Emperor Time
Smash Lord
^God **** that game is broken....
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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda
- Thread starter kupo15
- Start date
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
some PTs like the idea of the auto-switchout on death. thats why you keep the regular PT so that those people can still use him how they feel he should be used and let the other pokes be their own separate entities without the possibility of switching. if you find yourself on a winning streak with regular PT, though, then definitly having the 'hold r to stay the same' would be useful. but if you're playing as, say, charizard and getting wrecked, but you find ivysaur does the trick then PT should be able to keep ivysaur out with the 'hold r' option but still be able to change pokemon. having the wild pokemon switch is just ridiculous. the player picked to have that pokemon and unlike regular PT they should have to be forced to stay as that one pokemon.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
You can't offer the ability to not switch to the PT and then not offer the ability to switch to the pokemon. It defeats the whole purpose of separating them. I would be fine if PT had the ability to not switch by holding shield while the "independent" pokemon were given the ability to switch if they held shield, since then whichever playstyle suits you better is what you would use. Also, I believe that no pokemon (independent or trainer) should have stamina. It's a really stupid mechanic that doesn't "balance" anything. It just punishes you for... being alive.
Pretty much this.
Though I would wonder, would a "Hold Z to skip a Pokemon on Death" (Like allowing Squirtle to switch to Charizard on death, or Ivy switching to Squirtle on death, ect) be possible with normal swap on death otherwise? It may help PT take advantage of a situation better, though it may not be necessary.
Of course, Stamina should still stay out of PTs Pokemon. Forcing a timer on them is just unfair imo.
cman
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 17, 2008
- Messages
- 593
Are you considering putting the stamina thing back in? And as for desires, I thought that the pt/wild pokemon was the best compromise. People could play them as individual characters, or they could choose to have access to all three pokemon.
Edit- The press z to skip pokemon thing is a fantastic idea as well.
trojanpooh
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2007
- Messages
- 1,183
Would there be a way to change Pokemon while in the death platform thingy? As it is right now, you need to be 100% positive that you will die to switch Pokemon.
If thats not possible, being able to switch immediately after coming off and keeping invincibility frames upon the switch would be the next best thing.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
i think the stamina on the regular trainer is fine, but it definitely needs to be slowed down/increased so that they last longer before needing to switch. i think 4 minutes (twice the brawl stamina) as a starting point would be good for PTs pokes and leave the entire stamina aspect out of the wild pokes like it was/is.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
I don't get why you would want to keep stamina. The character isn't broken. Stamina isn't needed to balance PT. It was just a stupid mechanic sakruai implemented so you had to play as all of the pokemon, even if you were doing well with one and living for a long time. Stamina doesn't punish poor play. It punishes you for existing.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
yeah, i guess your right. i think i was just trying to create a greater difference between regular PT and the wild pokemon. there really is no need for it. sorry for bringing it up.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^Well, let it be pointless lol. I see no reason to force them to be different (you are playing the same characters afterall), especially with a system as anti-competitive as "stamina." That's basically punishing you for doing too well (zomg you managed to live? You MUST BE PUNISHED!)
Imo, PT and Wild Poke should seriously go back in. The issue is with PT, not with the wild poke. Holding R/L/Z when you die as PT to swap would be good, but the wild pokes need to come back in.
The thing I have there is, if you make switching optional with PT, there's effectively no reason to have wild pokemon. We should either combine them all into PT, and make autoswap controllable, or make PT and wild pokemon, but PT keeps autoswap.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
i'm for PT autoswaping and wild pokes not having a down b.
Having a down B that actually does something and thus being able to access multiple Pokemon is an advantage that PT has over wild pokemon. If we make it so that PT encompasses all the reasons for playing WPs (by not having to switch, and being able to stay the same pokemon the whole match), there's no reason to have them. But if we keep PT autoswap, that's an advantage the WPs have over PT, making them feasible again.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
exactly. thats what it was in the last version of B+ and the way it needs to be (though i like the idea of holding z to skip a poke in the switch phase).
Exactly.
Plus the idea is kinda cool. PT has his three pokemon or you can choose to be a wild pokemon. Just another one of those cool little things
edit: lol at our first words there popo
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
My only problem is, why does the PKMN Trainer deserve the ability to play as 3 separate but good characters. Forcing the PMKN Trainer to switch on death make sense to the PKMN style and prevents him from using 3 very solid characters. Basically you chose PKMN Trainer for the diversity but sacrifice the ability to play as just one pokemon. I don't know, friend just showed up so I'm out. hopefully that made sense.
Look I may be stupid and I know I am going completely against what I said before.
in VB Links d-tilt was stupid. the hitbox was near his *** and it was impossible to time to hit with just the tip of the sword.
However, with no ASL I feel it is a little to abusable now.
When I proposed to add this there were 2 things I had in mind.
1. Improving Links onstage setup game.
2. Improve near edge gimp game.
1. The addition was wonderful for this reason. The move set up people perfectly with just the right amount of KB. and led into combos. It was truely amazing.
2. When I thought to add this I thought it wouldn't be so bad. It wasn't really that abusable on Ike. But I was wrong. For Link it is. "Well it isn't if you time your recovery" but Its faster than Ikes and can some characters at extremly low %'s. And Link could even combo into it sometimes. In that sense it might be a little too good.
I never thought I'd ask to nerf Link but I think this move needs reconsideration. I wish I could find some happy medium between what it was in VB and B+. I mean in VB the ****ing spike box was his butt or the frame perfect tip of sword. I guess what I would suggest is decrease the base KB by a lot and increase growth by a little so it isn't abusable at low% or just take it out all together and do something else like fix one of his throws.
SO yea.....what do you guys think. Tell me honestly.
in VB Links d-tilt was stupid. the hitbox was near his *** and it was impossible to time to hit with just the tip of the sword.
However, with no ASL I feel it is a little to abusable now.
When I proposed to add this there were 2 things I had in mind.
1. Improving Links onstage setup game.
2. Improve near edge gimp game.
1. The addition was wonderful for this reason. The move set up people perfectly with just the right amount of KB. and led into combos. It was truely amazing.
2. When I thought to add this I thought it wouldn't be so bad. It wasn't really that abusable on Ike. But I was wrong. For Link it is. "Well it isn't if you time your recovery" but Its faster than Ikes and can some characters at extremly low %'s. And Link could even combo into it sometimes. In that sense it might be a little too good.
I never thought I'd ask to nerf Link but I think this move needs reconsideration. I wish I could find some happy medium between what it was in VB and B+. I mean in VB the ****ing spike box was his butt or the frame perfect tip of sword. I guess what I would suggest is decrease the base KB by a lot and increase growth by a little so it isn't abusable at low% or just take it out all together and do something else like fix one of his throws.
SO yea.....what do you guys think. Tell me honestly.
WeirdoZ Inc.
Smash Apprentice
How 'bout just adding the ability to swap backward on both down-b and on KO by holding shield or something?
Nah. Link doesnt need the dtilt to be touched, considering he still gets gimped easy as all hell, can't really combo, and its not as abusable as you think it is.
The only reason why it works as well as it does because of the lack of inviciframes on the ledge, but with lagless edges, you shouldnt even be on the ledge that long to be it with it because inviciframes still exist.
If anything, it should only be slowed down a bit.
Thing is if you slow it down you take away its awesomeness as an onstage setup. BUT it might make it more fair if it was slowed by 1.1-1.05X overall/certain frames or something
I think it would bring back some depth to Link honestly. Make him zair edge-guard more and ****.
I think it would bring back some depth to Link honestly. Make him zair edge-guard more and ****.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
I think its fine, as a situation where your opponent messes up their recovery doesn't happen often. Its a good punishment, considering a lot of his edgeguarding strategies aren't that great. Or at least not as good as other chars.
I mean right now I can combo into it and 0-death.
D-throw>turnaround d-tilt at edge is a killer. (0%)
bair>craq walk>d-tilt (started combo at 30%)
zair>zair>d-tilt ( 0%)
Boomerang>d-tilt (0%)
jab cancel>d-tilt (0%)
All combo's I've pulled off. All situational but possible.
I just think its a little abusable and takes away some depth. I'd rather see it slowed down a tad (1.1 or 1.05 certain frames/overall) to make it not as abusable maybe fix a throw instead when we get the code or something.
Well I just thought I'd share my opinion on the matter.
D-throw>turnaround d-tilt at edge is a killer. (0%)
bair>craq walk>d-tilt (started combo at 30%)
zair>zair>d-tilt ( 0%)
Boomerang>d-tilt (0%)
jab cancel>d-tilt (0%)
All combo's I've pulled off. All situational but possible.
I just think its a little abusable and takes away some depth. I'd rather see it slowed down a tad (1.1 or 1.05 certain frames/overall) to make it not as abusable maybe fix a throw instead when we get the code or something.
Well I just thought I'd share my opinion on the matter.
^^ (Blank Mauser) This and no one should be on the edge long enough to even get hit with that. If you know a character has a dtilt spike, you realize that staying on the ledge for more than 1 second will cause you to get spiked.
It's common sense.
EDIT: FFFFFF. **** YOU SWORDPLAY. NINJA-ING ME. **** MAN.
EDIT: Lol 0-death? on who? CPUs?
If you have pulled it off on humans, is it offline? Cuz Wifi + DI = looooool
It's common sense.
EDIT: FFFFFF. **** YOU SWORDPLAY. NINJA-ING ME. **** MAN.
EDIT: Lol 0-death? on who? CPUs?
If you have pulled it off on humans, is it offline? Cuz Wifi + DI = looooool
5ive
Smash Champion
Exactly. In beta 4.0, we used the Wild Pokemon code where you couldn't switch them out. We need to bring it back D_D
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
To that I say...YOU MUST RECOVER!!
As cliche as that sounds....meteor canceling solves this problem easily.
Thos combos are fine. After all, a lot of them depend on the opponent DIing badly or not reacting quickly (d-throw to d-tilt doesn't kill if they don't DI the throw off the stage, jabcancel->d-tilt is not a combo, boomerang->d-tilt doesn't work if they DI away, ect.)
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Well maybe we could consider altering it's growth, but either way I don't think it's as bad you say. Then again I face a lot of people who play characters that are tough to gimp. **** you Sonic.
Just saying. Both neko and I think it should be at 95% speed to make it less abusable.
Edit: the KB for onstage is really good. I'd rather just see it slowed to 95%. I mean comon I'm 4 stocking my friends snake and my friend is better than me at this game......
Edit2: it may not be as bad as I say. That is why I'm asking all of you for your opinion. I was talking about it in the IRC today and we were split half and half on the issue.
Edit: the KB for onstage is really good. I'd rather just see it slowed to 95%. I mean comon I'm 4 stocking my friends snake and my friend is better than me at this game......
Edit2: it may not be as bad as I say. That is why I'm asking all of you for your opinion. I was talking about it in the IRC today and we were split half and half on the issue.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Basically what I'm getting from your posts is... don't play near the ledge against link. I don't really see it as a problem if a character can kill you if you screw up by the ledge. That's why the ledge is a risky place to be to begin with.
We'll I thought I would just bring up my opinion as the person who first suggested we add the buff. We can always leave it for now and discuss it again pending tourney results. Lets go back to the former discussion.
I kind of agree. Either play 1 or be forced to play all 3. Having the ability to play all 3 and choose which one to play without being forced just gives PKT nearly un-couterpickable.
I kind of agree. Either play 1 or be forced to play all 3. Having the ability to play all 3 and choose which one to play without being forced just gives PKT nearly un-couterpickable.
The zair>zair>dtilt only happened once and it can be prevented if you opponent knows its possible. My opponent was just caught offgaurd. We tested it later and found out its not a "true combo"
and dthrow>dtilt only works if you are perfectly positioned. It can really be avoided....
As I said before those combo's are extremely situational.
I want to put this discussion off until I see tourney results. If Link is average of the pack then we don't even need to have this discussion. ESPECIALLY once we get ledge teching in the game.
Leaf told me it wasn't in yet on the IRC and I was surprised. Once its in I'm sure this won't be as broken as I thought it might be.
Just wait for tourney results.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
If it helps, I hear Forte beasted a tourney with Link.
Most people who know about the Dtilt probably won't DI near the ledge, so I think its still fine mostly. Once people know to watch out for it I can't imagine it'd be easy to land.
I thought the idea was that Pokemon Trainer may have a slight advantage because he doesn't have to use Down-B to switch. If this is true, I'm fine with wild pokemon.
Most people who know about the Dtilt probably won't DI near the ledge, so I think its still fine mostly. Once people know to watch out for it I can't imagine it'd be easy to land.
I thought the idea was that Pokemon Trainer may have a slight advantage because he doesn't have to use Down-B to switch. If this is true, I'm fine with wild pokemon.
kupo15
Smash Hero
If I remember correctly, they made it a spike meaning no meteor canceling
Revven
FrankerZ
I don't think this is necessary tbh.
Guys, we really need to stop talking about "BUFF X MOVE FOR THIS CHAR FOR X REASON" because if the char is already deemed good or fairs well in most matches, they don't need any buffs or ANYMORE buffs until tourney results prove otherwise or something.
Posts like the one above cause topics like "Power Creep" to be made and **** when really, we aren't going to be buffing every single character for x reason because more than half the cast got buffed from the gameplay mechanics. I already gave some good examples of these chars. Characters will only be buffed if they are still lacking in many areas and the gameplay changes cannot allow them to excel as well as they should (i.e Bowser, Link, Ivysaur for example).