Custom Moveset Discussion

[M15t3R E]

Doesn't matter, it's D1

Anyway, with the 3DS loading, a TO could possibly only need to unlock all customs only once, and load them onto to each system, removing the only reason to ban customs.

I hope that this can be done quickly and easily in the future.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Right now from the direct it's looking like only transferring custom characters, not transferring all custom moves. Hopefully that's not the case, since either a legitimate save or one made with Powersaves 3DS (makes it so you can easily cheat in all custom moves on the 3DS) would be great for TOs.

Well even then, it doesn't seem unreasonable to just have custom characters be named after numbers. 2331 or 1123 etc. Of course, the real kicker I suppose would be being able to edit these around. We shall see.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well even then, it doesn't seem unreasonable to just have custom characters be named after numbers. 2331 or 1123 etc. Of course, the real kicker I suppose would be being able to edit these around. We shall see.

This is what I do.

 

[Glottis]

Well even then, it doesn't seem unreasonable to just have custom characters be named after numbers. 2331 or 1123 etc. Of course, the real kicker I suppose would be being able to edit these around. We shall see.

It says in the top right corner of the custom Samus in the direct that transferred custom fighters cannot be edited. So i guess this would mean that every possible combination of every character would have to be transferred over for tournaments.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

It says in the top right corner of the custom Samus in the direct that transferred custom fighters cannot be edited. So i guess this would mean that every possible combination of every character would have to be transferred over for tournaments.

While we obviously can't transfer every combination with only eight slots. So for this early meta, popular moves should be prioritized with an empty slot left for when the Wii Us have more moves unlocked. It's a temporary solution that will become uneeded as more players unlock custom moves over time.

It's a good thing so many moves seem pretty bad.

 

[Thinkaman]

It says in the top right corner of the custom Samus in the direct that transferred custom fighters cannot be edited. So i guess this would mean that every possible combination of every character would have to be transferred over for tournaments.

In practice, there will be only 1-3 optimal movesets for the vast majority of characters in high-level competitive 1v1 play.

 

[Loki]

You guys are starting from a line of thinking that is before accepting the generally accepted law that we need to reduce variance in a competitive fighting game.

It's the reason we get rid of items.

It's the reason we ban stages with unpredictable outcomes.

It's why people hated tripping.

Smash is at its best when the better player wins based on strategy, reads, set ups, mind games, zoning, etc. We attempt to reduce variance by cutting out luck factors as much as possible. Bowser having a 2/3 shot on taking your stock because you don't know which move he uses is not good for the game. What you are talking about isn't variety, it's luck. Keeping customs legal is adding variety. Making it so that your move set is a secret to your opponent is forcing them to commit to make blind guesses.

I'd like to point out that your examples are not the best analogies.

In football this would be equivalent to 1/3 of the time the ball is intercepted, the offense gets to keep the ball at the spot of the interception. It's adding variety to the game afterall!

Poker is gambling. There is tons of luck involved. This is the reason billionaires will sit with the best pros in the world at poker. Luck is better than skill and anyone can win on any given day. The Moneymaker Effect stemmed from this and is why poker was big (before Black Friday).

In Pokemon critical hits can change entire matches. Who likes critical hits more? Seasoned Pokemon pros, or noobs who otherwise have no shot at beating said pro?

Variance hurts better players and gives a boost to lesser skilled players. The competitive scene in Smash is all about favoring skill over luck. Keeping move sets secret encourages luck over skill. This needs to be avoided.

Custom moves dont have to be a secret from your opponent. You can easily say "Ok, I am going 2311 now instead of 1111 now." That way, the "surprise" factor is no longer a problem and instead. Both players would know what the other is using but still, they would need to adapt to the changes wich are by no means random unlike equipments, therefore, customs are not inherently a "bad" variable. Anyone with proper practice and knowledge will be able to understand and quickly adapt to these changes by the sole mention of the setup.

Having your opponent know your moves is not a bad thing neither. He wil know what you have, but he still will need to adapt to your new strategies and countermeasures. See it kind of as side-decking on magic or yugioh with the difference of telling your opponent what cards you are swapping in and out. TCG pros know what cards will be sided against them, the same will happen with smash. Pros will know what moves are more effective against their characters or their strategies, thus will be able to foresee custom counterpicks.

 

[M15t3R E]

Custom moves dont have to be a secret from your opponent. You can easily say "Ok, I am going 2311 now instead of 1111 now." That way, the "surprise" factor is no longer a problem and instead. Both players would know what the other is using but still, they would need to adapt to the changes wich are by no means random unlike equipments, therefore, customs are not inherently a "bad" variable. Anyone with proper practice and knowledge will be able to understand and quickly adapt to these changes by the sole mention of the setup.

Having your opponent know your moves is not a bad thing neither. He wil know what you have, but he still will need to adapt to your new strategies and countermeasures. See it kind of as side-decking on magic or yugioh with the difference of telling your opponent what cards you are swapping in and out. TCG pros know what cards will be sided against them, the same will happen with smash. Pros will know what moves are more effective against their characters or their strategies, thus will be able to foresee custom counterpicks.

I don't think anyone will know what every random four number combination means for every character in the game by memory. Perhaps it's more reasonable that each player states all four special move names that they are using. This will happen before game 1 and each player will have to stick to that setup for at least that set.

 

[Loki]

Please, every move has only 3 variants and of those 3 variants one of them is already the "stock move". The ones we all know (or should know) by default. That "default move" is inherently number 1 wich is also how it is labeled by the system.

Now then, following the format the games displays the customs for us, these "random numbers" mean what follows:
- The fist number is the neutral B
- The second number is the side B
- The third number is up B
- The fourth number is down B

This format doesnt has to change as is pretty intuitive. Also, every number cant go beyond 3 because thats the most variations we get for a move, 3. Every number 1 is already way too easy to remember because it means the default move, thus only leaving us with having to learn the other two, wich is by no means a dificult thing to do.

To support this even more, you will not even have to memorize every move, because anyone who does his homerwork will already know what moves work in what situations and what moves dont, thus only having to focus on these moves that might be problematic for you, your style or your character, also this taking on account that certain customs are simply bad compared to other variants and will not see usage in a competitive format, furthermore decreasing the ammount of time one has to dedicate to learn them.

So... when I say 2311 what do I mean?... simple:
In the case of the character I use the most, Robin, it means I am changing my thunder (neutral B) to the thunder+ variant (wich charges slower but packs quite a punch), that I am also changing to the firewall variant (side B) wich makes a wall of fire right in front of me while keeping my default up B and down B intact.

All these customs are to a degree similar to their stock version and it should be pretty easy to memorize what they do with proper study... a thing anyone going pro should be doing in the first place.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'll point out that this "system" is so intuitive that multiple people came up with it independently.

 

[popsofctown]

There's as much reason for a player to stick to a custom moveset the whole set as there is for a player to stick to a character the whole set.

Names are a lot easier to remember than numbers, it's easier to remember what gust cape does and what shocking cape does than it is to remember what cape 2 does and cape 3 does. I prefer sticking to names.

 

[Loki]

from a TO's administrative point of view, numbers are easier to register and control than names. Typing down every custom name would be too time consuming:

"Thunder+, Firewall, Elwind, Nosferatu" VS "2311"

This also makes consulting information easier for both TO´s and other contestants before a battle. It is true that names are more explanatory by themselves, however I believe they should be used when the combatants are already in front of each other. For the sake of being efficient, numbers are better on the grand scheme of things.

 

[Thinkaman]

Set names are 10 characters max.

 

[M15t3R E]

from a TO's administrative point of view, numbers are easier to register and control than names. Typing down every custom name would be too time consuming:

"Thunder+, Firewall, Elwind, Nosferatu" VS "2311"

This also makes consulting information easier for both TO´s and other contestants before a battle. It is true that names are more explanatory by themselves, however I believe they should be used when the combatants are already in front of each other. For the sake of being efficient, numbers are better on the grand scheme of things.

I don't think TO's should be concerned with recording a player's special move combination unless that combination is not allowed to change the entire tournament. In this case, yes, it is easier for a TO to register 2323 as opposed to the four special move names. For opponents, they deserve to hear the names being listed. It's homework enough just to look at every characters custom moves and gain an understanding of its applications and limitations.

There's as much reason for a player to stick to a custom moveset the whole set as there is for a player to stick to a character the whole set.

Names are a lot easier to remember than numbers, it's easier to remember what gust cape does and what shocking cape does than it is to remember what cape 2 does and cape 3 does. I prefer sticking to names.

In a big way, you are right. The difference is that it takes more time to change a special move combination every game than to just change your character. Then again, if you change your character you should be able to use whatever new combination you want for that character. It's time consuming... but we'll need to work around it.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I don't think TO's should be concerned with recording a player's special move combination unless that combination is not allowed to change the entire tournament. In this case, yes, it is easier for a TO to register 2323 as opposed to the four special move names. For opponents, they deserve to hear the names being listed. It's homework enough just to look at every characters custom moves and gain an understanding of its applications and limitations.

In a big way, you are right. The difference is that it takes more time to change a special move combination every game than to just change your character. Then again, if you change your character you should be able to use whatever new combination you want for that character. It's time consuming... but we'll need to work around it.

A little bit of homework should be expected of our top players. Our best players are some of the most well versed in their games, and it's people like that who excel. And besides, this isn't like the early 2000s where video tutorials were rare. All custom moves have videos of their effects, and tutorials for their use will only improve over time. It's far from too much to ask of them.

And it's not that long to go into a quick menu to change a set of moves. Especially if there's a preset there.

 

[popsofctown]

I don't think TO's should be concerned with recording a player's special move combination unless that combination is not allowed to change the entire tournament. In this case, yes, it is easier for a TO to register 2323 as opposed to the four special move names. For opponents, they deserve to hear the names being listed. It's homework enough just to look at every characters custom moves and gain an understanding of its applications and limitations.

In a big way, you are right. The difference is that it takes more time to change a special move combination every game than to just change your character. Then again, if you change your character you should be able to use whatever new combination you want for that character. It's time consuming... but we'll need to work around it.

I'm cool with requiring players to use one of the 10 premade custom set slots. That makes it take the same amount of time, at least on the DS version.

 

[M15t3R E]

I'm cool with requiring players to use one of the 10 premade custom set slots. That makes it take the same amount of time, at least on the DS version.

A little bit of homework should be expected of our top players. Our best players are some of the most well versed in their games, and it's people like that who excel. And besides, this isn't like the early 2000s where video tutorials were rare. All custom moves have videos of their effects, and tutorials for their use will only improve over time. It's far from too much to ask of them.

And it's not that long to go into a quick menu to change a set of moves. Especially if there's a preset there.

So Villager 3231 or ZSS 2332 or Little Mac 1322 and any other character/number combination should just be memorized? That's absurd. For opponents, the names should be verbally stated before the game.
I am also not opposed to a premade list of 10 custom special move characters for each character. That's 10 combinations to choose from, or 11 including the 1111 build which is technically not a customization. But I would hope that this list of 10 would be universal and would come with careful consideration of which custom moves are most helpful and which aren't.

 

[popsofctown]

If you bring a DS to the event, choose one of the 10 you have from DS upload.
If you don't bring a DS, use one of the 10 set up on the machine and labelled with numbers. If you don't like those 10, buy a DS.

That's what I figure.

 

[M15t3R E]

If you bring a DS to the event, choose one of the 10 you have from DS upload.
If you don't bring a DS, use one of the 10 set up on the machine and labelled with numbers. If you don't like those 10, buy a DS.

That's what I figure.

I don't love the idea, but it's not horrible. I'd go for it.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Yes, it should be memorized. You don't have to memorize the combination, just what each move does. Yes, the moves may have different effects when interacting with each other, but that's up to the player to adapt to the other's playstyle.

If you want, perhaps we could label them N#U#B#S# like how we name the neutrals.

 

[Loki]

So Villager 3231 or ZSS 2332 or Little Mac 1322 and any other character/number combination should just be memorized? That's absurd. For opponents, the names should be verbally stated before the game.
I am also not opposed to a premade list of 10 custom special move characters for each character. That's 10 combinations to choose from, or 11 including the 1111 build which is technically not a customization. But I would hope that this list of 10 would be universal and would come with careful consideration of which custom moves are most helpful and which aren't.

Are you implying that memorizing 1, 2 and 3 is harder than memorizing the actual names and the effects?. If you memorize the name, you sure as hell will memorize the number as well.

A name is just as useful as a number if you still dont know what said move does, thus studying IS requiered. As I said, names are inherently more descriptive but they dont cover all the properties that the move has.

So, yes. In the end, you will have to know what Mac 1322 does and what it is called. Me knowing the name or the number does nothing if I still have no idea how they work.

 

[M15t3R E]

Are you implying that memorizing 1, 2 and 3 is harder than memorizing the actual names and the effects?. If you memorize the name, you sure as hell will memorize the number as well.

A name is just as useful as a number if you still dont know what said move does, thus studying IS requiered. As I said, names are inherently more descriptive but they dont cover all the properties that the move has.

So, yes. In the end, you will have to know what Mac 1322 does and what it is called. Me knowing the name or the number does nothing if I still have no idea how they work.

Yes, I am saying that moves are easier to memorize than the number. You have to correspond a number with a special move name in your mind, so it makes more sense to tell your opponent the moves.
I just think "Little Mac Straight Lunge, Guard Break, Tornado Uppercut, Compact Counter" is easier for your opponent to understand than "Little Mac 1322". If you told me "Little Mac 1322" I'd have to think about each number and which moves they correspond to in the first place.

 

[popsofctown]

Man, I just don't seem to have as much passion for names vs. numbers as the numbers people do, so I will concede. Go with the number convention if you believe in it.

 

[M15t3R E]

I agree that in the premade list of custom characters that the characters should be named by their combination like "Mac1322" or "Pika2311".

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, I feel this is a moot point. If anyone wants to ask "Hey, what's DK's down-b 2 again? Is that the electric one or what?" it's trivial to spend 5 whole seconds to let them check.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I mean, I feel this is a moot point. If anyone wants to ask "Hey, what's DK's down-b 2 again? Is that the electric one or what?" it's trivial to spend 5 whole seconds to let them check.

It's probably still worth the time to formalize the procedure for the sake of actually having it in writing, but I agree it doesn't need to be complex. Standardize the naming scheme for movesets to 1123 or whatever, and allow the player to request clarification on what move is what.

That said, I don't think we need to mandate that we tell the opposition what the moves actually do. If they can't remember whether Robin's down 3 is Distant Nosferatu or Goetia, that's one thing, but if they don't know how Goetia is different in the first place that's their own fault.

 

[Kel]

Custom moves dont have to be a secret from your opponent. You can easily say "Ok, I am going 2311 now instead of 1111 now." .

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm advocating haha.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

How long does it normally take to set up a regular melee match, introduce counterpicks, etc? I don't frequent the youtube videos a lot but it seems like each set of matches takes some time to set up and the commentators have some time to chat before the fighting actually starts. If each person has enough time beforehand to modify the customs/import from the 3ds version and it's not too time-consuming, I say allow custom moves. The only problem I have with custom moves is that it potentially opens the door for custom accessories, which leans toward game-breaking for me.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Knowing this community. Once something is banned, it won't be unbanned without the earth cracking open, and people are so against custom equipment that I doubt it will even be considered anything more than friendlies.

 

[Loki]

Custom equipments and custom moves are two very different things. Equipments are also way more delicate in their effects to the metagame than moves are. We dont have reasons of weight to not even consider customs moves. All the opposite.

 

[M15t3R E]

Yeah, custom moves can improve the competitive nature of the game while equipment will add a huge factor of randomness which will damage the entire metagame.

 

[Geo1576]

We all know about the nature of competitive, its about a players skill with a character in the game based on their moves. Each of these moves can improve a match up, and changing these are considered to ruin the match-ups and the tier lists we put them in.

But what should we do with the custom moves? Well, that's where the community experimentation comes in, but I also have a recommendation.

I see about 3 severe problems with custom moves, and I have been thinking of solutions to these problems.

1. Certain moves are broken/Overpowered
Well, the most obvious option is to ban them. However, Some moves should go under a skill clause, which means that the move is only considered overpowered in certain situation, or if lots of skill is involved. For example, if you look at a character like Little Mac or Jigglypuff who's default Specials can be great finishers with skill and timing, there is no real reason to ban it. I believe Banned customs or custom move sets should only be moves that are Unbalanced , Inescapable, and Overly-powerful with little skill.

2. Custom moves are not easy to get, I don't Have X custom move
This is another hard Problem, With only certain outlier Characters such as the Miis and Palutena. This is one good defense for people against custom moves. All I have for this one is, if you really want to main a character, just spend time getting those custom moves. If you do want to go spend your time getting every custom move, it shows you are dedicated and willing to strive, and if you are really interested in competitive custom moves, I suggest you do this.

3. Custom move/moveset X makes Y character have better match-ups.
I think that this is actually okay. This is completely changes certain play styles of characters in some cases, which can make game more interesting. Of course, if this makes a character overpowered it shouldn't be allowed. But each custom move should balanced to a point where skill is used to cover weakness and flaunt strengths. This can allow for more balanced, skill based game play with every character, not just the ones gifted with good move sets.

All in all it comes down to one thing: Skill. In competitive, each player armed with their skill should be able to have fun, intense, and most of all balanced game play regardless of unique movesets.

Besides, even if no one agrees, we can always have a separation between standard and custom Competitive matches.

 

[Thinkaman]

There are several topics on this already.

The vast majority of players support custom moves, and they will be integrated into standard competitive play.

 

[Thinkaman]

Guys, we have confirmation that not only can players select custom moves from the lobby on the WiiU, but they can do it in parallel without going full screen!

This is even faster than we suspected!

http://youtu.be/ld4uQClLd5U?t=1m2s

 

[Batousai]

This, custom specials is now a viable possibility. It also means that everyone gets to see which load out you pick AND can confirm that no equipment is being used. That helps the legalization of custom specials along a bit.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

According to the overall competitive ruleset discussion - the one stickied in the top of the board - general consensus says yes to custom moves as long as they're visible to everyone :D

 

[DanGR]

I'm grabbing this quote from the general character competitive impressions thread.

From the video it looks like he's using the shortest + fattest combination which people seem to think is the optimal combo since being tall has huge drawbacks and being fat seems to be strictly better than being skinny for some reason.

It would be a shame if default height/width was forced in tournaments resulting in non-optimal and weaker Miis.

There's a discussion to be had regarding the difference between allowing/disallowing items, custom moves, equipment, and varying heights/widths of Mii characters. The former 3 of the 4 have their own threads. I don't see much discussion about the Miis outside of their respective subforums. The community generally accepts items and equipment bans. The latter 2 are more debatable.

Let me start by saying the purpose of disallowing any or some of these is to standardize the competitive game-play experience, and to remove inconsistent game-play interaction, leading to a skillful, suitably complex game where players exhibiting the best skills we want to test are most likely to win.

The important factors here are the following:
1. Standardized, competitive game-play experience.
2. Consistent game-play behavior and interaction.
3. Used skills are the ones we want to test.

-Items-
Items allow for an extremely volatile and inconsistent game-play experience. They don't allow players to test the character vs. character fighting game skills we simply want to test.

-Equipment-
Equipment values are quantifiable. They are available for testing, and can be displayed before each match. Theoretically speaking, if we were to allow equipment, we could very generally calculate kill values, combos/strings, and other game-play differences equipment stats alter. However, this extreme of calculation isn't a skill this fighting game community wants to test. Also consider we aren't super computers capable of accurately calculating all of these variable combos/strings, and kill percentages anyways. In short, custom equipment is a quantifiable variable, but it's also so difficult to account for that in practice it makes our game-play experience volatile and inconsistent, and takes away from the other, more important skills we want to test.

-Custom moves-
Custom moves are quantifiable. They can all realistically be learned and adapted to. With a good ruleset, and once the Wii-U version is available (when we can easily unlock all of the custom moves for each Wii-U at tournaments), the competitive game-play experience will be more standardized and consistent. Most of the real debate around custom moves is whether or not we want to test the skill of adapting to a more complex counterpick system than we've ever seen before in SSB. There are some more abstract metagame benefits that come with a more complex counterpick system, but that's a topic for another day.

-Miis-
It's difficult to quantify the Miis height and width variables because they're adjustable on a scale. There are around ~50 different notches on this scale for both height and width. I don't know if each notch has it's own damage, range, speed, and jump height values, or if it's interval based (perhaps 6 intervals, based on the customization layout), but we know the extremes have different values. Here's a thread with a lot of the calculation data. The damage value changes are variably insignificant, while range, speed, and jump height change more dramatically. While we can get a general idea of Mii height and width from the in-game pictures and character models, the exact value aren't shown. We have to go back to the Mii customization menu outside of Sm4sh to access this information. ASSUMING the values listed earlier correspond more variably than just the extremes, and even if we specify before each match for example, 20/50 height and 45/50 width, we run into the same consistency problems equipment has when it comes to calculating different interactions.

There is a solution though. There are 9 possible combinations if you use each of the height and width extremes, in order to artificially and somewhat arbitrarily create 9 standardized characters using the Miis. The height/width values and their corresponding stat values are realistically quantifiable, and each variable can be easily displayed visually before each match, within sm4sh. But is it appropriate to have players learn each of the heights and widths and calculate for each? Is 9 variations of 3 different Miis (27 in total) too much? That's a lot more characters to learn. On the other hand, perhaps using the default Mii height/width is best.

 

[Shaya]

I'm not sure if there are different height/widths to them, but every 3DS has access to six default Miis universal to all regions.
When choosing to create a mii fighter you can press 'left' to see them all, and use them as the avatar.

This is seemingly the only bona fide standard way we can deal with Miis without having to worry about us finding/making "standards" for use.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't see custom clarity as much of an issue. What's wrong with saying "Can you name your customs/Show the description?" Come Wii U people can just look on the screen and see what is selected.

For Mii's I don't think it'll be a large issue either. There are the 9 default, but additionally even if you go for one of your choosing you should be able to mention this beforehand so that this can be accommodated in advance shouldn't you?
"Hey I plan to use a Mii Fighter, and I feel X specifications are optimal" if you aren't goofing around with face creation/colors/names it wouldn't take long. Even still if that's found unacceptable eventually additional presets will surface if accepted community standards for a mii fighter come about.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I'm not sure if there are different height/widths to them, but every 3DS has access to six default Miis universal to all regions.
When choosing to create a mii fighter you can press 'left' to see them all, and use them as the avatar.

This is seemingly the only bona fide standard way we can deal with Miis without having to worry about us finding/making "standards" for use.

If we HAVE to do this in order for Miis to be playable that's fine. It's just too bad people's personalities can't shine through as much. I wanna pwn people with my Toph Beifong of the Hidden Leaf Village Mii (Narutoph). Then again, it also eliminates the worry I had that people would use controversial Miis for the sake of being controversial (Jesus, Mohammed, inappropriate pictures, etc.), so there's a plus