Custom Moveset Discussion

[ElectricCitrus]

Well I'd imagine they would if it was a situation where it's the grand finals and everything is being projected on a giant screen. :/

 

[Boy Jordan]

Thanks, my thinking behind it was that custom builds should be treated like new characters and we already don't allow the winner to change their character during a set. Otherwise you render the loser's counterpick totally moot.

Yeah, this is a good way to go about it. I'd fully agree that a Samus that uses a certain loadout is a separate character from one that uses another. Marth and Lucina are considered separate because of minor property differences alone. It was the same for clones in Brawl, Melee, and 64. That's likely how we'll see tournament organizers approach customs, myself included.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Yep, though I will say for the Tournaments I run online I'm going to ask people at least disclose that they'll use custom builds that way I can let people know to be watchful of them.

 

[TimeSmash]

Well I'd imagine they would if it was a situation where it's the grand finals and everything is being projected on a giant screen. :/

Caution!!!

I didn't know how I didn't think of that haha

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Also maybe we should have a stipulation that you have all builds you might possibly use premade so you're not faffing about in between games getting stuff setup. They can be saved as profiles so I don't see why we wouldn't' take full advantage of that.

 

[TimeSmash]

If people are smart about what they want, I don't see it being too much of an issue. What you suggested is entirely possible, but as with characters, some people may use a custom move(s) interchangably. Your suggestion covers this too, as they could easily go in an edit it. Maybe a time limit of editing should be imposed? Something like a minute seems generous enough.

Also I forgot to ask you, if the loser counterpicks another character, do they then have to reveal the moveset they're using for that character??

 

[ElectricCitrus]

If people are smart about what they want, I don't see it being too much of an issue. What you suggested is entirely possible, but as with characters, some people may use a custom move(s) interchangably. Your suggestion covers this too, as they could easily go in an edit it. Maybe a time limit of editing should be imposed? Something like a minute seems generous enough.

Also I forgot to ask you, if the loser counterpicks another character, do they then have to reveal the moveset they're using for that character??

I would think so, or at the very least say: Hey I'm picking Peach and I'm using a custom build. Again saves time and gets the idea across nicely.

 

[Gunla]

@ TimeSmash
A minute seems enough (editing on the fly is very easy to do with Smash 3DS).

Of course, if someone was to counterpick with character X and use a custom, I'd think it should be said, "I have custom special # for this special", and so on. If unsaid, it should be assumed CS1 is always used, yeah?

 

[Boy Jordan]

I agree that the winner shouldn't be able to switch out their customs, but I don't see any reason why the player counterpicking should have to announce their loadout. Zelda players in Melee certainly didn't have to announce if they were going Sheik or not. The loser should always know what they're picking against, but the winner doesn't necessarily reserve that same right. It's for that reason that Brawl players were allowed to counterpick using the random slot, although few did.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thanks, my thinking behind it was that custom builds should be treated like new characters and we already don't allow the winner to change their character during a set. Otherwise you render the loser's counterpick totally moot.

The SBR official ruleset has always allowed the winner to change their character.

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character
3. Loser picks character

This is known as "Advanced Slob Picks" and has been a national standard since the early days of Melee.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Hence why

The SBR official ruleset has always allowed the winner to change their character.

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character
3. Loser picks character

This is known as "Advanced Slob Picks" and has been a national standard since the early days of Melee.

Yes they pick it before loser picks, my qualm was assuming the opposite.

 

[Thinkaman]

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character
3. Loser picks character
4. Winner picks customs
5. Loser picks customs

This is the framework we've been assuming will be followed. We can expect few players to actually change their customs match-to-match.

I think notification of customs, just like implicit notification of character, is a good standard. (It is mandatory/implicit on the Wii U version...)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What I don't want to see is the winner of a match switching out their build. That's just unfair, if anyone can switch builds lets make it the loser of the game. There. That's a fair compromise imo.

This sounds like a perfectly acceptable position.

EDIT: And I'm dumb for replying immediately through my alerts instead of following the thread properly, I'm way behind the conversation.

 

[Boy Jordan]

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character
3. Loser picks character
4. Winner picks customs
5. Loser picks customs

This is the framework we've been assuming will be followed. We can expect few players to actually change their customs match-to-match.

I think notification of customs, just like implicit notification of character, is a good standard. (It is mandatory/implicit on the Wii U version...)

I don't like the idea of having the winner choose their customs after the loser already chose their character. There are bound to be certain loadouts that perform better against whatever character, and that takes away from the loser's ability to counter properly.

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character and customs
3. Loser picks character and customs

This more closely matches Advanced Slob Picks.

 

[WizKick]

I think there should be no enforcement on them, other than unlock them yourself. I like the idea of my Megaman potentially playing slightly different than your Megaman. Mastering them all might and when to use them might be difficult for some. That's payoff for time spent though, and is totally fair.

 

[Demon-oni]

I don't like the idea of having the winner choose their customs after the loser already chose their character. There are bound to be certain loadouts that perform better against whatever character, and that takes away from the loser's ability to counter properly.

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character and customs
3. Loser picks character and customs

This more closely matches Advanced Slob Picks.

While I see where you're coming from, I think it would be very rare if at all that a character counter pick overall isn't more effective than a move set counter. True, the winner could in turn prepare a bit for the oncoming character, but in a situation similar to say, a Villager vs. Megaman, it doesn't matter what the winning Megaman picks for the most part, just one special from Villager takes half of his moveset and uses it against him. My point being that character counter picks will often give a larger advantage than trying to counter a character by changing a moveset, whom can in turn change their moveset to counter you harder.

Edit: And let me clarify, I realize full well the point of counter picking is to give the losing player some sort of advantage. The only thing I worry about is to what extent. Too much and 2-1's will occur every match and usually the first winner guaranteed to come back, but none at all and the losing player goes in without feeling like he can get a rhythm going. I think that the advantage the loser gets shouldn't be too overwhelming, or else usually like stated above whoever wins first round will likely win the match.

 

[popo12]

I don't really think it's necessary to let your opponent know what moves your using personally, at least not in the first match. By the time the meta game begins developing, players should know what movesets are optimal in which matchups, and what the character is capable of on the whole, and will plan around that. If a player manages to take their opponent by surprise with a strange or suboptimal build, I think their creativity should be rewarded.

That said, I do agree that winner shouldn't be able to change loadout if he can't change chracter. The loser should have some idea what he's actually counterpicking.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character
3. Loser picks character
4. Winner picks customs
5. Loser picks customs

This is the framework we've been assuming will be followed. We can expect few players to actually change their customs match-to-match.

I think notification of customs, just like implicit notification of character, is a good standard. (It is mandatory/implicit on the Wii U version...)

This order makes the most sense, but I think to cut down on setup times, we should adopt the following:

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character
3. Loser picks character
4. Both players set up custom moves, double-blind

I don't think we're going to see many situations where specific moves have viable counter-picks after characters have been selected, so double-blind picks would save a lot of time.

 

[Boy Jordan]

While I see where you're coming from, I think it would be very rare if at all that a character counter pick overall isn't more effective than a move set counter. True, the winner could in turn prepare a bit for the oncoming character, but in a situation similar to say, a Villager vs. Megaman, it doesn't matter what the winning Megaman picks for the most part, just one special from Villager takes half of his moveset and uses it against him. My point being that character counter picks will often give a larger advantage than trying to counter a character by changing a moveset, whom can in turn change their moveset to counter you harder.

Yeah, in the case of hard counters, the order of picks might not matter much. But these rules will almost definitely become standards, so we should consider how they'd affect any and every situation. I think we should take into account that most players likely won't be using a pool of characters in tournaments that go beyond one to three core picks. Let's imagine that Player 1 and Player 2 finished their first match, P1 having won. P2 picks the stage, and P1 switches his character. P2 doesn't have any definite counters to this and picks a character that at least can hold its own. P1 then gets the chance to tweak the matchup in his favor through customs, and it so happens that P2's character doesn't have a matched response. They enter their second match with a 55/45 win rate in P1's favor.

Now, one could argue that if any player doesn't have a diverse pool of characters, it's their problem. I even agree with that. But the point I'm trying to make is that the winner would have too many chances to revert counters in that order of picks. The stage is picked first already to ensure the loser doesn't gain unreasonable advantage, and that's been a pretty balanced way of doing things. I just worry that also allowing them to react to their character counter in the form of customs negates that edge we're trying to provide the loser.

1. Winner picks character
2. Loser picks stage
3. Loser picks character
4. Loser picks customs
5. Winner picks customs

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character
3. Winner picks customs
4. Loser picks character
5. Loser picks customs

I mean, there are multiple ways of doing it, and I'd definitely like to hear everyone's arguments for their preferred order, but I'd like to insist that winners only have the opportunity to react to either the counter stage or the counter character, not both.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I say, on a base level and not going into specifics, I would allow custom moves. How to dictate when and how you can use them, that's for later I imagine, but they add so much to this game and can potentially change a ton of MUs and allow for a LARGELY more diverse metagame.

 

[TimeSmash]

1. Winner picks character
2. Loser picks stage
3. Loser picks character
4. Loser picks customs
5. Winner picks customs

1. Loser picks stage
2. Winner picks character
3. Winner picks customs
4. Loser picks character
5. Loser picks customs

Both of these sound pretty reasonable, but what if the winner stays the same character? Are their custom moves already locked in from the last match then?? It's hard because it would be REALLY unfair to make the winner stay the same character (like wat), but each character also has different custom moves. Also, would the loser get to see the winner's customs before starting, or not??

 

[L9999]

The tournament made in ClashTournaments used custom moves and they worked fine.

 

[TimeSmash]

The tournament made in ClashTournaments used custom moves and they worked fine.

Oh? How did they set it up??

 

[NewGuy79]

Yep, I've actually been convinced. Kudos everyone. Let's not restrict custom moves until we learn more about them--some builds may end up being Metaknight levels of broken, but let's also keep build switching something done by the loser as part of their counterpicking to avoid a situation where the winner of game one switches to a strong build to clinch the set in two games. That just kills competitive hype.

I've posted what i think would be a good rulset on a different forum I'd lke to know if this is somthing that you might like to see?

1. First round is blind pick for both characters and custom moves
2. Second round winner pick character

• Loser counter picks character
• Winner picks custom moves
• Loser counter picks custom moves

this type of ruleset is akin to how they handle choosing assist in UMVC3 so I think adopting a similar type of counter picking is ideal for keeping custom moves fair in tourney.

( however this is assuming that custom moves do indeed change the fundamentals of the character once they are picked, if fox still counters Bowser regardless if he has custom moves on or off then I think the winner loser counter picking process needs to be adjusted )

like so;

• Winner picks character
• Loser counter picks character and custom moves
• Winer counter picks custom moves

In this case the lose only gains one counter pick agents the winner instead of 2, this would probably be the fairer rule set if custom moves don't fundamentally change a characters viability agents another. this is because even tho the loser gets to counter pick to a favourable match-up, the winner could possibly change a 7 to10 match-up into hypothetically a 5 to 10 match-up; meaning that more victories could be attributed to player skill rather than "well he counter picked my character" or " he counter picked me with custom moves" and that always good.

what do you think?

[EDIT] welp I got hard XD

 

[MechaWave]

Oh? How did they set it up??

I don't know the specifics but they were all legal. From what I saw, they allowed you to pick your custom moves and switch after the match was over, if you wanted to, winner or loser. Though most people just picked their setup and sticked with it. (If you want to see any in action, it's on their YouTube.) The matches were much more intense with customs on and seemed enjoyable, I don't think they should be banned at all.

 

[TimeSmash]

I don't know the specifics but they were all legal. From what I saw, they allowed you to pick your custom moves and switch after the match was over, if you wanted to, winner or loser. Though most people just picked their setup and sticked with it. (If you want to see any in action, it's on their YouTube.) The matches were much more intense with customs on and seemed enjoyable, I don't think they should be banned at all.

I want to watch this but can't yet haha. But yeah, for the most part it sounds like the moves add flair to the meta, and we haven't seen any exploits yet. I'm sure things resembling infinites or IDC would be banned. Were we actually to come up with an established ruleset, I don't see why custom moves would be a big deal. Maybe they could be relegated to a side event if people are really so offended, but they seem to mesh quite well so far. Why not at least give them a chance before we dismiss them??

 

[powerprotoman]

okay personally i belive a standardized custom move set be manditroy for dr mario, dark pit, and lucina
this way they play differently enough from their character originator
i also think that if a master 3ds can transfer data to multiple wiiu's we make alph and the koopalings there own characters
Example we make alph have a set stat increase/decrease and a set custom move set same with the koopalings
heres how i envision the koopalings
Bowser jr: default
Lemmy: faster and less defense with the faster custom moves
Wendy: default stats faster custom moves
Larry: high speed with more defense mix of custom moves
Iggy: high attack low defense mix of default and faster custom moves
Roy: high attack low speed mix of powerful and default custom moves
Morton: high attack and defense and all powerful custom moves
Ludwig: default stats powerful custom moves

again this is just my idea for the wiiu scene i just feel that if you have the announcer and crowd chanting your name your a character

 

[WizKick]

okay personally i belive a standardized custom move set be manditroy for dr mario, dark pit, and lucina
this way they play differently enough from their character originator
i also think that if a master 3ds can transfer data to multiple wiiu's we make alph and the koopalings there own characters
Example we make alph have a set stat increase/decrease and a set custom move set same with the koopalings
heres how i envision the koopalings
Bowser jr: default
Lemmy: faster and less defense with the faster custom moves
Wendy: default stats faster custom moves
Larry: high speed with more defense mix of custom moves
Iggy: high attack low defense mix of default and faster custom moves
Roy: high attack low speed mix of powerful and default custom moves
Morton: high attack and defense and all powerful custom moves
Ludwig: default stats powerful custom moves

again this is just my idea for the wiiu scene i just feel that if you have the announcer and crowd chanting your name your a character

I don't want decisions made for me based on which costume I like.

 

[Roxas215]

Either their allowed or their not. Allowing them but then allow move strikes and all this other nonsense is just going to be too cluttered.

Im all for allowing them though. Adds alot mroe variety to movesets and just adds to the overall spectator.

Also if custom moves are allowed then so should Miis. There's really no way around that.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

If unpredictability is a problem, just requite that custom move choices be disclosed prior to the match (doesn't look like an issue on the Wii U version). I was concerned about them at first, but they look like a legitimate mechanic that can add viability to otherwise underused characters.

 

[Cactusblah]

The only concerns I have with custom moves is whether or not they are disclosed to both players and how much longer it would take to set them up every match, though this is probably more of a concern for the Wii U version.

I think in any case, both players should know each others' custom moves before the match.

 

[Wyntir]

Custom move sets make the tourneys more challenging. Now the fighters aren't so predictable.

I watched a 1v1 fight Rob vs Mario. Mario had 2 custom moves being used that I've noticed ( side B n neutral B).
Talk about game-changer bcuz the player using Rob had to adapt to the different effects that those moves had.

That's y I think cms (custom move sets) r amazing

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I dunno man custom moves are pretty broken mario's custom side b witch flips AND BLOWs thats just ridiculous and is better than the normal one in every way. i understand why sakurai made then not online. Besides he said that hes was throwing balance to the wind with them anyway.

 

[VKatana]

I'm sure someone somewhere will compile a list of S/A tiers custom movesets for each characters which aren't completely OP or bullsh**. Once we have some sources like that, maybe they'll be allowed at tourneys, or maybe there'll be an official list of set "Tourney Movesets" which each character can equip to make themselves S/A tier. I'm hoping it's like that, because then choosing a main essentially comes down to matchups and playstyles, aside from preference. We could finally see some more diversity among competitive mains. If anyone could keep their eyes peeled or notify me if something like my hypothetical "Tourney Movesets" pops up, I'd be extremely grateful.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The only concerns I have with custom moves is whether or not they are disclosed to both players and how much longer it would take to set them up every match, though this is probably more of a concern for the Wii U version.

I think in any case, both players should know each others' custom moves before the match.

I'm not sure what the point of disclosing custom moves is. For the first match at least, double blind seems to be the best way to go. But in general, it seems like it boils down to memorization vs. improvisation, and Smash tends to lean a bit more towards the improv side with how DI can affect combos and so forth.

 

[Roxas215]

I dunno man custom moves are pretty broken mario's custom side b witch flips AND BLOWs thats just ridiculous and is better than the normal one in every way. i understand why sakurai made then not online. Besides he said that hes was throwing balance to the wind with them anyway.

They CAN be used online. Just not in for glory mode. Most likely because of the oppenent not being able to know what moves are being used. As far as tournaments i do want custom moves allowed but i do agree that each oppenent needs to know what moves are being used. Learning what custom moves for each character does is just another aspect of learning that specific character MU imo.

I dunno man custom moves are pretty broken mario's custom side b witch flips AND BLOWs thats just ridiculous and is better than the normal one in every way. i understand why sakurai made then not online. Besides he said that hes was throwing balance to the wind with them anyway.

There not broken. Most customs are just simply better then there standard B.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

They CAN be used online. Just not in for glory mode.

lol you got me there. but i think you still got my point anyway.

 

[NewGuy79]

Custom move sets make the tourneys more challenging. Now the fighters aren't so predictable.

I watched a 1v1 fight Rob vs Mario. Mario had 2 custom moves being used that I've noticed ( side B n neutral B).
Talk about game-changer bcuz the player using Rob had to adapt to the different effects that those moves had.

That's y I think cms (custom move sets) r amazing

I'd like to see that match, you got a link?

 

[Conda]

Custom moves will be legal, and a good reason is some characters start with a set of specials that are effective in 1v1s by Default. However, some characters have to swap to their specials that work best in a 1v2 competitive scenario (ie Ness's recovery with PKT2 is a huge change to his meta compared to PKT1 - not allowing custom moves tosses him down the tier lists).

Other characters have some similar situations going on. Megaman with his side B options, and down B options.

Not only that, but pro players are loving custom moves and they're fun to theorycraft about, and they are easy to set up as well.

 

[Wyntir]

I'd like to see that match, you got a link?

It was on the clash tournaments. I don't have a link.