COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[leafgreen386]

A five frame difference is absolutely huge. I'm not sure you realize just how much five frames really is, but five frames can very very easily make the difference between a combo working and not working. Do you have any idea how many more combos you could connect if you had five more frames of hitstun to work with? Even three frames is pretty considerable, and I'd say that's a sizable enough advantage to encourage wiggling out. I don't think I would want to go any higher than four frames.

trojanpooh: the code in the OP does exactly that

 

[trojanpooh]

Alright, thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[Almas]

You can't put things like the second jump recovery in the SD loader - they will only execute once that way and for them to function they must be executing repeatedly.

 

[Swordplay]

Maybe it's time for a poll, since we have a multitude of options now:

- NADT
- Speed up AD so it ends sooner
- Make AD remove all your jumps
- Make AD put you in freefall
- Add som beginning lag to AD
- Lower gravity during AD
- Allow only one AD in the air

It's funny where you get after a full nights sleep, I actually might have started to agree with Kupo slightly At least I see the problem from both perspectives now.

Btw, lowering gravity for AD, wouldn't that result in a rising AD make you go... very high?

NADT......we probably won't go there
Speed up AD so it ends sooner......good but doesn't really fix the problem. (were aiming at fixing the begging not end)
Make AD remove all your jumps......unfair to characters with multiple jumps and pressure games
Make AD put you in freefall........Characters with zair can just zair out of airdodge to avoid free fall (also hurts multi jump characters)
Lower gravity during AD.......I think that could really mess a few things up.
Allow only one AD in the air.....hurts multi jump characters


- Add some beginning lag to AD if in tumble (probably our best option. This is what we should do to settle the debate)


This is defiantly the direction I wanted to go. I brought up a few pages back the idea of you can AD during tumble but only after a specific time frame. This is defiantly the best option.

Way to use your head Shanus. My vote would go for 2-3 frames

 

[leafgreen386]

Lower gravity during AD.......I think that could really mess a few things up.

Since this seems to be confusing a lot of people, I guess I should elaborate that what we mean when we say "lower gravity in airdodge" is actually "lower down gravity in airdodge." Upgrav would remain the same, so you wouldn't get any insane super jumps with it.

 

[Swordplay]

Since this seems to be confusing a lot of people, I guess I should elaborate that what we mean when we say "lower gravity in airdodge" is actually "lower down gravity in airdodge." Upgrav would remain the same, so you wouldn't get any insane super jumps with it.

No no. I understood that. But just by throwing the idea around in my head I personally wouldn't like it.

I use AD not just as a defensive tool but as an offensive 1 as well. I SHAD approach with slower characters and zair out of it w/ samus link and TL (3 characters I play a lot) frequently so I can only imagine that would really hurt me and my style.

I suppose some of you will just say GTFO and learn2play and to that I'll just shrug.

It might be okay if you made it so that this only happened during tumble but then you have 2 types of AD's and things would get fairly stupid.

 

[trojanpooh]

The Ness thing didn't work...is there a not ridiculous line limit I don't know about?

 

[kupo15]

Also, if NADT is chosen to be used in the end, someone really should look into making your character "flash" the moment you get out of hitstun to make it more apparant when you've left it. It can be quite difficult to tell sometimes.

Well, what makes NADT effective the difficulty in determining when you go into tumble for certain hitstun animations. Twirling hitstun is easy while spastic ones are not.

The only issue I see with NADT is actually knowing when you have left hitstun so that you can stop DI'ing and actually tap to get neutral (though a higher buffer does resolve this a little)

Same as above

I still don't see how that last point makes any sense. In my 2323489238934298423 hours of play I have never, ever had that happen (im pretty sure the only case I know of this happening is abcool where he missed the level which is player error anyway, and you'll notice every time this is brought up 8 players respond to this being flat out untrue).

Abcool was confused (which is ok) so you are correct. He was talking about missing the tech then sliding off the stage and air dodging. This was also in melee. If only sliding off the stage in this mannor put you in the tumble

Without NADT, guess what, you can still tech during tumble trivially! There is no air dodge override, its just the same exact thing.

Oh yea? But don't you have to be at the perfect height for that to work? Can't you not press the teching button 15 frames before and still tech without going into the standing animation? Or do you actually air dodge then tech?

The reason I don't like NADT is this: If you can just wiggle out and airdodge just as fast, then at an intermediate level of play, people will already be wiggling so **** hard that it will be as if NADT already existed. It also adds unnesesary smashing on the control stick, and removes a defensive option from vBrawl.

The thing is, you can't wiggle out and air dodge faster than just air dodging so this point is moot.

Guys guys, listen. If we make the startuplag equal or slightly more to the time it would take to wiggle the AD, would not everyone be happy? I mean, yeah, you can AD from tumble, but let's say it has 3-4 extra frames of lag. If you know how to wiggle properly though, you could get past that lag in just 1 or 2 frames and then AD, skipping that lag. With this, players newer to b+ will still AD regularly, and more hardcore players will learn the full mechanic of wiggling and get those 1-2 frames less lag!
:

The only problem I see is that you don't wiggle the same way twice and its depends on the situation so having an exact frame count would be as effective.

 

[leafgreen386]

The Ness thing didn't work...is there a not ridiculous line limit I don't know about?

I think I might've misunderstood what you were asking and so replied somewhat oddly. You have to add those lines to the hitbox code and change the byte count.

 

[trojanpooh]

How do I go about changing the byte count? Also, I am currently using an unmodified Brawl+ 4.0. Sorry if this is layed out for everyone to see somewhere else.

 

[thesage]

What'd you guys do to Ness' bat?

 

[Revven]

What'd you guys do to Ness' bat?

Nothing, the code they're talking about is to make it have the home run bat sound effect.

 

[thesage]

Sorry to bother with semi unrelated question, but can somebody either help me with the values of ness's bat, or set up the code that would keep his bat exactly the same but have the screeching noise? Or is the Ness's bat code on the first page exactly that?

Yea i just got that. Lol.

 

[kismet2]

Were there any codes created for the Japanese version of Brawl?

 

[StarcraftLedZeppelin]

Can some one explain what wiggle is suppose to mean?

 

[GPDP]

Uh, wow, apparently there's an instant transformation code (for Zelda, Samus, etc.) in the WiiRD thread. Should this be implemented in Brawl+ as well?

 

[cAm8ooo]

hmm... must force the game into loading both at the start. I say yes, it would make them even better but it would also make them a little more unique with all the switching that would be goin on.

 

[VietGeek]

hmm... must force the game into loading both at the start. I say yes, it would make them even better but it would also make them a little more unique with all the switching that would be goin on.

Uniqueness over balance is exactly the same mentality Sakurai used when making Brawl. The casual fanbase bawls over clones so he Luigifies every potential clone and shafts game balance due to it.

Whenever you switch you leave yourself open, you are aware of this and do it anyway, in hopes the potential reward > potential risk. I want to turn into Zelda to land an easier kill, but I need to swat the foe away far enough to do this safely. This makes the move situational but possibly beneficial.

I really don't see why we need to buff Sheik by allowing her an "Awesome Recovery" card, or to further buff PT into making it easier for him to bail out in a switch for on-the-fly CPing, especially considering the debate over how his switch system is suppose to be implemented anyway.

Just my .02 USD; currently the characters that the code would affect are not heavily hampered by the way the swap system currently works. Including it may destroy a fragile balance of the swap mechanic. Or it may not. But whatever I guess.

 

[storm92]

Uniqueness over balance is exactly the same mentality Sakurai used when making Brawl. The casual fanbase bawls over clones so he Luigifies every potential clone and shafts game balance due to it.

Whenever you switch you leave yourself open, you are aware of this and do it anyway, in hopes the potential reward > potential risk. I want to turn into Zelda to land an easier kill, but I need to swat the foe away far enough to do this safely. This makes the move situational but possibly beneficial.

I really don't see why we need to buff Sheik by allowing her an "Awesome Recovery" card, or to further buff PT into making it easier for him to bail out in a switch for on-the-fly CPing, especially considering the debate over how his switch system is suppose to be implemented anyway.

Just my .02 USD; currently the characters that the code would affect are not heavily hampered by the way the swap system currently works. Including it may destroy a fragile balance of the swap mechanic. Or it may not. But whatever I guess.

It's not perfectly "instant".
The time is simply cut down.

 

[VietGeek]

It's not perfectly "instant".
The time is simply cut down.

Is it as fast as this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdpmC9cDEB4&feature=channel_page

If it is my points still stand. If it were instant I'd just post "brokenbrokenbroken" and my argument would probably be better than the current one.

I would test it now but this is the time where I catch my z's and possibly live to the next morning. ^_^

 

[cAm8ooo]

Uniqueness over balance is exactly the same mentality Sakurai used when making Brawl. The casual fanbase bawls over clones so he Luigifies every potential clone and shafts game balance due to it.

Whenever you switch you leave yourself open, you are aware of this and do it anyway, in hopes the potential reward > potential risk. I want to turn into Zelda to land an easier kill, but I need to swat the foe away far enough to do this safely. This makes the move situational but possibly beneficial.

I really don't see why we need to buff Sheik by allowing her an "Awesome Recovery" card, or to further buff PT into making it easier for him to bail out in a switch for on-the-fly CPing, especially considering the debate over how his switch system is suppose to be implemented anyway.

Just my .02 USD; currently the characters that the code would affect are not heavily hampered by the way the swap system currently works. Including it may destroy a fragile balance of the swap mechanic. Or it may not. But whatever I guess.

I dont think it would make zelda and sheik too good but i see some of your points. I didnt actually notice that it affected PT and Samus as well. Whether or not this gets implemented it should only affect sheik/zelda. Hmm, im really on the fence for it. If it does get added sheik's F-air buff should be gone.

edit:ewwww. not that fast. I thought it was just a little faster.

 

[Deleted member]

I dont think it would make zelda and sheik too good but i see some of your points. I didnt actually notice that it affected PT and Samus as well. Whether or not this gets implemented it should only affect sheik/zelda. Hmm, im really on the fence for it. If it does get added sheik's F-air buff should be gone.

edit:ewwww. not that fast. I thought it was just a little faster.

Why? Zelda/Sheik have a way easier time changing, since they can switch while in the air and have a small amount of invisibility frames (IIRC). I think this should be implemented and a set amount of lag frames should be added, just to get rid of the variation.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Because PT has 3 people to switch to. Making it even better.

I like your idea tho. Perhaps make it character specific and we can choose how much lag each transformation should have.

 

[Deleted member]

Because PT has 3 people to switch to. Making it even better.

I like your idea tho. Perhaps make it character specific and we can choose how much lag each transformation should have.

The codes above work with the following characters;

Samus / Zero Suit Samus
Wario / Warioman
Zelda / Sheik
Bowser / Giga Bowser

It doesn't work with PT, anyways... Yet.

 

[storm92]

Is it as fast as this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdpmC9cDEB4&feature=channel_page

If it is my points still stand. If it were instant I'd just post "brokenbrokenbroken" and my argument would probably be better than the current one.

I would test it now but this is the time where I catch my z's and possibly live to the next morning. ^_^

You're aware it would be as fast as the first transformation, right?
Not the others.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I haven't been on the thread as of late, so quick question on the Grab Jump Return: does it remove Snake's cypher grab gimp?

 

[ZodiakLucien]

I would just like to say that I gave brawl+ a shot and I really like it. It feels like what brawl should of been. Great work to all of you who are working on this. I am going to hopefully post a good amount on these boards to input feedback.

On the airdodge issue, I liked the idea of adding some start up lag on start up if you are in tumbling state. I would recommend also added a couple more landing lag on the airdodge. If I recall its 2 frames of landing lag which is too tight of a window to punish. I think bumping it to about 5 would make it more reasonably punishable without making it too bad of an option.

 

[kupo15]

Can some one explain what wiggle is suppose to mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03qPbF7_nAM&feature=channel_page

I haven't been on the thread as of late, so quick question on the Grab Jump Return: does it remove Snake's cypher grab gimp?

I don't think you can up b again but you can jump again. Not sure though and I think this only applies to when you are grabbed. Not the cypher

@instant transformations

I say we should use them. Its no broken and I don't see whats wrong with fixing yet another oversight in game development.

 

[cobaltblue]

I dont think it would make zelda and sheik too good but i see some of your points. I didnt actually notice that it affected PT and Samus as well. Whether or not this gets implemented it should only affect sheik/zelda. Hmm, im really on the fence for it. If it does get added sheik's F-air buff should be gone.

edit:ewwww. not that fast. I thought it was just a little faster.

Why only sheik/zelda? Samus as is has a much harder transform to perform and it doesn't even work thanks to the codes. Not to mention it is one way to begin with unlike zelda/sheik.

Btw kupo how about adding in a fix for Samus transformation already to that list of things to be fixed?

 

[Revven]

Btw kupo how about adding in a fix for Samus transformation already to that list of things to be fixed?

Because we don't need to fix it when we're going to switch back to the Independent Pokes and PT being separate again (meaning we won't be using the No Force Switch code).

 

[CountKaiser]

Is there any way a code could be made where ZSS doesn't spawn with her power suit pieces?

 

[CloneHat]

I would just like to say that I gave brawl+ a shot and I really like it. It feels like what brawl should of been. Great work to all of you who are working on this. I am going to hopefully post a good amount on these boards to input feedback.

On the airdodge issue, I liked the idea of adding some start up lag on start up if you are in tumbling state. I would recommend also added a couple more landing lag on the airdodge. If I recall its 2 frames of landing lag which is too tight of a window to punish. I think bumping it to about 5 would make it more reasonably punishable without making it too bad of an option.

I agree. You can basically just AD into the ground and then shield.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Is there any way a code could be made where ZSS doesn't spawn with her power suit pieces?

Although she definitely doesn't need them, some people like them. How about we do something like have each piece disappear on the first hit? I never had a problem with them being there, since it's cool to start rounds with glide tosses and such. The real problem I see is that they control the focus of the match for a good 30 seconds, wherein the game becomes a item throw fest. Make the vanish timer twice as short or something.

As for transforming, is it fair that Samus can trans to ZSS but not the other way around? I'm not saying make a code to go the other way, but reconsider letting Samus transform at all. She's had the option all along and hasn't been broken, so I guess it's fine, but it's food for though.

 

[kupo15]

I had an interesting glitch actually. Last night, Samus could not transform into ZSS. The suit pieces never broke off. It was weird..

 

[shanus]

If you use the no swap codes (like hold L to swap) it breaks it. The indy pokemon code + css works tho I hear

 

[cobaltblue]

I had an interesting glitch actually. Last night, Samus could not transform into ZSS. The suit pieces never broke off. It was weird..

If you are talking about when you do the switch mid match, crouch into position, spin, and then reappear as if you had activated ZSS's smash ball then that has been a glitch for quite awhile (as explained above).

 

[kupo15]

I figured as much

 

[trojanpooh]

Has anyone toyed with the idea of adjusting Corneria to make it bigger like in Melee (or even like in 64)? Would it be a possibility for Brawl+? What about good values to test out? I'm assuming you shouldn't touch the Y size, but I don't even know where to start for the rest.

 

[kupo15]

My set already has a bigger corneria. I think the plussery adopted it as well

 

[shanus]

I dont think we included it yet as we hadn't done boundaries yet. We'll chat on aim later about if its included in what you gave me.