COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Swordplay]

we Are Working On Getting Rid Of The Momentum Based Recoveries Which Should Help Out Link, Falcon, Ganon, And Bowser (at The Very Least)

And I Would Like To See Ganon Forward B Not Go Into Fall Special So He Can Use It In His Recovery Like Diddy Can.

That Would Be Awesome



Seriously though, I could see giving it to ganon could help. He does REALLY need it. Falcon is iffy though. I'm not sure but I guess if we do give it to ganon we should give it to falcon.

 

[CloneHat]

Falcon's recovery is fine, coupled with the new down B code, side B not counting as a recovery would make him amazing, and he is already almost perfectly balanced IMO.

I don't think it's necissary to do this to Ganondorf, his recovery is not supposed to be that good, he makes up with other things. If you want a better recovery, I think we should make his side or up B go farther, not implement something that will require additional balancing.

 

[alvicala]

hey you were talking about possible buffs for ness
would it be possible to make his Dair come out quicker?
i think this would be better than just making him run faster IMO

Ness´ Dair is a very powerful move, a good combo starter and a regular meteor. It also has excellent priority.

Speeding it up would make it OP IMO.

 

[twiblets]

or how about the old djc?
i know its more effort than just tweaking a value to make ness run faster but its more suited to ness's individual playstyle in the previous games. other characters have gotten individual attention, why not ness?

 

[MK26]

The down-b fix is exactly the kind of thing the vBrawl fanboys will scream after yelling MELEE TWO-POINT-OH BIATCH.

It's an absolutely useless code that simply brings back nostalgia and contributes to the power creep. You've said all along that we bring back concepts that were in both 64 and Melee, but I dont remember falcon being able to jump after a down-b in the original...

It was a mistake, accidentally added in Melee and removed in Brawl. This was one thing Sakurai got right.

(If you can splice the code to only affect momentum on the up-b, please do)

 

[Blank Mauser]

The down-b fix is exactly the kind of thing the vBrawl fanboys will scream after yelling MELEE TWO-POINT-OH BIATCH.

It's an absolutely useless code that simply brings back nostalgia and contributes to the power creep. You've said all along that we bring back concepts that were in both 64 and Melee, but I dont remember falcon being able to jump after a down-b in the original...

It was a mistake, accidentally added in Melee and removed in Brawl. This was one thing Sakurai got right.

(If you can splice the code to only affect momentum on the up-b, please do)

I don't think helping Falcon's recovery contributes to power creep at all. And if we're going to do it by bringing back a concept from Melee I don't think its that bad. Can't really ignore a good fix just because there are comparisons to Melee, nor because it wasn't intended. Otherwise we might be fixing tons of other things within the game and Dash Canceling wouldn't be in.

 

[EtherealKing]

The down-b fix is exactly the kind of thing the vBrawl fanboys will scream after yelling MELEE TWO-POINT-OH BIATCH.

It's an absolutely useless code that simply brings back nostalgia and contributes to the power creep. You've said all along that we bring back concepts that were in both 64 and Melee, but I dont remember falcon being able to jump after a down-b in the original...

It was a mistake, accidentally added in Melee and removed in Brawl. This was one thing Sakurai got right.

(If you can splice the code to only affect momentum on the up-b, please do)

^^This^^. I really don't want second jump out of down b to come back. At the very least if we do end up keeping it for some reason, have it only effect Falcon.

 

[MK26]

I don't think helping Falcon's recovery contributes to power creep at all. And if we're going to do it by bringing back a concept from Melee I don't think its that bad. Can't really ignore a good fix just because there are comparisons to Melee, nor because it wasn't intended. Otherwise we might be fixing tons of other things within the game and Dash Canceling wouldn't be in.

Ive never liked dash canceling...heck by principle i have to be against dashdancing, but i can live with it as it was in the previous two games and is much less trivial than the downb fix or something like nat

And it isnt a concept, its a mistake

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm only for bringing it back if we decided they need a recovery boost. I'd argue Ganondorf could use one, but it isn't necessary. Falcon doesn't need it for sure though.

 

[Eaode]

Please don't argue "Mistake" against bringing something into the game, we all know how much water that holds.

That being said, Giving them a second jump back for rocketing themselves downward makes sense to me. Recovery was really the only thing Falcon kick was ever good for, and Wizard's foot was a staple of Ganon's recovery in Melee.

Whether or not to re-implement this function should be determined by an evaluation of the effects it brings, not crying "mistake" or avoiding Melee 2.0 comparisons (if they're looking for excuses to cry melee 2.0 they are probably not too crazy about Brawl+ anyway).

 

[leafgreen386]

The down-b fix is exactly the kind of thing the vBrawl fanboys will scream after yelling MELEE TWO-POINT-OH BIATCH.

To which I ask... So what? I really don't care what some scrub thinks of this game that wasn't even planning on trying it to begin with. If they're crying melee 2.0 over something as simple and stupid as falcon/ganon downB jump resets, they probably wouldn't even play brawl+ regardless of what is or is not included. Is the mechanic from melee? Yes. So what?

 

[kupo15]

And I would like to see Ganon forward B not go into fall special so he can use it in his recovery like Diddy can.

I don't. I'd rather see the down b reset.

To which I ask... So what? I really don't care what some scrub thinks of this game that wasn't even planning on trying it to begin with. If they're crying melee 2.0 over something as simple and stupid as falcon/ganon downB jump resets, they probably wouldn't even play brawl+ regardless of what is or is not included. Is the mechanic from melee? Yes. So what?

This.

 

[GPDP]

I see the main function of this code not as a buff to the recoveries of Ganon and Falcon, but as a way to increase their options out of stage. With this, their recoveries are much less predictable, and gives them more ways to approach the stage while avoiding edge guarding.

 

[Magus420]

Falcon punch should be a recovery move again, lol.

Double jump->falcon punch->falcon kick->double jump->falcon punch.

 

[kupo15]

I see the main function of this code not as a buff to the recoveries of Ganon and Falcon, but as a way to increase their options out of stage. With this, their recoveries are much less predictable, and gives them more ways to approach the stage while avoiding edge guarding.

Exactly. It doesn't really boost their recovery that much and it is punishable during the kick. Here is my philosophy on characters and this game.

If you take away everything that is unique and make the characters interesting, you have a boring game that you can only do things only so many ways and your limited in being able to show off. This is important to have a game where you can vary up your tactics instead of having to rely on the ones that work the most. Its what makes smash bros exciting because you make your own combos and can be creative.

This, I feel, is the main difference between melee (don't shout for heaven's sake!!!) and brawl As long as something does not break the character but makes them more interesting, (reverse knee, down b resets off the top of my head) I don't see any reason not to include them. I hate the "its unnecessary" argument because that doesn't prove anything and in the interest of lasting appeal in a game, these little quirks that allow you to show off and mix things up to achieve the same result you want gives the game its lasting appeal.

 

[Sterowent]

i don't believe falcon needs the jump. his recovery's much better this time around.

but for ganon, any bit can help. i haven't tried the backwards reverse neutral B for momentum in B+, so perhaps that's still reliable, if very easily gimpable, but his recovery's terrible. he's not a fast character in the air, so giving back his second jump, which mostly blows anyway, wouldn't be broken. it'd merely be somewhat akin to how link's upB was extended a bit.

his recovery would still be terrible, but it would be Ike 'terrible' instead.

Edit: concerning 'variety' for characters. this is a great thing. free-form playstyles and comboing is what makes smash so great! however, always taking into account that variety in too many situations can spell disaster if this variety isn't confined to very specific situations.

in this case, the two best situations to describe giving back their jumps would be off stage downB gimping and recovering from a very horizontal zone. in ganon's case, the first option might be a dangerous one to decide upon, but, in fact, he can already do his downB offstage and recover from what i know of (if i'm wrong, then that'd explain why i never see it.) and if not then this would simply add to his near stage gimping power, which has always been good (Stomp, utilt...kinda, uair). in the end, this variety in gimping power, but his variety was already great there.

as for falcon, this also would add to his own gimp variety, but, more importantly, it would add to his recovery, which i've already said to be good, better than its counterpart in melee. as an alloffensive character, that's heavier than he looks, another option for recovery can approach being too strong. i thought falcon's recovery was Meant to be gimpable? otherwise, why wouldn't his uB be like ganon's shadow shoryuken?

 

[GPDP]

Right. Well, the code ain't working for me. I don't recover the second jump with either Ganon or Falcon.

 

[Blank Mauser]

The whole thing about character variety and giving options is why I want gliding to stay the same.

 

[GPDP]

Alright, I'm gonna try fixing the code per spunit's suggestion on making codes work when using the double gct method.

Edit: The game freezes upon loading the codes. This exact same thing happened when I tried using the "fixed" Multiuse Icarus Wings code. I'm beginning to see a pattern.

 

[MK26]

To which I ask... So what? I really don't care what some scrub thinks of this game that wasn't even planning on trying it to begin with. If they're crying melee 2.0 over something as simple and stupid as falcon/ganon downB jump resets, they probably wouldn't even play brawl+ regardless of what is or is not included. Is the mechanic from melee? Yes. So what?

OK then, let's give Kirby a frame advantage on Kirbycides to allow kirbycide-cancels. It was from Melee. It was obviously a mistake that was fixed in Brawl. So what?

Jump-canceled shines! Let's put those back in! Needle-canceling too! So what? Melee is obviously a perfect game, so every little quirky action that may or may not have been deliberate should be ported into Brawl, regardless of how it will upset character balance. Because we can fix that! Because we have the line space to!

It's a stupid little mechanic that was never needed in the first place. Maybe we should give every character their jumps back after their stall-then-fall attacks, eh? Why stop at Falcon and Ganon? Kirby can use the rock and get a fresh set of 5 jumps! It's brilliant! Toon Link, Zamus, G&W, and God knows who else can use a recovery boost, obviously. Becase everyone needs to be super-powerful with an unstoppable recovery, or at least a half-decent one. nobody should be held back by their recovery, becase that's mean.

WE CAN, THEREFORE WE MUST!!!

whew.
/rant

 

[Eaode]

*sigh*

slippery slope? unfitting examples? no real arguments on the merit of such a mechanic and instead just labeling it?

Yeah, it's all there.

 

[MK26]

It's a random buff given to characters that either dont need it or shouldnt have it. There's your lack of merit.

EDIT: tl;dr: im against adding this code

 

[leafgreen386]

OK then, let's give Kirby a frame advantage on Kirbycides to allow kirbycide-cancels. It was from Melee. It was obviously a mistake that was fixed in Brawl. So what?

Jump-canceled shines! Let's put those back in! Needle-canceling too! So what? Melee is obviously a perfect game, so every little quirky action that may or may not have been deliberate should be ported into Brawl, regardless of how it will upset character balance. Because we can fix that! Because we have the line space to!

It's a stupid little mechanic that was never needed in the first place. Maybe we should give every character their jumps back after their stall-then-fall attacks, eh? Why stop at Falcon and Ganon? Kirby can use the rock and get a fresh set of 5 jumps! It's brilliant! Toon Link, Zamus, G&W, and God knows who else can use a recovery boost, obviously. Becase everyone needs to be super-powerful with an unstoppable recovery, or at least a half-decent one. nobody should be held back by their recovery, becase that's mean.

WE CAN, THEREFORE WE MUST!!!

whew.
/rant

Too bad none of that has anything to do with what I said.

If I felt like it, I could stop right there, but since you obviously didn't get my argument, I guess I'll elaborate. Basically, it boils down to this:

I used the argument of "Just because there's a mechanic that someone could pick on for making "melee 2.0" doesn't mean we shouldn't include it." You replied by saying "We shouldn't include every little thing from melee regardless of what it does to the game's balance." Notice how that reply doesn't answer my argument at all? Your whole post is just one big straw-man.

 

[kupo15]

Alright, I'm gonna try fixing the code per spunit's suggestion on making codes work when using the double gct method.

Edit: The game freezes upon loading the codes. This exact same thing happened when I tried using the "fixed" Multiuse Icarus Wings code. I'm beginning to see a pattern.

That is why I am using snapshots

 

[Sterowent]

he's wondering why it's being considered. and so am i, for the most part.

there must be other ways of helping their recoveries. it's not that i'm against adding melee abilities, it's that when was it discussed that falcon needed a more varied recovery? isn't it supposed to be gimpable? isn't that the nature of his upB? it has no hitboxes in itself, just the grapple.

and his momentum in air is great. and he's got his sideB for variety, which is better in brawl.
why does falcon need a better recovery? and why is it that the melee tactic was chosen to aide in this venture?

maybe i strayed away from what MK26 was thinking, but these are legitimate questions on my part at the least.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Honestly I don't think Falcon's recovery should be buffed. Falcon's recover is bad that's true. But...is this a problem? Does it make Falcon a bad character? Or is it just a weakness just like many other character specific weaknesses? I think it's most definitely the latter.

Ganondorf on the other hand is a bad character as of late. I can think of other ways to buff him, but I think buffing his recovery would be a reasonable fix too (at least it makes his recovery different from Falcon lol)

 

[Greenpoe]

Exactly. It doesn't really boost their recovery that much and it is punishable during the kick. Here is my philosophy on characters and this game.

If you take away everything that is unique and make the characters interesting, you have a boring game that you can only do things only so many ways and your limited in being able to show off. This is important to have a game where you can vary up your tactics instead of having to rely on the ones that work the most. Its what makes smash bros exciting because you make your own combos and can be creative.

This, I feel, is the main difference between melee (don't shout for heaven's sake!!!) and brawl As long as something does not break the character but makes them more interesting, (reverse knee, down b resets off the top of my head) I don't see any reason not to include them. I hate the "its unnecessary" argument because that doesn't prove anything and in the interest of lasting appeal in a game, these little quirks that allow you to show off and mix things up to achieve the same result you want gives the game its lasting appeal.

This. You might call it artificially adding to metagame, but more depth=good, as long as it remains balanced. More flavorful characters=good.

 

[Shell]

I'm at my parent's house and thus can't test Ganon's "new" wizkick recovery, so could someone tell me if it is actually advantageous to use over his natural brawl float?

In terms of distance gained, of course, (recovering with a move that spikes is always useful and befitting of a BAMF).

I fear that with the current Wizkick angle it still won't be terribly useful unless you're near the stage anyways, but I hope I'm wrong. Thanks!

 

[Dantarion]

I see Dark Sonic's point.

On one hand, this gives back a nifty trick we had in melee, which lets us mix up falcon and ganons recovery.
On the other hand, do falcon and ganon need this nifty trick anymore?

I am for it, simply because its not THAT much better that just recovering normally, and it adds complexity without being a straight all around buff

 

[Phantom1987]

I think that adding something that was in melee is not a bad thing. The only reason to not add them is because people that are against melee and in favor of brawl sees these changes and think of them as treason.. I think that adding the best of each game is a good idea to find the perfect smash game. The problem I see is that the codes that comes from "melee physics" are aproved much easily than any other physic suggested. For example, if I say "fast fall zairs" there will be many people that will reject it saying things as "why? It is perfect as it is right now, alouding it would make zairs too broken" but if I say "fast fall specials!! I want to spam falco lazors D:" it will be aproved much easily. The problem is that, because we have not try them before, things sound much more broken that what they are really and we negate them even before trying them. I think that we could make a much more funnier and competitive game if we start thinking without prejudges. We have to try things before giving our opinion because, if not, we will end making just a "brawl+melee" and not a "brawl+".

 

[kupo15]

well the fast fall zairs seem much more threatening than projectiles. They knock you down immediately and chars like samus have a huge zair that comes out fast and are auto canceled which would make approaching really difficult. And actually, fast fall zairs were in melee, its just that the way zairs work now is a little worrying me but projectiles stayed the same for the most part and in fact, falco's is worse I think.

 

[shanus]

Im for ganon getting the recovery buff, but as I mentioned, I rarely EVER die as falcon from an edgehog unless its against ROB or a projectile gimp from below. He has a massive warp distance on upB and I dont see him needing this mix up.

Im all for ganon getting it, though. His recovery blows in comparison.


But i wont complain if Falcon gets it ;-)

 

[Spoon]

I think what Captain Falcon needs is a final smash initiated whenever he taunts.

XD

 

[abcool]

The only thing i got a problem with is that codes that are in the OP, which have been discussed aren't the ones being made. I don't have a problem, but i think that is selfish. I've checked everyday for codes to test and discuss with my character, yet i seeing everyone else smiling BUT me. You say the laser codes is last priority....well the falcon and ganon buffs haven't even been discussed *sigh* anyway back to lurking another month WAITING!!!!! I won't be selfish, but kupo give me a date already i am tired of reading discussions on characters i don't use.

 

[Spoon]

Anyone gonna make the title screen say Brawl+? =D

Important change. DISCUSS

 

[CyberGlitch]

Ok, enough of the slippery slope arguments...and enough of the "OMG, it was in Melee so we can't have it!!!" These both ignore and real lines of reasoning concerning these Ganon and Falcon modifications.

First off, as for the buffs to recoveries these guys need, while some seem to to think these guys don't need buffs (even after admitting they have poor recovery), I think it's very clear that when a fix to their momentum based recoveries is figured out, it should be implemented--same with Link. When arguing whether they need buffs or not we should consider this buff to come. Will they need another buff to recovery after momentum is fixed?

I think that Ganondorf just might...but you can't implement this for him without doing it for Falcon too...that would just be confusing.

But really, I do understand the argument that asks "why just Falcon and Ganon ,why shouldn't all downward launching attacks get a jump back afterwards." So what makes their down B's special? Is it the long cooldown time for the attack in the air that prevents them from effectively using it off the edge without an added jump, when compared to other's abilities to use it off the edge. Is it other's better recoveries that make their down launching attacks more useful off the edge? Maybe a more appropriate buff to the move would be to reduce its cooldown time in the air, but don't give a jump back after it's used.


If the extra jump is implemented, I know a lot of people who will be very happy. I'm not really opposed to the buff, but I thought it was a balanced mechanic in Melee, a game without many downward launching attacks.

 

[CountKaiser]

We REALLY need that no-auto fastfall dair code.

 

[camelot]

Stuff

Think about Sonic's d-air, would getting an extra jump after that be too good? Or would it be a nice buff for him? (I don't know, I don't really play as Sonic, but I know he can already make it back to the stage pretty easily if you use it off-stage)

 

[iSpiN]

Think about Sonic's d-air, would getting an extra jump after that be too good? Or would it be a nice buff for him? (I don't know, I don't really play as Sonic, but I know he can already make it back to the stage pretty easily if you use it off-stage)

Don't buff the Dair offstage, that would be OP.

 

[kupo15]

We REALLY need that no-auto fastfall dair code.

I really want this.

Think about Sonic's d-air, would getting an extra jump after that be too good? Or would it be a nice buff for him? (I don't know, I don't really play as Sonic, but I know he can already make it back to the stage pretty easily if you use it off-stage)

I think the applications are different and besides, falcon/ganon jump resets are "special" moves, not simply just aerial attacks. By this logic, I wouldn't mind lucario getting it after an aerial counter.

Im for ganon getting the recovery buff, but as I mentioned, I rarely EVER die as falcon from an edgehog unless its against ROB or a projectile gimp from below. He has a massive warp distance on upB and I dont see him needing this mix up.

Im all for ganon getting it, though. His recovery blows in comparison.


But i wont complain if Falcon gets it ;-)

You won't complain if he gets it yet I see you argue that he shouldn't? Anyway that's not important, we should be reducing the ledge grab range anyway which makes it ok.

Ok, enough of the slippery slope arguments...and enough of the "OMG, it was in Melee so we can't have it!!!" These both ignore and real lines of reasoning concerning these Ganon and Falcon modifications.

First off, as for the buffs to recoveries these guys need, while some seem to to think these guys don't need buffs (even after admitting they have poor recovery), I think it's very clear that when a fix to their momentum based recoveries is figured out, it should be implemented--same with Link. When arguing whether they need buffs or not we should consider this buff to come. Will they need another buff to recovery after momentum is fixed?

I think that Ganondorf just might...but you can't implement this for him without doing it for Falcon too...that would just be confusing.

But really, I do understand the argument that asks "why just Falcon and Ganon ,why shouldn't all downward launching attacks get a jump back afterwards." So what makes their down B's special? Is it the long cooldown time for the attack in the air that prevents them from effectively using it off the edge without an added jump, when compared to other's abilities to use it off the edge. Is it other's better recoveries that make their down launching attacks more useful off the edge? Maybe a more appropriate buff to the move would be to reduce its cooldown time in the air, but don't give a jump back after it's used.


If the extra jump is implemented, I know a lot of people who will be very happy. I'm not really opposed to the buff, but I thought it was a balanced mechanic in Melee, a game without many downward launching attacks.

This^

Also, its a "special" move like I said earlier. But I already asked pw to include the other momentum based characters.