Custom Moveset Discussion

[popsofctown]

If enforceability was costless, I'd be all for banning miis that aren't max height, medium height, or minimum height, max weight, medium weight, or minimum weight. But it's not, it's actually pretty expensive, it'd be pretty difficult to verify mii sizes unless you go all the way to banning nondefault miis.

It's probably best to assume that people will pick min height, min weight miis anyway and let everyone learn their %s and strings based on that defacto standard. Altering your stats slightly just to throw people off probably disadvantages you too much due to actually weakening your character, so it won't be an issue.
That's the thing, I think you're forgetting that viability is part of the equation. Knowing at what % a vertical KO move takes out Link in Brawl isn't a skill that gets tested because no one plays Link, in the first place, players who top 8 nationals could very well be ignorant of when their main's upsmash kills Link but that doesn't disadvantage them at all. In the same way it's going to be fine if you don't know when your upsmash kills 1/4th slider width mii because it's crappy and suboptimal and won't show up to brackets.

 

[Shaya]

I think all the costumes/helmets would still be available and don't alter stats or whatever, which is a positive at least to the whole "personality" point to Miis.

META KNIGHT MASK, DRACULA CAPE, LAWYER SUIT.
yoyo.

 

[popsofctown]

An analogy I think is pretty valid is pokemon, where top competitive players often will give a pokemon a specific amount of SpAttack EVs so it can just barely OHKO a blissey with a certain move. Theoretically, gameplay could become less technical and knowledge-based if some Blisseys started putting just a few EVs in spdefense to throw those people off. In practice, the Blissey owners don't do that, because putting spdefense EVs on your Blissey makes it too #%*#y in general for that to be worthwhile. So those exact calculations DO end up being meaningful even in the presence of such fluid customization options.

EDIT: I can't even actually pokemon

 

[RWB]

An analogy I think is pretty valid is pokemon, where top competitive players often will give a pokemon a specific amount of Attack EVs so it can just barely OHKO a blissey with a certain move. Theoretically, gameplay could become less technical and knowledge-based if some Blisseys started putting just a few EVs in defense to throw those people off. In practice, the Blissey owners don't do that, because putting defense EVs on your Blissey makes it too #%*#y in general for that to be worthwhile. So those exact calculations DO end up being meaningful even in the presence of such fluid customization options.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/blissey

All Standard Blissey has full Defense EVs, and people account for that. You are very unlikely to OHKO a Blissey without Fighting STAB- Heck, without a life orb, Machamp using Superpower does only 109% against Blissey.

 

[popsofctown]

Yeah i got it backwards, I forgot how stuff is built, but you know what I was driving at right? Maybe you could provide a substitute example, I didn't play enough pokemon to get a great one offhand.
My point is that there tends to be lots of consistency in the way things are specc'ed, the fact that they are consistently spec'ed a way different than I remember doesn't undermine that.

 

[RWB]

Yeah, I understand- a lot of people use nonstandard pokemon to throw of their opponents game.


My nitpick wasn't even helpful.

My obnoxious side was apparently in full force. Sorry.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

So this is how the process of transferring customs works; and as I thought, it works with any 3DS.

 

[Dragoomba]

Lol, and people still want to hold up tournaments to go through this process with every player on every WiiU they play on. People also expect every player to carry their 3DS' everywhere for this.

Also, you can't edit the custom fighters nor does this unlock any custom moves on the WiiU version.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Lol, and people still want to hold up tournaments to go through this process with every player on every WiiU they play on. People also expect every player to carry their 3DS' everywhere for this.

Also, you can't edit the custom fighters nor does this unlock any custom moves on the WiiU version.

My god. Any 3DS!

Just ask someone with all customs to lend theirs. There are multiple slots for this. Good god; we've been through this. I even posted that video to show that it works on any 3DS.

 

[Thinkaman]

So in the rare event that you have a WiiU without everything unlocked...

And your preferred moveset happens to included a move that isn't unlocked...

And you nor anyone else who has played on this Wii has transferred this set before...

Then it takes 30 seconds with a random 3DS to solve the problem forever.



In a few minutes, I or anyone else with a 3DS could transfer virtually every competitively-relevant set to any WiiU, solving that setup forever.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I mean, it's possible that someone somewhere will come up with a clever new moveset that's decidedly nonstandard, but that's probably far enough in the future that we can reasonably expect people to actually have all the moves.

Hell I got all of them on the 3DS in under a month and I didn't even strain myself to do it. I can't imagine the Wii U version will make it harder.

 

[Shaya]

The question that video doesn't answer is whether transferring a custom fighter properly unlocks those custom specials; can they go into the custom fighter menu and then make a new set/edit that set as they so please?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The question that video doesn't answer is whether transferring a custom fighter properly unlocks those custom specials; can they go into the custom fighter menu and then make a new set/edit that set as they so please?

Word on the internet is no, it just copies the profile to use. You can't edit it further, although you can delete it. You'll have to unlock the moves properly for both versions if you have them.

 

[Shaya]

Basically meaning TOs need access to multiple 3DS' with nearly everything unlocked for setting up / the onus is on the player to have their set on a 3DS/otherwise available.
At least for early stages of the game where I suppose we don't know optimal loads for characters.

 

[Shog]

So in the rare event that you have a WiiU without everything unlocked...

And your preferred moveset happens to included a move that isn't unlocked...

And you nor anyone else who has played on this Wii has transferred this set before...

Then it takes 30 seconds with a random 3DS to solve the problem forever.



In a few minutes, I or anyone else with a 3DS could transfer virtually every competitively-relevant set to any WiiU, solving that setup forever.

You got it!
FreeDragonRush is going to happen, hooray!

Just to make this clear: Making them non editable is actually even better, because if you think about it: NO cheating possible! The TO's could even name the sets "1212" to show which move will be used, removing another factor of suprises for the people who don't like.
Combine that with the fact that most characters have 1 staple and 1 really, really bad move, I think the most important sets can be set in stone.

 

[Djent]

EDIT: Oops, feel free to delete.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

So uhh, feel free to make Lightweight purple.

Wrong thread. http://smashboards.com/threads/sugg...r-every-character.376530/page-4#post-17931169

But sheesh. That sounds pretty rough.

 

[rpgcaster]

Uh, this makes things a little more troublesome. Am hoping that the Wii U provides easier custom unlock options...

 

[Thinkaman]

Guys, I don't have a link, but in a video a custom item bag spawned in a normal multiplayer battle.

This feature makes sense for the WiiU to have and 3DS not to have, after all. In 3DS, there are multiple systems; who gets the loot? Only the person who picks it up? (Lame.) But on the WiiU, it's all one system, all one set of unlocks. Plus, we already knew WiiU had CD drops.

Does stage builder have conveyor belts? The Yoshi sweatshop sticker-and-CD factory might return...

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Ok so I'm not sure where we're at concerning custom movesets but if it IS too difficult to pull them off because of having to unlock them all, could we have it with custom on with the 3ds version and custom off with the wii u?

It would seem to solve the problem because people could choose which metagame they like better and I really don't want the 3ds tournaments to completely die once the Wii U version comes out. This way the other version would have something unique going for it and everyone could unlock custom moves at their own pace.

The other question I had was, if you transferred 3ds fighters to the Wii U, would you HAVE to use the 3ds as a controller? If not, then people could bring their own custom movesets via the 3ds version and have just the default set for Wii U only players. The pro would be convenience, but I could definitely see a major con in someone accusing their teammates of "pay to win".

Edit: Watched the video and it seems transferring and fighter selection are in fact separate, so you can play them with the other controllers. A "bring your 3ds if you want customs" format reminds me of Pokemon Stadium almost, albeit the "rental Pokemon" aren't completely useless. But I can still see the controversy in it. What say u?

 

[SuaveChaser]

Hopefully someone finds a easy way to unlock them all on wiiu.

 

[Pazzo.]

All the more reason to bring my 3DS to tournaments...

 

[LancerStaff]

How much do customs help overall? Because Pit and Dark Pit get about nothin'.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Guys, I don't have a link, but in a video a custom item bag spawned in a normal multiplayer battle.

This feature makes sense for the WiiU to have and 3DS not to have, after all. In 3DS, there are multiple systems; who gets the loot? Only the person who picks it up? (Lame.) But on the WiiU, it's all one system, all one set of unlocks. Plus, we already knew WiiU had CD drops.

Does stage builder have conveyor belts? The Yoshi sweatshop sticker-and-CD factory might return...

I think I know the video you're talking about. Kalos Pokemon League vs. Toon Link CPU?

Odds are the stage builder will have conveyor belts again only because it would be a bit odd to remove such a feature that existed before. But it is Nintendo and Sakurai so...yeah.

How much do customs help overall? Because Pit and Dark Pit get about nothin'.

Quite a lot. Most if not all characters have at least one custom move that's generally superior to the default for that slot, and quite a few have meaningful options that will depend on matchup or personal taste.

 

[LancerStaff]

Quite a lot. Most if not all characters have at least one custom move that's generally superior to the default for that slot, and quite a few have meaningful options that will depend on matchup or personal taste.

But if everybody gets a minor improvement, then it amounts to nothing. I guess I ment to ask how many character are significantly helped by customs.

 

[Thinkaman]

But if everybody gets a minor improvement, then it amounts to nothing. I guess I ment to ask how many character are significantly helped by customs.

Here's my subjective list. (Keep in mind that this looks at the entire ecosystem--everyone improves nominally, but a character who gets less that other characters becomes "worse".) As an obvious disclaimer, this is super opinionated, unscientific, and only reflects 1 month with the 3DS version.

Way Way Better: (best improvement of options)


Way Better: (superior improvement of options)


Better: (better than average improvement of options)


About the Same, but Less Polarized: (average improvement of options, but specific benefit in worst matchups)


About the Same: (average improvement of options)


A Little Worse: (less beneficial improvement of options)


Worse: (little to no improvement of options)


Worst:

Rosalina is a weird case. Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp are actually really good nominal improvements to her moves. However, because of her unique matchup style, tons of other characters who struggle with Rosalina improve their matchup with her by taking specific customs that focus on terminating Luma. Thus as a whole, Rosalina's average matchup ratio drops more than anyone else when customs are enabled.


As a last reminder, a skilled or clever player can find value and importance in most options. This is not a commentary on how good or useful anyone's custom moves are in isolation, but just a rough guess at how customs affect their matchup ratios.


As for Pit specifically, his down-b options are definitely superior to his default, and Guiding Bow is great. It doesn't help Dark Pit as much though, for obvious reasons.

Edit:
Did some re-balancing.

 

[warriorman222]

Here's my subjective list. (Keep in mind that this looks at the entire ecosystem--everyone improves nominally, but a character who gets less that other characters becomes "worse".) As an obvious disclaimer, this is super opinionated, unscientific, and only reflects 1 month with the 3DS version.

Way Way Better: (best improvement of options)


Way Better: (superior improvement of options)


Better: (better than average improvement of options)


About the Same, but Less Polarized: (average improvement of options, but specific benefit in worst matchups)


About the Same: (average improvement of options)


A Little Worse: (less beneficial improvement of options)


Worse: (little to no improvement of options)


Worst:

Rosalina is a weird case. Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp are actually really good nominal improvements to her moves. However, because of her unique matchup style, tons of other characters who struggle with Rosalina improve their matchup with her by taking specific customs that focus on terminating Luma. Thus as a whole, Rosalina's average matchup ratio drops more than anyone else when customs are enabled.


As a last reminder, a skilled or clever player can find value and importance in most options. This is not a commentary on how good or useful anyone's custom moves are in isolation, but just a rough guess at how customs affect their matchup ratios.


As for Pit specifically, his down-b options are definitely superior to his default, and Guiding Bow is great. It doesn't help Dark Pit as much though, for obvious reasons.

I agree with this, except you forgot Paluetena, and when you put her there you pute her at lowest Way Way better. Reflect barrier pls no, Super Speed is almost broken, and Light weight is while her Counter sucks.

 

[popsofctown]

Guys, I don't have a link, but in a video a custom item bag spawned in a normal multiplayer battle.

This feature makes sense for the WiiU to have and 3DS not to have, after all. In 3DS, there are multiple systems; who gets the loot? Only the person who picks it up? (Lame.) But on the WiiU, it's all one system, all one set of unlocks. Plus, we already knew WiiU had CD drops.

Does stage builder have conveyor belts? The Yoshi sweatshop sticker-and-CD factory might return...

Custom item bags spawn in smash mode on 3DS. I was fighting the CPU with Mr. Saturn fan on to test whether Spinphony would do damage to a shieldbroken opponent without cancelling shieldbreak daze and I got like 2 custom item bags. It didn't tell me what was in them though, or whether I got anything for the one the CPU picked up..

Mew also drops multiple custom item bags, if there's a way to screw up the pokeball RNG that'd be nice.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Something I thought for certain people to unlock customs; if Amiibo's can unlock customs just by playing, then maybe a TO could get an Amiibo and set a match between it on 99 stock or something. Of course, the weakness of this plan is the requirement for someone to have the bloody things.

 

[Shaya]

Thinkaman: I kinda disagree on Marth/Lucina
Dash Assault is a tool which Mars hasn't had access to before, or anything similar , its a great long range follow up action (that legitimately combos) and plays out much like you would want to use Falco's side b for (assuming opponent knows how to deal with Falco's side b in Brawl properly).

Iai/Rush Counter reverses the direction they get hit, comes out the fastest of the three, and actually does more damage (1.4x to 1.2). Counter's most reliable usage is as an anti-gimping/edge guarding tool, and Iai accentuates this heavily, try and hit Marth with that fair off stage? Likely die at 50% to the reversal (not joking); it pushes him forward on activation as well, which can have its perks.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dashing assault turns neutral b from a situational poke that requires yomi and conditioning to use effectively, into a move that can be used more liberally to transition an offensive play into a trap situation with consistent results.

Marth and Lucina getting an option that actually ties their gameplan together is huge.

 

[Thinkaman]

I agree with this, except you forgot Paluetena, and when you put her there you pute her at lowest Way Way better. Reflect barrier pls no, Super Speed is almost broken, and Light weight is while her Counter sucks.

Wait, I could have shown I put her there. Did it get backspaced? Good catch!

Thinkaman: I kinda disagree on Marth/Lucina
Dash Assault is a tool which Mars hasn't had access to before, or anything similar , its a great long range follow up action (that legitimately combos) and plays out much like you would want to use Falco's side b for (assuming opponent knows how to deal with Falco's side b in Brawl properly).

Iai/Rush Counter reverses the direction they get hit, comes out the fastest of the three, and actually does more damage (1.4x to 1.2). Counter's most reliable usage is as an anti-gimping/edge guarding tool, and Iai accentuates this heavily, try and hit Marth with that fair off stage? Likely die at 50% to the reversal (not joking); it pushes him forward on activation as well, which can have its perks.

I can buy this.

I made a few changes to my list.

 

[AccountsDept]

Alrighty -

As a Middle-Level player at Brawl and at Sm4sh too, probably, i'll just put my two cents on all the arguments being thrown out in favor or against custom moves.
1. Grinding

Grinding isn't that much of an issue. One of the main features of buying the 3DS version first is being able to get the grand majority of all the customs you want so you can then transfer them to the Wii U version later (which is what all the Tourneys will be played on). Unlike equipment, which i am in full opposition to in competitive play, Smash Run and Classic almost always net you a fair few moves for the character you were using, or at least ANOTHER character in the roster. Even with people in Smash 4 having more mains than they would normally in Brawl and Melee, acquiring the moves is a non-issue.

2. Variety

If you're a Sm4sh backroom member, making the tiers will be a living hell for you if customs are legalized. But that's almost a good thing.

Most customs, on average, have a few principles for each special -

Recovery Option 1 is Balanced/Normal
Recovery Option 2 sacrifices attack/combat ability for a better recovery factor
Recovery Option 3 sacrifices the recovery factor for better attack/combat application

Counters (usually down-special) have the options of the normal counter, a stronger but slower counter, or a weaker but faster counter.

Reflectors tend to follow the same principle, but they have some other variances in properties as well.

Non-Banked Projectiles (a term i just made up, probably a technical one but i don't know it - any projectile that cannot be charged and held for charging later/fire, i.e: not lucario's aura sphere or samus's neutral special) follow a stronger/slower, weaker/faster system as well.

I point this all out to say that there is still a bit of predictability within moves, so the lack of knowledge isn't a problem either.

But there are still some specials that don't follow that formula - and that's okay.

I can't remember who said it first, but Smash is a game about adaption, and having this many variables with your opponent before a match starts will certainly test your ability to adapt.

3. Over-Powered Moves?

If they are so egregiously, ridiculously over-powered that they completely destroy the dynamic of the match, ban that move like you would anything else.

4. Unique-ness

Sm4sh is a game on it's own, but calling it Brawl 2.0 isn't far from the truth. AND THAT'S NOT A BAD THING - HOWEVER, the addition of custom moves in this installment would certainly be able to seperate Sm4sh from both Brawl and Melee and give it an identity of it's own. I think that's my favorite thing about the legality of customs, it'd spice up the meta and shake the way we think about things so much, but they're still grounded in competive utility enough to be fair. Just because they're different from what we're used to, doesn't mean we should throw them out. I see this happen with a lot of new additions, both in brawl and sm4sh, and it's sorta preventing us from evolving. Let's not.

 

[warriorman222]

Alrighty -

As a Middle-Level player at Brawl and at Sm4sh too, probably, i'll just put my two cents on all the arguments being thrown out in favor or against custom moves.
1. Grinding

Grinding isn't that much of an issue. One of the main features of buying the 3DS version first is being able to get the grand majority of all the customs you want so you can then transfer them to the Wii U version later (which is what all the Tourneys will be played on). Unlike equipment, which i am in full opposition to in competitive play, Smash Run and Classic almost always net you a fair few moves for the character you were using, or at least ANOTHER character in the roster. Even with people in Smash 4 having more mains than they would normally in Brawl and Melee, acquiring the moves is a non-issue.

2. Variety

If you're a Sm4sh backroom member, making the tiers will be a living hell for you if customs are legalized. But that's almost a good thing.

Most customs, on average, have a few principles for each special -

Recovery Option 1 is Balanced/Normal
Recovery Option 2 sacrifices attack/combat ability for a better recovery factor
Recovery Option 3 sacrifices the recovery factor for better attack/combat application

Counters (usually down-special) have the options of the normal counter, a stronger but slower counter, or a weaker but faster counter.

Reflectors tend to follow the same principle, but they have some other variances in properties as well.

Non-Banked Projectiles (a term i just made up, probably a technical one but i don't know it - any projectile that cannot be charged and held for charging later/fire, i.e: not lucario's aura sphere or samus's neutral special) follow a stronger/slower, weaker/faster system as well.

I point this all out to say that there is still a bit of predictability within moves, so the lack of knowledge isn't a problem either.

But there are still some specials that don't follow that formula - and that's okay.

I can't remember who said it first, but Smash is a game about adaption, and having this many variables with your opponent before a match starts will certainly test your ability to adapt.

3. Over-Powered Moves?

If they are so egregiously, ridiculously over-powered that they completely destroy the dynamic of the match, ban them like you would anything else.

4. Unique-ness

Sm4sh is a game on it's own, but calling it Brawl 2.0 isn't far from the truth. AND THAT'S NOT A BAD THING - HOWEVER, the addition of custom moves in this installment would certainly be able to seperate Sm4sh from both Brawl and Melee and give it an identity of it's own. I think that's my favorite thing about the legality of customs, it'd spice up the meta and shake the way we think about things so much, but they're still grounded in competive utility enough to be fair. Just because they're different from what we're used to, doesn't mean we should throw them out. I see this happen with a lot of new additions, both in brawl and sm4sh, and it's sorta preventing us from evolving. Let's not.

Here are counterarguments I think people will make:

1. RNG makes it possible to never get all customs, ever. I would respond by saying that that is extremely unlikely.
2. Your definition of options is wrong. I would respond by saying for the most part it isn't, for recovery the literal other examples are switching horizontal and vertical(Robin and TLink), or doubling/ halfening the uses(Sonic and Frog) for less/more recovery, and those are few and far between. As for attacks, holy crap i'lll skip this.. Counter is close but completely wrong, it is usually more range and speed and like a 0.1 lowering in ,multiplier, more frames for the multiplier going so low it DIVIDES damage.
3. But all or nothing. NO, not all or nothing. If one is broken, we don't ban the other 375 or so. That's stupid. Ridiculous. What we do is ban that one, or if an exploit makes it broken do this:
If it's relevant on it's own, ban exploit. Self explanatory.
If not, ban the exploit. There is no reason to unnecessarily ban stuff, let it die naturally.
4. But it's a different thing that is so unique and weird that i don't want to adapt and would rather abolish them! Yeah, i won't get started.

 

[popsofctown]

I don't know if it's technically true that RNG makes it possible to never get all customs ever. Score and mode difficulty do wonky stuff to the drop rate, including choosing a move to drop for you due to the fact you don't have it yet.

I think it might actually be impossible to not get a new custom move if you play a Smash Run with TAS skill. Just a conjecture.

 

[Thinkaman]

While I agree with the attitudes behind "all or nothing" regarding custom legality, I don't think it's strictly true to talk about it in that way.

At face value, it's wrong. If there's a special move that say allows circle camping in most matchups--a tactic that cannot be banned because it is not discrete and cannot be well-defined--we can rightfully ban that move for a clear, explicit, unambiguous criteria.

Note that this is true for defaults just as much as options 2 or 3.


Additionally, this hypothetical looks increasingly irrelevant. All the customs have been well-tested, and nothing seems broken except maybe default Oil Panic in teams (with team attack).

Barring some crazy glitch, customs seem fine. The most powerful custom options imo are:

• Hammer Spin Dash
• Timber Counter
• Super Speed
• Thunder+
• Wizard's Dropkick
• Kong Cyclone
• Jumbo Hoop

None of these are remotely ban-worthy. It doesn't hurt that none of them are on suspected-top-characters either, except Hammer Spin Dash which merely replaces an already amazing move. (As good as it is, it's not a huge upgrade for Sonic...)


But yes, you are absolutely correct that it is a terrible idea to start randomly banning moves, default or custom, in some sort of wacky amateur attempt to rebalance the game. Everything should be legal. Competitors fairly expect and demand to be able to play the full game, and not anyone's homebrew arbitrary restrictions.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Hell I got all of them on the 3DS in under a month and I didn't even strain myself to do it. I can't imagine the Wii U version will make it harder.

IMO you can get all custom moves in like 2-3 days if you really focus on it and you can beat classic 9.0 with every character

Even if you can't it really shouldn't take over a week if you do it right.

 

[AccountsDept]

Here are counterarguments I think people will make:

1. RNG makes it possible to never get all customs, ever. I would respond by saying that that is extremely unlikely.
2. Your definition of options is wrong. I would respond by saying for the most part it isn't, for recovery the literal other examples are switching horizontal and vertical(Robin and TLink), or doubling/ halfening the uses(Sonic and Frog) for less/more recovery, and those are few and far between. As for attacks, holy crap i'lll skip this.. Counter is close but completely wrong, it is usually more range and speed and like a 0.1 lowering in ,multiplier, more frames for the multiplier going so low it DIVIDES damage.
3. But all or nothing. NO, not all or nothing. If one is broken, we don't ban the other 375 or so. That's stupid. Ridiculous. What we do is ban that one, or if an exploit makes it broken do this:
If it's relevant on it's own, ban exploit. Self explanatory.
If not, ban the exploit. There is no reason to unnecessarily ban stuff, let it die naturally.
4. But it's a different thing that is so unique and weird that i don't want to adapt and would rather abolish them! Yeah, i won't get started.

I worded that weirdly - when i said "ban them like anything else", i meant the specific move, not all of them in general.
I'm still in full support of this and i really hope we don't outright reject them. The meta of Sm4sh has the potential to be so goddamn big, and a lot of that is vested in the customs.

 

[Conda]

Is there a regulation yet actually in place at tournaments regarding Miis and their size limitations? Miis have been used at tournaments but I'm not sure if the players had to stick with a certain height and weight.

I know there's been talk about it, but is it an actual rule so far?

 

[SonicZeroX]

Well so far every tournament has been for 3DS so people just use their own Miis.

The problem is when the Wii U version comes out and people need to take time to set up their Miis.