Custom Moveset Discussion

[Shaya]

For the most part, Rosalina's all agree that she doesn't seem to get much out of custom moves.
This means for the rest of the cast, they're usually improving their match ups with her with customs, while Rosalina has no such options.

Several characters have longer range tools that allow them to break the zoning of the campers with success on their customs. Speed Drill on Meta Knight has great priority, amazingly fast and much longer range. From the other side of the stage you can punish people lagging just because that move exists. He would otherwise not have an option which the opponent is forced to respect, making the neutral game between them less one sided, and hence an over all better match up.

Unfortunately for MK, Luma can take the speed drill hits for Rosalina (each individual hitbox on the move can be cancelled like a projectile), making it less restrictive than say Marth's Dash Assault (neutral b replacement) which allows Marth to do the same thing with the same speed, but slices right through Luma and challenges rosalina with transcended priority.

In Marth's case, without dash assault, Rosalina would be a very complicated match up, with her neutral being excessively better than Marth's default, and her play style revolving around just running away and keeping him out, he is forced to approach her. With Dash Assault I genuinely ignore Luma and get a free hit/approach/advantageous position on her every time she uses a move that's within 1/3rd of FD of me (because her frame data by herself is not safe). Because of this she's forced to respect how quickly I can capitalise on her and cannot afford to whiff attacks on me. A huge match up changer.

 

[DanGR]

I'm in the camp of Rosalina players that think her custom moves will heavily impact her matchups. I think it's pretty clear that she can make better use of her custom moves than her regular specials. Let's take a look.

Side-B: She gets a solid projectile that forces several characters to approach her.

Down-B: She can swap out her projectile absorption + hitbox-on-item downb for one that blocks attacks in a similar way to how link's shield blocks some things, but it throws out a huge hitbox as well. When Rosalina turns around, it functions as a move that safely brings items (bananas, bombs, etc) within grabbing distance for use. This is her go-to against everyone without a projectile, and will still see use against many characters with moderate projectile use.

Up-B: She can add a hitbox to her recovery in exchange for reducing her recovery distance. The regular up-b distance is overkill in a lot of matchups, but still useful for recovering over the stage against slower characters.

Neutral-B: Rosa has a custom neutral-b that teleports Luma instantaneously a set distance away instead of being launched via neutral-B, whose hitbox was situational at best anyways. This will increase her edgeguard potential, act as a gateway into kill moves, and enable quicker desynched RosaLuma play in general.

Conclusion: Overall, with custom moves she acquires an effective camping game, a quick shield that blocks both projectiles and regular attacks, quicker desynch play leading to kill setups and edgeguarding, and the option to add a hitbox to her recovery. Am I missing something?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't get the randomness argument for them not being allowed, unlike equipment you know exactly what they are capable of and what has changed. it's just 4 different moves on each special, just learn how they work and tinker with your own.

 

[Starbound]

Rosalina players aren't using her custom moves? O.o

I find that really surprising considering how incredible of a tool Luma Warp in virtually every situation when compared to Luma Shot (which in my opinion is really mediocre and my least favorite aspect about this character in For Glory mode) and Power Luma shot (which is garbage). Shooting Star Bit adds another useful tool to her defensive game as it basically gives her a laser that she can shoot out anywhere on the stage (vanilla Star Bit is really meh).

That being said, I do think Rosalina does benefit the least from customs. Not so much that her customs are useless compared to her regular options, but because so many characters are given ways to get through her defense (piercing projectiles).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

For the most part, Rosalina's all agree that she doesn't seem to get much out of custom moves.
This means for the rest of the cast, they're usually improving their match ups with her with customs, while Rosalina has no such options.

I really want to know where you heard this, because the consensus on the Rosalina subforum is that the majority of her customs have at least situational use and in a few cases boil down to personal preference. For starters, Gravitational Pull is flat out useless against characters without projectiles, making Catch & Release or Guardian Luma pure upgrades in 10 or so matchups.

Luma Warp lacks the kill power of Luma Shot but the end lag is basically zero and it can combo into fsmash or other moves at around 100% or so. Even with Luma attached to Rosalina, it's simple to warp it out for a quick hit and recall it right after. Power Luma Shot...I'll admit I haven't experimented with much since it's not to my taste but I can see the benefit of a powerful lingering hitbox like that. (I think it's comparable to Samus's Dense Charge Shot, actually.)

Shooting Star Bit is basically Falco's old laser in terms of range and damage, while Floaty Star Bit is a long lasting projectile that just takes up space. Both are generally superior to the standard Star Bits, which was only really good at letting Luma hit something a bit out of range.

Up special customs are down to personal taste, although I generally prefer the standard version.

So...yeah. Not sure where you got the idea that Rosalina doesn't benefit from her customs.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Won't characters most likely get standard sets that are used once people have experimented around with them? I'm willing to bet that not a single character will consider using all 12 moves competitively much less every character. The only difference I can see is that some customs may be used in certain match ups as opposed to others. I.E. Villager using his "Garden" special when against characters without items or pocketable moves, while using the regular one for the rest.

It'll be similar to pokemon where there is generally a standard set, and a couple variants. There will certainly be some unused customs.
eg. Don't see much value in Stock Kirbys inhale, Jumping inhale is better, ice breathe will have its flavor. You'll probably see both. Assuming Kirby gets a decent amount of play.

 

[DeLux]

I haven't followed much, but is there a reason we aren't just double blinding our custom moves to circumvent the "accidental choosing" issue?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Double blind would be best as I see it.

 

[DanGR]

That being said, I do think Rosalina does benefit the least from customs. Not so much that her customs are useless compared to her regular options, but because so many characters are given ways to get through her defense (piercing projectiles).

I can't comment on how much better/worse her customs are than everyone else's because I haven't unlocked them all yet, but at the very least going from having virtually no projectile game to having an excellent one makes a massive difference for any character.

 

[Shaya]

I could've worded that better, but let me emphasise "doesn't get much", as in it doesn't vastly improve her prospects. At the same time I was discussing how MK and Marth with custom moves actually suddenly gain a lot of footing/pressure against a lot of characters "they get a lot more".

 

[Emblem Lord]

Basically rosa is top tier. Mk and marth are mid at best and lose to top tiers. But with customs now they dont get wrecked by those top characters.

 

[popsofctown]

Shaya, I think what you're picking up on is not that Rosalina has a weak set of customs compared to other characters, but more that high power characters like Rosalina tend to benefit from added versatility less. I think custom specials squeeze the tier list inward because they allow you to handpick solutions to problems. Beating Rosalina is more of a "problem" because she has a lot of power in a vacuum (which is furthermore tied to a unique mechanic which makes it extra-interactive with changes in the custom special of her opponent). She's not really the one digging for solutions.
Rosalina actually has really good custom specials.

I haven't followed much, but is there a reason we aren't just double blinding our custom moves to circumvent the "accidental choosing" issue?

Because we want to practice for the premium shebang, the Wii U version, at which point it will be logistically difficult to double blind custom move selections.

A couple people also don't like surprise factor, but the above should be the primary reason not to double blind.

BTW, with customs enabled, the random button's functionality changes to randomly equipped randomly configured character. Ergo, random button needs to get banned wherever equipment is banned, I think. TOs should keep it in mind. Random button was just a way of disrespecting your opponent anyway.

 

[Batousai]

(Forgive me if this seems poorly timed, my separate thread was merged with this one.)

Let me start off by killing a couple of arguments before anyone can try to discredit me.

I was 8 years old when Super Smash Bros first came out on N64, in 1999, and have been playing the games ever since then. As a veteran, I've seen the game change, an evolve, as well as watched the community change. Yes, I played Melee. In fact, I played it to death as a kid. I also understand well, how meta-games develop and work.

That said, its my logical observation and conclusion that custom specials in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS SHOULD, in fact, be allowed in national competitive play.

In Melee, the meta-game rapidly grew to the point that now dedicated players have memorized matchups and can predict, with a fair amount of accuracy, what an opponent will do just by what character they have selected. Yes competitive Melee is highly popular and isn't going anywhere for a long time. It is still growing, albeit much more slowly than its golden years. However, Melee is showing its years, being 2 generations old, and competitive play can, at times, be completely predictable and lacking in the variety and intrigue it had at first.

The newest entry in the beloved franchise has introduced the ability to customize any given character's specials, or "B" button commands.

Many people, purists and otherwise, have spoken badly about this. Some argue that it threatens competitive balance, or that it takes away the ability to predict and counter-strategize. I have just 3 points to make that show that custom specials could very well be the best thing for Super Smash Bros for Wii U/3DS competitive play.

1. It Opens Up the Meta-game.

Allowing players to customize means one can create play-styles and strategies unique to themselves. This allows for more variety in the meta-game.

This variety does not threaten the balance of the game.

For example: Each character only has 3 choices for their Up-special: the balanced default, one that improves recovery but sacrifices attack application, one that improves attack application but sacrifices recovery.

Unlike custom equipment, which alters a character's stats and adds bonus (sometimes game-breaking) effects, the circle of increase and sacrifice in using custom specials keeps things balanced. One can't create an unbeatable, balance breaking loadout, because every improved area of performance creates an equal opposite area of lacking performance.

2. It Will Prevent Centralization.

By encouraging variety and self expression through customized special moves, the meta-game would not become centralized. No one character will be so much better than all others, i.e. Fox in Melee or Meta Knight in Brawl., because the freedom of play-styles would prevent one character from walling another out.

3. It Will Encourage Growth in the Competitive Scene.

As I said earlier, custom specials will decrease the ability to accurately predict how a player will fight according to the character they select. Some say this is a bad thing, but it actually is not. By removing predictability, players will be forced to stay alert and learn to adapt, react to their opponent, and re-strategize in the middle of a fight. This will make players improve in skill and will prevent anyone from underestimating their opponent. This will keep every match fresh and interesting, both for the competitors and the audience.

All in all, the legalization of custom specials in competitive play would help the competitive community to stay alive as long, if not longer, than Melee. This one feature will raise the skill ceiling of the game without raising the skill wall. As such, new contenders will be able to enter more easily than in the Melee scene, but the truly skilled players will still be able to play at a discernibly higher level.

Variety, skill, balance, community, and longevity. These are what competitive play is all about, and all of these will be improved with the inclusion of custom specials in competivie Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS.



I welcome logical opinions and open-minded discussion on the matter. Tell me what you think. Do you agree? Do you disagree? Why?
Share it here, but please keep it MATURE, CIVILIZED, and above all LOGICAL.

 

[SaiPrime]

I have one observation. Not every character's up special options are specifically either default, more recovery less damage, or more damage less recovery. Robin's options for Elwind are either default, more vertical recovery less horizontal, or more horizontal recovery less vertical. Still though, in one way or another, every custom special has a give-and-take, and I agree that custom specials - and only specials, not equipment - would be good for the Smash WiiU/3DS competitive scene. It can be very annoying when you find that there's that one character that no matter how hard you try, you can't beat them, simply because of character matchup. Custom moves would allow you to be able to prepare more for the character that walls you out. Of course, your opponent would also have the chance to customize themselves. Thus, it would add another level of strategy to the game. But even if you have specials that counter your opponent's character and/or playstyle, it would by no means be even close to being a "win button". A player's skills, I believe, would still be the deciding factor above all else.

All things considered, my end statement is that I agree fully with Batousai.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

Custom Specials have no place in 3DS tournaments.

Requiring entrants to have grounded for hours to get the custom specials that they want isn't healthy. It makes it more difficult for people to join the scene.

On the wiiu version however, it's the equivalent of unlocking falco. Everyone's playing on the same console.

Ultimately, it's up to the TO's.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Custom Specials have no place in 3DS tournaments.

Requiring entrants to have grounded for hours to get the custom specials that they want isn't healthy. It makes it more difficult for people to join the scene.

On the wiiu version however, it's the equivalent of unlocking falco. Everyone's playing on the same console.

Ultimately, it's up to the TO's.

Wot?
Any special you want for a character can be obtained by running classic with that character.
Its bloody easy to get all a characters specials if you want "THAT" characters specials.
Considering Smash bros often operates with the idea of a main and a secondary.
Having what you need for a tournament isn't even remotely difficult.

 

[Thinkaman]

The entire obtainment topic becomes trivial in the future, where sets can be easily shared and set between any systems.

 

[Batousai]

Naturally, the decision falls on the TOs. But, I must observe that the two above me make practically inarguable points. After all, what competitive game DIDN'T require that contenders spend their own time on the game in order to stay relevant? During that time, customs WILL be unlocked. Besides, it's only 6 custom specials for any given character, and you'll have all the options, and most only use a handful of characters. Not hard at all.

 

[GroundZero996]

Have any TOs actively banned custom moves yet? I'm pretty sure they haven't, and unless something is grossly OP I doubt they will ban all customs.

Custom Specials have no place in 3DS tournaments.

Requiring entrants to have grounded for hours to get the custom specials that they want isn't healthy. It makes it more difficult for people to join the scene.

On the wiiu version however, it's the equivalent of unlocking falco. Everyone's playing on the same console.

Ultimately, it's up to the TO's.

Meh, Powersaves? I don't know what SmashBoard's policies are on that, but since it's not cheating, only an easier method of unlocking, I doubt it would be problematic.

Hell Smogon doesn't even care if you use Powersaves to clone Pokemon and Items, and they can be super uptight.

 

[Maître Luigi]

Custom moves could bring variety or imbalance to the game, but for the sake of logistics they are impractical to allow in offline tournaments. That is to say the host is providing the games to load from, otherwise this doesn't matter. It's time consuming to unlock all moves for every character for each game let alone unlocking characters.

 

[popsofctown]

The entire obtainment topic becomes trivial in the future, where sets can be easily shared and set between any systems.

Will it be possible to take my full unlock ds to every setup at a tournament and make everything available to everyone?

 

[Conda]

We do not need another thread about this.

 

[Maître Luigi]

Regardless of whether custom moves should allowed or not, combos and viability using said moves should be further tested.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I want to merge this thread with the existing custom specials thread but I apparently do not have that ability at this time.

I'll let Shaya know though.

 

[IsmaR]

I'm training to be a Shaya one day, so I handled it.

In the future, please conduct proper research to see if a thread already covering your topic exists.

Search button or even skimming the threads on the first page are usually enough.

 

[Kel]

I haven't followed much, but is there a reason we aren't just double blinding our custom moves to circumvent the "accidental choosing" issue?

Not knowing your opponents moves is not good for tournaments. Entire sets can be decided on low percent gimps and surprises from just not knowing your opponents options.

Here's another example on top of my previous posts: Bowser has a Down B that slams people into the ground at a much wider range. The way to beat this move is to shield it and punish. This is the exact opposite way to punish bowser's other down Bs. If you shield the others it breaks your shield. You could die at 40% (or even 0% if you are near an edge when you shield) for thinking your opponent is using one move when he's using another.

This takes away mindgames, option reading, and overall competitiveness of the game in favor of surprise and luck. These are things we need to try to eliminate from competitive play.

 

[Batousai]

Not knowing your opponents moves is not good for tournaments. Entire sets can be decided on low percent gimps and surprises from just not knowing your opponents options.

Here's another example on top of my previous posts: Bowser has a Down B that slams people into the ground at a much wider range. The way to beat this move is to shield it and punish. This is the exact opposite way to punish bowser's other down Bs. If you shield the others it breaks your shield. You could die at 40% (or even 0% if you are near an edge when you shield) for thinking your opponent is using one move when he's using another.

This takes away mindgames, option reading, and overall competitiveness of the game in favor of surprise and luck. These are things we need to try to eliminate from competitive play.

Not every competitive game requires that you know everything that your opponent has. In a card game you're not allowed to look at your opponent's deck/hand. In chess you don't broadcast your thoughts to your foe. In poker you're encouraged to keep your hand secret and even bluff. In football you don't announce your plays to the opposing team. I could keep going. The fact is, the element of surprise is an important part of the very concept of strategy.

On that same principle, over-predictability doesn't automatically equal competitive value. If you automatically know what ever Fox player will do, you'll always fight a certain way. That lack of variety causes centralization, which kills competitive games. In some ways, having surprises keeps you on your toes. It adds to the mind games because you want to draw out your opponent's arsenal and act accordingly. It's not random, because a skilled player should be able to learn from past experiences and adapt on the fly. Variety keeps games alive longer, and custom specials multiplies the base variety by 3.

Also, competitive Melee seems to be all about low percentage kills with ledge hogging. From an unbiased perspective, is that any better?

 

[HiNiTe]

Yes, unlocking custom moves is annoying but as said above if you want custom moves for a certain character you can do a few runs in Classic to get them, and it's incredibly easy with the buffer-home screen trick. Now that we know the Wii U allows transferring, custom moves can still be legal as they have; it would just be up to the player's responsibility to bring their 3DS and have their custom moves ready.

 

[SaiPrime]

@ Kel - I think neither person knowing the other's specials to start off with would actually add a layer of strategy.

For example, in Pokemon, sometimes a player will hold off from using a certain move to be able to surprise their opponent with it and take the lead, but that goes both ways too. Both players would have to keep on their goes, possibly try to predict their foe's surprise and gain an advantage.

And like Pokemon, as the game goes on, some commn setups would emerge and you could take measures to prepare for them. Rather than eliminating mind games, that sounds more like it adds mind games to me.

 

[Kel]

You guys are starting from a line of thinking that is before accepting the generally accepted law that we need to reduce variance in a competitive fighting game.

It's the reason we get rid of items.

It's the reason we ban stages with unpredictable outcomes.

It's why people hated tripping.

Smash is at its best when the better player wins based on strategy, reads, set ups, mind games, zoning, etc. We attempt to reduce variance by cutting out luck factors as much as possible. Bowser having a 2/3 shot on taking your stock because you don't know which move he uses is not good for the game. What you are talking about isn't variety, it's luck. Keeping customs legal is adding variety. Making it so that your move set is a secret to your opponent is forcing them to commit to make blind guesses.

I'd like to point out that your examples are not the best analogies.

In football this would be equivalent to 1/3 of the time the ball is intercepted, the offense gets to keep the ball at the spot of the interception. It's adding variety to the game afterall!

Poker is gambling. There is tons of luck involved. This is the reason billionaires will sit with the best pros in the world at poker. Luck is better than skill and anyone can win on any given day. The Moneymaker Effect stemmed from this and is why poker was big (before Black Friday).

In Pokemon critical hits can change entire matches. Who likes critical hits more? Seasoned Pokemon pros, or noobs who otherwise have no shot at beating said pro?

Variance hurts better players and gives a boost to lesser skilled players. The competitive scene in Smash is all about favoring skill over luck. Keeping move sets secret encourages luck over skill. This needs to be avoided.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't think "luck" is the right word, but I agree with you Kel; secret moves promote different skill tests that Smash (and fighting games in general) excel at.

Long-term bluffing and information management are not well exhibited in fighting game.

This is all moot anyway; it's difficult, nearly impossible, to not have full transparency on WiiU local games.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

"Making it so that your move set is a secret to your opponent is forcing them to commit to make blind guesses."

You can already request a double blind pick character wise. Doesn't blind customs kinda fall under the same thing?

 

[Thinkaman]

You can already request a double blind pick character wise. Doesn't blind customs kinda fall under the same thing?

No, because you immediately both know what the results of blind pick before the match starts.

Also, it is unavoidable.

 

[Kel]

Double blind is for choosing characters and characters alone.

The withholding of move set information is a new phenomena to smash bros entirely. The point of me posting has been to bring this new phenomena to light so that the community can create appropriate rules and have answers for the murky rulings that are surely going to happen eventually. It's easier for tos to make decisions when they know the reasoning behind each decision.

 

[Signia]

Someone who is pretty influential basically declared customs to be legal:

http://youtu.be/XXgMEw7tedk?t=23m23s

 

[DanGR]

He provided literally zero reasons for his position in that video.

 

[Signia]

He provided literally zero reasons for his position in that video.

Doesn't matter, it's D1

Anyway, with the 3DS loading, a TO could possibly only need to unlock all customs only once, and load them onto to each system, removing the only reason to ban customs.

 

[MajorMajora]

Guys, if we just establish what customs each character is using pre-match, then there doesn't have to be any worry. We have mouths, you know.

And now, the game pad has a MICROPHONE!

 

[FSLink]

Doesn't matter, it's D1

Anyway, with the 3DS loading, a TO could possibly only need to unlock all customs only once, and load them onto to each system, removing the only reason to ban customs.

Right now from the direct it's looking like only transferring custom characters, not transferring all custom moves. Hopefully that's not the case, since either a legitimate save or one made with Powersaves 3DS (makes it so you can easily cheat in all custom moves on the 3DS) would be great for TOs.

 

[Captain Norris]

how is everyone planning custom moves to be used? Will they be able tot change the moves? To me, the logical explanation would be to have a set move set per tourney. It would at least be the easiest thing to do.
This is, of course, thinking that custom moves are legal.