Custom Moveset Discussion

[Shaya]

This could be a series.
New to this game are custom moves and movesets and how we deal with them are yet to be seen.
Discuss custom move[sets] and their implications and possible impacts they will have on the competitive scene and rulesets.


Rules are complicated, especially for a game with as many options as Smash Brothers. Even beyond the menus given; certain tactics, strategies and situations require restrictions in ways that circumvent how the game naturally deals with them.
And what about outside the game? A ruleset exists to facilitate tournaments and competitive play, which also add many layers to what you have to be aware of. Entire sections dedicated to how to determine a winner, how events are structured and player conduct.

What usually impacts the implementation of any rule:

• Complicated to understand / hard to remember.
• Timing concerns: schedules need to be kept and there are only so many hours in a single day (or even up to a three day weekend as some majors are at this stage).
• Balance / Core Competitive Premises: There are certain skill sets prized within the Smash series and are most focused on. Elements or abilities which detract from these clash with players. "Should a competitive player be expected to learn and master these" or "Should we do anything about things which centralise the metagame". Very subjective.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I think custom moves have the potential to give more and/or different options to characters. This could help keep more characters in higher tiers of play and make matchups more varied. For this reason, we should at least allow them to be used and experimented with until evidence emerges that there is something wrong with them.

In regards to the bullet points:

• At their core custom moves are no more complicated than their default variations. Accessing them is quick and setting them up is easy.
• If the concern is unlocking them, that is no issue with the 3DS. Everyone should be reponsible for their own unlocks. As we do not yet know anything about how the wii u version handles custom moves, I can't say anything about it.
• Without experimentation we will not know any of these things. However, overcentralization is a big problem, and it should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I think we need a counter picking system to ensure that there is no imbalanced custom moves.

Like ban a single custom move, but you can't ban any others.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I think we need a counter picking system to ensure that there is no imbalanced custom moves.

Like ban a single custom move, but you can't ban any others.

Has there ever been a precedant for banning specific special moves?

 

[Shaya]

I think we need a counter picking system to ensure that there is no imbalanced custom moves.

Like ban a single custom move, but you can't ban any others.

That sounds like something over complicated.
Every player will need to know the 12 specials that a character has by number/option and then ban up 4 of them per game? What about the default special, should you be able to ban that?

Tournament sets already take a long time outside of actual play.

 

[Ganreizu]

Ignoring the question of availability and transfers, I believe legalizing custom moves will ease a large amount of discomfort people have with changes to veterans without being too ridiculous at the same time. I have seen quite a lot of hate on falco since the full game dropped because of the heavy nerfs all around but specifically his laser. His default laser is nowhere near as good as his customs, and his customs aren't impossible to deal with. Compare with ness or shiek, where they have a lot of legitimate choices for custom moves with clear pros and cons that both player and opponent have the ability to understand and deal with.

The problem is really just legalizing moves and then having to deal with moves that are actually "overcentralizing" instead of seemingly gimmicky but not. I can't really think of any custom moves that look overcentralizing but i also haven't seen then all yet either. Can anyone think of any custom moves that are "broken" from a competitive mindset?

 

[GamerGuy09]

That sounds like something over complicated.
Every player will need to know the 12 specials that a character has by number/option and then ban up 4 of them per set? What about the default special, should you be able to ban that?

Tournament sets already take a long time when we considering counter picking rules.

Maybe no limits of custom moves is a good idea, and just the meta evolve....

 

[Shaya]

It's still to be decided really whether or not there are actual varieties in choices at all at a competitive level.
Oh this Up-B travels a lot further but doesn't have a hitbox? I never use this Up-B to hit people.... #WIN [This may not be the case of horizontal recoveries who need hitboxes, but vertical ones plainly do not with the sweetspot mechanics]

Oh this side-b has longer range, but does a little less damage/knock back, but it isn't a good damage dealing option or kill option, so it doesn't matter; take the move that will just be better for poking/approaching.

etc etc etc

I personally would hope/prefer this to be the case (yes yes, I know, #sadness) because then we're dealing with the strongest iterations of a character and people are aware of their capabilities. If we have things like bans that would muddy that up completely and be horrible. If all custom moves have fair variations within them, I think that would also be bad in the long term as things will be really complicated, and would likely lead to me preferring them banned; but I could be wrong on that (Mii's and Palutena having such variety in theirs is what leads to a potential imbalance/unfairness).

 

[Demon-oni]

I don't think there should be notable bans for custom moves at the start, though perhaps editing the counter pick system so the matches become more interesting would be nice.

Something like ABBAB for picking would work, where A is the winner and B is the loser, and the rotation goes from characters, to moves, to the stage. Ideally the character should counter harder than moves, but moves would allow the match up to gain some wiggle room and even it out.

As far as restrictions go, for the 3DS there isn't a need to. And until the Wii U is released I can't say one way or the other on it.

 

[GamerGuy09]

It's still to be decided really whether or not there are actual varieties in choices at all at a competitive level.
Oh this Up-B travels a lot further but doesn't have a hitbox? I never use this Up-B to hit people.... #WIN [This may not be the case of horizontal recoveries who need hitboxes, but vertical ones plainly do not with the sweetspot mechanics]

Oh this side-b has longer range, but does a little less damage/knock back, but it isn't a good damage dealing option or kill option, so it doesn't matter; take the move that will just be better for poking/approaching.

etc etc etc

I personally would hope/prefer this to be the case (yes yes, I know, #sadness) because then we're dealing with the strongest iterations of a character and people are aware of their capabilities. If we have things like bans that would muddy that up completely and be horrible. If all custom moves have fair variations within them, I think that would also be bad in the long term as things will be really complicated, and would likely lead to me preferring them banned; but I could be wrong on that (Mii's and Palutena having such variety in theirs is what leads to a potential imbalance/unfairness).

I agree. Also this may be off topic, but I don't think we will have a character that would run the scene. Like Meta Knight.

There are like 51 characters or something, and the meta is going to evolve so much that I think no one will be on top.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I am completely in support of custom moves. Any rule dealing with them should be fairly cut-and-dry (either they're allowed or they're not), but the Treehouse stream on Friday showed that on the 3DS at least, setting up custom moves is a very simple matter, helped along by the fact that you can save up to 10 "profiles" per character. All of this can be done on the CSS, to boot. And while the Wii U has the extra issue of needing all custom moves unlocked for all characters, you only need to worry about your own character(s) on the 3DS, so getting them all should be a very simple matter. Again from the Treehouse, it turns out that any custom moves you find are more likely to be for the character you're using at the time.

As far as balance is concerned, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect players to be at least familiar with the custom options the opponent may choose to use. Complicated mechanics and character-specific options and tech aren't seen as an excuse for bans, and I see no reason why custom moves which can be acquired and documented by anyone should be any different. From an actual balance perspective, I find it unlikely that any one move will be so good as to warrant a ruling of any sort. The custom options we've seen so far all exhibit a pattern of give and take with various move properties, which should do a good enough job of keeping anything from getting out of hand.

 

[Hokori]

Nvm, I just thought about the question I had asked, and it's a silly one

 

[GamerGuy09]

Do we know which custom move(s) have been selected prior to playing, or are players completely blind to what their opponent has set up and will therefore have to figure out which custom variation they chose during the midst of the game?

In any case, I personally support custom moves. I'm just curious is all.

Yes on the Wii U version because they share the same screen.

No to the 3DS, unless they show each other.

 

[BooSex]

But does it really matter if you know what your opponent has chosen? It's pretty clear that the special moves give and take and are not broken in any way. As the game develops we'll have the knowledge to know which characters have what possible special options, so adjust according to ALL of the possibilities rather than just needing to know exactly what your opponent is using and banking off of that.

 

[DrakeRowan]

I will be a really sad panda if the competitive community ignores custom moves. I may not even pick up the game.
The only problem I have with custom moves is unlocking them all for every character, which may be problematic in the early stages in the games life.

It is the player's responsibility to know matchups beforehand, including the opponent's best custom set-ups. It isn't like this knowledge is limited as every player has access to all custom moves. They just need to unlock them and do thorough research.

If knowledge of what customs have been chosen are a problem for the 3DS, then just iterate a rule that requires both players to show their sets to each other before the fight begins. Done.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

But does it really matter if you know what your opponent has chosen? It's pretty clear that the special moves give and take and are not broken in any way. As the game develops we'll have the knowledge to know which characters have what possible special options, so adjust according to ALL of the possibilities rather than just needing to know exactly what your opponent is using and banking off of that.

Heck, if it turns out to be anything like pokemon there will likely be one or two best combinations and people will already have an idea what they're up against anyways.

Oh look, a Scizor. Gee, wonder what moves it has.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Heck, if it turns out to be anything like pokemon there will likely be one or two best combinations and people will already have an idea what they're up against anyways.

Oh look, a Scizor. Gee, wonder what moves it has.

Fury Cutter/X-Scissor/Struggle Bug/U-Turn @ Insect Plate. Swarm/Hardy/What the hell are IVs and EVs?

In all seriousness, I agree that once people get a handle on what everyone's options are a standard set of moves will develop, and the tier list will likewise assume that each character has the optimal known moveset. Although it'll be interesting if the ideal moveset for matchup A is different than the ideal moveset for matchup B. The question of counterpicking custom moves is something I don't feel qualified to talk about though.

 

[DJ Dong]

Personally I love custom moves. I would have it so that people are character locked and just end up choosing custom moves to counterpick their opponents character.

But I know that probably won't happen.

On topic though, let them be legal. They help diversify and balance the game as well as making it much more interesting. The CT tournament yesterday was very promising for them.

 

[ChillySundance]

memorizing custom movesets really is no more strenuous for any competitive player than memorizing groove effects in other competitive fighting games like Melty Blood : AA or assists in Marvel or Skullgirls.

Most of the changes to these moves are fairly benign and come with fair tradeoffs, I think the inconvenience for unlocking them is the only valid counter-argument to allowing them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Custom moves are in a lot of ways the blackest of the black boxes for smash 4 stuff. There are 612 custom moves in smash 4, and I'm not sure if any one person has seen even half of them yet. I can't begin to claim to understand the full metagame implications they'll have, and I'm pretty confident in saying no one else can yet either. However, the basic idea of the system is pretty sound with the potential to improve balance and increase depth, and similar if less ambitious systems have worked well in other fighters before (like ultra selection in Street Fighter IV). So while it probably won't be until November that we all actually have the game, have unlocked all the custom moves, and have collectively had enough time to actually go through them and actually begin to get a good starting point for how these particular moves play out, the core system idea isn't a bad one. We have reason to be optimistic it will work well even if we really can't even pretend to be sure.

We have also seen they're pretty fast and easy to assign, and while the unlocking procedure seems a fair bit more painful than we would like, it doesn't seem so onerous as to be likely to seriously derail the system. If you are sure you want them, the ruleset tweak is easy too; just pick custom moves after characters. For game one double blind it, and for games two and onward you just counterpick after characters (loser picks stage, winner picks character, loser picks character, winner picks moves, loser picks moves). It will add a trivial amount of time to sets, and while I know some people are uncomfortable with counterpicking moves, I think it will make a lot more sense and flow smoothly in practice since the main thing that might make you want to pick different movesets is that you want to use a particular set in response to an enemy character which is not a hard or long decision to make if freedom is given and the enemy character is already known to you.

The total uncertainty of long term implications combined with a pretty big lack of short term barriers suggest to me that the most prudent thing to do with custom moves is to start with them fully and unrestrictedly legal and let the early metagame evolve to show us how that works out. This is likely to allow us to figure out how good the system is more quickly than any other initial ruleset would, and then we can repeat this discussion armed with so much more information than we have now. I actually have a hunch that most of the correct decisions, whatever they may be, will be pretty obvious at that point, and we have a good chance of being able to make it through this with the best possible game and the fewest possible hurt feelings.

 

[guedes the brawler]

it's simple, we leave them on. if they work, we keep them, if they don't, we ban them.

if we don't try to play with them we'd never find out if they are viable or not.


Also, i think custom moves could be a counterpick instead of stages. like, if each player has 2 counter-picks, you could counter-pick a move or a stage, 2 moves or 2 stages. This, is only for when there are specials which massively change how the battle is played (projectiles, recoveries and movement specials seem to be those likely to get a ban once in a while) and could be done without; if the custom moves won't interfere much with THAT match-up, you just ban 2 stages.

or instead of banning a move,you give up one stage CP in order to equip your own CM.

 

[Gidy]

I'm not seeing why you would have to show them anyway. Smash is about adaptation, and this is just one way that encourages it. Like I said in my VGBC thread, these custom moves are like newcomers. You won't know what they are or what they do at first, but you will over time.

Also, GimR confirmed that you can bring your own 3DS to tournaments so it's not like we have to have one 3DS that has a capture card that has a whole bunch of special moves. So as long as you unlock the move moves you need and we have a Sonic the cameraboy to run off the stage I don't see a problem with time.

Edit: So besides timing concerns which I just shared this is my feelings toward custom movesets

 

[Shaya]

Hiding what options you pick seems like a no-go. But eh. The counterpick system is complex enough, to have an extra layer included through custom moves seems kinda crazy. Especially as I don't believe it'll be custom moves that change match ups drastically at all, stages and character themselves will.

The only variations in custom movesets that I think we'll see are:

• Recoveries
• Shines / Reflectors

If you're not as concerned about your recovery in the match up, you may choose the option that does more damage / kills / etc. However I think people will tend to not want to gimp their recoveries.

Shines/reflectors/etc is a unique thing (for the most part) and that gives them advantages against projectiles, but have usually limited use otherwise. Oh you're against Marth? Well fortunately I most likely have a version that doesn't reflect but does something else!

 

[Bladeviper]

Hiding what options you pick seems like a no-go. But eh. The counterpick system is complex enough, to have an extra layer included through custom moves seems kinda crazy. Especially as I don't believe it'll be custom moves that change match ups drastically at all, stages and character themselves will.

The only variations in custom movesets that I think we'll see are:

• Recoveries
• Shines / Reflectors

If you're not as concerned about your recovery in the match up, you may choose the option that does more damage / kills / etc. However I think people will tend to not want to gimp their recoveries.

Shines/reflectors/etc is a unique thing (for the most part) and that gives them advantages against projectiles, but have usually limited use otherwise. Oh you're against Marth? Well fortunately I most likely have a version that doesn't reflect but does something else!

idk i think some characters will use the other moves too, megaman for one i think will use all custom moves except maybe rush

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Custom moves are in a lot of ways the blackest of the black boxes for smash 4 stuff. There are 612 custom moves in smash 4, and I'm not sure if any one person has seen even half of them yet. I can't begin to claim to understand the full metagame implications they'll have, and I'm pretty confident in saying no one else can yet either. However, the basic idea of the system is pretty sound with the potential to improve balance and increase depth, and similar if less ambitious systems have worked well in other fighters before (like ultra selection in Street Fighter IV). So while it probably won't be until November that we all actually have the game, have unlocked all the custom moves, and have collectively had enough time to actually go through them and actually begin to get a good starting point for how these particular moves play out, the core system idea isn't a bad one. We have reason to be optimistic it will work well even if we really can't even pretend to be sure.

We have also seen they're pretty fast and easy to assign, and while the unlocking procedure seems a fair bit more painful than we would like, it doesn't seem so onerous as to be likely to seriously derail the system. If you are sure you want them, the ruleset tweak is easy too; just pick custom moves after characters. For game one double blind it, and for games two and onward you just counterpick after characters (loser picks stage, winner picks character, loser picks character, winner picks moves, loser picks moves). It will add a trivial amount of time to sets, and while I know some people are uncomfortable with counterpicking moves, I think it will make a lot more sense and flow smoothly in practice since the main thing that might make you want to pick different movesets is that you want to use a particular set in response to an enemy character which is not a hard or long decision to make if freedom is given and the enemy character is already known to you.

The total uncertainty of long term implications combined with a pretty big lack of short term barriers suggest to me that the most prudent thing to do with custom moves is to start with them fully and unrestrictedly legal and let the early metagame evolve to show us how that works out. This is likely to allow us to figure out how good the system is more quickly than any other initial ruleset would, and then we can repeat this discussion armed with so much more information than we have now. I actually have a hunch that most of the correct decisions, whatever they may be, will be pretty obvious at that point, and we have a good chance of being able to make it through this with the best possible game and the fewest possible hurt feelings.

I'd much rather just allow players to swap moves out between matches and not tie it into counterpicking. It seems a bit excessive to do otherwise. That is of course assuming people don't just pick a favorite set on each charcter and stick with it.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Wait, if people don't have to show each other what custom specials they picked, what's stopping someone from slipping in some equipment when no one is looking?

 

[2fast]

I was skeptical of custom moves at first since my original thought was that they would make characters far stronger than they were with their normal movesets but they seem pretty balanced. Each one has their own drawbacks and buffs and allow for more options and adaptations depending on the matchup or just personal preference. It's just like marvel assists and for anyone that has played yugioh competitively, custom moves can be compared to having a side deck to deal with specific matchups. It only helps that they can be changed at the CSS.

I don't think they need any sort of banning system. I'm all for em.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wait, if people don't have to show each other what custom specials they picked, what's stopping someone from slipping in some equipment when no one is looking?

When you assign equipment to a character, a colored circle appears next to their portrait indicating whether it's geared towards offense, defense, speed, or some sort of balance. A completely gray circle means there are no stat changes at all, or that every stat is negatively affected. (Although I'm not sure how the latter is possible...) I think this circle is visible to both parties, too.

This was gathered from watching the Treehouse stream and is from memory, so there may be nuances I missed, but that should be the gist of it.

 

[Gidy]

Hiding what options you pick seems like a no-go. But eh. The counterpick system is complex enough, to have an extra layer included through custom moves seems kinda crazy. Especially as I don't believe it'll be custom moves that change match ups drastically at all, stages and character themselves will.

The only variations in custom movesets that I think we'll see are:

• Recoveries
• Shines / Reflectors

If you're not as concerned about your recovery in the match up, you may choose the option that does more damage / kills / etc. However I think people will tend to not want to gimp their recoveries.

Shines/reflectors/etc is a unique thing (for the most part) and that gives them advantages against projectiles, but have usually limited use otherwise. Oh you're against Marth? Well fortunately I most likely have a version that doesn't reflect but does something else!

Why woud it be a no go?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'd much rather just allow players to swap moves out between matches and not tie it into counterpicking. It seems a bit excessive to do otherwise. That is of course assuming people don't just pick a favorite set on each charcter and stick with it.

I feel like in practice it will mostly just play out the way you're saying and that it's for the best, but you need to have a formally defined order in-between match decisions happen to avoid controversy when difficult situations arise wherein some player is attempting very hardcore mini-max of the in-between match game and is pushing every boundary that can be found. In terms of mitigating those difficult situations quickly, counterpicking seems best. For 3DS double blind is somewhat plausible in that you can both set stuff up at the same time, but you have to be careful for mutually paranoid players who maximally distrust each other. If we believe you should have to show your moves before the match starts (which I agree is probably the right call), what is to stop the player who shows second from picking a different load-out than his original intention or more problematically the first player insisting the second player could do that and that they need to take steps to avoid that possibility with the general steps necessary for double blind being pretty long? To me, just defining the order in terms of counterpicking makes more sense so at max only one double blind per match has to be mediated. Most players will just organically take shortcuts that are mutually acceptable to both parties (like just input their custom moves at the same time), but when the edge cases arise, the rules will be well prepared.

 

[Boy Jordan]

What usually impacts the implementation of any rule:

• Complicated to understand / hard to remember.
• Timing concerns: schedules need to be kept and there are only so many hours in a single day (or even up to a three day weekend as some majors are at this stage).
• Balance / Core Competitive Premises: There are certain skill sets prized within the Smash series and are most focused on. Elements or abilities which detract from these clash with players. "Should a competitive player be expected to learn and master these" or "Should we do anything about things which centralise the metagame". Very subjective.

The mechanics and general implications of customs are fully understood at this point; what remains is the memorization of each individual custom, which should take some time but shouldn't cause any problems. Regarding time, early game tests have showed that setting up customs takes little hassle, being accessible from the character select screen. The one issue that will take some arguing over is the matter of balance.

I believe Sakurai mentioned in an interview that the development team did not take the time to balance any of the custom moves. (This is why they're disabled in With Anyone online play.) But I'd argue that the system itself inherently allows for what's called perfect imbalance: Basically, it's inevitable that there will be one set of customs on one particular character that will shine above the rest. As people start recognizing this, they'll start using that combination more and more, which will cause others to start looking for a completely different combination to counter it, and so on and so forth. Because there are so many options for so many characters, this will keep the metagame constantly shifting. There are videos and articles out there that can better detail perfect imbalance than I can, and I encourage everyone to do a quick search on it if you're not already familiar.

Custom moves have the potential to offer this game loads of depth, and I am excited and hopeful that our scene will fully embrace them. As far as applying tourney rules to them goes (order in counterpicking, etc.), I won't pretend to know the best option at this stage of the game; we'll have to allow time to feel out what the best options are.

 

[Sliq]

I think your opponent banning which custom moves you can use is dumb. Your opponent should have absolutely no say in how you play your character.

I think custom movesets should ABSOLUTELY be allowed. The only caveat is that each person should be aware of the set before the match starts. Matchup knowledge is important and fighting games, and you shouldn't have to guess what a characters options are.

I mean in 3rd Strike, Street Fighter 4, and MVC3 you get to pick which Super/Ultra/Assist you use, why wouldn't custom movesets be allowed?

Seriously, Marvel has a million characters and a million assists, stop acting like a little variation is mindboggling. I don't even PLAY THAT GAME and I can follow the assists and how they work. It's the same damn thing.

I do agree that the first tournaments might want to ban them just to focus on things like stage bans, item bans, stock number, and time limit, as well as to give people time to actually unlock things.

The only time custom movesets should be banned is in the event that one of them is particularly game breaking.

 

[HandsomeDuval]

memorizing custom movesets really is no more strenuous for any competitive player than memorizing groove effects in other competitive fighting games like Melty Blood : AA or assists in Marvel or Skullgirls.

Most of the changes to these moves are fairly benign and come with fair tradeoffs, I think the inconvenience for unlocking them is the only valid counter-argument to allowing them.

This. A lot of arcade fighting games have a certain degree of customization, albeit not to the same degree we're dealing with here. This brings Mortal Kombat X to mind. I like how that game is introducing different play styles for each character. Again, it's much smaller than what we have here in terms of combinations but it still broadens the metagame. It gives us a chance to develop new techniques for characters that we wouldn't have the chance to had customization not been an option.

 

[Mettie7]

Please don't let this become Smogon

I didn't vote bc I don't agree with either option, I think they should both be viable but separated. I'm guessing there will be standards and then there will be customs which in turn makes two tier lists. Picking the moves doesn't take long at all and wont eat up too much time unless the participants do it on purpose, it literally takes like 10 seconds max. Even with 48 characters, some will just be picked more than others. Some characters won't be chosen as often and some moves wont be chosen as often either so you wont have to remember ALL of them, and even then it won't be hard to remember them, have you seen Pokemon?

tl:dr, standards will be more popular than customs for sure, but the customs meta will get really deep.

Wait, if people don't have to show each other what custom specials they picked, what's stopping someone from slipping in some equipment when no one is looking?

Also if it's a tourney everyone watching in person and in streams will know

 

[TimeSmash]

Because we know how banning goes in this community, it is much much better to test custom moves than be preemptively scared and ban all of them outright. How about no haha. Custom moves give a lot of variety to characters, and we all know that even a single move can affect gameplay drastically (imagine a spacie without lasers, Peach without her turnips, etc). Why not allow characters who are doing bad on the tier list improve? As for "it's hard to remember all the custom moves", that's not really an argument...previously Smash has had characters with wildly different movesets, and the reactions to many of those moves fall in the same spectra. You need to know how to space, and you should be used to general things like how to deal with projectiles and angled Ftilts/Smashes. While the logic isn't exactly the same, it's close enough for you to need to discern between completely different moves like Plautena's customs versus a move that is simply a variant on the same thing. If you can't remember all the moves (and you probably won't), you just need to learn how to react to them. Just because there's a lot doesn't make that a valid argument.

As far as setting up goes, it would be wise to have the players know what moves each one is using. As time develops we can have 3DS gameplay uploaded to big screens (which might exist already), and clearly see what our opponent is doing. Checking the other person's screen isn't unheard ofm and once you are both good to go, you should just start the game, possibly having something like "a point of no return" where you have set your moves, and cannot go back to change them. Streamlining this might take time, but customizing shouldn't take very long, even a full minute seems plethoric in most cases.

I won't be surprised if some custom moves get banned, and honestly, why shouldn't they? We don't need another Mach Tornado on our hands, and the fact we can ban the move rather than the character is an interesting twist on the meta

 

[Untouch]

The only problem I see is palutena's custom moves, all the others are just variations, so you know what to expect.

 

[Detkanin]

I am to execute a tournament the day after release of the 3DS version. So far the local community suggest not having custom moves in as most players won't have everything unlocked. But I feel like we just need to get the meta started. if this tournament ends up with a winner with a specific move set, people will start to adjust before going to the next tournament - hence the meta game is on.

But again, it might take up too much time between matches when everything is all new to all players (and I am expecting quite a lot of new smash players in general at this tournament).

When it comes to rules, I think there is something cool about not only having to counter pick a stage according to character, but also to the opponents play-style. And further more if your opponent is choosing the stage to play on; deciding what custom move set to go with. Maybe you have a series of different customer sets on your main character, to go with certain stages?


A suggested to counter picking: Best of 3 matches.
1st round 1-2-1 (or 1-2-2-1 - however the stage pool works) - In this match up only characters normal moves allowed.
2nd round. Winner bans 2--4 stages (according to stage pool). Looser chooses stage. Winner picks character (and move set). Loser picks character (and move set).
3rd round will repeat the process.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

It's still to be decided really whether or not there are actual varieties in choices at all at a competitive level.
Oh this Up-B travels a lot further but doesn't have a hitbox? I never use this Up-B to hit people.... #WIN [This may not be the case of horizontal recoveries who need hitboxes, but vertical ones plainly do not with the sweetspot mechanics]

Oh this side-b has longer range, but does a little less damage/knock back, but it isn't a good damage dealing option or kill option, so it doesn't matter; take the move that will just be better for poking/approaching.

etc etc etc

The only variations in custom movesets that I think we'll see are:

• Recoveries
• Shines / Reflectors

If you're not as concerned about your recovery in the match up, you may choose the option that does more damage / kills / etc. However I think people will tend to not want to gimp their recoveries.

Shines/reflectors/etc is a unique thing (for the most part) and that gives them advantages against projectiles, but have usually limited use otherwise. Oh you're against Marth? Well fortunately I most likely have a version that doesn't reflect but does something else!

I have a proposal to make to everyone.

Custom moves that change attack properties would most likely be fine. For some characters, each offensive custom variation will have their own perks and counters, and it would just come down to a matter of preference (or character-specific matchups). While in other cases, one version might clearly better than the rest. Even if this were the case, it shouldn't be a problem. Unless there is clear indication of a certain move being overpowered, none of these types of custom moves should warrant being banned. All they would do is increase the latent potential of the characters that have them, and provide an overall raised "power level" across the board of characters: Promoting more exciting, and faster matches.


Now then, let's turn to the ugly side of custom moves: Recovery/Up Special variations. What is the problem with these, you might ask? Well then, let's go over them, shall we?

- Most recovery alterations have a more damaging version (with weaker recovery), and a stronger recovery version (with less/no damage).
- The stronger recovery version is the real problem here. This is a problem because recoveries are almost never used to actually attack, thereby making other variations of the move nearly useless. Why bother using the basic or stronger version, when people are almost always going to pick the one that has the best recovery?
- This is a huge problem for two reasons. One, it raises the recovery potential of the entire roster, promoting longer and less exciting matches. And two, it goes against the very principal of why custom moves exist in the first place. What I mean by this is that because people are almost always going to pick the best version of an Up Special based upon how well it can let you recover, there is no point in picking the other two variations.


Custom moves are in their infancy right now, and I wholeheartedly feel as though we should give them a chance. There is a lot that we can learn, discover, and have fun with by allowing them a chance to be used in a competitive environment. We can potentially create an entirely new, and exciting metagame this way; and further solidify the unique charm of Smash 4 to the masses. Currently, there is not enough information on them to warrant an across-the-board ban against them. Nor any one move has been discovered yet to warrant it's own specific ban.

However

I feel as though that Recovery/Up Special variations already have enough information to contradict my above paragraph, and have elements that would be toxic to a competitive metagame. There is little to no reason to pick over variations of an Up Special outside of the one that offers the best recovery, and that stifles options in regards to choice of selection. Additionally, it allows ALL characters to live longer, and thus it would exponentially draw out matches on a grand scale.


Therefore, I propose an across the board ban on Up Special Custom Moves to help avoid said problems I have stated above. This is not me saying that all custom moves should be banned, just the Up Special variations. I feel as though, if we are going to allow custom moves to become a part of the competitive metagame, Default Up Specials should be the only ones available.

Also, if it is okay with the moderators, I would like to make a separate poll from this topic discussing this issue. Thank you in advance.

 

[Bladeviper]

The only problem I see is palutena's custom moves, all the others are just variations, so you know what to expect.

even thats not really a problem since from the outset people can look and see what her moves are since you start with them unlocked, same with the mii

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have a proposal to make to everyone.

Custom moves that change attack properties would most likely be fine. For some characters, each offensive custom variation will have their own perks and counters, and it would just come down to a matter of preference (or character-specific matchups). While in other cases, one version might clearly better than the rest. Even if this were the case, it shouldn't be a problem. Unless there is clear indication of a certain move being overpowered, none of these types of custom moves should warrant being banned. All they would do is increase the latent potential of the characters that have them, and provide an overall raised "power level" across the board of characters: Promoting more exciting, and faster matches.

Now then, let's turn to the ugly side of custom moves: Recovery/Up Special variations. What is the problem with these, you might ask? Well then, let's go over them, shall we?

- Most recovery alterations have a more damaging version (with weaker recovery), and a stronger recovery version (with less/no damage).
- The stronger recovery version is the real problem here. This is a problem because recoveries are almost never used to actually attack, thereby making other variations of the move nearly useless. Why bother using the basic or stronger version, when people are almost always going to pick the one that has the best recovery?
- This is a huge problem for two reasons. One, it raises the recovery potential of the entire roster, promoting longer and less exciting matches. And two, it goes against the very principal of why custom moves exist in the first place. What I mean by this is that because people are almost always going to pick the best version of an Up Special based upon how well it can let you recover, there is no point in picking the other two variations.


Custom moves are in their infancy right now, and I wholeheartedly feel as though we should give them a chance. There is a lot that we can learn, discover, and have fun with by allowing them a chance to be used in a competitive environment. We can potentially create an entirely new, and exciting metagame this way; and further solidify the unique charm of Smash 4 to the masses. Currently, there is not enough information on them to warrant an across-the-board ban against them. Nor any one move has been discovered yet to warrant it's own specific ban.

However

I feel as though that Recovery/Up Special variations already have enough information to contradict my above paragraph, and have elements that would be toxic to a competitive metagame. There is little to no reason to pick over variations of an Up Special outside of the one that offers the best recovery, and that stifles options in regards to choice of selection. Additionally, it allows ALL characters to live longer, and thus it would exponentially draw out matches on a grand scale.

Therefore, I propose an across the board ban on Up Special Custom Moves to help avoid said problems I have stated above. This is not me saying that all custom moves should be banned, just the Up Special variations. I feel as though, if we are going to allow custom moves to become a part of the competitive metagame, Default Up Specials should be the only ones available.

Also, if it is okay with the moderators, I would like to make a separate poll from this topic discussing this issue. Thank you in advance.

You seem to be forgetting that a lot of characters have special moves other than their up special that can be used to recover. Fox, Luigi, ZSS come to mind, and Bowser has a variant on his side B that turns it into a recovery option. Then you have Jigglypuff and Yoshi, whose up specials aren't recovery based at all. Furthermore, some specials are both used for recovery and have non-recovery applications that the character is known for, such as Luigi's sweetspot punch, which can have valid tradeoffs in the custom selection. This proposed ban is ultimately arbitrary with its decision of what constitutes a recovery move, and including certain other specials makes it even more arbitrary and comes across as attempting to artificially balance the game. I can't support it.