Custom Moveset Discussion

[popsofctown]

The only tournament I attended had unrestricted mii usage.

Wii U tournaments should run just fine using a DS to bring their Mii to the setup. Particularly hospitable TOs could loan one to players that don't have either a DS or a smash social life.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It had been suggested in the past that in the interests of standardization, Miis should only be allowed if based off one of the 6 "system Miis" that come natively with the Wii U (and I suppose 3DS but I haven't actually bothered to check). They can't be deleted or modified, ensuring they'll always exist and be of the same size across all setups.

The only real question is if messing with a Mii's height/weight actually causes enough of a difference for anyone to care in the long run.

 

[popsofctown]

It had been suggested in the past that in the interests of standardization, Miis should only be allowed if based off one of the 6 "system Miis" that come natively with the Wii U (and I suppose 3DS but I haven't actually bothered to check). They can't be deleted or modified, ensuring they'll always exist and be of the same size across all setups.

The only real question is if messing with a Mii's height/weight actually causes enough of a difference for anyone to care in the long run.

This is guaranteed to remove at least 1 Mii from viability, so this suggestion has the weight of a character ban. Small miis have -better- -frame- -data- than default miis, which is huge.

 

[SonicZeroX]

It had been suggested in the past that in the interests of standardization, Miis should only be allowed if based off one of the 6 "system Miis" that come natively with the Wii U (and I suppose 3DS but I haven't actually bothered to check). They can't be deleted or modified, ensuring they'll always exist and be of the same size across all setups.

The only real question is if messing with a Mii's height/weight actually causes enough of a difference for anyone to care in the long run.

It does matter a lot because size affects hitboxes and lag

Essentially small miis are Fox/Diddy-like while tall miis are Ike/Ganon-like

 

[warriorman222]

It does matter a lot because size affects hitboxes and lag

Essentially small miis are Fox/Diddy-like while tall miis are Ike/Ganon-like

Ike/Ganon lik-no. Max height and weight reaches little above Dark Pit's chin. Min height and weight reaches Max Mii's chin.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This is guaranteed to remove at least 1 Mii from viability, so this suggestion has the weight of a character ban. Small miis have -better- -frame- -data- than default miis, which is huge.

By how many frames? We need numbers to really make proper calls. Also IIRC smaller Miis also have smaller attack ranges, which probably affects the Swordfighter and Gunner more than the Brawler but still.

It does matter a lot because size affects hitboxes and lag

Essentially small miis are Fox/Diddy-like while tall miis are Ike/Ganon-like

I'm not disputing that there's a difference, but you'll forgive me for being skeptical that the difference is as drastic as Diddy/Ike.

 

[popsofctown]

It's not as drastic as Diddy Ike, but the miis are sitting on the borderline of viability so they need every inch they can get.

Gunner is probably optimal at minimum size because it's more about camping than zoning. Your moves reach fine once you convince the other guy to get real close to make you stop camping.

 

[san.]

That's unfair to Ike, who has less landing lag on fair, uair, and dair

 

[Thinkaman]

Ampharos and I came to similar conclusions that Swordfighter is probably best at max size, and the other two at min size.

I still believe the difference is pretty small though--again, in the grand scheme of things.

 

[SonicZeroX]

It makes a pretty big difference in the Brawler's case since there are some combos that only work if the Mii is tiny because of how much faster his moves are.

 

[ArticulateT]

This is @Exate 's data on the Mii height and weight differences:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mii-height-width-analysis.373891/#post-17945992

At least for the Brawler, the shorter, lighter Miis seem to have far more advantages than a Taller, heavier Mii.

 

[Quisciens]

I just lost to an Ike who is significantly worse as a player than I am. Why? He had a custom Neutral Special move that sent out a tornado, creating a VERY powerful windbox. This windbox was larger than the ledge sweetspot, meaning I didn't stand a chance against him, no matter what. Players can exploit custom moves in this way to give themselves an edge, and, while I was Little Mac, I don't believe any character(save for a few, like Pac-Man and Lucario) could've recovered from the windbox that blows you off-screen from a greater distance than you can grab the ledge.

There are also multiple instances of custom Special moves being superior to the default. For example, Mario's Fast Fireball custom Special move. Who will be hit by a normal fireball? With that in mind, the damage penalty isn't really of much importance, considering the attack is much easier to land and quicker to launch( you can fire the projectile much faster ).

Additionally, there are several custom moves designed to fool your reflexes. While I am a big fan of Little Mac's Dash Counter move, I cannot say that it is very fair. Samus shoots a missile at me, to which I respond with a counter, flinging myself at her to deliver a punch. Inversely, I would not be able to counter the missile given that Samus was using her own custom Side Special move -- one that has a missile begin by moving very slowly, only to accelerate gradually over time. The logical response to this is to just shield it -- to which Samus rushes in and grabs. The other logical response is to just get used to it and time it correctly. Physically, this is impossible. The missile will begin at a slow pace, then accelerate. Simple, huh? Not when you consider the fact that the missile does not stop accelerating by the time it reaches you -- meaning it is very difficult to pinpoint when it is going to make contact, due to its inconsistent speed.

The other example of this is Lucas's PK Thunder as a custom Up Special move for Ness. It travels in a tighter movement, making it superior for recovery. You would think, then, that the launch move would be lesser in terms of attacking. It doesn't turn out to be so, because rather than being worse in general, the power is transferred from knockback to damage. Then, it deals more damage than knockback as opposed to the default dealing more knockback than damage. This would mean that the recovery speed and reliability is better, while, as an attack, the move is no different.

Of course, this could be solved by simply banning individual custom moves, though we'd be banning damn near all of the custom moves by simply banning the unfair ones.

 

[san.]

I just lost to an Ike who is significantly worse as a player than I am. Why? He had a custom Neutral Special move that sent out a tornado, creating a VERY powerful windbox. This windbox was larger than the ledge sweetspot, meaning I didn't stand a chance against him, no matter what. Players can exploit custom moves in this way to give themselves an edge, and, while I was Little Mac, I don't believe any character(save for a few, like Pac-Man and Lucario) could've recovered from the windbox that blows you off-screen from a greater distance than you can grab the ledge.

So it begins.

My first thought when exploring that move was that it's bannable if someone manages to exploit it to its fullest extent. There is really nothing Little Mac can do outside of using counter against it, since it's not affected by windboxes. The Ike will probably have another one ready and you're even lower than before after it ends, though.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I just lost to an Ike who is significantly worse as a player than I am. Why? He had a custom Neutral Special move that sent out a tornado, creating a VERY powerful windbox. This windbox was larger than the ledge sweetspot, meaning I didn't stand a chance against him, no matter what. Players can exploit custom moves in this way to give themselves an edge, and, while I was Little Mac, I don't believe any character(save for a few, like Pac-Man and Lucario) could've recovered from the windbox that blows you off-screen from a greater distance than you can grab the ledge.

This thing can't be proven unbeatable with a "I believe". I don't doubt that thing is a great edgeguarding move, but still. We have not seen a lot of night consistent results yet.

Not sure what Little Mac could've done, but he's Little Mac. Your chances of getting back to the stage are significantly lower than every character and this was one of the risks of picking him. (God forbid when the Wii U version comes out and we have more stages.)

 

[Zareidriel]

I firmly believe there are custom moves that are too good.

Rosalina's Luma-teleport and single-fast-starbit specials bring her from being an S-Class character to an SS-class character; not fun to fight against with any character. If you fight a good one you'll see exactly what I mean.

I'm sure there are examples other than this one. I'd recommend a banned moves list, but that seems like it would be impossible for everyone to agree about it.

Between that fact and sheer speed and uniformity of play (especially on the Wii U version, would the moves have to be changed before each player is able to play in a tournament?) I vote that custom moves are completely banned.

 

[Teshie U]

I just lost to an Ike who is significantly worse as a player than I am. Why? He had a custom Neutral Special move that sent out a tornado, creating a VERY powerful windbox. This windbox was larger than the ledge sweetspot, meaning I didn't stand a chance against him, no matter what. Players can exploit custom moves in this way to give themselves an edge, and, while I was Little Mac, I don't believe any character(save for a few, like Pac-Man and Lucario) could've recovered from the windbox that blows you off-screen from a greater distance than you can grab the ledge.

There are also multiple instances of custom Special moves being superior to the default. For example, Mario's Fast Fireball custom Special move. Who will be hit by a normal fireball? With that in mind, the damage penalty isn't really of much importance, considering the attack is much easier to land and quicker to launch( you can fire the projectile much faster ).

Additionally, there are several custom moves designed to fool your reflexes. While I am a big fan of Little Mac's Dash Counter move, I cannot say that it is very fair. Samus shoots a missile at me, to which I respond with a counter, flinging myself at her to deliver a punch. Inversely, I would not be able to counter the missile given that Samus was using her own custom Side Special move -- one that has a missile begin by moving very slowly, only to accelerate gradually over time. The logical response to this is to just shield it -- to which Samus rushes in and grabs. The other logical response is to just get used to it and time it correctly. Physically, this is impossible. The missile will begin at a slow pace, then accelerate. Simple, huh? Not when you consider the fact that the missile does not stop accelerating by the time it reaches you -- meaning it is very difficult to pinpoint when it is going to make contact, due to its inconsistent speed.

The other example of this is Lucas's PK Thunder as a custom Up Special move for Ness. It travels in a tighter movement, making it superior for recovery. You would think, then, that the launch move would be lesser in terms of attacking. It doesn't turn out to be so, because rather than being worse in general, the power is transferred from knockback to damage. Then, it deals more damage than knockback as opposed to the default dealing more knockback than damage. This would mean that the recovery speed and reliability is better, while, as an attack, the move is no different.

Of course, this could be solved by simply banning individual custom moves, though we'd be banning damn near all of the custom moves by simply banning the unfair ones.

id have to see this ike custom in action, but I can tell you that Mario's fast fireball isnt much of an upgrade. The regular one, lets him cover landing, edgeguard and follow up. Damage also does matter as fast does less than half the damage and wont ever lead into anything due to low low hitstun.

while I don't understand how "inconsistent speed" is unfair, I will tell you that missile has terrible tracking and wont hit you if you stay moving. The relentless missile is the clear winner id say.

Custom moves, just like regular specials are on a spectrum when it comes to balance. Alot of them are meh, some are great and some can seem outright oppressive at times. Some custom moves are "too good" but some of the default specials also fall into this category. I;d much rather see every character at their best than pull the plug on all these possibilities.

The unlocking process for Wii U will probably be the death of them though.

 

[Quisciens]

The Ike custom move blew me completely off-screen without a double jump. A character like Mario wouldn't even have been able to make it back. The inconsistent speed thing makes the missile entirely impossible to judge when it's going to hit you. Don't take that out of context, though, as I was mentioning it with the also-unfair Dash Counter.

 

[Thinkaman]

We should also ban Mario and Greninja, who are equally abusive to Little Mac off-stage.

But seriously, Rosalina is legitimately hurt by custom specials more than any character in the game. Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp are good upgrades, but the sheer volume of anti-Luma tools distributed across the cast make it an overwhelming net negative for her.

Also, selecting cutoms on the WiiU is faster than inputting a nametag. Making a new set from scratch takes trivial amounts of time as well. Transferring dozens of sets from a 3DS takes less than a minute.

 

[Shaya]

You probably shouldn't play against a customs Donkey Kong either @ Quisciens
That min charge punch completely negates Little Mac's recovery too.

Is Ike's neutral b tornado significantly stronger?

 

[Thinkaman]

Me and Ampharos played some Ike vs. Little Mac games to test how abusive this is.

On one hand, if Ike gets a low-% throw on Little Mac close to the edge, he can kill Little Mac upon reading his recovery. (Ike has to commit to a jump or not, as he begins charging. If he doesn't, Little Mac can go over him and get blown inward. If he does, Little Mac can just beeline for the ledge.)

With proper timing, Ike can consistently gimp Little Mac when recovering low, UNLESS he can wall-jump up-b. This spends enough time that Ike has to release his neutral-b. (He can't hold it as long as Eruption.) Using Little Mac up-b 2 made wall jump evasion much easier. Otherwise, Little Mac needs to recover high or mid.

The real kicker is that Ike is able to gimp Little Mac just fine without wind. The real issue in this matchup is how low of an angle Ike's f-throw and b-throw are.

We tested Mario and Greninja (with default specials) as well. We agreed that Mario isn't as bad, and that Greninja is worse. (Though difficult to do on a circle pad.)


We know from previous testing that there are certain characters that Little Mac just can't recover through. (Pikachu is a brutal one) Fortunately, Little Mac's side-b 3 (which trades some distance for armor) is a very successful solution for these cases. While armor does no good against windboxes, this option to ensure Little Mac's worst matchups aren't total shutouts is an important component of Little Mac's long-term viability.

Edit:
I just tested DK's neutral 3. It seems similar but not as potent, like a stronger Palutena f-smash.

 

[Ryusuta]

I really would like to play in a tournament scene (or even a semi-competitive casual scene) if I could find one locally. Sadly, the only tournament that seems to be coming up in Washington looks like it will be banning them.

I guess I can see the issue of people potentially sneaking in equipment on a character setup, but I also think that's something that could be handled and prevented without too much effort.

I don't know... custom move tournament really just seem a lot more exciting, flexible, and unpredictable than standard ones, with more characters viable.

 

[warriorman222]

Dash Counyer is not unfair. You can SD with it much easier if you Counter in air, the multiplier is cut from 1.3 to 1.1, You can't hit in close range, The frames are reduced and the only benefit is bettter recovery and and Countering projectiles

 

[Thinkaman]

Dash Counyer is not unfair. You can SD with it much easier if you Counter in air, the multiplier is cut from 1.3 to 1.1, You can't hit in close range, The frames are reduced and the only benefit is bettter recovery and and Countering projectiles

Yeah, I raised an eyebrow at this but let it slide. It's a nice tool for Little Mac in projectile-heavy and gimp-heavy matchups, but otherwise not ideal. It's good for his worst matchups, but not others.

Shulk's dash vision, on the other hand, is pretty awful imo. He should stick with #3.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

What if Nintendo made a Custom Move Pack available for like $10?

 

[Quisciens]

That would be especially strange, unless the moves in question are completely new rather than simple variations. (@ Meta_Ridley )

 

[warriorman222]

That would be especially strange, unless the moves in question are completely new rather than simple variations. (@ Meta_Ridley )

I guess that's right. I wouldn't want to spend 10 dollars on something i'm like 9/10 through already.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

It would really help out tournament hosts to be able to instantly unlock all custom moves.

That's one of the big reasons that custom moves would be hard to implement in tournaments, right? It'd be hard to unlock everything? A $10 pack would solve that easily.

 

[Judo777]

Hope I'm not bringing up something that we stopped discussing. Concerning the Miis, I feel that if they were allowed to be used in tourney they would HAVE to have a preset height and weight for all o that particular type. I see nothing wrong splitting up height and weight for each one as long as there is a baseline for other to practice with and against.

For instance it could be like shortest gunner and brawler, tallest sword guy. It would have to be something completely concrete tho, shortest, tallest, or i guess middle could work (default or w/e). I don't know how we would decide this, tho because I feel that it would need to be pretty unanimous for each character (like saying Brawler is DEFINITELY best as shortest so all bralwers must be shortest) same for weight. Also you run into the issue of what happens when someone makes one that is just BARELY taller than shortest. So that would have to be sorted.

 

[SonicZeroX]

The day that Nintendo goes down the path of microtransactions that don't give actual new content and simply unlock things like a free to play game is the day I throw my 3DS into the trash.

 

[Quisciens]

A $10 pack to unlock things that are already in the game to be unlocked? What is this, EA?

 

[Teshie U]

I'm sure the community will eventually find exploits to unlock everything easily.

While I enjoyed the other modes on 3DS enough to get 250 custom moves without sweating it, I understand it would be a chore to play classic mode, smash run, trophy rush, streetsmash, conquest ONLY for customs and not for fun.

 

[Ryusuta]

The day that Nintendo goes down the path of microtransactions that don't give actual new content and simply unlock things like a free to play game is the day I throw my 3DS into the trash.

Avoid Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Gates to Infinity like the plague, then.

Man, I love the story and they did the 3D decently, but the actual gameplay was so utterly dumbed down in the worst possible way and worst of all, they have DLC levels. What the solitary ****.

 

[warriorman222]

Avoid Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Gates to Infinity like the plague, then.

Man, I love the story and they did the 3D decently, but the actual gameplay was so utterly dumbed down in the worst possible way and worst of all, they have DLC levels. What the solitary ****.

But But But... That's different! Pokemon games are owned by Gamefreak! Then again. GF owns 2/3 of Pokemon, but Nintendo owns 52% of GF and 1/3 of Pokemon, so i guess it's theirs.

*Chucks 3DS into landfill*

 

[Ryusuta]

But But But... That's different! Pokemon games are owned by Gamefreak! Then again. GF owns 2/3 of Pokemon, but Nintendo owns 52% of GF and 1/3 of Pokemon, so i guess it's theirs.

*Chucks 3DS into landfill*

If it helps, the storyline on Gates to Infinity (much like Rescue Team and Explorers before it) is absolutely phenomenal, filled with twists and turns and a dark edge not typically associated with Pokemon games. Like... a REALLY dark edge. I'm still glad I PLAYED Gates to Infinity, just for the story (I'm not even ashamed to say I was crying from the ending)... But yeah. The gameplay was butchered. Text was slow, it has messages nagging you to turn the console off, the missions were dumbed down ridiculously, a lot of the challenge was removed and...

...Yeah, I'm not making a great case for it. But really, the story is fantastic. And the music. And there's some really good cinematography on some of the cutscenes. I don't know. It's a game I don't know if I'll play again anytime soon, yet in spite of its flaws, I simply can't bring myself to dislike it even slightly.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Oh yeah some of their spin offs are kinda eh.

At least the Mario Kart 8 DLC is really good. It's like 50% more content for 25% of the price.

As long as Smash's DLC pricing is that fair then I'll be fine with it. Hopefully they don't charge a ridiculous amount just for Mewtwo.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

If there ever was a custom I felt needed to be banned. It would be Mii Brawler's up B 3. That thing is ridiculous how early, and easily it can kill.

 

[AccountsDept]

I just lost to an Ike who is significantly worse as a player than I am. Why? He had a custom Neutral Special move that sent out a tornado, creating a VERY powerful windbox. This windbox was larger than the ledge sweetspot, meaning I didn't stand a chance against him, no matter what. Players can exploit custom moves in this way to give themselves an edge, and, while I was Little Mac, I don't believe any character(save for a few, like Pac-Man and Lucario) could've recovered from the windbox that blows you off-screen from a greater distance than you can grab the ledge.

There are also multiple instances of custom Special moves being superior to the default. For example, Mario's Fast Fireball custom Special move. Who will be hit by a normal fireball? With that in mind, the damage penalty isn't really of much importance, considering the attack is much easier to land and quicker to launch( you can fire the projectile much faster ).

Additionally, there are several custom moves designed to fool your reflexes. While I am a big fan of Little Mac's Dash Counter move, I cannot say that it is very fair. Samus shoots a missile at me, to which I respond with a counter, flinging myself at her to deliver a punch. Inversely, I would not be able to counter the missile given that Samus was using her own custom Side Special move -- one that has a missile begin by moving very slowly, only to accelerate gradually over time. The logical response to this is to just shield it -- to which Samus rushes in and grabs. The other logical response is to just get used to it and time it correctly. Physically, this is impossible. The missile will begin at a slow pace, then accelerate. Simple, huh? Not when you consider the fact that the missile does not stop accelerating by the time it reaches you -- meaning it is very difficult to pinpoint when it is going to make contact, due to its inconsistent speed.

The other example of this is Lucas's PK Thunder as a custom Up Special move for Ness. It travels in a tighter movement, making it superior for recovery. You would think, then, that the launch move would be lesser in terms of attacking. It doesn't turn out to be so, because rather than being worse in general, the power is transferred from knockback to damage. Then, it deals more damage than knockback as opposed to the default dealing more knockback than damage. This would mean that the recovery speed and reliability is better, while, as an attack, the move is no different.

Of course, this could be solved by simply banning individual custom moves, though we'd be banning damn near all of the custom moves by simply banning the unfair ones.

er
you're playing little mac
the most gimped character in existance


i think the custom move's not the problem
and even beyond that
nothing that you stated is intrinsically broken, not to the point of warranting a ban.

Samus's missile is better at long range but i'd imagine against little mac who moves at a million miles per hour this wouldn't be an issue. I'm not trying to go the "you think they're bad because you're bad" route, but that missile is particularly only good for ledge guarding and baiting out melee only characters (i.e: little mac). And in my opinion, little mac's counter was already the best one in the game save for Shulk, covering a rather large distance and doing an absurd amount of damage. If your argument is that it has too much reach, then please ban shulk's normal counter as well, then.

The PK thunder example is a buff, i'd agree, but again, if we're treating all the moves equally, that specific one would just be preferred.

(Again, the Ike example is a little bit silly, there are just so many things that gimp little mac easily. I believe i'm aware of the move you're mentioning, and i was able to punish it ridiculously easy with Fox and Sheik. Same situation too, a player less skilled than I.)

 

[MrGame&Rock]

If there ever was a custom I felt needed to be banned. It would be Mii Brawler's up B 2. That thing is ridiculous how early, and easily it can kill.

You mean the helicopter kick?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

You mean the helicopter kick?

Yes, that one. At a ClashTournaments match going on right now, Nakat was wiping the floor with this Mii Brawler using his Ness, when DaPuffster rolls out his Up-B and kills him at 45%.

 

[RWB]

If there ever was a custom I felt needed to be banned. It would be Mii Brawler's up B 2. That thing is ridiculous how early, and easily it can kill.

Um, Up B 3(Piston Punch) kills even earlier.