COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Rudra]

Why don't we make it so you must press R once to get out of tumble, and then again to AD. That would delay it without you having to "wiggle", and new people would comprehend it better than having no AD, or having it come out after an unintuitive delay?

This doesnt sound much more different than "wiggling". You're still pressing a button (in contrast to tapping a direction) to get back to your neutral state. I suppose it would be a decent alternative, but it just seems about the same to me...=/

Also, wouldn't that possibly have an effect on teching as well should you exit hitstun earlier and try to FF and tech during tumble? I'm not too certain, but it sounds as though should you time the L/R input incorrectly, you'll end up in your neutral position on the ground instead of teching.

 

[Revven]

Rudra, that is a very good point, I did not think of teching at all.

 

[shanus]

But then again, if you want to tech, how do you tech if the tech button is the same as the air dodge button? Doesn't air dodging override teching since you need to be in the tumble to tech?

No you tech just fine during the tumble even though they are tied to the same button.

So far, leaf, yeroc, DS, GoG, myself, and multiple others like the idea of this code (although we'll have to see what it plays like obviously).

 

[kupo15]

Rudra, that is a very good point, I did not think of teching at all.

That is the main problem I see. Tying a lot of different actions to the same button is a bad design

No you tech just fine during the tumble even though they are tied to the same button.

So far, leaf, yeroc, DS, GoG, myself, and multiple others like the idea of this code (although we'll have to see what it plays like obviously).

DS? Well, I think the important thing is that you actually realize the problem we were trying to explain to you. If you are going to make this easy to do (man, we like lazy?) can you at least make the delay big enough so that wiggling gives a more effective air dodge? Usually, things that are automatic are not as good as being skilled enough to pull it off without help. Looking at FPS, auto aiming isn't good for head shot accuracy and doesn't replace the skill in being able to perform head shots without help. I am thinking like 6 frames minimum.

You should choose effectiveness over comfort OR comfort(ease) over effectiveness. Not ease AND effectiveness

 

[Deleted member]

That is the main problem I see. Tying a lot of different actions to the same button is a bad design


DS? Well, I think the important thing is that you actually realize the problem we were trying to explain to you. If you are going to make this easy to do (man, we like lazy?) can you at least make the delay big enough so that wiggling gives a more effective air dodge? Usually, things that are automatic are not as good as being skilled enough to pull it off without help. Looking at FPS, auto aiming isn't good for head shot accuracy and doesn't replace the skill in being able to perform head shots without help. I am thinking like 6 frames minimum.

You should choose effectiveness over comfort OR comfort(ease) over effectiveness. Not ease AND effectiveness

And tilting the control stick isn't easy?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Actually, when I supported Shanus's idea I was thinking that 2 frames is too small. I don't know about 6 (maybe. I'm all for something from4-6 frames), but I do believe that wiggling out frame perfectly should give you a larger advantage than....1 frame. Because let's face it, nobody is going to get a frame perfect wiggle consistently, but it IS feasible to get within a couple frames of that given enough practice. Jumping and air dodging would be superior in terms of speed (it can be buffered) but inferior in terms of positioning, while wiggle to airdodge would be viceversa. In some situations attacking or jumping and attacking may be superior to both due to your positioning. Basically, it raises the importance of choosing carefully by uping the stakes of choosing incorrectly.

Normal air dodging would maintain all of it's effectiveness as well.

You get the same depth as the no airdodge during tumble code, but it's not as constraining for people to get used to. That's why I support it anyway.

 

[GameSystem]

So basically you are saying that you can AD out of tumble normally, but if you wiggle the control stick within certain frames, you can get out of hitstun faster? I'm probably not reading this right.

 

[Revven]

No he's saying that we should apply a certain amount of frames with which you cannot AD but, if you wiggle, you get out sooner than you would if you didn't wiggle.

I like the idea personally!

 

[kupo15]

Actually, when I supported Shanus's idea I was thinking that 2 frames is too small. I don't know about 6 (maybe. I'm all for something from4-6 frames), but I do believe that wiggling out frame perfectly should give you a larger advantage than....1 frame. Because let's face it, nobody is going to get a frame perfect wiggle consistently, but it IS feasible to get within a couple frames of that given enough practice. Jumping and air dodging would be superior in terms of speed (it can be buffered) but inferior in terms of positioning, while wiggle to airdodge would be viceversa. In some situations attacking or jumping and attacking may be superior to both due to your positioning. Basically, it raises the importance of choosing carefully by uping the stakes of choosing incorrectly.

Normal air dodging would maintain all of it's effectiveness as well.

You get the same depth as the no airdodge during tumble code, but it's not as constraining for people to get used to. That's why I support it anyway.

Ok, I guess I can see this working and am willing to give this a try but only if there is a distinct advantage to wiggling over pressing the air dodge button

 

[goodoldganon]

If this idea were to truly work best it would have to only apply after exiting hitstun for a few frames. What I mean is say Ganon D-airs someone into the vertical bubble, but it doesn't kill then. He isn't gonna be able to combo off of it so the opponent is just going to float down and see what happens. Maybe they'll airdodge or maybe they will get a chance to tech.

Our problem with ADing is that it is the best option 90% of the time from escaping combos right? Well making sure the AD starts up 5 frames slower after exiting hitstun prevents that but making it ALWAYS apply the 5 extra frames is too big of a nerf in my eyes. That's how I feel at least. It makes ADing out of a combo not the best option all the time, but still keeps the air dodge very powerful.

Also, I'm sorry but you guys are odd. Do you really air dodge instead of tech much or at all? I haven't had that problem since having the teching code for more then 10 minutes...

 

[CloneHat]

If you want teching, I recommend putting the ff in tumble code back on, which would make it a more appealing alternative.

 

[Problem2]

For quite a while I have been against NADT because I felt like being able to airdodge during tumble was necessary to counter certain ledgeguards such as Din's Fire and several of Metaknight's shenanigans. I have recently changed my mind and would like to at least try NADT. The reason is because like Kupo said, it makes taking the offense really risky. If someone does airdodge as you try to attack them, there isn't really much you can do to make up for it. Not saying that there attacking should be easy, but your opponent already has the option of fast falling or jumping to escape, not to mention if your opponent DI's well, your options are limited even more.

Even with NADT, you can still airdodge during a jump, so if you NEED those invincibility frames and wiggling isn't your best thing, jump then airdodge.

Also, on the subject of wiggling. When you try to wiggle, you give up control of your character in the air until you exit tumble because you are not controlling where you are falling. That's my support for wiggling. It does have a consequence, but it might not be a big one if you're really good at it.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I was using L-canceling and teching as examples of why the game feels noob friendly, it had nothing to do with the teching error.

Yes i mistimed my tech..but why am i dying from it. I believe with NADT i won't have to exp something like that again.

o_o

"Game is noob friendly. This is bad.
Want noob friendly teching to stop my mistakes from having consequences"

wat?

It's not like accidental AD deaths were absent from Melee. Hell, they were even present in vBrawl if you played low tier or screwed up royally enough.

Not arguing against NADT as of now (or for it for that matter), but this is a pretty weak reason for wanting it.

 

[CloneHat]

WIGGLING. Why?

Is there any straight forward way to wiggle, or is it just random flailing?
If you want to give up control of your character, frames of lag does that more effectively.

 

[kupo15]

For quite a while I have been against NADT because I felt like being able to airdodge during tumble was necessary to counter certain ledgeguards such as Din's Fire and several of Metaknight's shenanigans. I have recently changed my mind and would like to at least try NADT. The reason is because like Kupo said, it makes taking the offense really risky. If someone does airdodge as you try to attack them, there isn't really much you can do to make up for it. Not saying that there attacking should be easy, but your opponent already has the option of fast falling or jumping to escape, not to mention if your opponent DI's well, your options are limited even more.

Even with NADT, you can still airdodge during a jump, so if you NEED those invincibility frames and wiggling isn't your best thing, jump then airdodge.

Also, on the subject of wiggling. When you try to wiggle, you give up control of your character in the air until you exit tumble because you are not controlling where you are falling. That's my support for wiggling. It does have a consequence, but it might not be a big one if you're really good at it.

That's awesome to hear. Why don't you try my set with it on? http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5940247&postcount=121

Feedback is greatly appreciated. PM me!

WIGGLING. Why?

Is there any straight forward way to wiggle, or is it just random flailing?
If you want to give up control of your character, frames of lag does that more effectively.

Wiggling isn't bad. Its a nice change from pressing buttons haha

Besides the fact that all the other buttons are overloaded with the number of actions assigned to them. It should be called Tapping because that is all your doing.

 

[shanus]

I threw the value 2 out there as a whim, the point is we test out different values haha.

 

[abcool]

o_o

"Game is noob friendly. This is bad.
Want noob friendly teching to stop my mistakes from having consequences"

wat?

It's not like accidental AD deaths were absent from Melee. Hell, they were even present in vBrawl if you played low tier or screwed up royally enough.

Not arguing against NADT as of now (or for it for that matter), but this is a pretty weak reason for wanting it.

Ok smart guy. how am i wanting teching fixed when it already is. I think my arguement leans more toward fixing tumble/AD idk i believe ur arguing with yaself it's obvious everything ur saying to me is irrelevant.

 

[Finns7]

People who spam AD after getting out of hitstun CAN get punished, I like the idea shanus but is it really needed? I could see it if we were selling this game like it was new right out the box, but it is not, too much and it could feel foreign to new players.

Vbrawl players always inquire about WHAT is this and WHY is it in? I answer so you cant plank as good or so shield grabs arnt as OP. With this code I dont really have a good answer because Extremely high skilled players adapt to their opponent and capitalize on AD's. The system you propose could work if it doesnt make the game feel to foreign to new players.

 

[goodoldganon]

People who spam AD after getting out of hitstun CAN get punished, I like the idea shanus but is it really needed? I could see it if we were selling this game like it was new right out the box, but it is not, too much and it could feel foreign to new players.

Vbrawl players always inquire about WHAT is this and WHY is it in? I answer so you cant plank as good or so shield grabs arnt as OP. With this code I dont really have a good answer because Extremely high skilled players adapt to there opponent and capitalize on AD's. The system you propose could work if it doesnt make the game feel to foreign to new players.

QF10 thousand truths.

Shanus's option is the best option we have at this moment time, but I still don't think ADing is OP. If you want to rush headlong, balls to the wall after an opponent is hit, be my guest. People know FULL well the power the AD has in this game and if I see a Falcon chasing me out for blood, you're **** right I'm gonna smash the AD. But at the same time, my friends have occasionally wizened up and continuing with the Falcon example, baited me to AD and punished with a knee.

 

[kupo15]

I could see it if we were selling this game like it was new right out the box, but it is not, too much and it could feel foreign to new players.

This is no excuse. This whole game is foreign to vbrawlers and is not out of the box.

 

[Finns7]

I thought this projects goal was not to make it too foreign to vbrawlers? If this is ever going to seriously get legit we need them more than anyone else.

I dont think they would of tryed it out if it were too different, remember everyone who played at the big tourney events me and Neko went to entered the brawl singles and doubles (vbrawl) and they told me they didnt want to play brawl+ as it is because its a different game and it would throw off their "flow". I had to persuade them that it wasnt that different and once they played and adapted to nasl it was seks, if MWC E wasnt such a big event Im quite sure they would of played all day.

I dont think its realistic to think brawl+ will consume all of vbrawls fanbase but to coexist is possible.

 

[goodoldganon]

I thought this projects goal was not to make it too foreign to vbrawlers? If this is ever going to seriously get legit we need them more than anyone else.

Yup. I think people forget a large chunk of the crowd came to Smash Worlds because of Brawl and that Smash Bros is bigger then it ever was thanks to Brawl.

 

[kupo15]

I thought this projects goal was not to make it too foreign to vbrawlers? If this is ever going to seriously get legit we need them more than anyone else.

Yup. I think people forget a large chunk of the crowd came to Smash Worlds because of Brawl and that Smash Bros is bigger then it ever was thanks to Brawl.

Just so you know... NADT was in both n64 and melee..yea...not entirely foreign.

 

[Finns7]

Thats a different system though, Brawls system works like it or not. It doesnt hinder the game competetively.

 

[goodoldganon]

Dodging in general wasn't in 64 so that axes that example too. So you have 1 game that did it a certain way another that did it differently. Either way we aren't arguing the real issue here. My point stands as before:

Shanus's option is the best option we have at this moment time, but I still don't think ADing is OP. If you want to rush headlong, balls to the wall after an opponent is hit, be my guest. People know FULL well the power the AD has in this game and if I see a Falcon chasing me out for blood, you're **** right I'm gonna smash the AD. But at the same time, my friends have occasionally wizened up and continuing with the Falcon example, baited me to AD and punished with a knee.

 

[MK26]

Just so you know... NADT was in both n64 and melee..yea...not entirely foreign.

Hell 'No Airdodge in the Air' is in Smash 64...

And who would want to airdodge to escape a combo in Melee?

Anyway, 2 frames is nothing...you've got a delay of 1/30 of a second before you can airdodge...big whoop
I still like Shanus' option though

 

[kupo15]

Dodging in general wasn't in 64 so that axes that example too. So you have 1 game that did it a certain way another that did it differently. Either way we aren't arguing the real issue here. My point stands as before:

Hell 'No Airdodge in the Air' is in Smash 64...

And who would want to airdodge to escape a combo in Melee?

Anyway, 2 frames is nothing...you've got a delay of 1/30 of a second before you can airdodge...big whoop
I still like Shanus' option though

Even though there was no air dodging, it still make teching situations prevalent if you did nothing when you landed. You had to either wiggle, jump, or z cancel a move or else you would have teched which is the second reason why NADT is important. Just because their was no air dodge doesn't mean it was useless

 

[MK26]

Even though there was no air dodging, it still make teching situations prevalent if you did nothing when you landed. You had to either wiggle, jump, or z cancel a move or else you would have teched which is the second reason why NADT is important. Just because their was no air dodge doesn't mean it was useless

Wait
What?

Just because you couldnt airdodge doesnt mean 'not being able to airdodge while in tumble' is useless?

 

[kupo15]

Wait
What?

Just because you couldnt airdodge doesnt mean 'not being able to airdodge while in tumble' is useless?

I know it doesn't seem like it makes sense. For the air dodging problem, of course it wasn't there, but for the teching aspect to the code, its the same. The concept of wiggling was still there.

 

[CloneHat]

Maybe we're taking the wrong approach. All kupo wants is to make the air dodge less spammy and powerful (I hope), and I don't think starting lag or just making it harder to do is as straightforward as having a PUNISHABLE AIR DODGE, as in, with end/landing lag. That way if your opponents anticipate an AD, they will hold off the attack and punish accordingly during your lag.

 

[kupo15]

Maybe we're taking the wrong approach. All kupo wants is to make the air dodge less spammy and powerful (I hope), and I don't think starting lag or just making it harder to do is as straightforward as having a PUNISHABLE AIR DODGE, as in, with end/landing lag. That way if your opponents anticipate an AD, they will hold off the attack and punish accordingly during your lag.

Punishing the air dodge is not my concern. That's easy to do. The main point of making the AD less appealing if pressured is to be able to position them at a specific spot on the stage. Even if your air dodge gets punished, your location is drastically different then where you exited hitstun which makes better combos and string set ups nonexistent and dull. If I can't effectively pressure you in the air without you easily air dodging, despite my efforts, which puts you in a location on the stage where I didn't want you to be (thus acting in a way to remove that option, yet you can do it anyway), that is a problem.

 

[CloneHat]

Punishing the air dodge is not my concern. That's easy to do. The main point of making the AD less appealing if pressured is to be able to position them at a specific spot on the stage. Even if your air dodge gets punished, your location is drastically different then where you exited hitstun which makes better combos and string set ups nonexistent and dull. If I can't effectively pressure you in the air without you easily air dodging, despite my efforts, which puts you in a location on the stage where I didn't want you to be (thus acting in a way to remove that option, yet you can do it anyway), that is a problem.

Good thinking.

 

[PosthumusES]

Move to plussery set.

 

[Dantarion]

If I can't effectively pressure you in the air without you easily air dodging, despite my efforts, which puts you in a location on the stage where I didn't want you to be (thus acting in a way to remove that option, yet you can do it anyway), that is a problem.

I read that as "If I try to combo you, and you airdodge and get away from me, that is a problem".
You aren't comboing good enough if you aren't hitting them before they can airdodge.

 

[Princz15]

hey can someone help me out? so i just tried out the CSS codes and evrythings fine. it seems to be working very well. The only problem that i cant select Sheik in the zelda/sheik portrait. And i dont want to seperate them i just wanted to seperate Samus and zero suit which i did oh and the trainers pokemon which i also did but i wanna kepp zelda and sheik in the same icon. any idea what i could have done wrong thats not letting me pick her?

 

[Starscream]

I read that as "If I try to combo you, and you airdodge and get away from me, that is a problem".
You aren't comboing good enough if you aren't hitting them before they can airdodge.

But then the combo game degenerates mainly into combos while your opponent is in hitstun and that gets old and repetitive very fast.

 

[XSilvenX]

I'm not familiar with the original argument, but I will say that I agree with this. Don't forget that one of the major complaints with gravity was that it hampered the off-stage game that vBrawl allowed. A few people were against NAS because they felt it promoted "passive" edge-guarding by opening up those easy kills. I will concede that the ledge grab range is rather teleport-tastic at times, but it not only prevents thoughtless edge-guards as mentioned above, but it preserves the benefit of going out after someone instead of waiting by the ledge.

I don't know about you guys, but I think it's stupid that Marth can repeatedly poke you into oblivion in Melee from the ledge. Honestly I don't know if he can still do that or not in B+, but I'd hate to fuel that fire for him or any other character by decreasing ledge-snap range.

Completely agreed.

This is a competitive project and we should remove all casual aspects from it. Why leave casual things behind for the sake of making it casual friendly when this project is for competitive crowd? Seems like a waste of time to work on a project not geared towards the competitive crowd 100%. And I think my video proves that I don't want to make it harder for the hell of it. It seems like you want to keep things for the casuals for the hell of it.

Not at all. You obviously didn't pay attention when I said it would make certain characters worse and ******** edgeguard tactics even more potent but whatever, you guys do whatever you want...you shoot my argument down with little to no reasoning (I see you do that a lot...at least if you're gonna disagree with something explain yourself. Don't feel like you can exempt the explanation just because you are at a higher position than most of us when it comes to Brawl+ suggestions) and you guys say everything is open for discussion? Pssh. It seems like only a few players have real input on this but hey I didn't come here to talk about that...

I just don't see how shortening the ledge grab distance will effect gameplay in a good way other than forcing people knocked off the stage to get closer to the ledge so that charge fsmash edgeguards/dtilt spikes/etc are easier to pull off for the person on the edgeguarding side. In reality, it's a very minuscule aspect of edgeguarding so it most likely won't effect the outcome of a match all that much (it's hard to tell). All I'll say is in all my time playing Brawl I've never once heard of anyone complaining that the ledge grab distance is too forgiving. This is a first lol. But hey at least the game is more pro right? . Let's see those "casuals" grab those ledges now

 

[Greenpoe]

Not at all. You obviously didn't pay attention when I said it would make certain characters worse and ******** edgeguard tactics even more potent but whatever, you guys do whatever you want...you shoot my argument down with little to no reasoning (I see you do that a lot...at least if you're gonna disagree with something explain yourself. Don't feel like you can exempt the explanation just because you are at a higher position than most of us when it comes to Brawl+ suggestions) and you guys say everything is open for discussion? Pssh. It seems like only a few players have real input on this but hey I didn't come here to talk about that...

I just don't see how shortening the ledge grab distance will effect gameplay in a good way other than forcing people knocked off the stage to get closer to the ledge so that charge fsmash edgeguards/dtilt spikes/etc are easier to pull off for the person on the edgeguarding side. In reality, it's a very minuscule aspect of edgeguarding so it most likely won't effect the outcome of a match all that match (it's hard to tell). All I'll say is in all my time playing Brawl I've never once heard of anyone complaining that the ledge grab distance is too forgiving. This is a first lol. But hey at least the game is more pro right? . Let's see those "casuals" grab those ledges now

This. There's no good reason why the ledge grab range should be altered which cannot be fixed by another means. Reasons have been weak, such as that it helps stop planking when the ledge grab range is simply one aspect of what makes planking effective. The players who want the altered ledge grab distance just want it be like Melee, but in reality, it makes off-stage fights more viable, since characters like Falcon can jump off and easily get back despite a terrible recovery.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Altering the ledge grab range can also limit some options. Snake might not be able to safely sweetspot the edge by hugging the stage with a rising airdodge after cypher. Other things like recovering a bit lower after a dair, sometimes underneath the edge. Potentially a safe mix-up. Basically these are good options that don't need to be removed. Good options that can be taken advantage of smartly does not equal anti-competitive.

 

[CloneHat]

This. There's no good reason why the ledge grab range should be altered which cannot be fixed by another means. Reasons have been weak, such as that it helps stop planking when the ledge grab range is simply one aspect of what makes planking effective. The players who want the altered ledge grab distance just want it be like Melee, but in reality, it makes off-stage fights more viable, since characters like Falcon can jump off and easily get back despite a terrible recovery.

I like that, off stage battles are high risk/reward and add excitement to the game. NASL keeps planking off fine IMO.