COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Greenpoe]

Part of the reasoning behind any ledge grab change would be the vertical window from which ledges can be grabbed. These allow certain planking strategies to be very effective,

If planking is an issue, it can be fixed in other ways, like reducing the invincibility frames. You know how you can only regrab 3 times with a tether, then you fall off unless you touch ground? That could be applied to every character (except maybe with 4 or 5).

and mean that very few people have effective dtilt etc. edgeguards. But, as said, we aren't planning on performing such a change at this point in time. Maybe with ledgeteching.

A lot of characters who this would affect already need to time their recoveries well to grab the ledge (Falcon, Gannon, ROB, Pit, etc.).

 

[Dark Sonic]

If planking is an issue, it can be fixed in other ways, like reducing the invincibility frames. You know how you can only regrab 3 times with a tether, then you fall off unless you touch ground? That could be applied to every character (except maybe with 4 or 5).

The ledge invincibility is already very small as it is. Lowering it would just make ledgetraps even more potent since you' have no time to actually get off of the ledge.

And making you unable to regrab after 3 grabs is a terrible idea as well. Once again, ledgetraps becoming even more dangerous (buffing characters like Marth) because they know that if they manage to hit you off the ledge 2 times then they will either

1. get a free attack because you're only safe options are gettup and roll, as anything else runs the risk of being intercepted and you'd be unable to grab the ledge again
or
2. You will purposfully not sweetspot your recovery and try to land on the stage just to refresh your ledge grabs.

Very, very bad idea.

 

[kupo15]

No.

Wrong.

And what's the point of changing the ledge grab range? I see no competitive advantage of changing it, at all. This isn't making the game better, it's a preference.

No competitive value?

I side with this.

Seriously?

I want to be able to grab an edge behind me.

You still will

I agree. Ledge teching could potentially be some nice icing on the cake, but don't change the ledge grab range.

Huh?

How does a forgiving window that we have now help competition at all? Its mostly with the downward grab range but an easy isn't competitive because you don't have to be that good to grab it. You should have to work a little for your edge instead of it grabbing you. This is of course after ledge teching is made (hopefully)

Cause this adds competitive value...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMbgxD5l8xQ

 

[goodoldganon]

How does a forgiving window that we have now help competition at all? Its mostly with the downward grab range but an easy isn't competitive because you don't have to be that good to grab it. You should have to work a little for your edge instead of it grabbing you. This is of course after ledge teching is made (hopefully)

We discussed this in the Back Room and you know me stance. If we do adopt this change can we agree that character recoveries will be buffed? Captain Falcon should be able to recover from as far away as before. You also realize this is a pretty sizeable buff to characters that don't need it. (Marth will be all sorts of awesome with this change)

 

[kupo15]

We discussed this in the Back Room and you know me stance. If we do adopt this change can we agree that character recoveries will be buffed? Captain Falcon should be able to recover from as far away as before. You also realize this is a pretty sizeable buff to characters that don't need it. (Marth will be all sorts of awesome with this change)

can we agree that character recoveries are buffed? Wait a minute, who is arguing for the falcon/ganon down b resets again?

Marth is also subject to the same problems when he is off the stage. If you are worried about that, then we really need to remove the up b auto sweetspot when hits connect. We should remove it anyway. You already have a side be auto sweet spot which I'm not too fond of but w/e for now

 

[StarcraftLedZeppelin]

Can some one help me with getting a brawl +4.0 gct file, I've already got HBC and gecko os. I think my version of brawl is pal I don't know really, I bought it in Seattle.

 

[CountKaiser]

If you bought it in the US, then it should be the US version. If so, go to the brawlplussery thread and follow the instructions there.

 

[abcool]

I want to bring up the NAT code once again. I think the code should be implemented because if ur at low percents and ur a fast faller Ur screwed by the ledge.

EX. I am a fox fighting a marth. Most marth's usually gimp by the ledge. If you get shield grabbed and dthrown, first thing you wanna do is tech in the front of the marth to avoid being gimped right?!. Well because of the AD in tumble, you'll buffer an AD by the ledge of the stage...plus ur already carrying the force from the downthrow...to keep it simple you'll AD to ur death because at eariler percents you'll automatically buffer an AD instead of tech the ground.


You'll only exp this senerio at low percents because of the lack of hitstun during that percentage..I got gimped twice from that. I know most of you would be like *why didn't you recover* well because i am a ff and was on luigi's mansion deadlands..I can't recover, the AD last to long to attempt anything. Therefore i will be implementing the code.

I can only warn you guys..feel free to get that gimp and john afterwards, but that cost my team a set and i ain't allowing that to happen again.

EDIT: btw this is the 2 second time i complained about this happening shanus made it look like a coincidence the first time, well buddy it ain't!!! lmao That is the gayiest gimp ever and the game doesn't even count it as a SD. a downthrow at 5-10% i'm dead wtf!!

 

[Starscream]

Don't know if this has been mentioned already but the camera codes make a couple stages unplayable. Namely Mushroomy Kingdom, Rumble Falls, Mario Bros, and Flat Zone 2. They end up always zoomed in to the point of not being able to see anything. I'm sure this is because these stages normally have fixed cameras. They aren't competitively viable anyways so it's not a huge issue but having every level being functional is preferred. Any chance this will be fixed? I love the more dynamic camera.

 

[kupo15]

I want to bring up the NAT code once again. I think the code should be implemented because if ur at low percents and ur a fast faller Ur screwed by the ledge.

EX. I am a fox fighting a marth. Most marth's usually gimp by the ledge. If you get shield grabbed and dthrown, first thing you wanna do is tech in the front of the marth to avoid being gimped right?!. Well because of the AD in tumble, you'll buffer an AD by the ledge of the stage...plus ur already carrying the force from the downthrow...to keep it simple you'll AD to ur death because at eariler percents you'll automatically buffer an AD instead of tech the ground.


You'll only exp this senerio at low percents because of the lack of hitstun during that percentage..I got gimped twice from that. I know most of you would be like *why didn't you recover* well because i am a ff and was on luigi's mansion deadlands..I can't recover, the AD last to long to attempt anything. Therefore i will be implementing the code.

I can only warn you guys..feel free to get that gimp and john afterwards, but that cost my team a set and i ain't allowing that to happen again.

EDIT: btw this is the 2 second time i complained about this happening shanus made it look like a coincidence the first time, well buddy it ain't!!! lmao That is the gayiest gimp ever and the game doesn't even count it as a SD. a downthrow at 5-10% i'm dead wtf!!

I think it should be reconsidered. I actually talk to people who don't like the code and explain it to them and they understand and agree with me. Swordplay for example was straight up against it until last night when I convinced him otherwise. He now understands the concept and agrees that it should be in. There are several people who say they don't like it but are willing to give it a try and just me explaining it has helped a lot which I think was why people didn't like it. But more and more people I run into in IRC and even in the PM agree with me after I explain it. I think we need to do this when we reinstate it. Having people try my altered set also helps me find people who don't like it so I can talk with them about it.

Not only that, but many frame speed changes are unneccessary if you have this code in place. The interest is there and that code shouldn't be lost forever. Just because people had a bad first impression because they didn't understand doesn't mean we should give up completely especially with the success I have had converting people who at first didn't like it. You just need to spend time adjusting and then it makes the game much tighter.

 

[CloneHat]

I want to bring up the NAT code once again. I think the code should be implemented because if ur at low percents and ur a fast faller Ur screwed by the ledge.

EX. I am a fox fighting a marth. Most marth's usually gimp by the ledge. If you get shield grabbed and dthrown, first thing you wanna do is tech in the front of the marth to avoid being gimped right?!. Well because of the AD in tumble, you'll buffer an AD by the ledge of the stage...plus ur already carrying the force from the downthrow...to keep it simple you'll AD to ur death because at eariler percents you'll automatically buffer an AD instead of tech the ground.


You'll only exp this senerio at low percents because of the lack of hitstun during that percentage..I got gimped twice from that. I know most of you would be like *why didn't you recover* well because i am a ff and was on luigi's mansion deadlands..I can't recover, the AD last to long to attempt anything. Therefore i will be implementing the code.

I can only warn you guys..feel free to get that gimp and john afterwards, but that cost my team a set and i ain't allowing that to happen again.

EDIT: btw this is the 2 second time i complained about this happening shanus made it look like a coincidence the first time, well buddy it ain't!!! lmao That is the gayiest gimp ever and the game doesn't even count it as a SD. a downthrow at 5-10% i'm dead wtf!!

So true, as you said the main problem with ADT is that if you're Fox as somebody hits you, it buffers an AD, causing a SD.

 

[goodoldganon]

So true, as you said the main problem with ADT is that if you're Fox as somebody hits you, it buffers an AD, causing a SD.

Play on a lower buffer. I haven't had these problems.

 

[Greenpoe]

Kupo, what kind of frame speed changes become unnecessary with NAT?

 

[abcool]

Play on a lower buffer. I haven't had these problems.

I use a 2 frame buffer, i'm pretty sure it wasn't that. It was because i went into my tumble and tried to tech late...idk i guess i AD str8 out of it, that combined with there ff= death by physics. This is situational, but the 3rd time on my part and that is strike 3 for me, NAT all the way!!!!!

 

[thesage]

@abcool: Any decent Marth would've spiked you afterwards if you had attempted to recover >_>;

 

[leafgreen386]

@abcool: Any decent Marth would've spiked you afterwards if you had attempted to recover >_>;

And that matters for his argument... how? He shouldn't have even been off the stage to begin with, but because it performed the airdodge, he died.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

People are still buffering ADs when they mean to tech? I didn't even have that problem when playing on 10 frames of buffer for kicks. xP

The obvious solution to this problem is simply making fastfallers have more hitstun. =D [/joke]

Given most of my characters aren't fastfallers, so I suppose it's worth looking into if people are having trouble.

 

[thesage]

And that matters for his argument... how? He shouldn't have even been off the stage to begin with, but because it performed the airdodge, he died.

I thought he was arguing for changing when you can airdodge and not if Marth's d-throw can send you offstage.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo, what kind of frame speed changes become unnecessary with NAT?

Ok, for example, wario's dtilt. There has been talk to speed this up for whatever reason, its not good enough for the lag it has afterwards? I think the move is excellent as is. So here is how the NADT makes a speed change unnecessary.

Because the move has enough lag for you to get out of hitstun before he can combo, I think that is why they want it sped up so you can combo from it. But you don't need that. Without the NADT code, your ability to pressure in the air is very bad. Being hit in the air is a bad position to be in and wario's dtilt puts you in the perfect spot to pressure nicely in the air and lead to other moves and position them on the stage to where you want them to go. Smash bros is a unique fighting game in which positioning on the stage is very very important. Its not one of those games that rely on high hitstun to perform guaranteed combos like 64. That gets boring.

The main aspect that makes the game exciting is that its more focused on positioning yourself and opponent on the stage and eliminating options to continue with strings. If your good enough, you can link together some nice true combos seamlessly with the strings which occur in tumble. This form of comboing is great when its not heavily based with hitstun and suffers without this code.

So going back to the wario dtilt, what I just said does not apply without NADT because by the time your ready to aggressively pressure the opponent (if you want too) in the air, they can easily air dodge right through it back to the ground and be in a better position than you making this move quite useless. This sort of super powerful defense gives the comboer little variety and choices in what he can do. Without this code, the better thought process would NOT be to chase with a uair because an air dodge to the ground would be very costly to the wario player so his best option would be to stay on the ground timidly and wait to see what the person who got punished will do. That is the opposite way in which it should work. Part of the punishment of getting hit is to react to how the opponent follows up with his pressure, not the other way around.

If you think about it, it acts very similar to how combos in vbrawl acted....think defensively to punish the option of the air dodge. You should be able to be some what aggressive in the air with confidence that it won't backfire if you take the precautions but if you are over aggressive, you can possibly eat an attack straight from the tumble. The very least should be a reset to neutral with the opponent hit still at a slight stage positional disadvantage because of the move you hit them with. I like to think of it as a tug-o-war. You struggle with the opponent and hit them and put them in a slightly bad position so that their flag is almost past the center line, then all of a sudden, the rope jumps back to neutral (air dodge) instead of a slow reset back to neutral.







With the wario dtilt and the NADT codes on, you can effectively pressure in the air. Even though you have the option to wiggle out and air dodge almost as fast as just straight out from the tumble, its risky when pressured so that wouldn't be the best smartest option. Your fastest option might be a double jump retreat in which you can air dodge. But air dodging after your double jump when you are higher in the air is much more risky than straight air dodging where you initially double jumped from if the code wasn't on in which case you might want to double jump retreating Fair.

This sort of decision making and confidence it brings to the attacker to attempt to follow up with little risk of it blowing up in their face and potentially continuing the combo is good and only if they don't be over aggressive. But without the NADT codes on, no matter how well planned out you are with being aggressive, your risk is higher than it should be because you risk positional stage advantage which is important to this game. The game without this code punishes smart, aggressive play if that is your playstyle.

The game shouldn't punish aggressive playing. Over aggressiveness will of course result in punishment but the worst case for being smart aggressive should be a neutral position and in most situations, this is the case. So if most of the time with this code the position resets to neutral, what you will achieve is a slight stage positional advantage because that is where you wanted them to be which is why you chose that move. Because you established positional stage advantage from choosing to be aggressive and pursue, you can still effectively pressure after so they need to work just a little bit to fully reestablish their footing which is very important if you are a heavy character. Your main game plan is more about positioning them on the stage well then to combo all over the place like falcon. If you make a dumb mistake by being over aggressive with your pressure, then you can be punished.

So basically, the wario dtilt with the NADT codes on sets up for several pressuring tactics that can lead to something bigger which is how the move should work. Thus speeding up the cool down lag is not necessary when you have a mechanic that solves the problem for you as well as all the moves that fit into this category not to mention that this direction for fixing the move is better for the game overall.

 

[Rudra]

When planning an escape from tumble, you also have the option of FFing from it in case your opponent does expect you to double jump out of it. It also supports teching and ensures that you don't end up in the scenario abcool brought up. (It did suck that we lost that set because of the SDs lol)

 

[kupo15]

When planning an escape from tumble, you also have the option of FFing from it in case your opponent does expect you to double jump out of it. It also supports teching and ensures that you don't end up in the scenario abcool brought up. (It did suck that we lost that set because of the SDs lol)

Exactly right. This code primary presents itself (but certainly not limited too) when you go into the tumble close to the ground. Instead of being able to bypass teching, your put into a teching position. Do I attempt to jump to avoid the tech but put myself at a potential risk of recovering without a jump or do I safely tech and try to mindgame my tech to escape successfully?


Sorry for my big wall of text. I guess I didn't think it would be clear unless I went in about some general ways the code helps also.

 

[leafgreen386]

I thought he was arguing for changing when you can airdodge and not if Marth's d-throw can send you offstage.

I don't even get what you're arguing about anymore. He wanted the NADT code so that when he initiates a tech... it actually techs, instead of airdodging because he's out of hitstun causing him to slide off the side and die.

 

[shanus]

I don't even get what you're arguing about anymore. He wanted the NADT code so that when he initiates a tech... it actually techs, instead of airdodging because he's out of hitstun causing him to slide off the side and die.

I don't think I've ever air dodged instead of teching, I never had that problem before lol

 

[cAm8ooo]

I really dont find it to be that big of a problem either. I have maybe done it once since ive started brawl+,if that.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't think I've ever air dodged instead of teching, I never had that problem before lol

Same, I don't have that problem.

 

[Swordplay]

Let me just say, NADT is not for the current B+ as it stands today. To include NADT and have it be successful you'd have to change a lot of things. The two biggest things would be decreased hitstun and Increased gravity.


It would be a completely different game than what we have now. A faster game. Better????? Possibly to some I don't know if I would go that far.

I'd still prefer the current brawl+ just for the mere fact that it still retains some casual aspects which I like as they are often fun and not all about winning. It makes it more appealing to the casual gamer but B+ as now is still far better than VB which will also draw many competitive people as well.

 

[kupo15]

So you changed your mind since then? There are a lot of things that aren't casual friendly. Hitstun is less casual friendly than NADT and a high one is even worse.

Hitstun--No form of defense except DI (casuals usually don't know about this)
NADT--Attack, jump, FF (hmmm, options for them to escape, less "trapped" feeling)

Why wouldn't you want to lower hitstun? It would make it more casual friendly and the addition of other aspects will make the game a deeper competitive game. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

[Swordplay]

Yea I guess you could say I slightly modified my position since we last talked.

Simply because I think changes like these make the game faster and I think there is a line where making the game so fast could be detrimental to the casual community. I personally think these types of change cross that line.

As a competitive player on a competitive forum you know I'm all for competition but from a project managers viewpoint (which I'm not. Its not like I'm in the BR) I have to think about the direction I want the game to go.

I guess you could say I'm a swing voter. A lot of this stuff is untested by the larget community. They might be scared to try kupo's version over the plussery version just as many people in VB are afraid to try B+. I could see myself in that role. Kupo if you want more support you should distribute your stuff more activly behind the scenes.

(Last thing I want is multiple versions like with what happened with Mookie and muba)




I suppose my argument now is just a wall-of-text that makes no sense. Just forgive me and forget I mentioned anything

 

[kupo15]

Well, this game will never be as fast as melee and the NADT won't do that either lol. And seeing how melee's speed didn't phase the casual community at all, I don't see how brawl+ would. And in fact, I can't really think of one casual player who ever had a problem with anything competitive about melee unless they knew about it like wave dashing. They also don't like edge hogging but that's with any smash game.

I have been showing people my altered set and have been getting positive feedback thus far. I'm just about to release an updated version

 

[XSilvenX]

KUPO I see where you're coming from but..

I have to agree with the default ledge grabbing distance...Brawl's default is fine. I don't understand why you feel the need to make it harder to grab the ledge just because you think it takes more "skill". All it really does it force people to go closer to the ledge so stupid edgeguards tactics like holding a forward smash charge work against certain characters since there's no auto sweetspot.


Granted it definitely does take more skill but is it really absolutely necessary? Is it gonna really come down to ledge grab range deciding the fate of two people in finals? No, but it is gonna make crappy horizontal recovery characters like Link and Ike a little bit worse when everyone knows they deserve better. Now this is not a character buff/debuff I'm just stating that these two are some of the most affected by the reduced range. It's getting to the point where it seems like you're just making things harder for the hell of it, I mean seriously it's easier and more suited for "casuals" but who the hell cares? Every other aspect of Brawl+ is amazing and definitely does much to seperate the grey area between hardcore and casual but when you put useless stuff like that it just makes stupid edgeguard tactics more potent and recovery handicapped characters like Ike/Link a little bit worse.

edt- @ Falco400...Whoops, misunderstanding on my part but my opinion still stands.

 

[Revven]

Silven, we haven't changed ledgegrab range yet, what you're experiencing is the No Autosweetspot >.>

 

[XSilvenX]

My bad, I thought you guys already did because I did notice missing the ledge a few times but it probably was me doing something wrong. *_*

And by the way, I wasn't referring to the no auto sweetspot. I am perfectly clear on what that is I was just under the impression that the reduced ledgegrab range was already in effect.

Oh and for the record I'm playing on the unreleased Brawl+ 4.1 so yeah..

 

[Rkey]

I don't get why we're arguing whether the game will make casual players look away, you still need to soft/hardmod your wii to get this, I don't think there will be much casual players playing B+.

Moreover, I heard once in the IRC that someone said "We're trying to co-exist with vBrawl, not taking it over". And the goal of B+ is to make a game that is good competetive wise, so why stop something that is a good thing in that sense for people who most likely will not play the game and have also got another choice?

I'm saying yes to the NADT code, with a please, it will remove a lot of the overly defensive meta-game we have been complaining about, mostly in the podcast, of vBrawl.

 

[XSilvenX]

The thing is, most of us here on smashboards play the game competitively so for the most part vBrawl and Brawl+ can't co-exist perfectly. Think about how the community is already split into Melee and Brawl. You really think if Brawl+ catches on there's gonna be a Melee/Brawl/Brawl+ divide? Nope, not likely. Most likely Brawl+ will take over as the mainstay for tournaments because it was DESIGNED with tournaments in mind. Brawl was not. Sure it can co-exist in the sense that people will have access to both and they can play both but realistically speaking I think most of the tournament community will gradually favor Brawl+. I see it slowly happening already, even people who quit vBrawl are coming back. It's really just a matter of time. If somehow interest in Brawl+ starts declining then maybe I will be wrong but at the rate word is spreading I honestly don't see serious players choosing a Brawl tournament over a Brawl+ one in the near future. If you look at the tournament listings already you can see a few of them popping up.

If ECRC adopts Brawl+ and if MLG adopts it then it's set...the big problem would be playing a hacked game and being a sponsored company. Nintendo probably wouldn't like that..
anyway I'm going off-topic here.

/response

 

[shanus]

I don't get why we're arguing whether the game will make casual players look away, you still need to soft/hardmod your wii to get this, I don't think there will be much casual players playing B+.

Moreover, I heard once in the IRC that someone said "We're trying to co-exist with vBrawl, not taking it over". And the goal of B+ is to make a game that is good competetive wise, so why stop something that is a good thing in that sense for people who most likely will not play the game and have also got another choice?

I'm saying yes to the NADT code, with a please, it will remove a lot of the overly defensive meta-game we have been complaining about, mostly in the podcast, of vBrawl.

No offense to you RKey, but haven't you not even played Brawl+ yet? The offense/defense game seems to be slightly tipped in offense's favor right now....

 

[Rkey]

No offense to you RKey, but haven't you not even played Brawl+ yet? The offense/defense game seems to be slightly tipped in offense's favor right now....

Well, I guess "No" will do as an answer. No, I have not played b+ yet.

 

[Teronist09]

Ok, for example, wario's dtilt. There has been talk to speed this up for whatever reason, its not good enough for the lag it has afterwards? I think the move is excellent as is. So here is how the NADT makes a speed change unnecessary.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you just tap out of tumble the instant hitstun is over and get down into position like nothing happened?

 

[Almas]

The issue arises with the fact that there is no indication of when the hitstun is over. To avoid combo strings, one must twiddle the stick until they see they are out of hitstun, and then airdodge. Combined with the feat of DI, this makes avoiding combos at low %s very tricky to deal with.

 

[CountKaiser]

Isn't hitstun over once your character reaches equilibrium from the launch?

 

[SketchHurricane]

I have to agree with the default ledge grabbing distance...Brawl's default is fine. I don't understand why you feel the need to make it harder to grab the ledge just because you think it takes more "skill". All it really does it force people to go closer to the ledge so stupid edgeguards tactics like holding a forward smash charge work against certain characters since there's no auto sweetspot.

I'm not familiar with the original argument, but I will say that I agree with this. Don't forget that one of the major complaints with gravity was that it hampered the off-stage game that vBrawl allowed. A few people were against NAS because they felt it promoted "passive" edge-guarding by opening up those easy kills. I will concede that the ledge grab range is rather teleport-tastic at times, but it not only prevents thoughtless edge-guards as mentioned above, but it preserves the benefit of going out after someone instead of waiting by the ledge.

I don't know about you guys, but I think it's stupid that Marth can repeatedly poke you into oblivion in Melee from the ledge. Honestly I don't know if he can still do that or not in B+, but I'd hate to fuel that fire for him or any other character by decreasing ledge-snap range.