stuff hasnt been talked about bunches of times too.

Idk i sound like an *** right now. I guess s'all good. At least the doc boards have discussion.

On a side note, google chromes spell check is so useless. It just makes me question my spelling, and gives me correction suggestions that dont even start with the same letter...or words like half or double the length that I've typed.

Rage.


edit: ohya, so i said a long time ago you can cc fox's nair and smash before he shines.
I stand by it still. It works on raynex and he obviously isnt an inconsistent fox. So I dont think missed Lcancels and FF's are the reason for it working so many times that he switched to approaching almost entirely to dair IIRC.

I think it has to do with the type of nair though. By that I mean, a late nair, or a stale one coming in.
I guess I shall inquire. But I haven't the slightest doubt that it works.

 

[Dogysamich]

I dont think you get it lol.

No, I actually do get it. I mean, I said it would work.

Again, the risk comes from if you DONT trade, whether you wiff or you just get a clean up+b. Either way, you should get punished for it. And you're more likely to beat either a n.air or

Trust me, you're not talking about anything new, you're really just talking about an old $mac tactic. And again, it's not like it DOESNT work.

 

[otg]

I just don't like the idea of trying to "TRADE HITS" with Doc's upB.... they will start baiting that and it's not like Doc's upB is safe after he enters the free fall animation. Thats just askin for a fox to intentionally misspace a Nair, bait the UpB, and than proceed to **** you in the most horrible way imaginable (especially if he hits you while you are still in the freefall animation).

On a side note, I know this is NOT new at all, but it's something I don't see people doing. Out of the dthrow CG on spacies, if they try to DI behind you, you can turn around dsmash for a sexy KO. I also had something else really useful to report but I can't think of it now, so I'll update more when I remember.

 

[RaynEX]

edit: ohya, so i said a long time ago you can cc fox's nair and smash before he shines.
I stand by it still. It works on raynex and he obviously isnt an inconsistent fox. So I dont think missed Lcancels and FF's are the reason for it working so many times that he switched to approaching almost entirely to dair IIRC.

I think it has to do with the type of nair though. By that I mean, a late nair, or a stale one coming in.
I guess I shall inquire. But I haven't the slightest doubt that it works.

If Fox does a low nair, he can shine before your dsmash comes out. Its just easier to throw out dairs than jumping in with late aerials. Its risky.

 

[otg]

Ok, I remember what I was going to talk about now. I don't know if you guys noticed this, but Doc's jab is too strong for a Forced get up. At lower % it seems fine but after like 20%+ , your opponent will roll in whatever direction they were holding/get up attack on top of the forced get up. Now granted, this isn't that big a deal, in that you can still follow the roll for a free punish, and you can just shield the get up attack and punish with w'e, but still its lame that you have to call out their reaction instead of having the forced get up like everyone else.

Can anyone else confirm this? I tend to notice this a lot, and I'm wondering if perhaps there is a better option to guarantee the forced get up. What do you all think? The one thing I was considering is using the cape, but I'm not sure if that technically counts.

 

[JPOBS]

i've also noticed thst the jab is strogn and allows for rolls.

but cant ALL jab resets be rolled out of after a certain percent? tis what i though anyway