Custom Moveset Discussion

[DrakeRowan]

I'd like to see that match, you got a link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FFFWb3Ra7Y&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

This was absolutely amazing to watch. Custom moves are so dang interesting.

 

[Weiro_O]

If only they were allowed online. Since they are not, I lost some motivation to try them out but reading through this thread has brought back that curiosity

 

[Weiro_O]

Too bad they are not allowed in For Glory mode. That would have given me so much more drive to use them.

 

[Weiro_O]

Sorry, new to posting in Smashboards and forums for that matter. How do I delete a post. Didn't think the first one went through. . .

 

[Pazzo.]

I personally think it's too early to prohibit Customs yet. If they become a problem after a while, we'll just adjust to it, but for the love of everything holy, let us experiment.

 

[MechaWave]

Unless it is outright counterintuitive on the Wii U version to unlock them, there's no reason to ban them. They all seem fairly balanced and they all have a noticeable weakness if you were to switch. On the 3DS version, they should most definitely be legal; since you need your own 3DS, it should be the player's responsibility to have them unlocked or not. Until we find out more about the Wii U version, there is nothing we can discuss about them on it yet.

Even if a custom move were to be "broken," that one move could be banned from that character's arsenal, as a last resort.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Unless it is outright counterintuitive on the Wii U version to unlock them, there's no reason to ban them.

Until we find out more about the Wii U version, there is nothing we can discuss about them on it yet.

From the E3/Treehouse streams we were informed you could synch your 3DS file to your Wii U to copy all customization/equipment unlocks.

Sure we don't know if that will still be true, but the Wii U connect button hints they probably didn't remove it. What we don't know at all, is whether or not you can synch it to multiple systems. Assuming you can, all TOs would need is access to 1 3ds version with all the custom moves unlocked.

With the knowledge currently available to us, it seems easy to get the custom moves open on the Wii U.

 

[qwetroop]

I don't know if this has been covered before, I haven't played the game yet as I'm waiting for the demo in NA, but are any of the custom move options OBJECTIVELY better than any of the standard moves? Like rather than side grades (ex. Increase the range on Mario's F-Smash but decrease the damage output) are any of them straight upgrades (ex. Increase both the hitbox size and damage output of Mario's F-Smash)?

 

[MechaWave]

From the E3/Treehouse streams we were informed you could synch your 3DS file to your Wii U to copy all customization/equipment unlocks.

Sure we don't know if that will still be true, but the Wii U connect button hints they probably didn't remove it. What we don't know at all, is whether or not you can synch it to multiple systems. Assuming you can, all TOs would need is access to 1 3ds version with all the custom moves unlocked.

With the knowledge currently available to us, it seems easy to get the custom moves open on the Wii U.

Oh alright. I didn't watch that whole Treehouse stream but that's good to know. I figured as much.

 

[rpgcaster]

Okay then, assuming that you'd be able to transfer data to the Wii U multiple times with 1 3DS file, would custom moves be viable? Is the convenience of implementing them in tourney's the only reason that people think they aren't viable, or is there anything else that stands against the possibility of seeing it in competitive play?

 

[DrakeRowan]

Okay then, assuming that you'd be able to transfer data to the Wii U multiple times with 1 3DS file, would custom moves be viable? Is the convenience of implementing them in tourney's the only reason that people think they aren't viable, or is there anything else that stands against the possibility of seeing it in competitive play?

See, this thread for arguments for and against Custom Moves.

 

[Conda]

I don't know if this has been covered before, I haven't played the game yet as I'm waiting for the demo in NA, but are any of the custom move options OBJECTIVELY better than any of the standard moves? Like rather than side grades (ex. Increase the range on Mario's F-Smash but decrease the damage output) are any of them straight upgrades (ex. Increase both the hitbox size and damage output of Mario's F-Smash)?

No. Some may be better for 1v1 applications (ie a custom move may turn a gimmicky ineffective move into a command grab, which is now useful). But they all have drawbacks and do not have upsides that are not proportional.

 

[Zebra Dragon]

I don't know if this has been covered before, I haven't played the game yet as I'm waiting for the demo in NA, but are any of the custom move options OBJECTIVELY better than any of the standard moves? Like rather than side grades (ex. Increase the range on Mario's F-Smash but decrease the damage output) are any of them straight upgrades (ex. Increase both the hitbox size and damage output of Mario's F-Smash)?

I think there are some who are obviously better and will be used, but none that are straight upgrades, there's always a lower number or higher endlag thrown in.

 

[Tristan_win]

I wish to bring a new topic to the custom move set discussion.

Due to the increase survivability all characters will receive in Smash4 once players become capable to correctly KI/VI most attacks should we consider a future where a generic ban on all up B's that only visible purpose is to increase a characters recovery range? Some characters wont have a up B variation banned like WFT due to not having a clearly superior option but others like Sheik, Marth, DHD, Zelda and I'm sure plenty of others would have one option banned.

This mostly globe ban would help shorten future matches, buff gimping, and maybe help simulate a more exciting spectator experience.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, it's a bit dangerous for us to perhaps come to limit specials in this game, but if it were to happen, in perhaps a similar way as to how smogon handles things (completely backed by data); maybe. But the big issue is we have a situation where a single (or more) custom move is increasing the viability of a character by a lot going by match up results and other data; shouldn't we want a game where every character is the 'strongest' they can possibly be?

... in that case a criteria for banning specials would have to be based off some sort of 'line' where match lengths are increasing considerably but with the same (or barely different) results. For example Mario loses 60% of the time to Bowser, and with another custom move set still loses 60% of the time, but match lengths increase by 25%. BUT UGHHH ITS JUST SO BADDD UGHH, how do we objectively identify what's doing that? How do we even get enough sample data for that if it becomes "obvious" certain specials are better to the populace so other options are barren / outdated. UGHHH.

However, gimping people's recoveries for the sake of "makes them live longer" isn't something I'd cosign to. As simple as "why can an X character have a pretty good multiuse recovery/attack move but for something which I only use for recovery I have to gimp myself. etc etc etc.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I wish to bring a new topic to the custom move set discussion.

Due to the increase survivability all characters will receive in Smash4 once players become capable to correctly KI/VI most attacks should we consider a future where a generic ban on all up B's that only visible purpose is to increase a characters recovery range? Some characters wont have a up B variation banned like WFT due to not having a clearly superior option but others like Sheik, Marth, DHD, Zelda and I'm sure plenty of others would have one option banned.

This mostly globe ban would help shorten future matches, buff gimping, and maybe help simulate a more exciting spectator experience.

I'm less than thrilled about this idea since some up specials like Villager and Rosalina already do no damage and are used strictly for recovery. (Although Rosalina does have a version that launches her further but reduces her ability to aim it.) Plus what @ Shaya said about the difficulty of objectively identifying such moves.

This also ignores characters like Luigi, ZSS, etc. that use specials other than up special to recover. And Bowser, at least, has an option for his side special that turns it into a recovery option. (It's a dashing claw swipe.)

 

[guedes the brawler]

if we are going to ban all recovery specials poor meta knight...

anyways, there is always a trade-off, people forget many up specials are ood OoS options and good finishers (ex: Dolphin Slash), so i don't see harm.


if it really bogs down the matches, we cna just go 2 stocks, then.

 

[Minato]

The biggest problem to me is logistics in a tourney. Selecting custom moves don't take too long, but when you factor in people thinking about what to choose when they counterpick, it might add up quite a bit of time. But hopefully that doesn't become a problem.

I'd like to see them stay in, personally. Taking them out takes away a good part of what makes Smash 4 its own unique thing. I haven't come across anything that's been broken yet. A lot of them are cool, creative moves that aren't really going overboard. We shouldn't be restricting custom movesets yet, especially at the beginning of Smash 4's life. Smash 4 is its own thing, so we shouldn't hastily make the rules like previous games without letting the game develop on its own.

I'm also against banning of individual custom moves as well. It's possible something might look overpowered, but you'd have to consider if it'll continue to play out that way as the game evolves. Worrying which moves shouldn't be used can be decided later instead of being knee-jerk bans.

 

[san.]

Banning specials because they offer greater recovery is absolutely silly. Many recovery specials that I have seen offer vertical vs. horizontal options or lessens/removes damage for greater distance. Without the extra attack power, they are vulnerable to getting attacked themselves.

Additionally, options from the ledge are limited. You lose your invincibility immediately when ledge releasing and close to that when ledge jumping. You can get ledge trumped. You can't grab the ledge for a full second at least. There is more than enough that can be properly exploited. Please don't remove more options.

 

[Tristan_win]

if we are going to ban all recovery specials poor meta knight...

anyways, there is always a trade-off, people forget many up specials are ood OoS options and good finishers (ex: Dolphin Slash), so i don't see harm.


if it really bogs down the matches, we cna just go 2 stocks, then.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm speaking only about custom up B option that serve to improve recovery. Marth normal dolphin slash has always been a great move with a great hit box but his variation that remove it's hit box in favor of higher vertical lift it has only one purpose which is a higher recovery.

@ Shaya You make a excellent point about how difficult it would be to prove with statistic how much removing these extended recoveries would help or harm the community. I've honestly have reread your post several times now and can't seem to make a good argument or suggestion that I don't immediately shoot down after thinking about it a bit more. There might not be a way to prove it with statistic unless we conducted a control scientific experiment, which isn't really a option. I also don't want to reply to your intelligent response with a 'bUT wE dONt nEeD to pROve it if it maKe sENse' I would have to punch myself in the face if I really thought people would be okay with just that.

~sighs~ I don't know, recoveries are just so good in smash4 I'm worried if gimping and surprise kills become the main focus for killing then when everyone suddenly get nearly ungankable recoveries what would that leave us? Is it to just hoping your opponent mess up and KI/VI poorly, waiting until 150+% or for the timer to run out? That's why I wanted to open a dialogue on this even though I don't particular think strongly of my suggested side. I just don't want to convince myself to be against custom moves which is where I'm heading now since nerfing recoveries without proof of them being broken(which they aren't) isn't a option.

Edit: I'm most likely just over thinking this whole thing but I'm going to be really unhappy in a year or so if I'm proven to be right.
edit: for spelling the word dialogue.

 

[guedes the brawler]

^which is why i said there is a trade off. Marth is getting rid of one of his good kill moves for more recovery in that case.

just like other things about this game: give it time. if there are really problems, they will show up and we will be able to prove they exist, soon enough

 

[Gidy]

I have a idea. What if we don't ban custom moves, but we ban characters that don't need them?
For instance, Megaman is in desperate need of some custom moves, so he would be allowed to change moves. But Bowsers custom moves just add on to dominance in this game so we would ban him being able to use custom moves. That way, we can have a closer tier list.

Or, maybe, set up custom moves for characters that need them and they can't be altered?

 

[SmellTheJava]

I don't feel like the community has to ban anything yet. The game only has come out on Japan, we don't even know how much the moves are going to affect the new meta at all. One of the things that I love about these kind of games is trying new things, experimenting and adjusting your play, new moves gives you more options and that is always good.

I love trying out new things and set ups, every time I get a new game I'll just stay in the lab for hours trying new things and making notes about what works and what not, so these moves just give me more room to play with. That's something good.

SSB4 is a new game and custom moves gives more options, they give SSB4 his own feeling and make it a special game. I don't really know how much they change the feeling of a character, but maybe a certain combination of moves can help to deal with a bad match up, that makes me exited to try new combinations.

Let's give it time to see how it evolves, the game is brand new and there's nothing clear about anything yet.

 

[guedes the brawler]

the only kind of custom move we should ban is if they bring an exploit that's about as intrusive or abusive as, say, Infinite Dimensional Cape.... providing baning the exploit doesn't cut it (as in it happens without the player forcing it to happen).

i do think, we could let counteppicking custom moves INSTEAD of stages happen. say you can only CP 2 stages, you could be CP'ing 1 stage and 1 CM, or 2 CMs instead.

this is mostly to regulate camping and recovery CMs. Say, if you are DK you are probably be more affected by a custom move that lets people camp than stage layouts.

The default moves should be free, though.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

I have a few suggestions for this custom cluster.

*A tournament for no custom moves.
*A tournament for custom moves.
**Stick to that customization for the entire tournament.
***Or just allow free customizations.


I think we might need to drop the custom equipments, though? It just seems like a headache to get everything. The item list is really huge.

 

[Folt]

I have a few suggestions for this custom cluster.

*A tournament for no custom moves.
*A tournament for custom moves.
**Stick to that customization for the entire tournament.
***Or just allow free customizations.


I think we might need to drop the custom equipments, though? It just seems like a headache to get everything. The item list is really huge.

I'd pick the one I bolded and outlined in your post.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Gotta start the tourneys out as fresh as possible and then cut moves/things as time goes on.

I think that custom moves tend to make things more balanced, tbh. I know everyone is partly concerned with a move that might be competitively OP, all in all, custom moves help the weakest the most and the strongest the least because the strongest are strong anyways.

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

Besides, custom movesets helps with game variety.

Instead of watching several games with the same KO recipe over and over again, I think this is a welcome addition to a mixed spice in our soup, no?

Besides. I noticed that Nintendo patched the game a few days ago.
I take it as a sign that they have the ability to rebalance things as they see fit.

 

[Thinkaman]

Guys, @ NinjaLink showed off a trick to unlock custom moves rapidly. (I'm not sure if he discovered it, but either way it's fantastic.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKby5OKOE1U

His YouTube channel also has in-depth showcases of all the custom moves with high-level analysis and commentary; he has almost every character done.

 

[Gea]

The only character I am worried about is GW based on the data I've seen of Judgment alt being 1s or 9s (and the jury is still out there). Otherwise they all look pretty balanced and worth trying without too much fear of overcentralizing anything.

 

[Thinkaman]

The only character I am worried about is GW based on the data I've seen of Judgment alt being 1s or 9s (and the jury is still out there). Otherwise they all look pretty balanced and worth trying without too much fear of overcentralizing anything.

The 9s are significantly weaker, and Judgement is still a really, really hard attack for people not named @UTDZac to land.

 

[Gea]

I saw someone saying it was still killing sub 50% (no DI), but it doesn't really matter to me. As long as it doesn't promote spamming judgment the entire match (which there is no evidence of) it's fine. I'm just saying that is the most radical one I have even seen.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't ban any of the customs. At all. Why would we ban a custom move if we didn't ban ? And I would prefer for our community to not be like Smogon, as they get a lot of flack for what they do and how they do it.

 

[Kalierdarke]

I saw someone saying it was still killing sub 50% (no DI), but it doesn't really matter to me. As long as it doesn't promote spamming judgment the entire match (which there is no evidence of) it's fine. I'm just saying that is the most radical one I have even seen.

I would still say it doesn't top jigglypuff comboing from 0%-dead on a rest KO

 

[NinjaLink]

Guys, @ NinjaLink showed off a trick to unlock custom moves rapidly. (I'm not sure if he discovered it, but either way it's fantastic.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKby5OKOE1U

His YouTube channel also has in-depth showcases of all the custom moves with high-level analysis and commentary; he has almost every character done.

I found it myself. I've done it in other games but it slipped my mind to try it in this gamre since im decent at slots already lol

The only character I am worried about is GW based on the data I've seen of Judgment alt being 1s or 9s (and the jury is still out there). Otherwise they all look pretty balanced and worth trying without too much fear of overcentralizing anything.

Dont worry too much about that. Its a 50/50 chance like most ppl think it is. 9's are already rarer as is. Also remember that every time you get that 1, you will hurt yourself and you WILL get alot of them. Its really a go big or go home kinda move.

Btw guys I HAVE EVERY SINGLE CUSTOM MOVE AND WILL STREAM/UPLOAD THE REST WHEN I WAKE UP TOMORROW.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Guys, @ NinjaLink showed off a trick to unlock custom moves rapidly. (I'm not sure if he discovered it, but either way it's fantastic.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKby5OKOE1U

His YouTube channel also has in-depth showcases of all the custom moves with high-level analysis and commentary; he has almost every character done.

How did I not think of this? Is there a comparable trick for the wii u? That could solve one problem.

 

[NinjaLink]

How did I not think of this? Is there a comparable trick for the wii u? That could solve one problem.

We'll know soon. Time to sleep for me.

 

[Venks]

For anyone interested I have a playlist with about 6 videos showcasing custom moves in some 1v1s with actual players. Quality isn't the best, but yeah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSKTx0KDXo0&list=PL_oorceNOm5EGrHNUhjp4V7n_holPMN0i

 

[Emblem Lord]

I am for them and I think they have the potential to greatly effect the metagame. Samus and Ganondorf are simply better with them, no contest. Some characters can counter pick specials, while other characters can become more specialized or make up for certain weaknesses. It's intriguing and I cannot wait to see how the metagame evolves with them included.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There is no doubt in my mind that custom moves are an absolute gain for this game. I find it particularly important to mention that the relative gain of having access to more options is greater for bad characters who suffer from a lack of options than for good characters who already have all the options they need.