COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Rkey]

I don't completely understand your example. "I can't do an aerial..." what do you mean? Also, it all depends on how much time you have before the uair lands. Don't forget you could also fast fall so that the uair misses which is instantaneous.

NADT does add to the game but the I was saying how wiggling isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be. Keeping pits side b going...now THAT is a pain and more painful than wiggling.

But you tell me. How do you prevent someone from air dodging when they are invincible? Unless, of course, you want your entire brawl+ combo game to be nothing BUT hitstun activate combos as opposed to seamlessly interweaving true combos and strings as one whole.

I mean that in 5 frames, Ness will hit me. I haven't got time for an aerial and then an AD, I want to AD right away. And true, I could FF... But I don't wanna

We're not getting anywhere, and our argument is taking a hell lot of place. What You said now makes a lot of sense though, but couldn't this be received even without the NADT? I mean, it's still inhumanly possible to AD exactly where the hitstun ends, and doesn't the AD have ending lag? If you always, like the CPU's, AD when hitstun ends, you'll easily be punished for that. Maybe if we made it so that AD takes you to freefall? Hmm... Wow, that's actually a pretty good idea I think, and here I am editing this when I already wrote the last section of my reply >_> maybe this would make everyone more gimpable though, hmm... i will leave this to you guys. Well, anyhow:

We want the same thing Kupo, that stands clear: I do not want the combos to be all hitstun, DI-ing, FF-ing, teching etc. to escape has to be part of the game. This argument comes form the discussion wether AD is OP or not. The NADT means to nerf the AD in order to let forth the other options, correct? I just don't see how AD is OP right now, so I can't agree with you, that's our problem.

I'm gonna rest this argument now, it's 23:20 here in Sweden. Hopefully we'll reach an agreement soon.


Edit: Everyone working with B+ is still awesome, you really are, I love you. Goodnight.

 

[kupo15]

I mean that in 5 frames, Ness will hit me. I haven't got time for an aerial and then an AD, I want to AD right away.

I was saying that if you are not in a rush, you can simply aerial to get out of tumble to be prepared for the next hit or tap once if its not an immediate threat.

And true, I could FF... But I don't wanna

You got yourself in that situation. Tough.

We're not getting anywhere, and our argument is taking a hell lot of place. What You said now makes a lot of sense though, but couldn't this be received even without the NADT? I mean, it's still inhumanly possible to AD exactly where the hitstun ends, and doesn't the AD have ending lag?

You can buffer an air dodge and depending on what buffer setting you are on, you have upwards of 10 frames of error. Even at 2 buffering, its still possible to be frame perfect with an air dodge due to buffering. As I said earlier, punishing an AD is not the problem, its the location of where the punishment happens is whats the problem. Seeing how you can AD perfectly and change your position drastically without a thought and there isn't anything the aggressor can do about it makes it a little OP. With NADT, you have some decision making to do and see if its worth the risk to AD.

We want the same thing Kupo, that stands clear: I do not want the combos to be all hitstun, DI-ing, FF-ing, teching etc. to escape has to be part of the game. This argument comes form the discussion wether AD is OP or not. The NADT means to nerf the AD in order to let forth the other options, correct? I just don't see how AD is OP right now, so I can't agree with you, that's our problem.

Well, your entire combo game is going to be biased towards hitstun only combos without the NADT because you don't have the confidence or the ability to set up nice strings because of how the air dodge functions. If you don't use NADT, your only sense of a better combo system would be higher hitstun but that still doesn't fix the problem. Here is NADT alternative:

We lower hitstun and add NADT. The loss of hitstun is made up in tumble "stun" (only affects air dodging) which requires your opponent to make a decision. Should I wiggling out to air dodge, or should i try to get out with a jump/attack or FF so I can tech. This makes the combos more easily defended by the opponent without giving them a huge reward for easy actions. It will be up to the aggressor to properly pressure and their ability to remove options to continue the combo and make the combo more effective Hitstun is lower, but in turn, tumble "stun" is there. With NADT, the opponent has several options which still put them in a bad position, but can prove to make matches more dynamic.

So as you can see, its quite difficult to explain, but if you want to try my altered set on the plussery's which has this, it might make things more clear for you.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5940247&postcount=121

 

[CloneHat]

Basically, you only want 2 hit combos, and the rest are completely reliant on your opponent messing up?

 

[GHNeko]

Well, your entire combo game is going to be biased towards hitstun only combos without the NADT because you don't have the confidence or the ability to set up nice strings because of how the air dodge functions.

Woah woah woah what.

That's pretty assumptive of you man, and really condescending. :/

Just because someone wants an "entire combo game biased towards hitstun only combos without NADT" doesnt mean they dont ahve the confidence or the ability to set up "nice" strings, they could prefer no NADT for a number of reasons.

-___-

 

[kupo15]

Basically, you only want 2 hit combos, and the rest are completely reliant on your opponent messing up?

I don't want 64esk combos. I don't want high hitstun to be a crutch to make really nice combos. I want combos to be harder to do and they will be more than 2 hit combos. Its like, a 2 hit combo, then you need to work to get the next hit which sets up for maybe a 3 hit combo ect.

I don't want the combo game be mostly hitstun oriented combos and the post hitstun comboing (aka strings) to be lackluster. I want a smooth flow inbetween the true combos and strings which is something I feel you will not get without NADT

Woah woah woah what.

That's pretty assumptive of you man, and really condescending. :/

Just because someone wants an "entire combo game biased towards hitstun only combos without NADT" doesnt mean they dont ahve the confidence or the ability to set up "nice" strings, they could prefer no NADT for a number of reasons.

-___-

I plain and simple don't see how the types of combos you will see without NADT and high hitstun will be more diverse and exciting as the ones with lower hitstun and NADT. Instead of a buffed hitstun (offense) and buffed escape options (defense), I'm going for a nerfed offense and defense so that that high hitstun and air dodging don't do the work for you. High hitstun is a crutch for the offense and the escape options without NADT is a crutch for the defense. So, less reliance on game mechanics, and more reliance on your skills as a smasher. It is a different outlook on the combo game.

 

[abcool]

Agreed. brawl feels too easy when it comes to combos. ESPECIALLY coming from melee. I think this games hold ppls hands to much...work for it already. oh yes i apologise for the miss tech thing lol my mistake...ps NADT still owns

 

[kupo15]

Agreed. brawl feels too easy when it comes to combos. ESPECIALLY coming from melee. I think this games hold ppls hands to much...work for it already. oh yes i apologise for the miss tech thing lol my mistake...ps NADT still owns

Its also a plus how it partially fixes the stun from ganon's up b move.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

What about having the AD remove all of your remaining jumps and only allow one AD after you leave the ground?

You can AD to get out of a combo, but if you do it at the wrong time and your AD is punished, you're combo bait with only DI and your aerials to save you.

Then again, that could hurt heavies further and make heavily disjointed aerials like Marth and MK's broken good. =/

Just pitching ideas here. >_>

 

[abcool]

Its also a plus how it partially fixes the stun from ganon's up b move.

I could have sworn ganon upb takes away the opponents second jump....idk it happened in vbrawl...but if it didn't maybe it could be his buff...

Instead of nerfing the AD just try to use NADT..that with less hitstun means pros won't 0-death you at tournies. or am i wrong..well don't make it easy for um

 

[shanus]

How about we try this code which makes air dodging during tumble a worse option like I proposed and like every broomer liked the sound of?

i fail to see why this is forgotten

 

[leafgreen386]

How about we try this code which makes air dodging during tumble a worse option like I proposed and like every broomer liked the sound of?

i fail to see why this is forgotten

This. Everything I'm seeing kupo say can be accomplished by this code.

However, if the idea about reducing gravity during an AD comes to fruition, then even that much may not be necessary.

 

[kupo15]

It better be a big enough difference so that wiggling gives you the advantage. And maybe you all should give this a try to see how much the air dodge really impacts the game. You know...just for kicks.



No air dodging
4A000000 8077F780
D2000000 00000004
2C030000 41820010
2C1C0021 40820008
3B800033 60000000
939E0038 00000000

 

[Swordplay]

How about we try this code which makes air dodging during tumble a worse option like I proposed and like every broomer liked the sound of?

i fail to see why this is forgotten

Becauese the question is how????


The only thing I could think of would be to slightly increase the speed of AD so AD ends sooner.

OR

Only allow 1 AD in the air. (refreshes upon reaching a ledge or ground of course)

 

[shanus]

Becauese the question is how????


The only thing I could think of would be to slightly increase the speed of AD so AD ends sooner.

OR

Only allow 1 AD in the air. (refreshes upon reaching a ledge or ground of course)

As posted earlier:

If actionID=tumble AND the player inputs air dodge, add X frames of startup lag to the beginning of the air dodge.

 

[Rkey]

Maybe it's time for a poll, since we have a multitude of options now:

- NADT
- Speed up AD so it ends sooner
- Make AD remove all your jumps
- Make AD put you in freefall
- Add som beginning lag to AD
- Lower gravity during AD
- Allow only one AD in the air

It's funny where you get after a full nights sleep, I actually might have started to agree with Kupo slightly At least I see the problem from both perspectives now.

Btw, lowering gravity for AD, wouldn't that result in a rising AD make you go... very high?

 

[Shadic]

Beginning lag to Air dodge during tumble. Shanus' idea all the way.

 

[Rudra]

Maybe it's time for a poll, since we have a multitude of options now

This.

- NADT
- Speed up AD so it ends sooner
- Add some beginning lag to AD

Those are probably our best options in dealing with the matter imo. I'm still for NADT since it means that we do not have to speed up certain setup attacks, use less hitstun (and not rely on it as "a crutch for combos" as Kupo stated), and actually weaken ADing without directly tampering with its properties, bringing it on par with other escape options (though jumping and ADing is still a pretty good escape option, you are in the air [for some characters, their worst position defensively] and without your second jump, so it can be risky anyways I guess).

Shanus, I like your idea, but what's the difference between the time it takes to wiggle to your neutral position and AD in comparison to the startup lag of ADing in tumble you proposed?

Spoiler

Also, if NADT is chosen to be used in the end, someone really should look into making your character "flash" the moment you get out of hitstun to make it more apparant when you've left it. It can be quite difficult to tell sometimes.

- Make AD remove all your jumps
- Make AD put you in freefall

This...If I'm allowed to say...sounds like MAD without the "benefits" it brought to the ground game. The first one means that ADing is pretty much the worst option available and if it is punished and you're sent offstage, you're pretty much done. As for the second one, what about characters who have multiple jumps and ROB should they decide to AD before being spiked offstage? Something like that could really hurt them.

- Lower gravity during AD
- Allow only one AD in the air

Btw, lowering gravity for AD, wouldn't that result in a rising AD make you go... very high?

^ My thoughts exactly. What would lowering gravity during an AD accomplish?

Allowing one AD in the Air? What about characters who can chase you in the air and keep you there with high mobility and quick aerials (Jiggs, Squirtle, and MK come to mind). Sure, you'd be able to jump/Attack them as an escape option (Good luck with MK lol), but if you AD anytime while you're there and mess up, you're pretty much defenseless otherwise. (Not so sure if jumping and ADing would change it, but I could be wrong)

EDIT: The Night Cat is also correct, though NADT also serves to balance AD's effectiveness in comparison to the other escape options. NADT's "Wiggle" input can be buffered too, so tapping a direction to get neutral shouldnt be too hard anyways. The only issue I see with NADT is actually knowing when you have left hitstun so that you can stop DI'ing and actually tap to get neutral (though a higher buffer does resolve this a little).

 

[The Night Cat]

I seem to be in the minority, I agree with kupo. AFter playing kupo's custom set I can see how we haven't really been investigating the game as whole. We have been looking at all these specific actions and how they work with certain circumstances etc. When we should have still been fixing the physics and hit system with global changes.

For me the main difference I noticed when playing kupo's set is that you get to use alot more ground moves in comboes instead of having to always chase most of the cast high into the air where alot of characters options are resticted and the flow of battle is interrupted while everyone gets back down to the level.

In regards to NADT, why are people objecting to have a 1 frame lag with good execution(NADT) versus always having a default 2,3,4 or 5 frames of lag on startup of airdodge from tumble. No air-dodge from tumble isn't really about air-dodging anyway, it's about teching and guaranteeing that you tech when you want to instead of air-dodging.

 

[shanus]

In regards to NADT, why are people objecting to have a 1 frame lag with good execution(NADT) versus always having a default 2,3,4 or 5 frames of lag on startup of airdodge from tumble. No air-dodge from tumble isn't really about air-dodging anyway, it's about teching and guaranteeing that you tech when you want to instead of air-dodging.

I still don't see how that last point makes any sense. In my 2323489238934298423 hours of play I have never, ever had that happen (im pretty sure the only case I know of this happening is abcool where he missed the level which is player error anyway, and you'll notice every time this is brought up 8 players respond to this being flat out untrue).

Without NADT, guess what, you can still tech during tumble trivially! There is no air dodge override, its just the same exact thing.

Night cat, we had a debate and the AD nerf I proposed allows a user to mash AD if they want to, but makes it less appealing of an option. That is the problem people want solved, as air dodging is currently the best option for a majority of the cast (although 30-40% of the cast have great attacks out of tumble). If they wiggle, they get a better option but require better execution to do so.

read this again:

Read this again as a big if statement.


IF PLAYER IS IN TUMBLE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE --> ADD ON X (i.e., 2) FRAMES OF START UP
IF PLAYER IS IN ANY OTHER STATE –> PLAYER PRESSES AIR DODGE –> AIR DODGE AS NORMAL


What this will do:

ABout 30-40% of the cast has options less than 4 frames to which a hitbox is out. The current air dodge has a start up lag of 3 frames until invincibility. By appending on say, 2 frames, this makes air dodging while in tumble a worse option than jumping and air dodging (1 frame followed by 3 frames), jumping and attacking (order of 4-8 frames) and neutral with attacking in which 75% of the cast can attack and have a hitbox out on frame 5.

What this fixes: the overall dominance of air dodging and only mashing air dodge
What this doesnt do:
-nerf normal air dodges, only tumbled air dodges
-remove an option entirely while your being pressured
-it encourages people with good tech skill to wiggle an AD if they are quick enough.

 

[slimpyman]

How about Platforms.... It would be sweet to roll off a platform.... People perch above waitin for the getup attack, or roll... people camp undeerneath a platform waitin for the one on a platform above.. We should be able to Roll off a platform from the layin position!!! rofl. on a sidenote. combos are aplenty.. to much

 

[Almas]

One of the flaws (or perhaps features, to be less harsh) of Brawl+ is that it is very easy to pick up the aggressive game - to learn which moves combo and how to use them reasonably well. However, the importance of playing a good defensive game (DIing well, avoiding hits) is heightened, but the learning curve for it remains the same (or if anything, it is harder).

The result is that while the game may very well be balanced at higher levels of play, newer players can quickly find combos that they believe to be unescapable or overpowered long before they develop the skill necessary to realise that this is far from the truth.

Of course, I don't see this as a problem that can be (or perhaps should be) overcome, because it is very important in determining the skill level of the game. However, I certainly think that it means we should think twice before adding anything in that makes defense harder.

Note that I'd like to differentiate between camping and defense. Camping is intentionally avoiding a direct approach, relying solely on projectiles and punishments. It should be tricky but viable. Defense is dodging moves to allow for a counterattack, prudent teching and DIing well, and should be simple enough to allow players to be choosing their response rather than trying to pull any of them off.

 

[Problem2]

I like NADT and the frame delay for AD. I see the advantages of both.

NADT forces you to jump or wiggle in order to use your air dodge, otherwise you get to remain immobilized until you reach the ground. This puts a lot of emphasis on DI and knowing when to fast fall. It's a great way to do things

However, if for some reason that doesn't seem to work out well, I would use the additional frames for AD. The only purpose I could see for this though is to force the opponent to have to put some prediction skills to use in order to successfully dodge. This allows the offense to do mixups such as heading towards the opponent, bait the AD and catch them on the ground. You can do this anyways if you're opponent is being careless with his AD, but all it takes is some paying attention for the defender to avoid this situation.

 

[Dantarion]

The reason I don't like NADT is this: If you can just wiggle out and airdodge just as fast, then at an intermediate level of play, people will already be wiggling so **** hard that it will be as if NADT already existed. It also adds unnesesary smashing on the control stick, and removes a defensive option from vBrawl.

Plenty of people will be thinking "WTF, why can't I airdodge".

If we add startup lag to airdodges out of tumble, or make so that you have to be out of hitstun for xframes before you can airdodge, the same result will happen, but it will be completly transparent to the player.

 

[Rkey]

This time I got it:

Guys guys, listen. If we make the startuplag equal or slightly more to the time it would take to wiggle the AD, would not everyone be happy? I mean, yeah, you can AD from tumble, but let's say it has 3-4 extra frames of lag. If you know how to wiggle properly though, you could get past that lag in just 1 or 2 frames and then AD, skipping that lag. With this, players newer to b+ will still AD regularly, and more hardcore players will learn the full mechanic of wiggling and get those 1-2 frames less lag!

This is like the ultimate compromise because those who don't want to wiggle don't have to care, but if you learn how to you can AD 1-2 frames earlier than you would otherwise have to. PRESTO!

 

[Revven]

Why not combine the two?

Add lag frames and have NADT, people who wiggle out get out sooner (as if without the frame lag) and those who don't wiggle get punished or have to jump.

'Course some people might hate it with the combination but the frame lag would help those adjust to wiggling so they actually get rewarded for getting out. This would add a reward system and give more incentive to wiggle than to jump out most of the time.

At least, I think this would work.

 

[Rkey]

OMFG

Falco400 we posted like the same thing at the same time XDXD

Well, close too at least, but still:

OMFGROFLMAO XDXD

Edit: Hivemind works across the earth apparently o.O

 

[Dantarion]

You guys are thinking in the right direction.

We need to create things that don't horribly punish a player who doesn't care about them, and benefits someone who does care about them.

With the changes you describe, I can not care about wiggling, and still have the same options availible to me now, except I might get combo'd a little more because im airdodging a little later than I would normally,
or.....
I can learn to wiggle out so I can airdodge early and get out of combos.

WIN WIN.

 

[Rkey]

You guys are thinking in the right direction.

We need to create things that don't horribly punish a player who doesn't care about them, and benefits someone who does care about them.

With the changes you describe, I can not care about wiggling, and still have the same options availible to me now, except I might get combo'd a little more because im airdodging a little later than I would normally,
or.....
I can learn to wiggle out so I can airdodge early and get out of combos.

WIN WIN.

It sure as hell is! Seriously, mental five Falco400! *SMACK*

This with a tiny discussion on how many frames it should really be here and there, and I think we got it! I want this in the next beta, it includes both options as said so everyone's happy ; )

But hey, the treat of learning how to wiggle should not be that big, but big enough for people to learn it. This is of course if you perform it perfectly, and we need to look into whether it's possible to buffer a wiggle. 2-3 frames less lag for wiggling?

 

[Revven]

It sure as hell is! Seriously, mental five Falco400! *SMACK*

This with a tiny discussion on how many frames it should really be here and there, and I think we got it! I want this in the next beta, it includes both options as said so everyone's happy ; )

But hey, the treat of learning how to wiggle should not be that big, but big enough for people to learn it. This is of course if you perform it perfectly, and we need to look into whether it's possible to buffer a wiggle. 2-3 frames less lag for wiggling?

Funny thing is, this was already shanus's idea (he just told me on the IRC). Sooooooo.... we were just repeating him...

 

[Rkey]

Funny thing is, this was already shanus's idea (he just told me on the IRC). Sooooooo.... we were just repeating him...

****it Shanus, I thought I was the one being clever!!! -.-

Well, good thing this all seems like it could settle at this point, I really should stop believing that I can make a difference, it's always the same failure >_>


It's GG guys, sry I can't help you with the code... going to a party now, c u around!

 

[cAm8ooo]

The extra ironic thing is that Shanus mentioned this on the boards a few days ago and everyone liked it. Then for some reason everyone forgot about it.

 

[grim mouser]

I assume this is already known, but the Falcon/Ganon Down-B fix doesn't return your second jump. It allows you to double jump if you haven't already, but you don't get another.

 

[shanus]

Falco400 and Rkey, the method I posted does those exact changes. I'm glad you both like the sounds of it.

 

[Revven]

I assume this is already known, but the Falcon/Ganon Down-B fix doesn't return your second jump. It allows you to double jump if you haven't already, but you don't get another.

It doesn't work with the double GCT method IIRC, you need to add the code spunit made to make it so codes like these work.

 

[shanus]

Has anyone tried putting them in the SD loader instead of the bigGCT?

 

[GameSystem]

How about you can AD out of tumble normally, but if you imput it early you get penalty frames and can't do it again. The same as teching. You can only press R or L once within w/e amount of frames and if you miss it you can't do it again. Except for AD you add like 3 frames or something.
Please be reasonable guys. Most air dodges have like 2-4 frames of start up and have ending lag as well. If you add like 3 frames of lag before you can AD, that always makes it a HORRIBLE option.
If you just leave it as is, but add in penalty frames if you mess up, it'll be fine for everyone.

 

[shanus]

How about you can AD out of tumble normally, but if you imput it early you get penalty frames and can't do it again. The same as teching. You can only press R or L once within w/e amount of frames and if you miss it you can't do it again. Except for AD you add like 3 frames or something.
Please be reasonable guys. Most air dodges have like 2-4 frames of start up and have ending lag as well. If you add like 3 frames of lag before you can AD, that always makes it a HORRIBLE option.
If you just leave it as is, but add in penalty frames if you mess up, it'll be fine for everyone.

Thats why we will test the frame addition for tunable ADs. Remember, you'll be able to wiggle out too. Adding 3 frames would make invinc come out on frame 6. If you wiggle, you could be out on frame 1-2 and then be out frame 4. That option is one I thought of before too which I also like.

We'll see how the code works after its made. It may suck, or may be perfect!

 

[CloneHat]

A 2 frame difference isn't much. How about 5 frames or something?

 

[shanus]

A 2 frame difference isn't much. How about 5 frames or something?

The point is, when we get the code, we'll test the different values haha

 

[trojanpooh]

Sorry to bother with semi unrelated question, but can somebody either help me with the values of ness's bat, or set up the code that would keep his bat exactly the same but have the screeching noise? Or is the Ness's bat code on the first page exactly that?