Custom Moveset Discussion

[Malex]

We're not saying to ban S tier stuff, we're saying to ban outright broken stuff. Like MK's IDC in Brawl.

If it a particular technique is used to bypass normal methods of play, then that technique should be banned. Dimensional cape wasn't banned. Metaknight wasn't banned. Infinite dimensional cape was banned.

You say that now, but when thinking about a particular Match--Up and how your opponent plays with their character, and when you then factor in the stage, choosing your moveset can actually take quite some time.

There aren't that many option to consider. Each you and your opponent only has 12 custom moves to choose from. The suggested rules for tournament picks right now are Stage>Char1>Char2>Moves1>Moves2. In this situation, custom moves should take at most 1 minute to assign. You only have to prepare your 12 options vs their 12 options. (In reality, it will be less, as not all moves will be viable in all match ups.)

Also, if one move is actually broken enough to break the balance of the game, it should go away. I'm a fan of the whole "all or nothing" approach you suggest, but at the same time that's now always how it works. I mean just look at stages, we don't have the "all or nothing' mentality there, do we? As for deciding what'd OP and what isn't, we can only let tournament and ladder data decide that. If one move ends up making a character a dominant force on the circuit and we notice that its shutting down a lot of play for a lot of characters, then its legality should be cvlled into question. But we won't know what is and isn't hellishly good until we get appropriate data, so its too early to tell

While it is true we don't have the data to support any type of bans right now, picking and choosing which moves are "too good" is not a route we should go down. What circumstances warrant a move being banned? Even after you have the data, where's the line? Because if the #1 move is too good, then the #2 move is probably going to be right there. Followed closely by the #3 move. etc

Its the same thing with equipment. While I'm against equipment, at the same time I can't help but want it to be legal for a bit just to see what happens. If it has as positive of an influence on the meta as supporters say it will, then keep it. But if it has a negative affect or fails to add any reasonable depth or strategy to the meta, then do away with it. How will we know what action to take? When the tournament data comes in and we get to see how everything is affected by the inclusion of these mechanics

I am always in favor of deferring a decision until data is collected. It is easy to ban things, but nearly impossible to unban them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I just played in a tournament with legal custom moves (no equipment). The game really is just plain better with them legal; as I begin to get a picture of how this game plays, I really get the feeling that the balance is just plain a lot better with custom moves on. Being able to pull out that one custom, whatever that one may be, seems to allow a lot of characters to deal with otherwise bad match-ups (this situation seems much more common than the inverse of a strong custom making a match bad), and I'm getting a sense of some characters as seeming lower tier but then the prospect of powerful customs (that we haven't unlocked and can't fully explore yet) seems to give them a second wind and good prospects. I don't know how everything will play out in the long run, but I'm beginning to have the strong feeling that the game is just plain better with custom moves allowed and not just a little better either.

Has anyone else actually played in a custom move legal tournament yet? How did it go for you guys if so?

 

[Illuvial]

While it is true we don't have the data to support any type of bans right now, picking and choosing which moves are "too good" is not a route we should go down. What circumstances warrant a move being banned? Even after you have the data, where's the line? Because if the #1 move is too good, then the #2 move is probably going to be right there. Followed closely by the #3 move. etc


I am always in favor of deferring a decision until data is collected. It is easy to ban things, but nearly impossible to unban them.

How do we know something is bannable? When it overcentralizes the meta and when the move clearly is exploitable BIG TIME and makes a character simply dominate most of the cast. Its not as petty as "Well this is the best custom move so **** this move" its "This move is actually hurting the competitive scene its so good and a lot of characters can't handle this move so **** this move its outta here"

As for unbanning them, Meta Knight from Brawl wants a word. Its easy as hell to unban things, its actually much harder to ban them in most cases (unless its a stage or something)

 

[Malex]

How do we know something is bannable? When it overcentralizes the meta and when the move clearly is exploitable BIG TIME and makes a character simply dominate most of the cast. Its not as petty as "Well this is the best custom move so **** this move" its "This move is actually hurting the competitive scene its so good and a lot of characters can't handle this move so **** this move its outta here"

Right, but my point is there is a line that exists between "bannable" and "not bannable" and that there is no set criteria for it. The criteria you listed of "Hurts the competitive scene" and "a lot of characters can't handle it" aren't strict criteria. So unless you can define "bannable" in a completely unambiguous way, then there could be a problem.

"Most of the cast" can't handle Fox / Falco in melee. If you ban them, more characters are viable in tournaments. We don't see anyone calling for their ban. By eliminating the top few characters, we could have a "better game" through more viable characters.

Using the statistics on the rankings page:

Fox in melee:

20% of the top 16 are Fox.
~30% of the bracket winners are Fox.

Metaknight in brawl:

16% of top 16.
~25% of bracket winners.

Why was Metaknight borderline bannable but Fox was never considered? Because the criteria to ban are based on opinion and not clearly defined. (Unless they are so OP it's Akuma from SFT2 broken and 100% of players have to play him or lose and there exists no counter in the game for it) So what exact % is required? 50%? If 50% is the limit and data yields 49% is it bannable then?

As for unbanning them, Meta Knight from Brawl wants a word. Its easy as hell to unban things, its actually much harder to ban them in most cases (unless its a stage or something)

In the history of smash, one thing was unbanned and many things were banned. Once something gets adopted into the competitive ruleset at major tournies, smaller tournies follow suit, and it is very difficult to undo it. This is more inline with the legal stage discussion, which has the most banned things.

 

[LancerStaff]

If it a particular technique is used to bypass normal methods of play, then that technique should be banned. Dimensional cape wasn't banned. Metaknight wasn't banned. Infinite dimensional cape was banned.

It's just for simplicity. Me, I'd rather have it be impossible to perform the technique then going by an outside rule.

 

[Rakath]

It's just for simplicity. Me, I'd rather have it be impossible to perform the technique then going by an outside rule.

You mean like how in soccer matches everyone but the goalie has their hands duct taped into fists to prevent them from using them on the ball?

Wait, we don't do that...

 

[LancerStaff]

You mean like how in soccer matches everyone but the goalie has their hands duct taped into fists to prevent them from using them on the ball?

Wait, we don't do that...

That's a different situation. If it turns out that banning the glitch is like banning Wavedashing, (I just wanted to airdodge into the ground!) then it'll be necessary. If it's a very limited situation, then we won't even need to ban it. But if it's easily done, like the IDC, and there's basically no merit to the move otherwise, just ditch it and be done with it. Even if it's a useful move, we'd probably be better off getting rid of it, just short of it ruining the character.

 

[Fafnir]

You mean like how in soccer matches everyone but the goalie has their hands duct taped into fists to prevent them from using them on the ball?

Wait, we don't do that...

But we should. Because it'd be hilarious.

 

[smash4]

Do i need to use amiibo for custom moves on wii u? or can i do it like in the 3DS?

 

[Malex]

That's a different situation. If it turns out that banning the glitch is like banning Wavedashing, (I just wanted to airdodge into the ground!) then it'll be necessary. If it's a very limited situation, then we won't even need to ban it. But if it's easily done, like the IDC, and there's basically no merit to the move otherwise, just ditch it and be done with it. Even if it's a useful move, we'd probably be better off getting rid of it, just short of it ruining the character.

Under the assumptions:

-There is a custom move with an exploit.
-The exploit bypasses regular play.
-The exploit is easily performed.

--

If the move has no other merit -> Ban the exploit. Most people will no longer use the custom move, but certain people may want to if it appeals to a unpopular play style.

If the move has merit -> Ban the exploit. Games will proceed as normal.


This is assuming an exploit similar to IDC. If you move the goal posts far enough, I'm sure I'll agree with you eventually. But banning a custom move is the absolutely last resort decision that we should come make.

 

[Rakath]

That's a different situation. If it turns out that banning the glitch is like banning Wavedashing, (I just wanted to airdodge into the ground!) then it'll be necessary. If it's a very limited situation, then we won't even need to ban it. But if it's easily done, like the IDC, and there's basically no merit to the move otherwise, just ditch it and be done with it. Even if it's a useful move, we'd probably be better off getting rid of it, just short of it ruining the character.

How is it different? You are talking about a specific strategy that is unfair, or against the nature of the game. And that the only way to remove it is to remove the possibility of the move entirely. As, the idea of telling people not to do it, is apparently unfathomable to you.

If an exploit exists in a specific move, tell people not to use it, it's the least intrusive answer. If the answer to the IDC exploit was to ban Meta Knight it would have unmade the competitive scene for Brawl. Without the exploit Meta Knight is still strong, without the exploit DC is still useful, why ban either if only the exploit is an issue?

 

[Illuvial]

No seriously why not? Other than adding more time to tournaments for people to customize movesets I see no issue with this. Maybe it makes the best characters a bit better, but it also makes the worst characters better so what's the harm? I mean, I'm totally ok with having custom movesets be banned in tournaments, but at the same time why not let them slide?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Because "it would be too much work to learn all of the moves", and it would make games "too unpredictable because you'd have to spend time figuring out the opponent's moveset" and "it takes too much time to unlock all the moves"

But what people don't realise is that some custom moves are simply superior to others/some custom moves don't bring enough to the table to warrant being used, so realistically tourney-viable options will be narrowed down sufficiently that the guessing game won't be an issue (not that it would have been to begin with). For example, NOBODY who wants to place high in a tournament will use the Villager's giant pocket, rising lloid, giant tree, or high jump customs. The standard pocket has enough range as it is and is stronger, standard balloon trip already does what the rising lloid and high jump do, giant tree is unrealistic to set up and KO with it, and as a wall the standard tree suffices. This narrows it down to only one other custom for every move, which isn't at all difficult. Shulk will NEVER run Decisive Monado Arts, and I feel I shouldn't have to explain why. Lucina and Marth will very rarely run Dolphin Jump over slash, because the bit of extra height isnt worth sacrificing a fairly powerful hitbox for.

But whatever

 

[Illuvial]

I mean maybe its because I play Final Fantasy Dissidia competitively, and that game revolves almost entirely around customization (including movesets). Honestly its just knowing the Match-Up in that game, and having to figure out what moves your opponent chooses never mattered much in Dissidia (still doesn't) so I don't see much issue here. I'd love the meta to stay simple without custom moves, but I'd also love to have them in the game. The difference is that my reason for wanting them out is because of tradition, I really don't have valid reasons otherwise

 

[LancerStaff]

Under the assumptions:

-There is a custom move with an exploit.
-The exploit bypasses regular play.
-The exploit is easily performed.

--

If the move has no other merit -> Ban the exploit. Most people will no longer use the custom move, but certain people may want to if it appeals to a unpopular play style.

If the move has merit -> Ban the exploit. Games will proceed as normal.


This is assuming an exploit similar to IDC. If you move the goal posts far enough, I'm sure I'll agree with you eventually. But banning a custom move is the absolutely last resort decision that we should come make.

It's much easier to ban a move then to ban a way to use a move.

How is it different? You are talking about a specific strategy that is unfair, or against the nature of the game. And that the only way to remove it is to remove the possibility of the move entirely. As, the idea of telling people not to do it, is apparently unfathomable to you.

If an exploit exists in a specific move, tell people not to use it, it's the least intrusive answer. If the answer to the IDC exploit was to ban Meta Knight it would have unmade the competitive scene for Brawl. Without the exploit Meta Knight is still strong, without the exploit DC is still useful, why ban either if only the exploit is an issue?

I don't trust people, and I don't trust them to listen to outside rules. If there's only rule against doing something specific, how will I stop them in the middle of a match? Can't pause in both the standard ruleset and in local play in general. If someone were to pick a banned move, I'd be able to do something before the match starts. It's just that much easier to handle if the move were simply gone.

Also, another scenario: MKDS's snaking. What's the difference between snaking and just getting an extra boost on a turn? There isn't. Banning snaking is impossible. It's like banning camping in shooters. You just end up with everybody set at your arbitrary limit.

 

[F@lc0-san]

My only complaint with them is that unlocking them is a freaking nightmare. Even with the Home screen exploit.

For the rest, they seem very interesting as they open up more options for certain characters.
Hell, Palutena is unplayable in her normal state in my eyes.

The reason why custom builds are usually banned in other fighting games is because you can string together some OP combinations. Tekken(I forgot wich one) has the option to build your own custom Combot. The problem is that he borrows moves from other fighters. This way he can pick the best moves of every(or most anyway) fighter and string them together.

it doesn't seem to be the case here. I fail to see how Falcon's Lightning Falcon Kick will make him overpowered, but I guess that's just me

 

[Scala]

Have we considered playing with the default moveset and later on establishing specific official custom movesets for particular characters sort of as a psuedo balance patch

 

[Kef]

Have we considered playing with the default moveset and later on establishing specific official custom movesets for particular characters sort of as a psuedo balance patch

That would take the whole joy of using custom moves in the first place. Players would not be able to adapt in different matchups nor would they be able to chose that customs they truly want to use (personal preference).

 

[Rakath]

I don't trust people

Fun fact: You don't have to. See, there's this thing where people outside of the game can watch, and always save a replay during a tournament. So that whatever 'arbitrary rules' are followed, and those that don't follow them are DQ'd for it. If something like infinite Dimension Cape is illegal, and you show the TO your opponent IDCing, they get booted and you move on.

Because, in sports, we trust our players to play fair. This is why we have ref cameras at every yard line in football, in video quality to see the individual fake blades of grass on the turf. This is why refs watch replays to see every detail, because trust is irrelevant in tournaments.

Online tournaments... well, that we can't help with, except for having a Purin-ref console in those too. Which if you're that paranoid and distrusting you can insist on, I guess.

 

[TimeSmash]

It's much easier to ban a move then to ban a way to use a move.



I don't trust people, and I don't trust them to listen to outside rules. If there's only rule against doing something specific, how will I stop them in the middle of a match? Can't pause in both the standard ruleset and in local play in general. If someone were to pick a banned move, I'd be able to do something before the match starts. It's just that much easier to handle if the move were simply gone.

Also, another scenario: MKDS's snaking. What's the difference between snaking and just getting an extra boost on a turn? There isn't. Banning snaking is impossible. It's like banning camping in shooters. You just end up with everybody set at your arbitrary limit.

But things like IDC are banned and aren't used. If someone's using something like that or some weird stalling thing in Melee like Peach Bomber stalling or Rising Pound stalling, you can do something about it. Both Dimensional Cape and Rising Pound on their own have their uses, hell even Peach Bomber has it uses in Melee, albeit rare.

Aside from that though, other people have stated pretty much that we'll see more typical movesets used than a wide variety (which, variety is a weak argument in the first place, that's like complaining getting hit by an aerial and trying to claim you didn't know about it.) Once you see the move used, you should know how to adapt to it, or at least have a general mindset as to how you're going to deal with things like it. There are plenty of recovery moves where the change is literally "go higher, do less or no damage." You don't need a specific strategy for every move like that.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Every character has 36 possible combinations.

This is not true at all. There are waaaaay more than 36 possible combinations.

There are 3 per each special slot, counting the default. Then you can combine each of the 3 among 4 slots: that's 3^4.

Yeah, it's 3 to the power of 4 = 3*3*3*3 = 81 possible combinations of special movesets, including the default one.

Take a look at the following table for proof. The numbers are for the respective special attacks, attack 1 (default), attack 2, attack 3. All of the combinations are taken into account here, including the default one and mixing with the default attack:

Spoiler

Now, if we take into account that there are 48 fighters (not counting the Miis), that's a total of 81 * 48 = 3888 possible combinations of movesets to play around with.

I personally don't have a problem with it. These are just numbers. And you're right: there might be special moves that will be considered useless. But if we're going to discuss special moves and their variations, we need to keep in mind the amount of possible combinations, because that's how much work we'll have ahead of us for a metagame with custom moves allowed.

Each character has 81 special move combinations.

 

[Chiroz]

This is not true at all. There are waaaaay more than 36 possible combinations.

There are 3 per each special slot, counting the default. Then you can combine each of the 3 among 4 slots: that's 3^4.

Yeah, it's 3 to the power of 4 = 3*3*3*3 = 81 possible combinations of special movesets, including the default one.

Take a look at the following table for proof. The numbers are for the respective special attacks, attack 1 (default), attack 2, attack 3. All of the combinations are taken into account here, including the default one and mixing with the default attack:

Spoiler

Now, if we take into account that there are 48 fighters (not counting the Miis), that's a total of 81 * 48 = 3888 possible combinations of movesets to play around with.

I personally don't have a problem with it. These are just numbers. And you're right: there might be special moves that will be considered useless. But if we're going to discuss special moves and their variations, we need to keep in mind the amount of possible combinations, because that's how much work we'll have ahead of us for a metagame with custom moves allowed.

Each character has 81 special move combinations.

I don't know why I wrote 36 or why if one move is useless it was suddenly 12 (when it should have been 24 by my own numbers, and even that would have been wrong). I don't remember when I wrote that but I'll say I was drunk and sleepy to excuse myself even if it wasn't true .

Still I do think once we compare the effectiveness of specials the actual options will be reduced to much less as we already know of many specials which are just not useful at all for almost every character.

 

[LancerStaff]

But things like IDC are banned and aren't used. If someone's using something like that or some weird stalling thing in Melee like Peach Bomber stalling or Rising Pound stalling, you can do something about it. Both Dimensional Cape and Rising Pound on their own have their uses, hell even Peach Bomber has it uses in Melee, albeit rare.

But why even allow it at all? The only reason MK and Peach could still potentially do it is because there's no other option besides banning the character. Now we have a way that doesn't completely mess a person up.

 

[Judo777]

My question is (especially with the WiiU version), how will we actually play with custom moves? Are the Wiis going to have to have every characters custom moves, so that everyone has all of their abilities? Or are players gonna have to use external hardware to get the data on the Wii? Not even sure if thats a thing.

 

[TimeSmash]

My question is (especially with the WiiU version), how will we actually play with custom moves? Are the Wiis going to have to have every characters custom moves, so that everyone has all of their abilities? Or are players gonna have to use external hardware to get the data on the Wii? Not even sure if thats a thing.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. In the 3DS version you can have a custom moveset saved and able to be selected from the CSS screen. I'd imagine it work like that.

But why even allow it at all? The only reason MK and Peach could still potentially do it is because there's no other option besides banning the character. Now we have a way that doesn't completely mess a person up.

IDC and Peach Bomber stalling aren't allowed though. If they do it, they should get called out on it. (Albeit harder to do with a non-replay version of something like Melee, and replaying a match does waste a little time, so it's not a perfect solution.)

 

[Thinkaman]

My question is (especially with the WiiU version), how will we actually play with custom moves? Are the Wiis going to have to have every characters custom moves, so that everyone has all of their abilities? Or are players gonna have to use external hardware to get the data on the Wii? Not even sure if thats a thing.

It is strongly implied that we can transfer data/unlocks from 3DS to WiiU. We'll see the exact details in the coming weeks.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The Marth forums have pretty much closed in on his optimum loadout. Guys we wont need to memorize a bunch of set ups. Just the best ones that people will use over default.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Even if there are optimum loadouts for many characters, using an ostensibly worse move may often yield moderate advantages. There may be certain combos that are only possible using moves that would otherwise not be chosen. At least, I hope this is the case.

 

[popsofctown]

Even if there are optimum loadouts for many characters, using an ostensibly worse move may often yield moderate advantages. There may be certain combos that are only possible using moves that would otherwise not be chosen. At least, I hope this is the case.

Yeah.. less so for Marth than for the other guys though

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just got done playing in tourney with customs legal. it was AWESOME. I lost early and I'm not gonna lie it was because my opponents used moves that I lack understanding of. But whos fault is that? Mine. Who needs to level up? Me. The moves I got hit with werent broken and after doing friendly matches with the people that beat me I was able to adapt and beat them consistently.

For the record NAKAT complained about DK's whirlwind up b in his matches in grand finals but he STILL won. He took his time. Didnt run into DK's attacks prematurely and played patiently. Thats how you deal with moves you have never seen. You learn on the fly and take things cautiously.

 

[TimeSmash]

Just got done playing in tourney with customs legal. it was AWESOME. I lost early and I'm not gonna lie it was because my opponents used moves that I lack understanding of. But whos fault is that? Mine. Who needs to level up? Me. The moves I got hit with werent broken and after doing friendly matches with the people that beat me I was able to adapt and beat them consistently.

For the record NAKAT complained about DK's whirlwind up b in his matches in grand finals but he STILL won. He took his time. Didnt run into DK's attacks prematurely and played patiently. Thats how you deal with moves you have never seen. You learn on the fly and take things cautiously.

Pretty much this. Even if you have little experience with the move, you still know of moves/actions like it. This is where implicit memory comes in (which is more on methods, like being able to tie your shoes or SHFFL or space moves without really thinking) and probably some improvisation, which arugably is present in Smash at every waking moment.

 

[Shaya]

Characters will have an optimal load, but will still have variations for match ups or style.
Dash Breaker is definitely the best of the three, but Shieldbreaker is still giving you shield breaks into guaranteed kill moves. There will always be a merit in choosing the alternative.

Dancing Blade and Counter really only differ on how "easy" you'd like them to be. Iai Counter is most efficient for our "best chance of counter" scenarios (off stage recovering, although off stage gimping with counter is a thing you can lose out on switching too).

Dolphin Slash's variations are also all about style, although Dolphin Jump (no hitbox, massive height) will on percentages be giving us more opportunities to recover and to go off stage to gimp. Horizontal Dolphin Slash can be combo'd into by most of Marth's moveset, but is rather finicky and most opponent's can vector upwards to avoid those follow ups; otherwise guts his recovery. Regular Dolphin Slash is still a Dragon Punch with invincibility that can be done out of shield, but in general at this time, using normals out of shield drops is safer/more reliable.

So yeah, I'd say by default Dash Breaker/Regular Dancing Blade/Regular Counter/Dolphin Jump will be the goto. Shieldbreaker can still be brought in and will require a significant enemy adaption. Counter and DS are really preferential.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

i dont understand the debate. innocent until proven guilty.
We have yet to see customs cause a problem so they should be allowed until they show an issue.
the variety they bring or dont bring doesnt even matter.

 

[JosekiTheGreat]

Also just got 3rd in a tourney yesterday in NM with custom moves on. I love custom moves, they give everyone a tiny bit of "hidden information" to adapt to, and they spice up a lot of irrelevant moves into usable and viable moves. My main wouldn't have a downb in competitive if it wasn't for customs, which makes me really happy.

Also, some of the customs are just straight up terrible (many of them are) so it doesn't increase the pool of possibilities very much in an established metagame imo.

 

[Thinkaman]

An example of a mixup to optimality:

Ganon down-b 2 is really good since it jumps over projectiles, except he might use 1 instead for Yoshi.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Some things would be really awesome, like Ganondorf's Sword B and Ike's diagonal Aether. But for practical purposes, I hope there's a way to let Palutena have access to her custom moves in tournaments. Autoreticle just sucks. Warp, Counter, and Reflect are fine, but if I could use Explosive Flame as a better keep-away game, I would.

 

[Shaya]

Auto reticle isn't a bad move IMO, it's just that the rest of her default moveset doesn't demand respect or scary means of abusing the "pressure" the move can produce.
Speed Boost on Palutena is probably one of the best moves in the game. When you have to be careful/safe to avoid dash attack, dash grab or some other sonic-speed approach, AR suddenly becomes a nuisance as approaching from the air is suddenly significantly less ideal.
Just a tidbit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm just super excited for custom moves and the potential depth they present.

Copied and pasted straight from the Marth boards. I want people to see the thought that goes into a custom loadout whether it be covering an inherent weakness your character has, countering picking with certain moves, or just bringing their metagame together with some tweaks here and there.

"My load out was as follows

Standard Special 3 - Dashing Assault
Side Special 1 - Dancing Blade
Up Special 3 - Dolphin Jump
Down Special 3 - Iai Counter

This set-up has one purpose. To solidify Marths ground dominance thus allowing him to control the pace of the match and slow the game down to a point where he can dictate the flow while pushing his opponent off stage. Once there, Dolphin Jump allows for hyper aggressive edge guarding plays which either lead to a stock loss or at minimum Marth is able to lay on huge damage to his opponent before they can make it back.

Dashing Assault covers huge distance and is transcendent so it will beat basically any head on attack. At worst it will trade, which isnt a big deal, since usually you are just trading with some kind of poke. It also greatly aids Marth in his horizontal recovery and for getting out of air traps. Dancing Blade is your main punish tool OoS and for your traps. Dolphin Jump lets Marth go DEEP for those delicious edgeguards and of course he is much better with his vertical recovery. Iai counter is strong not only for anti edge guarding but also vs projectiles as Marth steps forward during the swing and the recovery is quick. This forces projectile users to give pause and have a little more respect. It also helps his recovery when countering an attack when recovering from the stage.

This set-up has strong synergy and really brings his ground game together while also aiding his recovery options, not to mention making him better at escaping trap situations. Effortless Blade may be better with this set-up as it will aid in the goal of pushing towards the ledge/off the stage.

Weaknesses of this set-up

Dolphin Jump lacks a hitbox so Marth losses a strong defensive option with Dolphin Slash. Arguably THE best defensive option in the game. So you are trading stage control and ultimate edge guarding potential for the loss in that defensive option. Iai Counter has a small counter window. You need to be perfect and thus its better suited for use against projectiles and obvious edge guard attempts. Dashing Assault is weaker than Shield Breaker. It's damage really isn't scary.

So this set-up is not OP, though I do feel it makes Marth better than his default and honestly depending on the match, you can alter his set-up to suit you. Vs Little Mac you don't need Dolphin Jump that's for sure but vs Sonic I think you will want to keep it.

Dashing Assault is really the key component here and at one point almost everyone at the venue was watching my first tourney match. Everyone was in awe at how much Dashing Assault forced you to be respectful. I lost early, but that didn't matter. I don't think there was anyone in the crowd that wasn't impressed by this move."

Now as Shaya said his default optimization is probably

3 - Dashing Assault
1 - Dancing Blade
3 - Dolphin Jump
1 - Counter

I ran this in friendlies vs non-projectile characters and it performed well.

Now we just need a bad ass name or a Fire Emblem reference. Preferably both. Yes naming optimal load outs is definitely a thing.

 

[S2]

Of course, "best" builds will probably come out for different characters. Although I think this will depend a lot on individual characters since the variation on custom moves for some is much more drastic than others.

Even supposing that 1 or 2 "best" builds is generally accepted for each character, simply having access to alternate move options is going to be helpful in specific matchups.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Now we just need a bad *** name or a Fire Emblem reference. Preferably both. Yes naming optimal load outs is definitely a thing.

"Adept Vantage", because I'm trying hard to be a FE nerd. And because uh, your set threatens to strike first and repeatedly.