Custom Moveset Discussion

[Starbound]

I think custom moves have the potential to add a lot of depth to the metagame, and I definitely think that they should be considered innocent until proven guilty. They are a brand new aspect to Smash Bros., and arguably the most revolutionary thing to be introduced to the franchise in years, which is why so many people seem afraid of giving them a try.

From what we've seen, custom moves are designed on a trade-off system. Each custom moves takes something away from the default special (speed, power, range, etc) and enhances something else (speed, power, range, etc). As a result, no custom move will be the best option for a character because that one move lacks something that the other two variants have.

This even applies to most of Palutena. Autoreticle is her default neutral special, which, from what I can tell, is like a delayed laser. Explosive Flame is an alternative. This one keeps the delayed trait, but lacks in range as it only has a single hitbox. However, it's a stronger move. Heavenly Light is quicker to start up than Autoreticle and Explosive Flame, but it causes no knockback. Her up specials (Rocket Jump is the only one that does damage. Jump Glide and Teleport are more flexible than Rocket Jump, however Teleport is outranged by Jump Glide, but Jump Glide is slower), as well as Super Speed, Angelic Missile (super speed does more damage, but has less knockback than Angelic Missile), Celestial Firework and Counter (Celestial Firework is consistent close range damage, whereas Counter has more risk involved).

 

[Second Power]

@ItsRainingGravy I don't know if this is still relevant, but taking a non-damaging Up-special means trading an OoS attack for an OoS escape (which will typically open you up for a juggle). Additionally, I think most recovery which fall under that umbrella are easier to beat (and, therefore, gimp) than their counterparts.

Also, from what I've seen, outright edge KOs aren't impossible. From my observation, this actually seems much more optimal as a strategy than praying they can't make it back. If that's the case, you're forgoing a (possibly strong) attack for a recovery move which may not be used against a good player.

Again, from my observation, I don't see greater recovery as useful. Unless you Up-B is Little Mac level, it's typically good enough when you factor typical aerial mobility, survival DI, and a saved double jump. Do you have some video evidence to support your claim that a better recovery would be as useful and toxic as you're implying?

 

[NewGuy79]

I have a proposal to make to everyone.

Custom moves that change attack properties would most likely be fine. For some characters, each offensive custom variation will have their own perks and counters, and it would just come down to a matter of preference (or character-specific matchups). While in other cases, one version might clearly better than the rest. Even if this were the case, it shouldn't be a problem. Unless there is clear indication of a certain move being overpowered, none of these types of custom moves should warrant being banned. All they would do is increase the latent potential of the characters that have them, and provide an overall raised "power level" across the board of characters: Promoting more exciting, and faster matches.

Now then, let's turn to the ugly side of custom moves: Recovery/Up Special variations. What is the problem with these, you might ask? Well then, let's go over them, shall we?

- Most recovery alterations have a more damaging version (with weaker recovery), and a stronger recovery version (with less/no damage).
- The stronger recovery version is the real problem here. This is a problem because recoveries are almost never used to actually attack, thereby making other variations of the move nearly useless. Why bother using the basic or stronger version, when people are almost always going to pick the one that has the best recovery
?
- This is a huge problem for two reasons. One, it raises the recovery potential of the entire roster, promoting longer and less exciting matches. And two, it goes against the very principal of why custom moves exist in the first place. What I mean by this is that because people are almost always going to pick the best version of an Up Special based upon how well it can let you recover, there is no point in picking the other two variations.


Custom moves are in their infancy right now, and I wholeheartedly feel as though we should give them a chance. There is a lot that we can learn, discover, and have fun with by allowing them a chance to be used in a competitive environment. We can potentially create an entirely new, and exciting metagame this way; and further solidify the unique charm of Smash 4 to the masses. Currently, there is not enough information on them to warrant an across-the-board ban against them. Nor any one move has been discovered yet to warrant it's own specific ban.

However

I feel as though that Recovery/Up Special variations already have enough information to contradict my above paragraph, and have elements that would be toxic to a competitive metagame. There is little to no reason to pick over variations of an Up Special outside of the one that offers the best recovery, and that stifles options in regards to choice of selection. Additionally, it allows ALL characters to live longer, and thus it would exponentially draw out matches on a grand scale.

Therefore, I propose an across the board ban on Up Special Custom Moves to help avoid said problems I have stated above. This is not me saying that all custom moves should be banned, just the Up Special variations. I feel as though, if we are going to allow custom moves to become a part of the competitive metagame, Default Up Specials should be the only ones available.

Also, if it is okay with the moderators, I would like to make a separate poll from this topic discussing this issue. Thank you in advance.

Hold on a second theres lets look at it from a different perspective before we through the ban hammer down k.

Singling out up custom moves as ban worth really doesn't seem like a good idea to me, you point out that not banning them will most likely lead to players picking the best version of their up special however this is simply an inevitable reality for not only our meta game but truthfully any fighting game meta game. If you look at UMVC3 every competitive player knows which assist has the best synergy with their team, and due to the nature of competitive play they always have no reason to chose other wise. In our case competitive players may very well chose the best recovery for their character however to state this this is always the case is just not true, this is because in fact up specials are not ONLY used to recover. let's take Bowsers up-B for example; not one of the games best recoveries right? you would think that it would be a no brainer to chose the higher recover, however by doing so the Bowser may very well gimp his on stage game. (as confirmed here) the Rocket Fortress while giving Bowser a a great new recovery it completely eliminates all of his options out of shield, the arguably better move not only hit only once but it eliminates bowsers horizontal movement when used; meaning that if Bowser were to be getting some sever shield pressure using this move to get out of that pressure like his traditional UP-B would leave him vulnerable in long animation where as his opponent could easily just start charging a F-smash after taking the first hit.

this guy made my second point while I was typing it so listen to him:

You seem to be forgetting that a lot of characters have special moves other than their up special that can be used to recover. Fox, Luigi, ZSS come to mind, and Bowser has a variant on his side B that turns it into a recovery option. Then you have Jigglypuff and Yoshi, whose up specials aren't recovery based at all. Furthermore, some specials are both used for recovery and have non-recovery applications that the character is known for, such as Luigi's sweetspot punch, which can have valid tradeoffs in the custom selection. This proposed ban is ultimately arbitrary with its decision of what constitutes a recovery move, and including certain other specials makes it even more arbitrary and comes across as attempting to artificially balance the game. I can't support it.

to add to that it seems like recovering in this game is far easier then any other, IMO because players have not yet learned to or are afraid to contest the ledge, most video I've seen players have simply just allowed the opponent to grab ledge while they try to knock them off again once they get up. in this case however stronger recoveries will actually help the game become faster, thats is because with stronger recoveries players will fell much more comfortable going deep to gimp the opponent then ever before.

 

[Boy Jordan]

I have a proposal to make to everyone.

Boy, there was a lot of hyperbole in this. It is far, far too early to state that certain customs will cause toxicity to the scene. It is also an inaccuracy to state that there is no reason to select an up-special variant for any reason other than recovery. Bowser, Samus, Meta Knight, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Luigi, Jigglypuff, and plenty other of characters use their up-specials for offensive reasons moreover recovery. Up-special isn't necessarily the reserved slot for recovery, either, as plenty of side-specials (Pikachu, Villager, Fox, Falco, etc.) and down specials (Meta Knight, Luigi, Doctor Mario, etc.) are also used as recovery options. I don't mean to offend you, because you clearly put effort into your post, but we really need to avoid hasty recommendations such as yours when handling early competitive play. We'll soon be seeing the impact customs have in tournies. Until we discover that customs ruin our intention of competitive gameplay, we should ride 'em out and see where they take us.

EDIT: Eh, got beaten while I was typing. Don't mean to appear like I'm hounding you.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Do we have a data spreadsheet that contains the list of known custom moves, as of yet? I'm seriously curious.

 

[Noa.]

We have this thread here.

http://smashboards.com/threads/custom-special-move-catalog-currently-empty-need-data.367338/

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I don't understand. If we are going to ban custom moves, why didn't we ban Metaknight's tornado in Brawl? It's not really fair to suddenly ban moves when we didn't before. I don't understand the logical difference just because you can change what moves your character has. If the only reason the custom moves are going to be banned is that they are "too good" then it goes against the precedence of not banning OP'd moves in the past. Why not go a step further and ban all UP B's so everyone lives much shorter? I don't understand why we draw a line just because such options are customizable.
e

To me, it seems better for the competitive game if opponents have to understand and adapt to a high quantity of moves. It also means more characters will be viable because every character will can optimize their move set to get rid of bad moves.

I also see no problem if an opponent doesn't know your custom moves. That's their problem. That's like a first time tourney go saying you can't use Marth's spike on him because he didn't know it can spik. Essentially, it's your problem for being bad at the game, ie, if you have less knowledge of custom moves versus another smasher, you deserve to be at a disadvantage. I don't even think you should have to show off what customs you have equipped. A Sheik/Zelda player never had to declare which character they are using. Same with Pokemon Trainer. You had to see for yourself and adapt. To me this is good for the game and makes it more competitive and more exciting. Players who can quickly adapt to what customs their opponents have will be rewarded over players who memorize strategies and copy what they see in videos. I see no issue with this.

For example. lets say you saw a video with a Captain Falcon combo. Turns out if Villager equips custom move X, he can counteract faster and not let you do the combo. A better player will come up with an adjustment, or know the alternative combos that this custom move is weaker to. A worse player will not be able to adjust and lose. I see nothing wrong with rewarding players who can adapt faster.

 

[MargnetMan23]

I can't say I'm opposed to Custom Moves in the game (they just don't excite me, at all.) But I don't really see how "we didn't ban OP moves in the past" is a valid argument. An obvious reason why they wouldn't get banned before was because it wasn't FEASIBLE to ban them before. But in this case, it's pretty easy to enforce, so I don't see why "but you let x use x move even though it was OP ;-;" should be a good reason to not ban certain moves. I can't really say I'm in much of a position to have any input however.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

I think the only restriction should be that you MUST notify the TO what build you will be using and that MUST be the only build you use for said character.

 

[allshort17]

I have a proposal to make to everyone.

Custom moves that change attack properties would most likely be fine. For some characters, each offensive custom variation will have their own perks and counters, and it would just come down to a matter of preference (or character-specific matchups). While in other cases, one version might clearly better than the rest. Even if this were the case, it shouldn't be a problem. Unless there is clear indication of a certain move being overpowered, none of these types of custom moves should warrant being banned. All they would do is increase the latent potential of the characters that have them, and provide an overall raised "power level" across the board of characters: Promoting more exciting, and faster matches.

Now then, let's turn to the ugly side of custom moves: Recovery/Up Special variations. What is the problem with these, you might ask? Well then, let's go over them, shall we?

- Most recovery alterations have a more damaging version (with weaker recovery), and a stronger recovery version (with less/no damage).
- The stronger recovery version is the real problem here. This is a problem because recoveries are almost never used to actually attack, thereby making other variations of the move nearly useless. Why bother using the basic or stronger version, when people are almost always going to pick the one that has the best recovery?
- This is a huge problem for two reasons. One, it raises the recovery potential of the entire roster, promoting longer and less exciting matches. And two, it goes against the very principal of why custom moves exist in the first place. What I mean by this is that because people are almost always going to pick the best version of an Up Special based upon how well it can let you recover, there is no point in picking the other two variations.


Custom moves are in their infancy right now, and I wholeheartedly feel as though we should give them a chance. There is a lot that we can learn, discover, and have fun with by allowing them a chance to be used in a competitive environment. We can potentially create an entirely new, and exciting metagame this way; and further solidify the unique charm of Smash 4 to the masses. Currently, there is not enough information on them to warrant an across-the-board ban against them. Nor any one move has been discovered yet to warrant it's own specific ban.

However

I feel as though that Recovery/Up Special variations already have enough information to contradict my above paragraph, and have elements that would be toxic to a competitive metagame. There is little to no reason to pick over variations of an Up Special outside of the one that offers the best recovery, and that stifles options in regards to choice of selection. Additionally, it allows ALL characters to live longer, and thus it would exponentially draw out matches on a grand scale.

Therefore, I propose an across the board ban on Up Special Custom Moves to help avoid said problems I have stated above. This is not me saying that all custom moves should be banned, just the Up Special variations. I feel as though, if we are going to allow custom moves to become a part of the competitive metagame, Default Up Specials should be the only ones available.

Also, if it is okay with the moderators, I would like to make a separate poll from this topic discussing this issue. Thank you in advance.

With Lil Mac, I was planning on keeping his default recovery instead of his longer recovery. He's recovery game is garbage anyway, so I might as well keep the combo potential. I can see the same mindset for ZSS, Samus, Marth/Lucina, and Luigi players among a few.

 

[Boy Jordan]

I think the only restriction should be that you MUST notify the TO what build you will be using and that MUST be the only build you use for said character.

Uhh, what? Why? I keep seeing a lot of suggestions like this and cannot wrap my head around it. Doing this defeats the variety that custom moves offer to begin with. Do you have a good reason why you'd suggest this? How would it benefit the competitive scene to restrict characters to only one set of custom moves? What negatives are there in allowing full customs that demand we restrict them to such a degree? I'd like to see posts like these provide the reasoning behind them, cause I'm simply lost.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Uhh, what? Why? I keep seeing a lot of suggestions like this and cannot wrap my head around it. Doing this defeats the variety that custom moves offer to begin with. Do you have a good reason why you'd suggest this? How would it benefit the competitive scene to restrict characters to only one set of custom moves? What negatives are there in allowing full customs that demand we restrict them to such a degree? I'd like to see posts like these provide the reasoning behind them, cause I'm simply lost.

Did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say we restrict a character to one moveset I said if you're going to use a custom moveset build on a particular character that should be the only build you use for that tournament. Why? Because it puts too much burden on your opponent to calculate and figure out all the different combinations you might be using. By submiting your custom build ahead of time you're helping reduce that as well as giving the TO more time to organize, and giving the commentators more information to go off of.

Sticking to the build gives you consistency and doesn't give you a chance to try and game the system and gain an unfair advantage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say we restrict a character to one moveset I said if you're going to use a custom moveset build on a particular character that should be the only build you use for that tournament. Why? Because it puts too much burden on your opponent to calculate and figure out all the different combinations you might be using. By submiting your custom build ahead of time you're helping reduce that as well as giving the TO more time to organize, and giving the commentators more information to go off of.

Sticking to the build gives you consistency and doesn't give you a chance to try and game the system and gain an unfair advantage.

I don't think this is a valid reason. Your moveset is only an unknown until you use it, at which point the opponent knows exactly what you're using. Then they can adjust their strategy accordingly. A player who is capable of doing so on the fly during a match is objectively superior to one who cannot, all else being equal. Therefore allowing custom movesets to change during a set sounds to me like another measure of skill, both for the player using it (to see how they can best apply their moves) and for the opponent (to see how well they react). And I don't see what custom moves have to do with TO organization in the first place, nor do I understand why it's so important that we cater to the commentators like that.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

But if I'm gaining an advantage on the current build and you just go and pick a different build you'll have totally made any learning completely moot.

 

[Boy Jordan]

Did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say we restrict a character to one moveset I said if you're going to use a custom moveset build on a particular character that should be the only build you use for that tournament. Why? Because it puts too much burden on your opponent to calculate and figure out all the different combinations you might be using. By submiting your custom build ahead of time you're helping reduce that as well as giving the TO more time to organize, and giving the commentators more information to go off of.

Sticking to the build gives you consistency and doesn't give you a chance to try and game the system and gain an unfair advantage.

You seem to think that I misunderstood what you intended to limit. I understood, and I still think it's a terrible suggestion. Let's go over your arguments for a second here: Firstly, you argue that allowing for each custom adds a burden to the opponent, forcing them to know the ins and outs of each fighter in order to stay ahead of the curve. You're right on that. It would add more responsibility to each player. Where you're wrong is in thinking this is a bad or even alien way of handling things. Knowing the characters, knowing the stages, knowing your opponent, and knowing yourself have always been necessities in the competitive scene. I remember back in early Melee days, plenty of people didn't know Marth's down-aerial could spike. Was it the responsibility of Marth players to inform their opponent before each match? Nope. They'd spike 'em and move on the bracket. Sure, there are a large number of customs, but this system isn't a complicated one to figure out; it's only time consuming. Competitive players are already used to the practice of spending years learning the intricacies of the game. That's not an issue.

Secondly, you're saying that reporting a set of customs per character per player per tournament somehow reduces the load of tournament organizers. You realize how backwards that sounds, right? That will only create further burden on tournament organizers--needless burden--when they already have so much to deal with as it is. When it comes to knowledge that affects the matchup and gameplay, the responsibility goes to the players. It's always been that way and always will be that way, because not only does it reward players who invest more in learning and practicing, but it's just easier for everybody.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Except knowing ahead of time is actually less stressful and burdenful than finding out at the very last minute. Have you ever TOd by chance?

Also you're equating a combo to a build that could potentially make a character insanely different from what we would expect.

If you don't want to have it so custom builds need to be submitted ahead of time, at least have it so you have to remain with that build for the duration of the tournament. If someone keeps switching builds during a set it'll
A.) Confuse the **** out of commentators
B.) Make it so no matter what you can't reasonably learn the matchup during that set and adjust accordingly. There's thinking on the fly and then there's expecting everyone to be a robot.

 

[Boy Jordan]

Except knowing ahead of time is actually less stressful and burdenful than finding out at the very last minute.

No, see, tournament organizers shouldn't have to worry about the hassle period. No registration of customs, no regulation of matches making sure customs weren't altered. The only circumstance in which organizers should bother restricting customs in any way is if specific moves prove to break the game or provide advantage beyond what's reasonable. Even then, only specific customs should be restricted, not the combination of certain customs or the frequency that a player is allowed to change them up.

Have you ever TOd by chance?

Yes.

If someone keeps switching builds during a set it'll
A.) Confuse the **** out of commentators
B.) Make it so no matter what you can't reasonably learn the matchup during that set and adjust accordingly. There's thinking on the fly and then there's expecting everyone to be a robot.

Customs won't confuse commentators. It's the job of the commentator to know the game. There are many, many, many things that they have to know that dwarf the simple aspect of custom moves. They won't have an issue. Your second point really just doesn't make sense to me. Why does the addition of 12 optional moves suddenly make a certain matchup impossible to understand or adapt to? Yes, it's going to take time. No, it's not going to be impossible or a huge obstacle for people to overcome.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

But if I'm gaining an advantage on the current build and you just go and pick a different build you'll have totally made any learning completely moot.

Then adapt. That's what high level players are supposed to do. If you can't adapt, then you probably don't deserve to move on.

 

[Ganreizu]

Now then, let's turn to the ugly side of custom moves: Recovery/Up Special variations. What is the problem with these, you might ask? Well then, let's go over them, shall we?

- Most recovery alterations have a more damaging version (with weaker recovery), and a stronger recovery version (with less/no damage).
- The stronger recovery version is the real problem here. This is a problem because recoveries are almost never used to actually attack, thereby making other variations of the move nearly useless. Why bother using the basic or stronger version, when people are almost always going to pick the one that has the best recovery?
- This is a huge problem for two reasons. One, it raises the recovery potential of the entire roster, promoting longer and less exciting matches. And two, it goes against the very principal of why custom moves exist in the first place. What I mean by this is that because people are almost always going to pick the best version of an Up Special based upon how well it can let you recover, there is no point in picking the other two variations.

There is actually a significant benefit to opting for stronger recovery moves with less recovery. The combination of complete lack of edgehogging and the multitude of match ups can in many situations favor having a beefier recovery due to the increased presence and importance of an off stage game. Why worry about less recovery if you're always recovering against a certain character (because you can't be hogged)? The stronger hitboxes may make it even more difficult to deal with them coming back because the tool you previously used to edgeguard gets destroyed by that now more powerful option, and they still recover anyway. Regardless of if you end up finding a different tool to deal with that, you now have to switch up your game plan not because your opponent is adapting in the traditional sense but in a completely unique way for the smash series so far, while still providing room for adaptation in said traditional sense for both default and custom moves.

If traditional adaptation proves futile against specific special moves though, is that when we talk about bans?

 

[2fast]

Except knowing ahead of time is actually less stressful and burdenful than finding out at the very last minute. Have you ever TOd by chance?

Also you're equating a combo to a build that could potentially make a character insanely different from what we would expect.

If you don't want to have it so custom builds need to be submitted ahead of time, at least have it so you have to remain with that build for the duration of the tournament. If someone keeps switching builds during a set it'll
A.) Confuse the **** out of commentators
B.) Make it so no matter what you can't reasonably learn the matchup during that set and adjust accordingly. There's thinking on the fly and then there's expecting everyone to be a robot.

Adapt bro. Custom moves, while being different from the original, function relatively the same as the original. It shouldn't take a robot to memorize and adapt unless all the custom moves do something radically different than the original, which they don't, and even than the good players should still be able to adapt accordingly, which they will.

Also bothering TOs to memorize every matches custom movesets does not seem like something they should be bothered with. Their job is hard enough as it is. The commentators can commentate on the moves once they're seen in the match so that's not a problem either.

 

[Ganreizu]

The commentators can commentate on the moves once they're seen in the match so that's not a problem either.

You realize how unprofessional that makes them look right? It isn't a good thing for commentators to be consistently surprised, not by what the player is doing with their skill and usage of moves, but by moves existing in a given match at all.

 

[Gawain]

I think that they should be allowed for now, but some of the recovery based ones are definitely raising eyebrows. Lucina and I believe Marth as well both have a custom for the Dolphin Slash that removes the damage but gives it 50% more ranged. 50%! The last thing this game needs is better recovery. It's incredibly strong as it is.

 

[Hitzel]

Did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say we restrict a character to one moveset I said if you're going to use a custom moveset build on a particular character that should be the only build you use for that tournament. Why? Because it puts too much burden on your opponent to calculate and figure out all the different combinations you might be using. By submiting your custom build ahead of time you're helping reduce that as well as giving the TO more time to organize, and giving the commentators more information to go off of.

Sticking to the build gives you consistency and doesn't give you a chance to try and game the system and gain an unfair advantage.

There are a million and one competitive games out there where players can use various "builds," etc and no consistency problems are created from it. Players are making explicit choices when they choose their builds, after all.

You realize how unprofessional that makes them look right? It isn't a good thing for commentators to be consistently surprised, not by what the player is doing with their skill and usage of moves, but by moves existing in a given match at all.

Have you ever watched Starcraft or anything like that? Commentators speculate what players are thinking and are surprised all the time. It's normal.

 

[TimeSmash]

You realize how unprofessional that makes them look right? It isn't a good thing for commentators to be consistently surprised, not by what the player is doing with their skill and usage of moves, but by moves existing in a given match at all.

Isn't this implying we wouldn't be able to see customization screens beforehand? If a 3DS match is being displayed on a larger screen or two we should clearly be able to see which variant of the move the player chooses before the match starts.

 

[Ganreizu]

Have you ever watched Starcraft or anything like that? Commentators speculate what players are thinking and are surprised all the time. It's normal.

Completely different. Speculation on what players are thinking isn't the same as speculating on what players have to work with within the game. One of those is part of commentating, the other probably shouldn't exist. If anything compare it to an item system like league maybe? I don't know anything at all about league but it's my understanding there are items you get within the game bought with gold throughout a match, but the difference then is that items are obtained mid-match and are commentate-able, whereas if custom moves are hidden from everyone until they're used, you only have a 1/3 chance of commentating correctly if the move hasn't been used yet.

@ TimeSmash : Was that not their argument to begin with? Also, profiles exist. I don't believe profiles show custom options without editing them and i'm damn sure no one is going to be editing profiles mid-tournament unless it was a mid-tournament decision to switch options in order to adapt.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Then adapt. That's what high level players are supposed to do. If you can't adapt, then you probably don't deserve to move on.

Adapting to a custom build in one match, and then having to adapt to another and then possibly another isn't being competitive or failing to learn on the fly, it's not being a robot. It's making a best of three set completely pointless.

EDIT:

What I'm saying is there is learning on the fly and then losing because you got warn down from keeping track of all the build switching.


Also fine, let's allow custom build switching BUT ONLY AS the loser.

 

[2fast]

You realize how unprofessional that makes them look right? It isn't a good thing for commentators to be consistently surprised, not by what the player is doing with their skill and usage of moves, but by moves existing in a given match at all.

They don't have to act surprised xD once they see the move in match it would go something like: "It seems *insert player name here* opted to go with *insert move here*" then they can maybe comment on why they think that would be a good or bad option in that MU or so. That would only happen on the 3DS game too since you can see the custom moves picked directly on screen for the Wii U version.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

What I don't want to see is the winner of a match switching out their build. That's just unfair, if anyone can switch builds lets make it the loser of the game. There. That's a fair compromise imo.

 

[Ganreizu]

They don't have to act surprised xD once they see the move in match it would go something like: "It seems *insert player name here* opted to go with *insert move here*" then they can maybe comment on why they think that would be a good or bad option in that MU or so. That would only happen on the 3DS game too since you can see the custom moves picked directly on screen for the Wii U version.

They most likely would if the move is being used in combination with "skill and usage of moves" that i said earlier. If a hype situation happens involving a custom move no one knew was an option chosen including commentators, are they going to dissect the option of picking that move, or are they going to react to the hype? Probably both, but hype takes priority for smash, and if custom move choices were public knowledge then they wouldn't have to then go into dissection because they would have done that already before the match or in the beginning of the match. Unless you want to argue that customs being public knowledge reduces the possibility of hype...but i doubt that

I didn't know wii u version shows options though, so i guess it's a moot argument since that's the primary tournament version.

 

[allshort17]

For people worried about having to learn too many moves, does anyone play Tekken? There are 100+ moves for a good amount of characters and it's completely competitively viable. Even if custom selection was blind, you one have to learn 8 more moves per character, which brings the total amount of moves to remember around the same as any other fighting game.

Smash: 3 jab attacks+3 tilts+3 smashes+5 aerials+12 specials+4 grabs+1 zair=31 moves
Street Fighter:6 far standing attacks+6 close standing attacks+6 Crouching attacks+2 throws+6 neutral jump aerials+6 diagonal jump aerials+(on average) 4 specials+1 Super+2 Ultras+1 Focus attack=40

It's possible.

 

[Hitzel]

Completely different. Speculation on what players are thinking isn't the same as speculating on what players have to work with within the game. One of those is part of commentating, the other probably shouldn't exist. If anything compare it to an item system like league maybe? I don't know anything at all about league but it's my understanding there are items you get within the game bought with gold throughout a match, but the difference then is that items are obtained mid-match and are commentate-able, whereas if custom moves are hidden from everyone until they're used, you only have a 1/3 chance of commentating correctly if the move hasn't been used yet.

@ TimeSmash : Was that not their argument to begin with?

In League, some stuff you buy in-game, others you come into the match pre-equipped.

In strategy games like League and Starcraft, there's a lot of time before the commentators get to see what players are actually going with. A lot of that time is taken up with speculation.

I mean, it happens in Marvel already when the commentators don't know what assist someone's went with. The commentators will say things like "If Player X has this assist, he can do this tactic to deal with blah blah blah" and then they can complete the thought when they see what assist is being used. It's really not that awkward, nothing that warrants banning the custom moves from tournaments lol.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Yep, I've actually been convinced. Kudos everyone. Let's not restrict custom moves until we learn more about them--some builds may end up being Metaknight levels of broken, but let's also keep build switching something done by the loser as part of their counterpicking to avoid a situation where the winner of game one switches to a strong build to clinch the set in two games. That just kills competitive hype.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

You realize how unprofessional that makes them look right? It isn't a good thing for commentators to be consistently surprised, not by what the player is doing with their skill and usage of moves, but by moves existing in a given match at all.

Wouldn't be particularly unprofessional in this instance in my opinion. It's a little like Pokémon in this case. "So and so has to be careful of approaching in X manner because his opponent might have Y move, which wrecks that horribly if he tries it." Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Edit: 'd like 18 trillion times.

 

[Ganreizu]

Wouldn't be particularly unprofessional in this instance in my opinion. It's a little like Pokémon in this case. "So and so has to be careful of approaching in X manner because his opponent might have Y move, which wrecks that horribly if he tries it." Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

...That's a turn based game with literally 10x the customization options and still more viable tournament setups than smash4 custom moves. Not the same situation at all for commentary.

What's with comparing games that are nothing alike to make an argument? o.o

 

[TimeSmash]

@ TimeSmash : Was that not their argument to begin with? Also, profiles exist. I don't believe profiles show custom options without editing them and i'm damn sure no one is going to be editing profiles mid-tournament unless it was a mid-tournament decision to switch options in order to adapt.

I didn't think about profiles, but even in the worst case scenario, wouldn't the commentators know what people had set as customs once they used the move? Viewers should have general knowledge that custom moves exist, and should understand how those moves generally work. The same goes for players. You should be surprised on the first couple times they use the move if that, and then adapt accordingly. This is assuming players don't have to show eachother their movesets pre-battle, and if they did have to show them, then problem solved. If commentators have to wait for a special to be seen, it's not as if they don't have other things to talk about, such as character properties or specific non-special moves and ATs. Them not knowing doesn't necessarily mean they look unprofessional if people understand how custom moves work

 

[2fast]

What I don't want to see is the winner of a match switching out their build. That's just unfair, if anyone can switch builds lets make it the loser of the game. There. That's a fair compromise imo.

Honestly, that idea is not all that bad.

Wouldn't be particularly unprofessional in this instance in my opinion. It's a little like Pokémon in this case. "So and so has to be careful of approaching in X manner because his opponent might have Y move, which wrecks that horribly if he tries it." Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Edit: 'd like 18 trillion times.

^exactly. All that speculation type commenting can be good for hype too if something completely unexpected happens. I don't see a problem for commentators here. If a hype situation appears then the commentators can get hyped, and then proceed to comment on why *insert move here* was a good pick for the MU or something.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Honestly, that idea is not all that bad.

Thanks, my thinking behind it was that custom builds should be treated like new characters and we already don't allow the winner to change their character during a set. Otherwise you render the loser's counterpick totally moot.

 

[Ganreizu]

It's really not that awkward, nothing that warrants banning the custom moves from tournaments lol.

Absolutely not. That wasn't my argument in the first place. Just that custom moves should be known to both players and not be a surprise. It's less about the commentators and more about the players to be honest. If they're a mystery that means you have to pick an option and the opponent in your mind has 3x the amount of potential option coverage simply because custom moves exist, or 2x in the case of specials that have absolutely garbage variants. Know what i mean? A good example is shieks down-B customs. They're all vastly different, and they're all useful for edgeguarding. If you're going to pick an option, you have a lot more room to pick a terrible option because you don't know which variant she has (at least, for that first usage).

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

...That's a turn based game with literally 10x the customization options and still more viable tournament setups than smash4 custom moves. Not the same situation at all for commentary.

What's with comparing games that are nothing alike to make an argument? o.o

Because it is similar. As soon as picking moves affects the flow of the game before it even begins, there's a similarity. Yes, Pokémon has a lot more customization in theory, but in practice most Pokémon have like 10 viable sets and if you're doing anything different then you're stupid. That's less than the number of possible sets for each character in Smash 4. Of course, I imagine some things will be similar in that certain sets are "more viable" than others due to not wanting to overlap horizontal recoveries or vertical recoveries to a ridiculous extent, or similar, but even then the number of "viable sets" for each character could easily end up looking fairly similar. And if we assume that every character is viable in tournaments (which isn't entirely likely, but is certainly ideal), then that's about the same as the number of Pokémon in OU tier.

 

[TimeSmash]

Thanks, my thinking behind it was that custom builds should be treated like new characters and we already don't allow the winner to change their character during a set. Otherwise you render the loser's counterpick totally moot.

This is that rare case where I like the idea but I don't exactly want it, but it's actually much better than the default haha (letting both switch and see the builds). I don't think the counterpick (as a whole, I'm factoring in stage and character counterpicking as well, not just movesets) would be moot, but since custom moves seem to be very meta-centric in this game, having someone trump your trump doesn't really bode that well for the loser. In a less cryptic sentence, I think that idea is the best so far for in terms of counterpicking custom moves, it makes the most sense even though I'd like more freedom (but that isn't super feasible). I'm not sure if you mentioned if the winner would know the loser's counterpick moveset, sorry if you mentioned it before. Would they??