Custom Moveset Discussion

[Emblem Lord]

"Adept Vantage", because I'm trying hard to be a FE nerd. And because uh, your set threatens to strike first and repeatedly.

SOLD!!!!

 

[RWB]

I'd say Stellar Vantage instead. Goes better with Marth, the Star Lord. +It brings to mind Astra, which also hits repeatedly.

 

[Pazzo.]

SOLD!!!!

Come to think of it, naming Custom Load-Outs would be extremely fun.. I can imagine Ness using all third customs would be called the 'Lucas' set.

On the subject of Ness, players will really benefit from his customs, especially the ones that change PK Flash.

 

[RenyNoise]

I'm so hyped! I was thinking I was gonna have to drop Falco because "No one's going to be down for custom moves" but the community being cool is relieving!

 

[Kel]

My biggest concern with custom moves is not knowing what my opponent is using. I don't mean not knowing what a move actually does; I'm concerned with lying/ accidents that end up impacting matches.

Example:
I'm Mega Man and decide tell my opponent that the only thing I'm changing is Leaf Shield to Plant Shield. My opponent is under the impression that I'm using crash bomb. Unbeknownst to me, I accidentally picked my custom that uses Danger Wrap (MM's over B alt that goes straight up in front of MM after being fired, does 12%, and can kill relatively early [especially in the air or high platforms]). Let's say that I already took a stock off my opponent without using over B at all. Then, he goes to attack me in the air and I over B and BAM he gets hit by danger wrap.

The game is halfway through and we just found out that I'm using Danger Wrap on accident. My opponent feels cheated because he wasn't able to assess my options correctly (through no fault of his own). I had every intention of choosing a custom that didn't use Danger Wrap, but accidentally selected it. Do we restart the whole match?

What happens when people lie on purpose in order to get an effective mulligan on games?

What happens when players have to customize moves on every Wii? Even uploading the customs from your 3DS is going to take time. A button check pregame could be done before every match where each player uses their 4 B moves to demonstrate their moveset to their opponent in order to prevent accidents/ lies like I listed above, but this is going to take a lot of extra time for tournaments. This is especially true when counter picking comes into play. In Brawl and Melee you only had to worry about what stage/ character choices your opponent had at their disposal. Now you have to worry about each B move along with their possible stages and characters. In turn, the counter picking player then gets to counter-choose their custom moves. It could be a lengthy process between each game for each player to re-customize new characters to counter each option their opponent has. This isn't even going into learning the names of EACH customized move/ nicknames that are to come for the moves. If you don't play Megaman, I would probably have to explain to you which move Danger Wrap is in order for you to properly be able to counter pick your character/ moveset.

I foresee a lot of murky rulings in the future of customization tournaments. I don't have a problem with trying them out in the beginning, I'm just aware of the ugliness that could come, and I want others to think about what they would do in these situations/ how they can prevent issues from arising before something happens.

 

[Thinkaman]

My biggest concern with custom moves is not knowing what my opponent is using. I don't mean not knowing what a move actually does; I'm concerned with lying/ accidents that end up impacting matches.

Custom sets can be named, and all mine are named "2231" or whatever. Enforcing this would provide a lot of sanity/transparency on the WiiU version--this needs to be done anyway, so that people who sit down at a new setup don't have to examine each custom set or make a new, redundant one.

 

[Remzi]

Custom sets can be named, and all mine are named "2231" or whatever. Enforcing this would provide a lot of sanity/transparency on the WiiU version--this needs to be done anyway, so that people who sit down at a new setup don't have to examine each custom set or make a new, redundant one.

I've been naming my sets this way as well. It does make this whole thing a lot more manageable.

My biggest concerns about custom moves are how tedious it is to unlock them- can we do save data transfers on wii u? Every setup that someone brings will have to have all custom moves unlocked?

The other one is that it creates a disconnect between the online and offline communities. For Glory is currently a wonderful stepping stone for a player to familiarize themselves with competitive play. People use it to practice, and a lot of that is null and void if the movesets that they are playing against / using are barely seen in tournament play. And I've also heard that it is impossible to tell if your opponent is using equipment online- so even competition dedicated sites like AllisBrawl (or now "Nintendo Dojo") can't enforce equipment restrictions without turning off customizations altogether.

I really, really love custom moves. So someone please talk me down from the ledge, I'd love nothing more than to be wrong.

 

[Thinkaman]

My biggest concerns about custom moves are how tedious it is to unlock them- can we do save data transfers on wii u? Every setup that someone brings will have to have all custom moves unlocked?

This is a bridge to cross when we get to it. Worst case, the following happens:

• It's hard/annoying to unlock customs on WiiU
• 3DS data cannot be used to permanently unlock WiiU data
• There is no hack/cheat discovered to trivially unlock them (there already is a powersave hack for 3DS)
  
• Some setups at a tourney do not have everything unlocked
• A player wants to use a set not unlocked on a setup, nor previously transferred from a 3DS
• You take an extra few seconds to transfer a profile from a 3DS

That's a lot of ifs, and it's still a narrow case. The AVERAGE case isn't bad; maybe most of your setups do have everything unlocked, the setup(s) without everything still have most stuff, and the important, frequently-used competitive sets it doesn't have have been transferred previously. (Including in advance at that very tourney.)

The other one is that it creates a disconnect between the online and offline communities. For Glory is currently a wonderful stepping stone for a player to familiarize themselves with competitive play. People use it to practice, and a lot of that is null and void if the movesets that they are playing against / using are barely seen in tournament play.

Fundamentals are still king. For all the good things custom moves do, specials are only a fraction of the game.

To some extent, I think the inherent lag of online play is about as much of a game-changer.

And I've also heard that it is impossible to tell if your opponent is using equipment online- so even competition dedicated sites like AllisBrawl (or now "Nintendo Dojo") can't enforce equipment restrictions without turning off customizations altogether.

First, I guarantee you that replay data can be sniffed to list equipment. Like, the data simply has to be there for replays to function. We just haven't cracked those files yet. (No need, previously.)

Second, meaningful stat changes are pretty easy to notice--for both offense, defense, and speed. You have to be really conservative (<10% for sure) to changes in anything to fly under the radar. Additionally, all of the special effects except easier powershield and sort of smooth-lander are really obvious.

Edit: The combined implication is that sneaking equipment into an online tourney is a very poor risk-reward. You get extremely little payoff, and it only takes one suspicious, paranoid, or just outright diligent opponent to ruin your online tourney career forever.

 

[Remzi]

This is a bridge to cross when we get to it. Worst case, the following happens:

• It's hard/annoying to unlock customs on WiiU
• 3DS data cannot be used to permanently unlock WiiU data
• There is no hack/cheat discovered to trivially unlock them (there already is a powersave hack for 3DS)
  
• Some setups at a tourney do not have everything unlocked
• A player wants to use a set not unlocked on a setup, nor previously transferred from a 3DS
• You take an extra few seconds to transfer a profile from a 3DS

That's a lot of ifs, and it's still a narrow case. The AVERAGE case isn't bad; maybe most of your setups do have everything unlocked, the setup(s) without everything still have most stuff, and the important, frequently-used competitive sets it doesn't have have been transferred previously. (Including in advance at that very tourney.)



Fundamentals are still king. For all the good things custom moves do, specials are only a fraction of the game.

To some extent, I think the inherent lag of online play is about as much of a game-changer.



First, I guarantee you that replay data can be sniffed to list equipment. Like, the data simply has to be there for replays to function. We just haven't cracked those files yet. (No need, previously.)

Second, meaningful stat changes are pretty easy to notice--for both offense, defense, and speed. You have to be really conservative (<10% for sure) to changes in anything to fly under the radar. Additionally, all of the special effects except easier powershield and sort of smooth-lander are really obvious.

Edit: The combined implication is that sneaking equipment into an online tourney is a very poor risk-reward. You get extremely little payoff, and it only takes one suspicious, paranoid, or just outright diligent opponent to ruin your online tourney career forever.

You're probably right about the replay binaries having some tell about custom equipment, I certainly hope so, anyways. Otherwise, there will be a lot of he-say she-say in regards to equipment claims. Good points on the unlocking aspect of it. In an absolute worst case scenario, I think the TO should have an "emergency 3DS" with everything unlocked to create any necessary custom sets. Or at least one person at the venue likely will.

I'm still a little shaky about "For Glory"'s limitations. Some character's play very differently with and without custom moves, but I think its negligible compared to the rewards. And as you pointed out, it's still a place for players to learn fundamentals which will be applicable at any level, with any ruleset.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm still a little shaky about "For Glory"'s limitations. Some character's play very differently with and without custom moves, but I think its negligible compared to the rewards. And as you pointed out, it's still a place for players to learn fundamentals which will be applicable at any level, with any ruleset.

For Glory is a fine "quickmatch" mode--it serves its purpose well. But we'll have customs in real competitive play, just as we will have non-FD stages.

 

[KingBroly]

I think Palutena's Customs should be allowed regardless of whether or not Customs are banned. It's the only Moveset that's fully customizable from the start and is accessible to everyone without jumping through hoops.

That said, I think Customs shouldn't be allowed. That include Mii Fighters.

 

[Shaya]

That doesn't make any sense at all. Why should Palutena get 8 more options than every other character because of "jumping through hoops"? Whilst Miis should get banned whilst having no hoops to deal with whatsoever either?

 

[Balgorxz]

Miis have been allowed in most tournaments with customs on fornow and almost no one picks them except some brawler here and there, so customs so far seem pretty balanced (except DK's mach tornado, seriously sakurai why)

 

[Kuraudo]

So a thought has occurred to me for the Wii U version of Smash. Can you spawn sandbags in the 3DS version? I forget cause I don't have items on. And if so do they still drop items or equipment?

With Stage Builder being leaked to return in the Wii U iteration, and if sandbags can produce items...

Replace CDs and Stickers (or keep CDs) for equipment bags that sandbags spawn infinitely and this creates a Customs Factory at our disposal.

Crossing my fingers on this one but I'd gamble this being a legit option.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Kel, in the situation where you accidentally had the wrong load-out, I would call it grounds for you to forfeit that game. If you're gonna use custom specials, make sure you (and, consequently, your opponent) know what you're using. I bet you won't make that mistake again after it costs you a set.

That said, I'm more than a little frustrated with learning custom specials as we go along. Dealing with things like Villager's Counter Seed would be a lot more manageable on a GameCube controller and with all the specials available to me in advance to practice, and there wouldn't be any confusion on the Wii U version, since everyone can see them. I think people should leave them out of tournaments until then as a result.

 

[deepseadiva]

That said, I'm more than a little frustrated with learning custom specials as we go along. Dealing with things like Villager's Counter Seed would be a lot more manageable on a GameCube controller and with all the specials available to me in advance to practice, and there wouldn't be any confusion on the Wii U version, since everyone can see them. I think people should leave them out of tournaments until then as a result.

Training wheel baby tournaments?

My biggest concern with custom moves is not knowing what my opponent is using. I don't mean not knowing what a move actually does; I'm concerned with lying/ accidents that end up impacting matches.

Is that level of explanation necessary? How much information do we really need to give opponents besides "I'm changing moves"?

 

[Dragoomba]

There's nothing more annoying than having a legitimate discussion about a character's meta-game, then someone comes in and mentions "well his/her custom moves really benefit him/her". Stfu.

Right now, this whole advocating of custom moves seems like a really desperate attempt to give the game more depth. The most common argument I hear for custom moves is "they're there, and they give characters more options, why wouldn't you use them?"

UMvC3 has Heroes and Heralds mode, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?
USF4 has Edition Select, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?

They can make for some fun and hype side-tournaments, but please leave them out of main competition.

 

[RWB]

There's nothing more annoying than having a legitimate discussion about a character's meta-game, then someone comes in and mentions "well his/her custom moves really benefit him/her". Stfu.

Right now, this whole advocating of custom moves seems like a really desperate attempt to give the game more depth. The most common argument I hear for custom moves is "they're there, and they give characters more options, why wouldn't you use them?"

UMvC3 has Heroes and Heralds mode, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?
USF4 has Edition Select, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?

They can make for some fun and hype side-tournaments, but please leave them out of main competition.

Please calm down a bit.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Depth of what. Regardless of anything once you enter a match you have 4 special moves.
The thing is if it aint broke it aint a problem. Custom moves aren't hampering competitive play as far as we see so far so there isn't a problem.
People are going to mention customs when customs are applicable to tournaments.

 

[deepseadiva]

There's nothing more annoying than having a legitimate discussion about a character's meta-game, then someone comes in and mentions "well his/her custom moves really benefit him/her". Stfu.

Right now, this whole advocating of custom moves seems like a really desperate attempt to give the game more depth. The most common argument I hear for custom moves is "they're there, and they give characters more options, why wouldn't you use them?"

UMvC3 has Heroes and Heralds mode, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?
USF4 has Edition Select, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?

They can make for some fun and hype side-tournaments, but please leave them out of main competition.

Could you eleborate more on those game modes you mentioned and why they're not used in tournament?

Currently it seems custom moves neither hinder tournaments finishing on time, or add randomness or another game breaking degeneracy... so why exclude (ie ban) them?

Also you mention how it's attempt to create depth... The depth is already there. It's not invented or anything.

 

[Thinkaman]

Could you eleborate more on those game modes you mentioned and why they're not used in tournament?

Heroes and heralds was a 3-slot deckbuilding system almost identical to equipment. It is nothing like custom special selection.

 

[PKNintendo]

Just chiming in to say that Thoron+ is way overrated. It's a straight up a liability in certain matchups.

 

[popsofctown]

Kel, in the situation where you accidentally had the wrong load-out, I would call it grounds for you to forfeit that game. If you're gonna use custom specials, make sure you (and, consequently, your opponent) know what you're using. I bet you won't make that mistake again after it costs you a set.

That said, I'm more than a little frustrated with learning custom specials as we go along. Dealing with things like Villager's Counter Seed would be a lot more manageable on a GameCube controller and with all the specials available to me in advance to practice, and there wouldn't be any confusion on the Wii U version, since everyone can see them. I think people should leave them out of tournaments until then as a result.

The loadout screen displays the name of all 3 custom specials. It doesn't seem like too much trouble to just show your loadout screen to your opponent before you lock it in.

Your other arguments for temporary illegality are ok, but I know it can be hard to unban things once they're banned so I have a slippery-slope fear of a 3DS custom specials ban resulting a less deep Wii U metagame.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

My screen shows it in Spanish; I know people who have the Japanese game. What then?

 

[FSLink]

There's nothing more annoying than having a legitimate discussion about a character's meta-game, then someone comes in and mentions "well his/her custom moves really benefit him/her". Stfu.

Right now, this whole advocating of custom moves seems like a really desperate attempt to give the game more depth. The most common argument I hear for custom moves is "they're there, and they give characters more options, why wouldn't you use them?"

UMvC3 has Heroes and Heralds mode, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?
USF4 has Edition Select, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?

They can make for some fun and hype side-tournaments, but please leave them out of main competition.

UMvC3 Heroes and Heralds mode doesn't have true local play (you can kinda do this in training mode with regenerating health/meter turned off but it's janky), so being online mode only really doomed it as a niche. There's also some clearly broken combinations of cards. There were a few side tourneys of this but it didn't really provide more options due to the hurdles of setting it up and how broke the mode was.

USF4 does have Edition Select tourneys but although it gives better versions of certain characters like Super Honda, it also gives access to much stronger characters like vanilla Sagat, vanilla Akuma, AE Yun, etc. It also can't be played online even in private lobbies until it's patched. Ultra is relatively balanced just by itself so people tend to stick with that as the main tourney game.

Comparing custom moves to Edition Select and Heroes and Heralds isn't really fair, it's more like changing up assists in Marvel or Ultras in USF4.

The loadout screen displays the name of all 3 custom specials. It doesn't seem like too much trouble to just show your loadout screen to your opponent before you lock it in.

Your other arguments for temporary illegality are ok, but I know it can be hard to unban things once they're banned so I have a slippery-slope fear of a 3DS custom specials ban resulting a less deep Wii U metagame.

Yeah even if they have a different language game you could just learn what each B move is. Expecting everyone to know this early on is unreasonable sure, but I don't think it'd be that hard to learn that Mario's 2333 loadout is Fast Fireball/Gust Cape/Explosive Punch/High Pressure FLUDD over time. Early tourneys can just have the opponent go to test real fast and show off the B moves.

 

[Shaya]

My screen shows it in Spanish; I know people who have the Japanese game. What then?

They all show the numbers that correspond.
Knowing which specials they have is all that's fair to know, how they work or how they're different is your responsibility.

 

[Kel]

Is that level of explanation necessary? How much information do we really need to give opponents besides "I'm changing moves"?

Yes, it is. Otherwise you won't know your opponent's options and he/ she could surprise you with a kill attack or something unexpected.
I gave the example of Megaman's over B, but other examples could be changing sheik's up B to be the spiking up B, changing Link's bombs to be the spiking bombs, changing ganon's punch to be the sword/ heavy armor/ shield breaking punch, etc.

If you don't know that your opponent has switched from the conventional characters' moves to these moves listed above it could cost you a stock at low percent (or even 0 in case of ganon!). That removes integrity of the game and creates a new dynamic of having to account for every custom move option your opponent has available until you see him/ her use the move. I don't think this is a dynamic that should be used to win tournament matches, so I think we need a rule to prevent it.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think regardless of whether concealed information is desired or not, the bottom line is that full transparency is the only reasonable and consistent way of running local WiiU matches.

All other policy should match this standard.

 

[FirestormNeos]

If custom moves aren't allowed, Palutena is screwed. Seriously, most of her default specials are AWFUL. Another Down-B Counter?! Don't we have like, eight (nine if you count ) people with counters in this game already?!

If we do, Tier List maker's jobs just got a whole lot harder. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If custom moves aren't allowed, Palutena is screwed. Seriously, most of her default specials are AWFUL. Another Down-B Counter?! Don't we have like, eight (nine if you count ) people with counters in this game already?!

If we do, Tier List maker's jobs just got a whole lot harder. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

I don't see how the end effect on building tier lists has anything to do with it one way or another. When evaluating a matchup between characters, it's natural to assume that each character will be using the optimal moveset for the other, or perhaps a general use one if one presumes double blind selection. Tier placement should follow from there, not the other way around.

Compare SFIV's Ultras, or MVC's assists.

 

[Leebee]

There's nothing more annoying than having a legitimate discussion about a character's meta-game, then someone comes in and mentions "well his/her custom moves really benefit him/her". Stfu.

Right now, this whole advocating of custom moves seems like a really desperate attempt to give the game more depth. The most common argument I hear for custom moves is "they're there, and they give characters more options, why wouldn't you use them?"

UMvC3 has Heroes and Heralds mode, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?
USF4 has Edition Select, it gives characters more options, why isn't that mode used in tournaments?

They can make for some fun and hype side-tournaments, but please leave them out of main competition.

yay for false equivalences!! yeah~~!!!

lol they're nothing like H&H which had no balancing in mind, and neither is edition select.

custom moves are akin to picking grooves in CvS2 or your meter/movement in KoF 98. it's that simple. until you can prove that there is some absolutely broken **** with a character's custom move, there is no reason to not have them available (if you've unlocked them all of course).

and even in that DOOMSDAY scenario... omg! the solution! is so tough--!!

just ban the single move.

 

[M15t3R E]

People will typically have to create their personalized custom character before beginning a match if custom moves are legal. When they do, you will see their choice of custom moves. If for some reason you don't see it, you can ask them.

 

[Cerberus290]

Won't characters most likely get standard sets that are used once people have experimented around with them? I'm willing to bet that not a single character will consider using all 12 moves competitively much less every character. The only difference I can see is that some customs may be used in certain match ups as opposed to others. I.E. Villager using his "Garden" special when against characters without items or pocketable moves, while using the regular one for the rest.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I don't see how the end effect on building tier lists has anything to do with it one way or another. When evaluating a matchup between characters, it's natural to assume that each character will be using the optimal moveset for the other, or perhaps a general use one if one presumes double blind selection. Tier placement should follow from there, not the other way around.

Compare SFIV's Ultras, or MVC's assists.

I was under the impression that Custom Moves would make the process take longer. Guess I was mistaken. Sorry.

 

[Critzilean]

I find custom moves no different from picking an assist in any other fighting game (especially Skullgirls, where EVERY move is fair game) so long as your opponent knows the set you are using. I haven't seen any that are particularly OP, in fact many are flat out terrible. As for tier lists, I imagine top priority will be a general one that only accounts for base moves, with more specialized ones being created later down the line.

 

[Galgatha]

I have to agree with most everybody here saying custom moves (only custom moves, no equipment) should be allowed in tournaments, especially Wii U tournaments once those are out. Seriously, you will be playing on the same screen, they will see what moves you choose at the start of the match!

Miis on the other hand, ive heard conflicting things about either 1) they are fair and use them or 2) they are OP and should be banned from tournaments

 

[LancerStaff]

Not entirely sure where to post this, as I don't see a general Mii discussion...

Apparently, Miis with custom moves will use them, even with customs off. Not sure if it's known, but I haven't exactly seen people talking about it either.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not entirely sure where to post this, as I don't see a general Mii discussion...

Apparently, Miis with custom moves will use them, even with customs off. Not sure if it's known, but I haven't exactly seen people talking about it either.

That's odd, but given how Miis are created and selected it makes a little sense. When you make a Mii, you pick between Brawler/Swordfighter/Gunner and can give it a set of custom moves at that time. On the CSS when you pick the Miis you're presented with a secondary menu where you choose the exact Mii you want. That would bypass the usual customs on/off toggle.

 

[ArticulateT]

In regards to the Miis, I made a few notes in the brawler's forum on the Competitive Implications thread, though I can't be considered among the true 'competitive' members of the Smash community. Regardless here's my two cents in action:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mii-...cene-implications.357742/page-7#post-17814210

In short, in tournaments with custom moves not allowed would likely result in the characters being banned, if not brought under a heaping series of restrictions and things by TOs since the character, or characters themselves are remarkably chaotic in comparison to the main cast, and while I would be a tad upset to see them go from the competitive scene, I would at least see why. Otherwise, it is slightly moot as a point. Exate has also done to careful analysis on the height/weight difference of the Miis which can be seen here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mii-height-width-analysis.373891/

Back on point, I think there's value in customs being allowed, since their core purpose is to permit players the ability to play characters to a given play style, and doing so would make the competitive scene potentially more active and fluid as it already is. There will likely be some administration to adhere to when it comes down to it, just to ensure that no equipment is being used and all that stuff.

I have seen some possibly broken combinations; Toon Link with Down Special 2 and some decent timing could quite literally turn into a flying hit-box that some range lacking characters would have a hard time dealing with.

All in all, I think customs should indeed be allowed, and then moderated and restricted, as preventing their use would make the task of experimentation and development of appropriate rules a longer, more isolated task.

 

[New_Dumal]

So... are movesets being used at tourneys ?
I watched some tourneys with Custom moves ON, others with Custom moves OFF.

I'm excited to play with custom, but I think the community should 100% decide about it.
Since I'm almost playing only for Glory and with friends until now, I'm not using them.
What is the best custom move until now ? Anything "broken" at all ?
I mean... Rosalina is all broken and I don't see anyone putting her off yet, so I don't think this is a valid argument.