Custom Moveset Discussion

[Chiroz]

Mixed builds would require more transfers though. Say I wanted to play a 1/3/2/1 Dedede. That build has to already be on the Wii U or a 3DS needs to be readily available if the customs aren't unlock. I agree that customs are easy to move. I just wanted to point out that you're probably not transferring custom move data, but a single character build.

Yea but the moves would unlock as you transfer them. Or are we assuming the game will let you play with some moves and not unlock them?

Because I think the former is much more probable than the latter. What if, say, I transfer a Dr. Mario, will I be able to play him even though you don't have him unlocked? How does that work?

I think it's probably just going to unlock everything you transfer that the home console doesn't have (thus also allowing people who have bought both systems to readily transfer all their unlocked characters and not have to re-unlock them). That just means that you need to make 2 builds for every character.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm glad the consensus is on unrestricted because wow do custom moves make Ganondorf look even more fun. I lost it at the Down-B Blue Divekick shenanigans. I can't wait.

 

[Thinkaman]

Even if moves can only transfer temporarily (as individual profiles) and there is in fact no easy or fast way to unlock moves permanently, it's still quite manageable.

Because most hardcore smash players with a WiiU will have unlocked everything, most setups will probably have everything unlocked.

For those that do not have everything, they still have some moves unlocked (most likely those for the most popular characters) and it's possible that the most popular moveset profiles have already been transfered--including if a player has played on that setup at any point previously.

Finally, if we absolutely must, we can transfer a profile as long as SOMEONE at the entire event has a fully unlocked 3DS.

The bottom line is, even in this outcome, we have a good average case and acceptable worst case for time required.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not to mention several people have all the customs unlocked on the Japanese version and it's not even 2 weeks past the release date. The Wii U version will be fine.

 

[Chiroz]

Not to mention several people have all the customs unlocked on the Japanese version and it's not even 2 weeks past the release date. The Wii U version will be fine.

Yes, but you honestly don't expect a TO to spend months on different setups unlocking them all or him somehow finding enough setups of players who have them all unlocked. With characters it was easy to spend 6-7 hours unlocking everything. It seems like custom moves need like 30-40 hours of gameplay which is much more.

Still I am fairly certain that they will unlock upon transfer which means that all it takes is 1 3DS with all custom moves unlocked and less than an hour to "unlock" all moves on a Wii U.

 

[BlueGardevoir]

dont know if anyone already posted this already but... I think we will be able to transfer customized chars with amiibos (from 3ds to wii u) ...just saying

 

[Scala]

I'm not sure what's been said in this thread already but I've always thought that custom moves should be banned until the WiiU Smash release. Once WiiU Smash exists, custom moves should be banned on WiiU and allowed for 3ds (as side tournaments)

 

[Chiroz]

I'm not sure what's been said in this thread already but I've always thought that custom moves should be banned until the WiiU Smash release. Once WiiU Smash exists, custom moves should be banned on WiiU and allowed for 3ds (as side tournaments)

Have you done any research or have any reason as to why?

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm not sure what's been said in this thread already but I've always thought that custom moves should be banned until the WiiU Smash release. Once WiiU Smash exists, custom moves should be banned on WiiU and allowed for 3ds (as side tournaments)

Should we do the same for new characters?

 

[Scala]

My reasoning isn't because custom moves might be unfit for competitive play, but because they will likely be a headache (or time consuming) on WiiU for each player to configure every match. For 3DS events everyone should have their own system with their own configurations set up prior so from a time/complexity standpoint, it'd be more reasonable.

It's hard to say anything for sure until the WiiU version comes out but this is just the hunch I have.

 

[Jaxas]

My reasoning isn't because custom moves might be unfit for competitive play, but because they will likely be a headache (or time consuming) on WiiU for each player to configure every match. For 3DS events everyone should have their own system with their own configurations set up prior so from a time/complexity standpoint, it'd be more reasonable.

It's hard to say anything for sure until the WiiU version comes out but this is just the hunch I have.

We don't know enough about picking customs on the WiiU version to say one way or another yet, however I think that it'll probably be quick and easy like in the 3DS version. Again though, we'll have to wait and see on that.

However, even if it does take forever, why ban the customs on the 3DS until the WiiU version is released? What would the purpose of that be?

 

[Fafnir]

To split the Smash community up as much as possible, as that is surely the best method to ensure a healthy, long lived community!

 

[Chiroz]

My reasoning isn't because custom moves might be unfit for competitive play, but because they will likely be a headache (or time consuming) on WiiU for each player to configure every match. For 3DS events everyone should have their own system with their own configurations set up prior so from a time/complexity standpoint, it'd be more reasonable.

It's hard to say anything for sure until the WiiU version comes out but this is just the hunch I have.

If that's your reason then why would you ban them from 3DS tournaments? Also why would it remain as a side-event for 3DS tournaments?

There's a way to transfer your settings from your 3DS to the Wii U, there's also a way to use your 3DS as a controller for Smash Wii U. I am betting that there's a way to select your customs from your own 3DS to play on the Wii U once they are synched. Depending on how long takes to synch a 3DS and a Wii U this might actually not be a problem at all. Just allow customs for those who bring their 3DS along them to the tournament.

A new type of BYOC. Bring your own customs.

 

[Scala]

We don't know enough about picking customs on the WiiU version to say one way or another yet, however I think that it'll probably be quick and easy like in the 3DS version. Again though, we'll have to wait and see on that.

However, even if it does take forever, why ban the customs on the 3DS until the WiiU version is released? What would the purpose of that be?

First off I don't think picking customs on 3DS is as quick as everyone says it is. From what I've seen you have to back out of the character select screen and go to a separate screen to configure a "loadout". You can pick loadouts on the character select screen but not create a new loadout. It's a shame, I wish it was more efficient like MvC where you can pick your options right then and there.

Basically I don't think that custom moves will be time efficient on the WiiU version and they won't be tournament viable because of that. Sure a player could bring a 3ds or amiibo but I don't think it's fair to assume that all players will want to purchase one of these. Even the amiibo's usefulness hinges on that player owning a WiiU themselves which definitely isn't always the case.

When both versions of the game are out I think the WiiU will remain customless for reasons stated above but 3DS custom move side tournaments will be run because players who enter acknowledge the responsibility of owning a 3DS and unlocking the custom moves themselves.

As for before the WiiU version comes out, I just think customs should be banned on 3DS because that's what I think will happen on WiiU. Also I think there'll be 3DS system sharing and the likes going on and I think we should be minimizing issues with custom moves not being available or whatnot.

That's my $0.02

 

[SonicZeroX]

First off I don't think picking customs on 3DS is as quick as everyone says it is. From what I've seen you have to back out of the character select screen and go to a separate screen to configure a "loadout". You can pick loadouts on the character select screen but not create a new loadout. It's a shame, I wish it was more efficient like MvC where you can pick your options right then and there.

Actually I think if you press X or Y in the loadout screen it lets you edit them, so you don't need to back out and set things up outside of the character select screen.

 

[Chiroz]

First off I don't think picking customs on 3DS is as quick as everyone says it is. From what I've seen you have to back out of the character select screen and go to a separate screen to configure a "loadout". You can pick loadouts on the character select screen but not create a new loadout. It's a shame, I wish it was more efficient like MvC where you can pick your options right then and there.

Basically I don't think that custom moves will be time efficient on the WiiU version and they won't be tournament viable because of that. Sure a player could bring a 3ds or amiibo but I don't think it's fair to assume that all players will want to purchase one of these. Even the amiibo's usefulness hinges on that player owning a WiiU themselves which definitely isn't always the case.

When both versions of the game are out I think the WiiU will remain customless for reasons stated above but 3DS custom move side tournaments will be run because players who enter acknowledge the responsibility of owning a 3DS and unlocking the custom moves themselves.

As for before the WiiU version comes out, I just think customs should be banned on 3DS because that's what I think will happen on WiiU. Also I think there'll be 3DS system sharing and the likes going on and I think we should be minimizing issues with custom moves not being available or whatnot.

That's my $0.02

You can create new loadouts right on the CSS. Ninja-Link creates new loadouts in less than 20 seconds on his videos. Picking a pre-existing load out takes less than 3 seconds. Tournaments already have a BOYC rule, applying another one for a 13 bucks figurine isn't that big of a deal. If you don't want to buy the 13 bucks figurine and if you can't find a friend with a 3DS that has the custom moves you want to use then just don't use custom moves.


I don't know whether custom moves will be allowed or not, but time isn't really an issue if synching the 3DS and Wii U is quick enough.

 

[SonicZeroX]

I would think for tournaments TOs would have their own set of 3DSs that have all custom moves unlocked for use on WiiU systems that don't have them all.

 

[Scala]

Oh well if it's that fast to pick custom moves than hopefully they will be allowed in competitive play. I don't see a reason to not allow them if they won't interfere with any event schedules and don't make the game totally broken.

I guess a concern with custom moves might be that they introduce a bunch of unfairly one-sided matchups. It's too early to say right now if it will.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't think we should require people to have Amiibos, but many people will and that will just reduce the average time even further. (Assuming they work like we think they will.)

But yeah, the setup time is trivial. It's much less than setting up controls.

 

[Tristan_win]

This is just a small thing but a feature I hope will exist in the WiiU version would be the ability to name your load out. That way each WiiU could have the most popular builds and there names or a simple label showing what it is.

Like 2123 = Neutral 2, side 1, down 2, up 3 or whatever order we all learn to agree on.

 

[Chiroz]

This is just a small thing but a feature I hope will exist in the WiiU version would be the ability to name your load out. That way each WiiU could have the most popular builds and there names or a simple label showing what it is.

Like 2123 = Neutral 2, side 1, down 2, up 3 or whatever order we all learn to agree on.

The same order as they are on the loadout screen. Neutral, Side, Up, Down.

 

[GLStephen]

Yes, but you honestly don't expect a TO to spend months on different setups unlocking them all or him somehow finding enough setups of players who have them all unlocked. With characters it was easy to spend 6-7 hours unlocking everything. It seems like custom moves need like 30-40 hours of gameplay which is much more.

Still I am fairly certain that they will unlock upon transfer which means that all it takes is 1 3DS with all custom moves unlocked and less than an hour to "unlock" all moves on a Wii U.

You really only need one setup to have everything unlocked, at which point you can just copy everything by USB (people can back up their old data the same way, if they are concerned with losing it). It really shouldn't be an issue at all.

Unless you can't do that on Wii U for some reason?

Edit: Apparently USB backups of save data are console locked. How moronic.

 

[WizKick]

First off I don't think picking customs on 3DS is as quick as everyone says it is. From what I've seen you have to back out of the character select screen and go to a separate screen to configure a "loadout". You can pick loadouts on the character select screen but not create a new loadout. It's a shame, I wish it was more efficient like MvC where you can pick your options right then and there.

Basically I don't think that custom moves will be time efficient on the WiiU version and they won't be tournament viable because of that. Sure a player could bring a 3ds or amiibo but I don't think it's fair to assume that all players will want to purchase one of these. Even the amiibo's usefulness hinges on that player owning a WiiU themselves which definitely isn't always the case.

When both versions of the game are out I think the WiiU will remain customless for reasons stated above but 3DS custom move side tournaments will be run because players who enter acknowledge the responsibility of owning a 3DS and unlocking the custom moves themselves.

As for before the WiiU version comes out, I just think customs should be banned on 3DS because that's what I think will happen on WiiU. Also I think there'll be 3DS system sharing and the likes going on and I think we should be minimizing issues with custom moves not being available or whatnot.

That's my $0.02

Because people don't do this sort of thing already to set up their nick name with their buttons, right? What are we trying to put tournaments on an assembly line?

 

[Malex]

Is copying save files to SD cards still a thing? Couldn't you just have 1 save file with everything unlocked? Couldn't we just have 1 save file on the entire internet with everything unlocked that the TO could download onto an SD card?

I did that with Wii games, anyway.

 

[Chiroz]

Is copying save files to SD cards still a thing?

It's still doable. Whether or not it's still popular I don't know.

 

[Malex]

It's still doable. Whether or not it's still popular I don't know.

Popularity has nothing to do with it. If it is possible, it solves the problem and it solves the problem efficiently.

Requirements:

1 SD card -- $10
1 save file on the entire internet with everything on it

Done. Every set up (and lazy competitive players who don't want to farm everything on their home consoles) will have it.

 

[Chiroz]

Popularity has nothing to do with it. If it is possible, it solves the problem and it solves the problem efficiently.

Requirements:

1 SD card -- $10
1 save file on the entire internet with everything on it

Done. Every set up (and lazy competitive players who don't want to farm everything on their home consoles) will have it.

You don't even need the SD card. You could technically borrow a 3DS with every single custom and transfer everything to your Wii U.

 

[deepseadiva]

Glad to read most people are interested in using these competitively. This opens such a huge world. Undoubtedly there is going to be optimum moveset combinations for characters, but I'm thrilled to see the variations players will be coming up with. Every player and every character choice will be uniquely theirs. Aww.

Unless these were going to add 13 hours to create the customizations, which thank god they wont, since people are interested in them, there will be a scene for them. EXCELLENT.

 

[SonicZeroX]

This is just a small thing but a feature I hope will exist in the WiiU version would be the ability to name your load out. That way each WiiU could have the most popular builds and there names or a simple label showing what it is.

Like 2123 = Neutral 2, side 1, down 2, up 3 or whatever order we all learn to agree on.

Well now that the english version is out, I can confirm you can name your custom move loadouts!

 

[Tristan_win]

Well now that the english version is out, I can confirm you can name your custom move loadouts!

Fantastic this helps weaken the argument about selecting customs taking too much time.

 

[Chiroz]

Fantastic this helps weaken the argument about selecting customs taking too much time.

Every character has 36 possible combinations. Assuming that at least ONE of all of the moves (including customs or defaults) is deemed "useless, and let's be fair here, every character has a least 1 move from their 12 that is deemed useless, then there's only 12 possibilities.

The game gives you 10 possible slots + the default (and random) so you can have stored 11/12 combinations. Technically only 1 moveset would be left out and would require the person playing to "make it".

 

[Fafnir]

After having gotten my hands on the game, and having seen first hand how silly the grind is for all the custom moves, as much as I really wanted to have them in competitive play, this really kills it. From a mechanical point of view, they offer a lot of new gameplay opportunities to a lot of characters, and can help breath life into a lot of characters that could otherwise be relegated to uncompetitiveness. Sadly, getting them unlocked on enough systems to run any competitive environment would be an absolute logistical nightmare.

Maybe next time they'll put in custom moves available from the get go, but for now, sorry, they're dead.

 

[Tristan_win]

Every character has 36 possible combinations. Assuming that at least ONE of all of the moves (including customs or defaults) is deemed "useless, and let's be fair here, every character has a least 1 move from their 12 that is deemed useless, then there's only 12 possibilities.

The game gives you 10 possible slots + the default (and random) so you can have stored 11/12 combinations. Technically only 1 moveset would be left out and would require the person playing to "make it".

Then you have to consider popular builds. A lot of low level people are going to be more attracted to one set up over another if they see 'pro's' use a certain set up. I imagine most characters will only need 1-3 choices.

 

[LancerStaff]

After having gotten my hands on the game, and having seen first hand how silly the grind is for all the custom moves, as much as I really wanted to have them in competitive play, this really kills it. From a mechanical point of view, they offer a lot of new gameplay opportunities to a lot of characters, and can help breath life into a lot of characters that could otherwise be relegated to uncompetitiveness. Sadly, getting them unlocked on enough systems to run any competitive environment would be an absolute logistical nightmare.

Maybe next time they'll put in custom moves available from the get go, but for now, sorry, they're dead.

At least in SSB3D, you'll only need your moves, and most people main only one or two characters. If you really want to exploit a matchup that badly, you'll take some time to ge the moves you want.

 

[Malex]

After having gotten my hands on the game, and having seen first hand how silly the grind is for all the custom moves, as much as I really wanted to have them in competitive play, this really kills it. From a mechanical point of view, they offer a lot of new gameplay opportunities to a lot of characters, and can help breath life into a lot of characters that could otherwise be relegated to uncompetitiveness. Sadly, getting them unlocked on enough systems to run any competitive environment would be an absolute logistical nightmare.

Maybe next time they'll put in custom moves available from the get go, but for now, sorry, they're dead.

Play through classic mode and hit the home button during the roulette wheel. I've gotten custom parts on every stage and my best time through classic was receiving 10 custom moves (+ 10 or so other random stuff.) Make sure you pick the Red path, which is the most difficult and gives you better rewards. I think my lowest was three, but I can't remember if losing matches was involved in that.

The worst part is that you can unlock moves that you've already unlocked for some reason. Which means your chances for unlocking certain moves doesn't increase as you play. However, I've noticed that playing a particular character seems to increase your chances at unlocking their moves more than other characters. (If you are playing as Megaman in classic, you'll have a better chance at unlocking megaman moves. This is based on nothing but my feelings, I had collected no data for it.)

I've been unlocking about 5 custom moves per playthrough. So, assuming there are 48 characters with moves to unlock in the game. There's 576 possible custom moves. So, on average you have a 1/115 chance assuming the average 5 moves per classic.

Based on my assumptions and experience thus far:

Assumption 5 moves per classic play through.
Assumption all moves equally likely.

Odds:

Receiving any particular custom move per classic play through: 4.3%

Playthroughs required to obtain all moves:

99.9% = 791
99% = 527
90% = 264
75% = 159

So, given my assumptions, most people could unlock all the custom moves by playing through classic 3-4 times with each character. That is less than 100 hours of gameplay. I'm not seeing how this is a problem.


Edit: I just got my "Unlocked 50 custom moves" message, and I've played classic 11 times.

 

[Chiroz]

Play through classic mode and hit the home button during the roulette wheel. I've gotten custom parts on every stage and my best time through classic was receiving 10 custom moves (+ 10 or so other random stuff.) Make sure you pick the Red path, which is the most difficult and gives you better rewards. I think my lowest was three, but I can't remember if losing matches was involved in that.

The worst part is that you can unlock moves that you've already unlocked for some reason. Which means your chances for unlocking certain moves doesn't increase as you play. However, I've noticed that playing a particular character seems to increase your chances at unlocking their moves more than other characters. (If you are playing as Megaman in classic, you'll have a better chance at unlocking megaman moves. This is based on nothing but my feelings, I had collected no data for it.)

I've been unlocking about 5 custom moves per playthrough. So, assuming there are 48 characters with moves to unlock in the game. There's 576 possible custom moves. So, on average you have a 1/115 chance assuming the average 5 moves per classic.

Based on my assumptions and experience thus far:

Assumption 5 moves per classic play through.
Assumption all moves equally likely.

Odds:

Receiving any particular custom move per classic play through: 4.3%

Playthroughs required to obtain all moves:

99.9% = 791
99% = 527
90% = 264
75% = 159

So, given my assumptions, most people could unlock all the custom moves by playing through classic 3-4 times with each character. That is less than 100 hours of gameplay. I'm not seeing how this is a problem.


Edit: I just got my "Unlocked 50 custom moves" message, and I've played classic 11 times.

I got all the custom moves for the 3 characters that I wanted in about 10 hours. I got the 50 custom moves message somewhere before this time too. I am at around 100-150 custom moves.

It only gets harder the more moves you get though. Also its so random. Greninja I got all customs in 2 classic runs, both 9.0 (although I lost on both, ended 8.0 and 8.5).

Shulk's took me around 8 runs though (but I got some other character's in the way).

 

[Illuvial]

I'm ok with them, and if any moves are discovered to be OP as all hell we can always just ban those. One huge potential benefit is the ability to tailor certain moves to make a 6-4 MU a 5-5 for a character, or a 7-3 MU a 6-4. The ability to do that with custom specials is huge, but I'm not sure if that will ever happen, considering that both parties customize the moveset

Plus it makes the already atrocious lengths of tournaments even longer. As a FInal Fantasy Dissidia tournament player I can tell you right now that sets in that game can take close to an hour to finish, just because players spend so much time coming up with optimal movesets, equipment loadsouts and accessory loadouts (among other things) based on MU and player data. If we did that for Smash, it makes the already 15-20 minutes sets increase to 25-30 minutes in length, and that's kinda ridiculous

Another thing is that unlocking the custom moves for characters can become such a damn chore, and it makes the entry for becoming a tournament level player rise even higher

 

[Malex]

I'm ok with them, and if any moves are discovered to be OP as all hell we can always just ban those. One huge potential benefit is the ability to tailor certain moves to make a 6-4 MU a 5-5 for a character, or a 7-3 MU a 6-4. The ability to do that with custom specials is huge, but I'm not sure if that will ever happen, considering that both parties customize the moveset

Plus it makes the already atrocious lengths of tournaments even longer. As a FInal Fantasy Dissidia tournament player I can tell you right now that sets in that game can take close to an hour to finish, just because players spend so much time coming up with optimal movesets, equipment loadsouts and accessory loadouts (among other things) based on MU and player data. If we did that for Smash, it makes the already 15-20 minutes sets increase to 25-30 minutes in length, and that's kinda ridiculous

Another thing is that unlocking the custom moves for characters can become such a damn chore, and it makes the entry for becoming a tournament level player rise even higher

It isn't our responsibility to balance the game. Who are we to decide that a move is too OP to use? Why should one character get to use their best move but not another? Either all custom moves are allowed or no custom moves are allowed.

As far as build times for custom movesets.... it takes seconds. Not an issue.

 

[LancerStaff]

It isn't our responsibility to balance the game. Who are we to decide that a move is too OP to use? Why should one character get to use their best move but not another? Either all custom moves are allowed or no custom moves are allowed.

As far as build times for custom movesets.... it takes seconds. Not an issue.

We're not saying to ban S tier stuff, we're saying to ban outright broken stuff. Like MK's IDC in Brawl.

 

[Illuvial]

It isn't our responsibility to balance the game. Who are we to decide that a move is too OP to use? Why should one character get to use their best move but not another? Either all custom moves are allowed or no custom moves are allowed.

As far as build times for custom movesets.... it takes seconds. Not an issue.

You say that now, but when thinking about a particular Match--Up and how your opponent plays with their character, and when you then factor in the stage, choosing your moveset can actually take quite some time.

Also, if one move is actually broken enough to break the balance of the game, it should go away. I'm a fan of the whole "all or nothing" approach you suggest, but at the same time that's now always how it works. I mean just look at stages, we don't have the "all or nothing' mentality there, do we? As for deciding what'd OP and what isn't, we can only let tournament and ladder data decide that. If one move ends up making a character a dominant force on the circuit and we notice that its shutting down a lot of play for a lot of characters, then its legality should be cvlled into question. But we won't know what is and isn't hellishly good until we get appropriate data, so its too early to tell

Its the same thing with equipment. While I'm against equipment, at the same time I can't help but want it to be legal for a bit just to see what happens. If it has as positive of an influence on the meta as supporters say it will, then keep it. But if it has a negative affect or fails to add any reasonable depth or strategy to the meta, then do away with it. How will we know what action to take? When the tournament data comes in and we get to see how everything is affected by the inclusion of these mechanics