COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

The thing is, most of us here on smashboards play the game competitively so for the most part vBrawl and Brawl+ can't co-exist perfectly. Think about how the community is already split into Melee and Brawl. You really think if Brawl+ catches on there's gonna be a Melee/Brawl/Brawl+ divide? Nope, not likely. Most likely Brawl+ will take over as the mainstay for tournaments because it was DESIGNED with tournaments in mind. Brawl was not. Sure it can co-exist in the sense that people will have access to both and they can play both but realistically speaking I think most of the tournament community will gradually favor Brawl+. I see it slowly happening already, even people who quit vBrawl are coming back. It's really just a matter of time. If somehow interest in Brawl+ starts declining then maybe I will be wrong but at the rate word is spreading I honestly don't see serious players choosing a Brawl tournament over a Brawl+ one in the near future. If you look at the tournament listings already you can see a few of them popping up.

If ECRC adopts Brawl+ and if MLG adopts it then it's set...the big problem would be playing a hacked game and being a sponsored company. Nintendo probably wouldn't like that..
anyway I'm going off-topic here.

/response

This is our game and if they want to come to it, its how we set up the game. We are not going to make a game based off of them in the hopes that they will come over. A very good competitive game will attract people. So you see what I mean but just don't want to because you don't want too?

No offense to you RKey, but haven't you not even played Brawl+ yet? The offense/defense game seems to be slightly tipped in offense's favor right now....

I would tend to disagree.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you just tap out of tumble the instant hitstun is over and get down into position like nothing happened?

Yes you can, but getting out of the tumble in a neutral state that distance above the ground is not as safe as airdodging down, right? Almas has it right also.

The issue arises with the fact that there is no indication of when the hitstun is over. To avoid combo strings, one must twiddle the stick until they see they are out of hitstun, and then airdodge. Combined with the feat of DI, this makes avoiding combos at low %s very tricky to deal with.

Correct. Its harder when your in the crazy stun but not the twirling stun.

I'm not familiar with the original argument, but I will say that I agree with this. Don't forget that one of the major complaints with gravity was that it hampered the off-stage game that vBrawl allowed. A few people were against NAS because they felt it promoted "passive" edge-guarding by opening up those easy kills. I will concede that the ledge grab range is rather teleport-tastic at times, but it not only prevents thoughtless edge-guards as mentioned above, but it preserves the benefit of going out after someone instead of waiting by the ledge.

I don't know about you guys, but I think it's stupid that Marth can repeatedly poke you into oblivion in Melee from the ledge. Honestly I don't know if he can still do that or not in B+, but I'd hate to fuel that fire for him or any other character by decreasing ledge-snap range.

You can still go after people on the ledge with a smaller grab range. This situation seems to act like accidental powershields which we reduced.

And by the way, the ledge grab in melee wasn't the problem with Marth's dtilt, it was the move itself. The move went like 15 degs below the stage but in brawl, I think it doesn't do that anymore.

It's getting to the point where it seems like you're just making things harder for the hell of it, I mean seriously it's easier and more suited for "casuals" but who the hell cares? Every other aspect of Brawl+ is amazing and definitely does much to seperate the grey area between hardcore and casual but when you put useless stuff like that it just makes stupid edgeguard tactics more potent and recovery handicapped characters like Ike/Link a little bit worse.

This is a competitive project and we should remove all casual aspects from it. Why leave casual things behind for the sake of making it casual friendly when this project is for competitive crowd? Seems like a waste of time to work on a project not geared towards the competitive crowd 100%. And I think my video proves that I don't want to make it harder for the hell of it. It seems like you want to keep things for the casuals for the hell of it.

 

[Teronist09]

Yes you can, but getting out of the tumble in a neutral state that distance above the ground is not as safe as airdodging down, right? Almas has it right also..

In which case, I don't see why forcing them to use their other options in a last ditch attempt to avoid damage is a good thing.

 

[kupo15]

Its not forcing them. You can chose to wiggle air dodge if you learned when you get out of hitstun. Also, I don't see the problem in an opponent forcing the other player to do something with how they pressure. I see a problem in not being able to pressure the way you want to be pressuring. If they chose not to pressure, then no harm in wiggling out only. The game doesn't force options, the player does and without the code, the game arbitrarily limits the options of the aggressive player in which it should not do. If you want to be aggressive, you shouldn't be disadvantaged in doing so because the game doesn't want you too.

 

[Teronist09]

If you learn when hitstun ends and always get out in time, what's the point of having NAD in the first place, then? Just to make people who don't want to learn the timing/haven't learned it yet get punished for not practicing? I don't see why the game needs to get a push in the offensive direction. If you can't pressure the way you wanted to you find a different way to pressure. I wasn't happy with the defensive campy nature of vbrawl, but brawl+ for the most part seemed to give better offense without losing too much of it's defensive game.
Even if it works both ways, why should you be allowed to give yourself an advantage that wasn't there?

 

[shanus]

Saying this game isn't much closer to offense/defense is pretty silly given by the plain fact that a lot of characters have moves which are close to guaranteed to be safe on shields.

Given the prevalance of high shieldstun, ALR, momentum, hitstun, and DD'ing, its hard to claim the game isn't being biased towards offense. Offense is a perfectly viable strategy now and sure can be harder for some characters which lack in priority, but that is a character weakness. Approaching with marth and fox is significantly easier than falcon and bowser as an example. But just as falcon lacks safe approaches, that can make the game feel slightly more defensive on your receiving end because you simply have to be more careful / calculated on your approaches. This does not mean offense as a whole needs to buffed. It means plain and simple, (just like melee), you can't throw yourself around as falcon or characters with weak approaches. You need to calculate how you can get a successful initiation and then techchase / combo like crazy after you get that small opening.

There are only a few lame strats (such as the MK uair planking which we are fixing) and jiggs >B planking which I would call defensively biased and need fixing.

I really don't think I could even dare to say the game is not fairly well-tuned between offense and defense (if anything, shieldstun on weak hits might be too high still) as I play against a variety of players of whom 2 are extremely campy and excellent players. They can't camp nearly as effective as before and often are forced to a balance of offense and defense to do well.

 

[Blank Mauser]

If we are going to try and mix-up the offensive game I would rather do it in a way thats intuitive and easy to get used to rather then a button input that just makes it easier to mess up your DI. Not only is it a kind of frustrating code at times but its kind of a tedious process guessing hitstun and most the times mashing jump before airdodging just replaces airdodging.

I would rather have something be done to make airdodging not always the best option. For example, maybe getting hit during airdodge lag/landing makes DI not count. I also had this idea of applying it for when you get hit in the middle of an attack. This may help that issue of abusing disjointed offensive moves to be defensive and therefore incredibly hard to deal with for characters who lack approaches. Basically, a reward for counterhitting.

Lack of DI would make kill moves kill better, and combo moves combo better. Adding it for counterhits may be a little harder than just the lag on airdodges though. We wouldn't want people to not be able to save themselves after a laggy move by predicting their opponents kill move, not to mention punishing lag happens way more often and doesn't take nearly the same amount of prediction as an actual counterhit should. It'd have to be limited to certain frames, in which getting attacked during those frames makes DI not count.

I'm iffy on the balance between offense/defense. Both can be rewarded, the game doesn't really promote either one as landing your setups can come from either playstyle. I do agree that shieldstun can be a little too weird for small hits though. Some weak moves can be too safe for how close the opponent can be.

 

[shanus]

I wonder if we can just make it so if you are in a tumble and you air dodge, it has double or 1.5x start up lag or something like that. That would bring the frame count of waiting till invulnerability to 4.5 frames or even 6 frames which would encourage more use of jumping or other options while not demanding the player to furiously pay attention to exactly when hitstun ends. This also would make make it equal the frame bias of not being frame perfect for wiggles such that player instead of furiously paying attention to the frame when hitstun ends can focus more on what option they should pursue. We could then reduce hitstun a tad (not enough to remove true combos like sonic uthrow to uair). This encourages options but at the same time offers an equal exit strategy for the entire cast. It also won't require you to wiggle every time which is a huge plus!

This puts tumble at a disadvantaged state, but not an entirely crippled state.

Thoughts?

 

[cman]

For the NADT, possibly make the character flash for the first frame out of hitstun?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I wonder if we can just make it so if you are in a tumble and you air dodge, it has double or 1.5x start up lag or something like that. That would bring the frame count of waiting till invulnerability to 4.5 frames or even 6 frames which would encourage more use of jumping or other options while not demanding the player to furiously pay attention to exactly when hitstun ends. This also would make make it equal the frame bias of not being frame perfect for wiggles such that player instead of furiously paying attention to the frame when hitstun ends can focus more on what option they should pursue. We could then reduce hitstun a tad (not enough to remove true combos like sonic uthrow to uair). This encourages options but at the same time offers an equal exit strategy for the entire cast. It also won't require you to wiggle every time which is a huge plus!

This puts tumble at a disadvantaged state, but not an entirely crippled state.

Thoughts?

Adding startup lag to airdodges at all would be a good idea and is something that I thought of too. I like the idea of applying it out of tumble, but I don't know if hitstun needs to be reduced if theres still jumping and other escape options. I hardly ever airdodge to the ground straight out of hitstun anyways, I just think airdodging is a little too dominant.

It might also have to work on a timer. Otherwise it might be better sometimes to just get out of tumble and get no startup lag then to start the airdodge instantly and get startup lag.

 

[A Diamond For Disease]

Where do you put the jump recovery after the down b code in the txt file?

 

[kupo15]

If you can't pressure the way you wanted to you find a different way to pressure. I wasn't happy with the defensive campy nature of vbrawl, but brawl+ for the most part seemed to give better offense without losing too much of it's defensive game.
Even if it works both ways, why should you be allowed to give yourself an advantage that wasn't there?

Why should the game force me to change my playstyle and not the player?

Saying this game isn't much closer to offense/defense is pretty silly given by the plain fact that a lot of characters have moves which are close to guaranteed to be safe on shields.

Given the prevalance of high shieldstun, ALR, momentum, hitstun, and DD'ing, its hard to claim the game isn't being biased towards offense. Offense is a perfectly viable strategy now and sure can be harder for some characters which lack in priority, but that is a character weakness. Approaching with marth and fox is significantly easier than falcon and bowser as an example. But just as falcon lacks safe approaches, that can make the game feel slightly more defensive on your receiving end because you simply have to be more careful / calculated on your approaches. This does not mean offense as a whole needs to buffed. It means plain and simple, (just like melee), you can't throw yourself around as falcon or characters with weak approaches. You need to calculate how you can get a successful initiation and then techchase / combo like crazy after you get that small opening.

There are only a few lame strats (such as the MK uair planking which we are fixing) and jiggs >B planking which I would call defensively biased and need fixing.

I really don't think I could even dare to say the game is not fairly well-tuned between offense and defense (if anything, shieldstun on weak hits might be too high still) as I play against a variety of players of whom 2 are extremely campy and excellent players. They can't camp nearly as effective as before and often are forced to a balance of offense and defense to do well.

Last I checked, tumble situations like I was talking about has nothing to do with the initial approach like you are saying. We are arguing two different things. We haven't done anything to the after hitstun state which encourages defensive thinking and punishes aggressive play. Its playing favorites. If they don't pressure you, the "restrictedness" of NADT are NOT prevalent at all since you can safely do your fastest aerial out of tumble which ends quicker than an air dodge. But if they want to be aggressive and be proactive about positioning you on the stage, he should be able to do that with the confidence of being able to do so. There is no way you can effectively position someone on the stage with air dodging as an out of tumble option. How can you when they are untouchable?

I wonder if we can just make it so if you are in a tumble and you air dodge, it has double or 1.5x start up lag or something like that. That would bring the frame count of waiting till invulnerability to 4.5 frames or even 6 frames which would encourage more use of jumping or other options while not demanding the player to furiously pay attention to exactly when hitstun ends. This also would make make it equal the frame bias of not being frame perfect for wiggles such that player instead of furiously paying attention to the frame when hitstun ends can focus more on what option they should pursue. We could then reduce hitstun a tad (not enough to remove true combos like sonic uthrow to uair). This encourages options but at the same time offers an equal exit strategy for the entire cast. It also won't require you to wiggle every time which is a huge plus!

This puts tumble at a disadvantaged state, but not an entirely crippled state.

Thoughts?

That would ruin air dodging as a whole. I highly doubt that we can only have it work for this one situation. Not to mention that this "fix" would ruin the teching decision that has to be made when you are close to the ground.

Wiggling is not a chore and is not used all the time. I rarely wiggle and it doesn't take away from the game that I have to wiggle...I mean, tap ONCE! Its less of a chore than mashing b on pits side b.

For the NADT, possibly make the character flash for the first frame out of hitstun?

Interesting idea

 

[shanus]

Why should the game force me to change my playstyle and not the player?

Last I checked, tumble situations like I was talking about has nothing to do with the initial approach like you are saying. We are arguing two different things. We haven't done anything to the after hitstun state which encourages defensive thinking and punishes aggressive play. Its playing favorites. If they don't pressure you, the "restrictedness" of NADT are NOT prevalent at all since you can safely do your fastest aerial out of tumble which ends quicker than an air dodge. But if they want to be aggressive and be proactive about positioning you on the stage, he should be able to do that with the confidence of being able to do so. There is no way you can effectively position someone on the stage with air dodging as an out of tumble option. How can you when they are untouchable?


That would ruin air dodging as a whole. I highly doubt that we can only have it work for this one situation. Not to mention that this "fix" would ruin the teching decision that has to be made when you are close to the ground.

Wiggling is not a chore and is not used all the time. I rarely wiggle and it doesn't take away from the game that I have to wiggle...I mean, tap ONCE! Its less of a chore than mashing b on pits side b.


Interesting idea

So first point, the fact is youve built up a positional advantage in that you've (heopfully) set up your combo to finish them off in an undesirable state. First they have more damage, second, they could be off the stage or in a juggle. I fail to see how that isn't enough. You can still punish them if they AD, its just meant to make it so you can't kill them TOO easily or force them to use a DJ.


I don't think you read my post correctly.

How does it worsen ADing as a whole? It would make it only have more start up lag if you try to air dodge during tumble. This gives you the decision to wiggle out&AD (rewards those with high speed/tech skill), AD with penalty (now slower to come out while in tumble), jump, etc. In a time pressing combo, you will need to weigh out those decisions. This encourages diversity while weakening the OP AD but not removing it as an entire option. Remember, once you are in normal fall state dodging would not be slower.


Also, for the 9232389498423984238942389x time, I have NEVER ever air dodged instead of teching. The options remain the same. Tech, jump, or air dodge. There is no heightened tech chase game from it except for the fact that its harder to air dodge at low % when you don't have time to wiggle out. There is no fancy decision making there that is any different than now. That is why I suggested a penalized air dodge system from tumble. The fact that you frequently don't wiggle also shows how it is entirely removing an option rather than discouraging its use entirely.

The above option of making tumble penalize your air dodge startup just makes the options slightly more balanced frame wise.


What I'm supporting is nerf ADs during tumble to be not as good, but still make it an option. That is all I'm saying. All we would need to do is if you are in tumbleID, shield is pressed, add a 2 frame or 3 frame delay to it, problem solved.

 

[Teronist09]

Why should the game force me to change my playstyle and not the player?

I'm not sure what you mean. Playstyle is based on what you can do in the game, so why would you develop a style that isn't supported?

 

[Dantarion]

I am confused.

If instead of airdodging to get out of things, I now jump+airdodge, how does NADT make it easier to combo (assuming I still have my doublejump)

 

[Yeroc]

I really like shanus' AD idea. The biggest issue with air dodging out of tumble is that too often it's the best option. Making it take a few frames longer to come out would definitely limit its predominance without crippling its usefulness, and help players ease into the new system. I'd also like to see a code that allows for zairs out of tumble, which could maybe be combined with the other one.

Also, were we to incorporate such a code, I'd suggest also reimplementing the FF Tumble code as well.

 

[kupo15]

If you learn when hitstun ends and always get out in time, what's the point of having NAD in the first place, then? Just to make people who don't want to learn the timing/haven't learned it yet get punished for not practicing?

Going back to this, Ill answer the question with a question. Why in anything that you do and needs to be learned, do you always have to prove that you know how to do it by continuously do it? You did it once, that should be enough, right?

No offense to you RKey, but haven't you not even played Brawl+ yet? The offense/defense game seems to be slightly tipped in offense's favor right now....

I find it funny how several months ago when this convo came up, there was someone like RKey except on shanus' side. I responded similarly to how shanus responded and shanus didn't like that yet he is doing it now....

So first point, the fact is youve built up a positional advantage in that you've (heopfully) set up your combo to finish them off in an undesirable state.

I don't think I understand this sentence.

First they have more damage, second, they could be off the stage or in a juggle. I fail to see how that isn't enough. You can still punish them if they AD, its just meant to make it so you can't kill them TOO easily or force them to use a DJ.

Oh ok, so then why do you want to speed up wario's dtilt? According to you, the effect the dtilt has is good enough because of everything you said so why would you consider speeding it up?

What is wrong with forcing a double jump and what makes forcing an air dodge "acceptable?" What do you mean kill them "TOO easily?" This alone should prove that you don't really know what your talking about because tumble does not affect hitstun. You still have three other defensive options if pressured and combine that with other moves. If you have a problem with the comboability or the fact that its easy to always be in the pressured state, then you have a problem with your hitstun level. Its too high.

I don't think you read my post correctly.

How does it worsen ADing as a whole? It would make it only have more start up lag if you try to air dodge during tumble. This gives you the decision to wiggle out, AD, AD with penalty, jump, etc. Once you are in normal fall state dodging would not be slower.

You didn't read everything I said. I said I don't think its possible to affect this one situation because the action ID for air dodge is the same regardless of the situation.

Also, for the 9232389498423984238942389x time, I have NEVER ever air dodged instead of teching. The options remain the same. Tech, jump, or air dodge. There is no heightened tech chase game from it except for the fact that its harder to air dodge at low % when you don't have time to wiggle out.

In which case you most likely will chose to tech because its easier, not because air dodging isn't an option.

The fact that you frequently don't wiggle also shows how it is entirely removing an option rather than discouraging its use entirely.

I don't understand. When pressured I am discouraged from using it. If not, then I can wiggle (Tap ONCE) and escape. It isn't removing an option.

The above option of making tumble penalize your air dodge startup just makes the options slightly more balanced frame wise.

NADT also balances it out also because its risky to wiggle when pressured.

Also why should the game tell you to change your playstyle? It doesn't, you choose your own playstyle.

Try being aggressive in vbrawl and tell me the game doesn't dictate your playstyle. (mk doesn't count) Even though this isn't vbrawl, the same concept applies because this aspect of the game is unchanged from vbrawl.

You don't capitalize on their AD. Learn to. That changes the player.

Oh you mean, be defensive in my playstyle? I know how to punish air dodges but I'd rather not be forced to think defensive. I'd rather be given the option to be able to be somewhat aggressive or defensive. If I am aggressive with NADT and my opponent knows how to counter that, that will change my playstyle thinking. Giving the opponent an easy button to change your playstyle is not good and always thinking about waiting for the air dodge as a main form of strings slows the game down. Even if you punish the air dodge, there is nothing stopping them from air dodging knowing they will get hit and use the time to set up for perfect DI. Its a cop out.

In effect, your strongly suggesting everyone changes their playstyle to making air dodge not a viable option. Isn't that a bit hypocritical based on your previous statement?

Its not hypocritical seeing how air dodging is still a viable option.

What I'm supporting is nerf ADs during tumble to be not as good, but still make it an option. That is all I'm saying.

So am I. At least you realize that ADing is a little too good of an out of tumble option. Before you thought it was perfectly fine the way it is.

All we would need to do is if you are in tumbleID, shield is pressed, add a 2 frame or 3 frame delay to it, problem solved.

Or you can add NADT which is already made. Problem solved

I'm not sure what you mean. Playstyle is based on what you can do in the game, so why would you develop a style that isn't supported?

Once again, look at vbrawl. Tell me vbrawl supported aggressive play. This mechanic (tumble game) is unchanged in brawl+.

I am confused.

If instead of airdodging to get out of things, I now jump+airdodge, how does NADT make it easier to combo (assuming I still have my doublejump)

It beats me how they think NADT makes comboing easier....because it doesn't. NADT in combination with a lower hitstun makes the game faster, better paced, balances the game and makes comboing more skillful which it needs to be because this game is too easy. But apparently they want an easy game for the casuals.

 

[CloneHat]

Can you make it more straightforward to escape tumble? This "wiggle" s*** is not my kind of smash.

I don't see how it makes it more competitive, it's just like random movement.

 

[abcool]

I agree with kupo. Everything in brawl+ feels a little to easy....i mean i know if ppl see my playstyle with fox it can be copied and used just as effectively. I feel everything has been streamlined in brawl+ simply because you wanna attract ppl. Isn't this game made for competition or are you guys catering to casuals like sakurai?

All i am saying is NADT adds an option that supports hitstun and teching. Besides that buffering AD when you wanna tech is gay dude. It happened to ME. yes shanus other ppl play this game aswell.

 

[Teronist09]

Going back to this, Ill answer the question with a question. Why in anything that you do and needs to be learned, do you always have to prove that you know how to do it by continuously do it? You did it once, that should be enough, right?

I don't understand what you're implying with this rhetorical. If you practice so that 8-9 times out of 10 a person gets out of hitstun instantly you're only putting up a barrier to those who haven't memorized hitstun, putting them at a disadvantage vs anyone who has learned them. That seems like an unnecessary tech barrier. If it can be done it will.

Once again, look at vbrawl. Tell me vbrawl supported aggressive play. This mechanic (tumble game) is unchanged in brawl+.

It doesn't seem like you answered the question.
If you went to vbrawl expecting to play aggressively only to find you can't effectively, you either pick a character who can do that to some level and deal with it or play something else. I don't really see why we need to shift b+ more towards being an offensive game.

 

[Rudra]

I dont think that adding startup lag on ADs is the way to go here, as it is a direct nerf to ADing on a whole (As Kupo said). At least the NADT weakens its dominance, supports pressuring, and encourages smart usage of your other options (Jumping, Teching/FFing, Wiggling to AD, attacking) while tumbling...

For the NADT, possibly make the character flash for the first frame out of hitstun?

This sounds good.

 

[Magus420]

Perhaps it depends on the characters involved, but I find doublejumping/doublejump+airdodging to be way better at getting out of things than just airdodging. So much better in fact, that I actually thought NADT was on the entire time until I actually checked for it, and that I just wasn't tapping out of the tumble correctly before dodging. Even after realizing it wasn't on, I'd usually choose not to dodge as it was often getting me hit in places DJ/DJADing would allow me to escape.

 

[shanus]

I dont think that adding startup lag on ADs is the way to go here, as it is a direct nerf to ADing on a whole (As Kupo said). At least the NADT weakens its dominance, supports pressuring, and encourages smart usage of your other options (Jumping, Teching/FFing, Wiggling to AD, attacking) while tumbling...




This sounds good.

You didn't read it properly. It doesn't add start–up frames to all air dodges, only when you are in tumble.

Read this again as a big if statement.


IF PLAYER IS IN TUMBLE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE --> ADD ON X (i.e., 2) FRAMES OF START UP
IF PLAYER IS IN ANY OTHER STATE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE –> AIR DODGE AS NORMAL


What this will do:

ABout 30-40% of the cast has options less than 4 frames to which a hitbox is out. The current air dodge has a start up lag of 3 frames until invincibility. By appending on say, 2 frames, this makes air dodging while in tumble a worse option than jumping and air dodging (1 frame followed by 3 frames), jumping and attacking (order of 4-8 frames) and neutral with attacking in which 75% of the cast can attack and have a hitbox out on frame 5.

What this fixes: the overall dominance of air dodging and only mashing air dodge
What this doesnt do:
-nerf normal air dodges, only tumbled air dodges
-remove an option entirely while your being pressured
-it encourages people with good tech skill to wiggle an AD if they are quick enough.

I agree with kupo. Everything in brawl+ feels a little to easy....i mean i know if ppl see my playstyle with fox it can be copied and used just as effectively. I feel everything has been streamlined in brawl+ simply because you wanna attract ppl. Isn't this game made for competition or are you guys catering to casuals like sakurai?

All i am saying is NADT adds an option that supports hitstun and teching. Besides that buffering AD when you wanna tech is gay dude. It happened to ME. yes shanus other ppl play this game aswell.

How in the world are you buffering in an air dodge? You'd have to be in hitstun for that to happen which means you'd be missing your tech because you have no clue which direction your going in. This means that you simply misjudged your trajectory and tried to tech and airdodged instead.

I know other people play the game, but it just sounds like you messed up. I mean you even explained it in the IRC. You were hit far to the side and tried to tech cuz you missed the stage and air dodged instead. You died for messing up an input when you were missing the stage.

Also, this in no way removes your feel of "easy," I fail to see how that point has anything to do with the rest of your post.

 

[abcool]

You didn't read it properly. It doesn't add start–up frames to all air dodges, only when you are in tumble.

Read this again as a big if statement.


IF PLAYER IS IN TUMBLE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE --> ADD ON 2 FRAMES OF START UP
IF PLAYER IS IN ANY OTHER STATE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE –> AIR DODGE AS NORMAL


What this will do:

ABout 30-40% of the cast has options less than 4 frames to which a hitbox is out. The current air dodge has a start up lag of 3 frames until invincibility. By appending on say, 2 frames, this makes air dodging while in tumble a worse option than jumping and air dodging (1 frame followed by 3 frames), jumping and attacking (order of 4-8 frames) and neutral with attacking in which 75% of the cast can attack and have a hitbox out on frame 5.

What this fixes: the overall dominance of air dodging and only mashing air dodge
What this doesnt do:
-nerf normal air dodges, only tumbled air dodges
-remove an option entirely while your being pressured
-it encourages people with good tech skill to wiggle an AD if they are quick enough.

What is the difference between that and NADT...i don't remember that nerfing normal AD only tumble....don't get it really..,you did the samething kupo did...but in ur own way..now to vote on ya favorite broomer...:/ I am on a wii rite now...but i'll explain what i mean

 

[shanus]

ABcool, the normal NADT makes it so you can't ever air dodge during tumble. This makes it so air dodge is less good, but still an option without having to wiggle to do so. The nice part of it is you can wiggle and air dodge out right away if you have good tech skill meaning there is a *good airdodge if your wiggle* and a penalized one if you suck. Basically it puts it on neutral playing field if do it during tumble instead of being the lamborghini in a race with a bunch of minivans.

 

[abcool]

ABcool, the normal NADT makes it so you can't ever air dodge during tumble. This makes it so air dodge is less good, but still an option without having to wiggle to do so. The nice part of it is you can wiggle and air dodge out right away if you have good tech skill meaning there is a *good airdodge if your wiggle* and a penalized one if you suck. Basically it puts it on neutral playing field if do it during tumble instead of being the lamborghini in a race with a bunch of minivans.

I'll answer you when i get on a com this wii keyboard is a pain...

 

[CloneHat]

Perhaps you could make some more start up lag on the ADT so it's just not a good option. I think nerfing an option is better than removing it.

 

[kupo15]

I don't understand what you're implying with this rhetorical. If you practice so that 8-9 times out of 10 a person gets out of hitstun instantly you're only putting up a barrier to those who haven't memorized hitstun, putting them at a disadvantage vs anyone who has learned them. That seems like an unnecessary tech barrier. If it can be done it will..

I was just trying to point out that just because something is learned, doesn't mean we shouldn't include it. Everything in this game has to be learned and then its easy with the possibility of error. Just because you learned it doesn't mean you take it out because then there will be no game. But even so, do you have any idea how many different hitstun situations happen that you would have to learn? Too many for one to be perfect all the time. Just trying to use the logic you presented to the discussion against you.

It doesn't seem like you answered the question.
If you went to vbrawl expecting to play aggressively only to find you can't effectively, you either pick a character who can do that to some level and deal with it or play something else. I don't really see why we need to shift b+ more towards being an offensive game

Its allowing you to play how you want. You always have the option to play defensive but if the offensive options are not there or reward for the risk is not there for being offensive, you can't play aggressively. Not to mention the fact that NADT caters to those who can't abuse hitstun like falcon. Increasing hitstun is not the solution to balance out the cast. That will just further imbalance the cast because the gap of the abusers of htistun to those who can't will be larger. The correct solution is to add NADT for the characters that need it and lower hitstun. This will also help with the flow of the game because you are not waiting a lot to get out of hitstun. The control is not taken out of your hands for too long so you have a better interaction with the player.

You didn't read it properly. It doesn't add start–up frames to all air dodges, only when you are in tumble.

Read this again as a big if statement.


IF PLAYER IS IN TUMBLE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE --> ADD ON 2 FRAMES OF START UP
IF PLAYER IS IN ANY OTHER STATE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE –> AIR DODGE AS NORMAL


What this will do:

And what if this isn't possible? Would you not include NADT out of spite for the code even though you recognize the issue its trying to address?

ABout 30-40% of the cast has options less than 4 frames to which a hitbox is out. The current air dodge has a start up lag of 3 frames until invincibility. By appending on say, 2 frames, this makes air dodging while in tumble a worse option than jumping and air dodging (1 frame followed by 3 frames), jumping and attacking (order of 4-8 frames) and neutral with attacking in which 75% of the cast can attack and have a hitbox out on frame 5.

Here is another thing I have a problem with. Arbitrarily assigning the amount of lag it has. NADT doesn't have this because it is directly affected to the skill of the player.

What this fixes: the overall dominance of air dodging and only mashing air dodge

So does NADT

What this doesnt do:
-nerf normal air dodges, only tumbled air dodges

If possible

-remove an option entirely while your being pressured

NADT does not do this...sorry

-it encourages people with good tech skill to wiggle an AD if they are quick enough.

I'm sorry, I didn't know tech skill is something everyone should have when they first start out.

ABcool, the normal NADT makes it so you can't ever air dodge during tumble. This makes it so air dodge is less good, but still an option without having to wiggle to do so.

You make it sound like its detrimental to the game. If you are not pressured and have some time, ONE tap (it shouldn't even be called a wiggle) will enable an air dodge. It is soooo hard to do and removes air dodging as an option....
/saracasm

The nice part of it is you can wiggle and air dodge out right away if you have good tech skill meaning there is a *good airdodge if your wiggle* and a penalized one if you suck.

So you want to streamline more aspects of the game so make it easy? Boo hoo for those who never practiced or those who decided to take the risk in doing so instead of jumping out which requires no additional practice. Let's make the game easier so everyone can play better without much effort. I can't waveshine in melee, we should streamline it for me.

Also, if you get punished with your easy method, shanus, and I get punished with my method in the same situation, what is the difference? How does my method destroy air dodging as an option when the outcome was the same?

Perhaps you could make some more start up lag on the ADT so it's just not a good option. I think nerfing an option is better than removing it.

NADT doesn't remove air dodging as an option anymore than shanus' idea.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

If you went to vbrawl expecting to play aggressively only to find you can't effectively, you either pick a character who can do that to some level and deal with it or play something else. I don't really see why we need to shift b+ more towards being an offensive game.

Err... because that's why we play Brawl+ and not VBrawl.

 

[abcool]

How in the world are you buffering in an air dodge? You'd have to be in hitstun for that to happen which means you'd be missing your tech because you have no clue which direction your going in. This means that you simply misjudged your trajectory and tried to tech and airdodged instead.

I know other people play the game, but it just sounds like you messed up. I mean you even explained it in the IRC. You were hit far to the side and tried to tech cuz you missed the stage and air dodged instead. You died for messing up an input when you were missing the stage.

Also, this in no way removes your feel of "easy," I fail to see how that point has anything to do with the rest of your post.[/QUOTE]

I was saying the game feels easy because everything has been streamlined, from L-canceling to teching. I understood what kupo meant when he was talking about adding extra options to have more diversity in the game rather than to only include moves that the character needs.

I strongly believe one of the reasons melee is a solid game isn't because of the competitive factor, but because the game is fun to watch. brawl+ is fun to watch, but i haven't seen super amazing combos pulled off that i can't copy myself. I feel hitstun is too much and I believe that if Pros like m2k and azen play this game alot of 0-death combos will happen at tournies simply because the game is just to easy to make many mistakes and be punished for. It's still feels very safe and expliotable( if that is a word)

Also with the buffering an AD issue. When i was dthrown i press shield when i was about to hit the ground, but i slide off the stage and fox at that time AD, I was also decending to my death at a really fast pace because of it, unable to move or react. Now if i had NADT on that wouldn't have happened.

As for the code you are trying to implement. I like the idea but it only sounds good on paper, I can bring up the same arguement they used with JC grabs and say the best option would always be to wiggle and AD than to AD from the tumble. I believe kupo's way saves alot of trouble and if ur coming from melee to brawl+ it's not very hard to adjust to, to be honest.

Lowering hitstun and getting faster paced gameplay without pros explioting the game with it's high hitstun sounds good to me.

I won't completely go against ya idea, but i feel NADT supports teching and hitstun alot better than what i am seeing now.

 

[goodoldganon]

You didn't read it properly. It doesn't add start–up frames to all air dodges, only when you are in tumble.

Read this again as a big if statement.


IF PLAYER IS IN TUMBLE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE --> ADD ON X (i.e., 2) FRAMES OF START UP
IF PLAYER IS IN ANY OTHER STATE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE –> AIR DODGE AS NORMAL


What this will do:

ABout 30-40% of the cast has options less than 4 frames to which a hitbox is out. The current air dodge has a start up lag of 3 frames until invincibility. By appending on say, 2 frames, this makes air dodging while in tumble a worse option than jumping and air dodging (1 frame followed by 3 frames), jumping and attacking (order of 4-8 frames) and neutral with attacking in which 75% of the cast can attack and have a hitbox out on frame 5.

What this fixes: the overall dominance of air dodging and only mashing air dodge
What this doesnt do:
-nerf normal air dodges, only tumbled air dodges
-remove an option entirely while your being pressured
-it encourages people with good tech skill to wiggle an AD if they are quick enough.

A very solid middle ground to the current AD debate in my eyes. I'm still not sold that air dodging is that OP that we need to change it, but if we deem it so I agree with that change. It adds tech skill to the game, just like the NADT but it also keeps the game easy to learn. Now bear with me on that but look at it like this.

One reason people love Smash games is the depth of the system. Face it, Smash games are very basic and easy to pick up, especially since the inclusion of the C-stick. But what makes Smash games truly special is the hidden depth. It's like they give you a shovel and give you and open field and say 'DIG!' Sure sometimes you find crap and useless tactics but you are bound to hit some gold.

Basically I really fail to see how this idea is bad. It combines your code guys but also keeps the game approachable. It retains the strength of the original air dodge. Whatever, Brawl+ time. I'd be sad if people rejected this code if that's the path we want to take.

 

[kupo15]

Shanus' idea

So I have been thinking and I don't know how I feel about this and I still want to fight for NADT as is without changes because this would be another example of a game mechanic I feel has been streamlined because we can which I really don't like.

If it really comes down to compromising which would be the last resort (that I don't want to take) here would be my compromise.

Use shanus' suggestion instead of NADT but make the delay window rather large like 10 frames or something. Reasoning why:

If your lazy enough to take the simple button press, your trade off is a less effective air dodge escape

If you chose to take the effort to wiggle out, you will be rewarded with a better air dodge

So you either chose convenience over effectiveness or effectiveness over convenience.

But the only problem happens when you exit hit stun closer to the ground. You would instead buffer an AD instead of what would be a tech which is why I don't want to accept this idea now. What would help this case would be adding landing lag to air dodges. But then again, if you want to tech, how do you tech if the tech button is the same as the air dodge button? Doesn't air dodging override teching since you need to be in the tumble to tech?

 

[osh77]

This maybe a bit off topic for the whole conversation, but I was wondering if anyone would agree on buffing peaches up b umbrella to actually being able to grab when she's facing away from the stage. As it is, it seems very half baked on its execution, I know I could l2p and attempt to get better with the up b recovery of hers, but to me it just seems like a small buff that would cure alot of accidental deaths from a poorly designed recovery.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I was saying the game feels easy because everything has been streamlined, from L-canceling to teching.

Also with the buffering an AD issue. When i was dthrown i press shield when i was about to hit the ground, but i slide off the stage and fox at that time AD, I was also decending to my death at a really fast pace because of it, unable to move or react. Now if i had NADT on that wouldn't have happened.

Complaining about the game being streamlined and in effect asking for the teching to be streamlined? lolwut?

If you AD to your death, you are either trying to tech on reflex and not actively assessing your situation, DIing wrong, or miscalculating your trajectory and/or time in tumble.
Note that all of these are a user error, and not a problem with the game. Much less a giant chance of error that needs reworking.

Not meaning to sound rude, but what exactly is the difference in your opinion from removing error from teching and removing error from L cancelling?

 

[Dantarion]

shanus's idea++

 

[leafgreen386]

Isn't hitstun over once your character reaches equilibrium from the launch?

Since no one answered this yet... I will.

The short answer is "no." The long answer is that hitstun and knockback are calculated differently, even though they are both calculated in respect to launch speed. Hitstun is a linear function in respect to launch speed while knockback is an exponential function in respect to launch speed. Well... not quite. In reality, when each is solved for time (in frames), they're both linear functions, but they're not equal.

The really long answer goes something like this:

h = s*(m*l / d)

In this equation, h is hitstun in frames (so it's already solved for time), m is the universal hitstun constant (the value we modify with the hitstun code; the vbrawl default is .4), l is the launch speed of the move, and d is a character specific division constant, which ranges between 32 and 36, where characters that have higher fall speed accelerations have a higher division constant (and therefore suffer less hitstun). The variable s is usually equal to 1.0, however, if the move being used is a spike that launches a grounded opponent, it equals 1.25, since spikes that launch foes off of the ground have 80% of their normal launch speed, but calculate hitstun using the normal launch speed of the move. The very existence of the s value means that it's impossible for hitstun to always equal knockback, but I'll keep going.

v = a*f + l ; v>=0

This equation and the next will look very familiar to you if you've taken physics. This equation calculates the instantaneous velocity, v, of a character on a particular frame, f, where l is once again launch speed and a is some negative constant which represents the rate at which a character slows down from the hit (their acceleration). Note that this is in a zero gravity environment, and if I were to include gravity in this calculation, it would be far more complicated. The restriction saying that v is greater than or equal to zero is just common sense. You don't suddenly start moving backwards once your launch speed wears off; your motion simply stops.

At this point, it's possible to solve the system for time. At v = 0, knockback is over, so solving for f, you get f = l/a. This alone won't prove anything, since we still don't know what a is, nor if it varies among different characters, as hitstun's d value does.

x = 0.5a*(f^2) + l*f ; f<= l/a

This equation represents the total distance you travel due to knockback, x, where f, a, and l are the same values they were in the previous equation. Some people will probably yell at me for not including an x0 value (the initial displacement from a reference point, such as the center of the stage), so feel free to add it if it makes you feel better. The restriction placed of f is less than or equal to l divided by a is because of what I just stated above: knockback is over once v = 0. You don't suddenly reverse directions; you just stop. Conveniently, this also means you can substitute f for -l/a in the equation, and obtain a much simplified version allowing you to find the total displacement at the final frame of kb.

x = 0.5a*(-l/a)^2 + l *(-l/a)
x = 0.5*(l^2)/a + (-l^2)/a
x = (l^2)/2a + 2*(-l^2)/2a

x = -(l^2)/2a

That still leaves the question, though... what is a? Well, not only that, but is "l" really what's being squared in the formula? As it turns out, what is actually being squared is the value l/1000. That is the real launch speed that the game uses to calculate knockback. It uses the launch speed we see at the end of the game screen to calculate hitstun, however. You see, I had calculated a stage builder block to be 20,000 units tall using launch speed and the number of frames of knockback. The actual ingame unit is... 20, as provided to us by spunit.

My original calculation:

v^2 = 2ax + l^2

Another equation that probably looks familiar to anyone who's taken physics, only with v0 being called l. Since we're using v = 0, and we already know that a = -l/f when v = 0 by the initial velocity equation, you can substitute a and solve for x.

0 = 2(-l/f)x + l^2
x = (l^2)*(f/l)/2

x = l*f/2

At this point we need some data. A luigi using upB on a 0% jiggs will produce a launch speed of 4000, knockback will complete in 68 frames, and jiggs travels almost exactly 6.8 blocks high on a tower of stage builder blocks, which are each of a height, b. Plugging in...

x = (4000)*(68)/2
x = 136,000

6.8b = x
6.8b = 136,000

b = 20,000

Except... we know from spunit that b = 20, not 20,000. Since obviously the frame count isn't off by a thousand fold, it must therefore be the launch speed that the game is dividing by 1000. Correcting the calculation:

x = (l/1000)*f/2
136 = ((4000)/1000)*(68)/2

Now that we know x and know that l in the knockback equation is actually l/1000, let's try solving for a... finally.

x = (-(l/1000)^2)/2a
a = (-(l/1000)^2)/(2*x)
a = (-((4000)/1000)^2)/(2*(136))
a = (-(4)^2)/(272)

a = -.0588 or a = -1/17

Which would make the following equations true:

v = -17*f + (l/1000)
f = 17*(l/1000) (when v = 0)
l = 1000*f/17 (when v = 0)
x = -(17/2)*(f^2) + l*f
x = ((l/1000)^2)/38

At the least, this is true for jigglypuff. I have yet to verify that every character has the same acceleration during knockback, although I don't see why they wouldn't. "Weight" is already factored into the launch speed formula, so it wouldn't make sense to account for launch resistance twice.

And to finally answer the question at the top of this post...

f = 17*(l/1000)
f = 17*((4000)/1000)
f = 68

h = s*(m*l / d)
h = (1)*((0.4)*(4000) / (32))
h = 50

The number of frames of knockback and the number of frames of hitstun are not equal given the same launch speed. If you wanted hitstun to equal knockback, you would need to set m to .544. Again, though, note that this doesn't consider gravity in the equation, so typically, characters will begin falling before hitstun wears off.

 

[GHNeko]

Oh god Smash brothers just got serious.

 

[abcool]

Complaining about the game being streamlined and in effect asking for the teching to be streamlined? lolwut?

If you AD to your death, you are either trying to tech on reflex and not actively assessing your situation, DIing wrong, or miscalculating your trajectory and/or time in tumble.
Note that all of these are a user error, and not a problem with the game. Much less a giant chance of error that needs reworking.

Not meaning to sound rude, but what exactly is the difference in your opinion from removing error from teching and removing error from L cancelling?

I was using L-canceling and teching as examples of why the game feels noob friendly, it had nothing to do with the teching error.

Yes i mistimed my tech..but why am i dying from it. I believe with NADT i won't have to exp something like that again.

 

[CloneHat]

Why don't we make it so you must press R once to get out of tumble, and then again to AD. That would delay it without you having to "wiggle", and new people would comprehend it better than having no AD, or having it come out after an unintuitive delay?

 

[Revven]

Why don't we make it so you must press R once to get out of tumble, and then again to AD. That would delay it without you having to "wiggle", and new people would comprehend it better than having no AD, or having it come out after an unintuitive delay?

I actually like this idea, but, kupo probably won't unless it has a specific window you can do it in.

 

[CloneHat]

If you were too close, you wouldn't have enough time to AD and you'd been vulnerable. You would have to start on it far up, or you could double jump and AD.