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Custom Moveset Discussion

Initial thoughts on custom moves?

  • They should be unrestricted for now

    Votes: 221 88.0%
  • They should be restricted until we learn more

    Votes: 30 12.0%

  • Total voters
    251
  • Poll closed .

Fafnir

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While I'd like to see custom moves incorporated into competitive play, if there comes a point where a single custom move needs to be banned, every single one of them should be banned. Complex bans are clunky and bad for the community, since they make it harder for newer players to become involved, and add another logistical nightmare to a game that can already be hard to manage for TOs.

That said, nothing looks so incredibly abusive as to warrant a ban yet, and running custom moves should be done as the standard approach for now. It's a lot harder to un-ban something than it is to ban them.
 

Theguesst

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So I got an idea to throw out there. The power versions of up b customs tend to have high power and/or more vertical recovery, reducing recovery ability AND speeding up kills. If the edge game tends to be too unpredictable and unrewarding and matches take too long I think making power up b's required would be a good option to fix that.
 

Shaya

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If we have to routinely limit Custom specials of a specific type across the board, than we're better off banning Custom specials.
Making a character "better" is a lot easy to discern from statistics than "makes the game better or worse".
 

Gea

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The only reason they'd be worth banning is if they are overcentralizing. For now there is little to no indication any of them are. In fact, most people's concerns have to do with unlocking methodology more than anything else.
 

Shaya

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Well what's overcentralising? Should all custom specials be played on a character to not be considered overcentralising? For "lower tier" characters, they likely only have a single best choice. Let's say a specific character is overcentralising, is it because of their custom specials? Are they "fine" without it? (really hard to tell).

The truth of it all is that if questions and issues keep coming up in the way of Custom specials, then the fact there are over 600 specials means this will be overwhelming to deal with without obtrusive/hard to remember surgical changes.
 
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Ryuutakeshi

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One question I don't think is being asked enough is "should [character] be limited to their default specials despite their custom moves providing better/more options simply because those were chosen to be their default moves?"

I personally don't think they should and I haven't seen any special moves that are overpowered compared to all other special moves or are heavily game-breaking. If a move helps a character, then they should be able to use it.
 

Thinkaman

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While I'd like to see custom moves incorporated into competitive play, if there comes a point where a single custom move needs to be banned, every single one of them should be banned.
Absolutely, with a very narrow exception.

If a move is a problem in a discrete way, we can ban it. This would be something that:
  • Freezes the game
  • Is an infinite on the entire cast
  • Has an unambiguously game-ending bug
In these cases and only these, we can reach a clear community consensus that the problem move is unambiguously flawed, incompatible with the existing rules of competitive play, and worth a specific ban it without confusion or controversy.

That said, this seems increasingly unlikely with every passing day. We have recorded footage of every custom move in the game, and while we have seen some glitches, they are non-game-breaking, and most of these are on default specials!

One question I don't think is being asked enough is "should [character] be limited to their default specials despite their custom moves providing better/more options simply because those were chosen to be their default moves?"

I personally don't think they should and I haven't seen any special moves that are overpowered compared to all other special moves or are heavily game-breaking. If a move helps a character, then they should be able to use it.
I agree; it seems semi-arbitrary to penalize Ike and Samus just because their weaker options happen to be their defaults.

If we ban custom specials, we should logically ban default specials too.

(I'm gonna cover my rear and say that's a reductio ad absurdum joke.)
 

DrakeRowan

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NinjaLink

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You're missing Peach unfortunately. (I didn't want to ask while I was in chat as I thought you already done her before I got there). Scratch that. I'm dumb. She's right at the bottom.

Awesome job compiling them though. I had fun watching the stream <3.
She was there but i had to reupload it cause of misinformation about her up-b 3 so I added footage about that move. Sorry for the confusion.
 

Tristan_win

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You know I can't believe I'm saying this but after watching all of the custom move videos I feel custom moves are even better then what I hoped. There's just so many imaginative alterations that I can't help but feel we got like a extra 5+ characters.
 

NinjaLink

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You know I can't believe I'm saying this but after watching all of the custom move videos I feel custom moves are even better then what I hoped. There's just so many imaginative alterations that I can't help but feel we got like a extra 5+ characters.
This is what I want to hear from everyone.
 

Gea

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Well what's overcentralising? Should all custom specials be played on a character to not be considered overcentralising? For "lower tier" characters, they likely only have a single best choice. Let's say a specific character is overcentralising, is it because of their custom specials? Are they "fine" without it? (really hard to tell).

The truth of it all is that if questions and issues keep coming up in the way of Custom specials, then the fact there are over 600 specials means this will be overwhelming to deal with without obtrusive/hard to remember surgical changes.
Overcentralizing meaning the custom move changes the way the game is played. For example, take the previously mentioned GW hammer. If in theory that it was so strong that it was more effective for GW to only use judgment over and over and the match becomes nothing but that... and it's effective enough to be a dominant strategy, that becomes overcentralizing.

You're overthinking it. When something is overcentralizing, it breaks the game in a way that cannot be avoided. If a recovery option lead to planking and it became the dominant strategy of the match to stall, that becomes overcentralizing. Nothing has been seen to even suggest these have the potential to do that.
 

EdreesesPieces

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Yep, I've actually been convinced. Kudos everyone. Let's not restrict custom moves until we learn more about them--some builds may end up being Metaknight levels of broken, but let's also keep build switching something done by the loser as part of their counterpicking to avoid a situation where the winner of game one switches to a strong build to clinch the set in two games. That just kills competitive hype.
If multiple builds for multiple characters are as broken at Metaknight, it's not actually broken because it puts them on an event playing field. Lets say, in Brawl, Metaknight is Metaknight. Let's say his regular move set was just as good as his custom move set. But let's say, oh, Snake or Marth or someone, had a custom move set that let them 0 to death a few characters. Sounds broken, but what if one of those characters is Metaknight? Now the entire game becomes more balanced become someone has a really good custom move set.

Custom move sets have massive potential to balance the game more than using all standard move sets. Every single tournament player would have optimized their custom move set to the one that works best against Metaknight.

My prediction is the custom move sets Smash4 players will use after a year or two the most are those that work best against the top tiers. Personally, if a custom move lets me combo a low tier, I won't care to learn it or practice with it much, but if it helps me KO the best character in the game, you bet I'm going to use it and abuse it.

Well what's overcentralising? Should all custom specials be played on a character to not be considered overcentralising? For "lower tier" characters, they likely only have a single best choice. Let's say a specific character is overcentralising, is it because of their custom specials? Are they "fine" without it? (really hard to tell).

The truth of it all is that if questions and issues keep coming up in the way of Custom specials, then the fact there are over 600 specials means this will be overwhelming to deal with without obtrusive/hard to remember surgical changes.
I disagree that lower tier characters only will have one choice. From what I have seen of them, the best custom special will depend who your opponent is - both their character and their playstyle. Your optimal choice will be if they are aggressive or campy, heavy or light, etc. Example: Peach's heavy custom turnips deal 20% which sounds pretty crazy until you find out how weak sauce the range is and how slow it comes out. I imagine the heavy turnips will be good against heavier characters and the light faster long ranged ones (also a custom) will be good against faster characters. On the opposite side, if you play campy characters, having a super fast turnip that has extra long range but deals very low damage is useful. I already can envision witch matchup's I'd prefer which specials, and even if Peach is low tier, it won't change the fact that I'll probably want to change my turnip custom depending on the opponent.

Truth is we don't know enough about them to ban them. I just think so far the evidence to me doesn't show a single reason why they should be banned. These fears don't have evidence behind them. Intead of theory-izing, can someone name a custom special which they think deserves to be banned and show some video evidence of why its to bad?

Otherwise, I will say let me ban Greninja because I dont like the idea of Greninja, he seems annoying. Afterall, we get to ban things we don't like the idea of without evidence apparantly.
 
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NinjaLink

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We need to spread this as much as possible to show how fair these moves are and so players can be informed on what these does and wont be randomly confused come tourney time.

I also came across that certain custom moves affects other moves the character has. So far the spacies lasers seems to change the shots from their throws. Need to test if theres an alternate for that. One of Sonics customs affects his other moves as well. Biggest one is olimar but thats mainly because it affects his pikmin.
 

MajorMajora

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Something I realized that could solve the "What if a system doesn't have all the customs". Well, each person brings their own 3ds with whatever customs they've unlocked. And if it's on WiiU? System transfer with your own 3ds.
 

RWB

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Just want to add something to NinjaLink:

Mii Swordsman's Shuriken isn't quite as bad as you made it out to be. It's an attack that increases in stun, knockback and damage with range, meaning it's useless if you close in too much. Munching Orange's video of him showed that.

Still the bad overall range on it is pretty bad.
 

san.

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I think we can use a courtesy approach in the initial months of the Wii U version by announcing what custom moves you'll possibly be using in the tournament thread to ensure that a few setups may have them.
 

S2

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Initially my knee jerk reaction was to keep them out of competition, much like how items are off due to balance concerns. It's easier to just ban them without giving them a chance since it's different than what we've been accustomed to in Melee over the last decade of competitive rules. But after watching some videos I feel like they have the potential to open a lot of new options and different styles for characters. Items were problematic due to their strength and the random nature of which appear and where they appear, custom moves should be evaluated as their own thing.

My vote is to allow them initially until they prove themselves to be a balance problem. The potential is that some normally low tier characters may have variations that make them actually useful. Of course the opposite concern is that a few custom movesets end up being so imbalanced that it turns their characters into something akin the Metaknight complaints in Brawl.

As mentioned already, it's probably easier to either outright allow or ban all customs instead of going through the logistical nightmare of picking and choosing which ones are allowed. I'm willing to give them a fair chance at competitive play. If a few custom movesets end up being way too imbalanced as proven by some actual tournament data, then yeah, banning them would probably be the right choice.
 

NinjaLink

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Just want to add something to NinjaLink:

Mii Swordsman's Shuriken isn't quite as bad as you made it out to be. It's an attack that increases in stun, knockback and damage with range, meaning it's useless if you close in too much. Munching Orange's video of him showed that.

Still the bad overall range on it is pretty bad.
Yea its meh lol

For now all I can say is, I wouldnt mind not having customs right away being the game is fresh but maybe a month in or so we can apply these custom moves. Some characters I feel needs it, Samus being one of them. Specials kinda made her and since theres an overall projectile nerf, she has to have some creative ways to use it.
 

rpgcaster

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I'm happy that it seems like most of the community is accepting of the idea of custom moves. I feel like it's a shame to outright cut off a part of the game that really doesn't seem random/broken, and honestly there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of harm in allowing them from the start. Why cull a problem without even knowing if it's a problem yet? XD

Though in all honesty, I'm bias cause I plan to main Palutena ^^;
 

-RedX-

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If all you can do is copy custom characters made on the 3DS rather than copy every single custom move data, that means Wii Us still need to unlock all the customs for players who don't own a 3DS.
I hope this isn't the case.
 

Davis-Lightheart

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If all you can do is copy custom characters made on the 3DS rather than copy every single custom move data, that means Wii Us still need to unlock all the customs for players who don't own a 3DS.
I hope this isn't the case.
But, I thought it was assumed that would always be the case. The options were always for 3Ds and Wii U connectivity.

And besides, people with friends could always just ask them to use thei 3Ds to trade.
 
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Chiroz

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If all you can do is copy custom characters made on the 3DS rather than copy every single custom move data, that means Wii Us still need to unlock all the customs for players who don't own a 3DS.
I hope this isn't the case.
If you copy your custom character he will already have the custom moves that you use.
 

Untouch

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As a ganon main, I'll be really sad if movesets aren't allow because they move ganon way up in viability.
 

Morbi

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The comparison has been drawn many times before, but custom-moves are no different than selecting an ultra or assist prior to the match. So far, after seeing thirty plus character's custom-moves, I am fairly convinced that nothing is game-breaking. Obviously we shall see if that sentiment holds true with time; however, restricting custom-moves in general would certainly be a step-backwards. I am an advocate of banning one or two customs that the community deems "broken" rather than outright banning them all. The game is more interesting and MU intensive with them on, that only helps the meta-game.
 

GeZ

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So has anyone thought of the ramifications of custom moves creating too much variability in competitive play? Other fighting games have had characters with custom moves, but it's almost always resulted in them being banned because it makes character interaction too complex, which I'm inclined to think will happen here.

I just don't see how this doesn't seem like a headache to many other people. Like you approach Mario as Marth. You have to think how he'll defend, whether that involves him just shielding or using normals or specials, which is normal procedure until you realize that his fireball/ cape/ FLUD/ Up B could all be one of three versions of themselves.

The difference between choosing ultras or assists before match is the scale. This affects every aspect of the match. It would almost be better if there was a *best* set of moves because that means that's what the character will always run. Otherwise there's just too much there.

/2cents
 
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Morbi

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So has anyone thought of the ramifications of custom moves creating too much variability in competitive play? Other fighting games have had characters with custom moves, but it's almost always resulted in them being banned because it makes character interaction too complex, which I'm inclined to think will happen here.

I just don't see how this doesn't seem like a headache to many other people. Like you approach Mario as Marth. You have to think how he'll defend, whether that involves him just shielding or using normals or specials, which is normal procedure until you realize that his fireball/ cape/ FLUD/ Up B could all be one of three versions of themselves.

The difference between choosing ultras or assists before match is the scale. This affects every aspect of the match. It would almost be better if there was a *best* set of moves because that means that's what the character will always run. Otherwise there's just too much there.

/2cents
If people cannot keep track of two different variations of the same move; they are not competent enough to compete in a meaningful way. Most of the custom moves affect either the speed, size, or type of hitbox. I would be more concerned if you could use custom normals to be honest. Specials are only used for four of your attacks, one of which is almost always utilized exclusively for recovery. That being said, you should probably actually look at the customs your opponent is using prior to the match so that you know how to approach.

I do agree that it could be a problem in certain circumstances, but overall, if we want more characters to be viable, we are going to have to learn more match-ups anyways. It does not seem as though it is too much more to keep track of. There are three variations of assist moves in Marvel and assists are just as, if not more, vital than your specials in Smash; albeit, there is usually a dominant assist anyways. But the option is there for those who want to take advantage of it.

/50cent
 
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Bladeviper

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So has anyone thought of the ramifications of custom moves creating too much variability in competitive play? Other fighting games have had characters with custom moves, but it's almost always resulted in them being banned because it makes character interaction too complex, which I'm inclined to think will happen here.

I just don't see how this doesn't seem like a headache to many other people. Like you approach Mario as Marth. You have to think how he'll defend, whether that involves him just shielding or using normals or specials, which is normal procedure until you realize that his fireball/ cape/ FLUD/ Up B could all be one of three versions of themselves.

The difference between choosing ultras or assists before match is the scale. This affects every aspect of the match. It would almost be better if there was a *best* set of moves because that means that's what the character will always run. Otherwise there's just too much there.

/2cents
but in this case for most of the cast the moves don't act too different than the stranded ones and as long as the moves are not blind pick it should be fine since you at least know what they will be using
 

-RedX-

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If you copy your custom character he will already have the custom moves that you use.
Right. But what about players who are strictly Wii U players? They would need to borrow a 3DS with all customs unlocked to make their moveset of choice. This may or may not be a problem depending on how the community handles this.
 

Morbi

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Right. But what about players who are strictly Wii U players? They would need to borrow a 3DS with all customs unlocked to make their moveset of choice. This may or may not be a problem depending on how the community handles this.
I agree, hopefully the community handles this by just using the default move-set if they do not want to bring their own set-up. :4jigglypuff:
 

GeZ

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If it's not a mess that'd be cool. It'll be unfortunate if that's how it turns out. Either way I won't be playing this game competitively. All the changes seem to fit this theme of "make it less technically demanding but then bring the complexity back to what it was when it was all tech skill" and I kind of prefer Melee and P:M's system for that. Hope it's fun, but there's a very slim chance it's something I follow.

Now to contribute to the actual conversation

Most of the custom moves affect either the speed, size, or type of hitbox.
If they have better hitboxes Marth has to approach differently. If they're bigger they may cut off avenues of approach. If they're faster they may stop certain methods for pressuring/ approaching/ poking.
 
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Chiroz

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Right. But what about players who are strictly Wii U players? They would need to borrow a 3DS with all customs unlocked to make their moveset of choice. This may or may not be a problem depending on how the community handles this.
The TO gets 1 3DS which has all custom moves unlocked and transfers them to each Wii U. Even if you can only transfer specific created "builds" it will only take 2 transfers to transfer all 8 moves from a character. Thus with 94 transfers you can fill your Wii U with all possible custom moves. Even if transferring 1 character took half a minute that means that in 50 minutes you could have all custom moves on a Wii U. That's less time and effort than unlocking all characters to be honest.
 
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Unbounded

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So has anyone thought of the ramifications of custom moves creating too much variability in competitive play? Other fighting games have had characters with custom moves, but it's almost always resulted in them being banned because it makes character interaction too complex, which I'm inclined to think will happen here.

I just don't see how this doesn't seem like a headache to many other people. Like you approach Mario as Marth. You have to think how he'll defend, whether that involves him just shielding or using normals or specials, which is normal procedure until you realize that his fireball/ cape/ FLUD/ Up B could all be one of three versions of themselves.

The difference between choosing ultras or assists before match is the scale. This affects every aspect of the match. It would almost be better if there was a *best* set of moves because that means that's what the character will always run. Otherwise there's just too much there.

/2cents
Honestly reading that just made me really excited about what surprises are in store for us.
 

allshort17

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The TO gets 1 3DS which has all custom moves unlocked and transfers them to each Wii U. Even if you can only transfer specific created "builds" it will only take 2 transfers to transfer all 8 moves from a character. Thus with 94 transfers you can fill your Wii U with all possible custom moves. Even if transferring 1 character took half a minute that means that in 50 minutes you could have all custom moves on a Wii U. That's less time and effort than unlocking all characters to be honest.
Mixed builds would require more transfers though. Say I wanted to play a 1/3/2/1 Dedede. That build has to already be on the Wii U or a 3DS needs to be readily available if the customs aren't unlock. I agree that customs are easy to move. I just wanted to point out that you're probably not transferring custom move data, but a single character build.
 
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