COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[trojanpooh]

But that's just not true. Sheik is still as great as ever. Her tether makes it cake to try edgehog w/o any risk, her needles and vanish are both solid moves, and she has lots of combo potential.

 

[leafgreen386]

Also, since I take it coders have already said it's impossible to trick the Wii into loading both Sheik and Zelda, could they give the transformation enough invincibility frames on ending to either spot dodge or put up a shield safely (9 frames?), but not abuse it?

Edit: I would support something like this for PT as well.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Sheik has to transform, or that she should have to transform, or that anyone should have to transform, I'm just saying it's an option you can't ignore. In addition I fully believe she is capable enough as a killer even without transforming.

Good to see you read my whole post! Because I obviously never said that I thought giving her a 90% kill move would be OP!

And no, she is not "capable enough as a killer" as she is. Currently, none of her moves bar a sweetspotted usmash kill at below 130%, if that. She relies almost entirely on gimping for kills at any decent percents. As I stated before, I really think that the most a character should have to wait for until they have a reliable kill option available to them should be 120%. This requires a considerable amount of damage building as it stands, and you can't combo for your damage when you reach those higher percents, which greatly extends your opponent's lifespan, even though the actual percent difference is only 15-20%. The base standard a move should kill at should be 120%, and moves that kill below that are simply better kill moves. Not saying all kill moves need to kill at early as 120%, but that every character should have at least one reliable kill move that kills that early. If they have four other moves that all kill at 130%-140% then those don't need to be buffed as long as they have that singular move that kills by 120%.

And before people start saying that sheik has the sweetspot usmash which kills much earlier than that... that's not a reliable kill move. The ftilt -> usmash combo is subject to DI, and she doesn't have any other good ways to lead into it. Trust me, if she did, she would never have been labeled as being "hard to kill with."

You aren't forced to switch, you're just forced to work harder if you don't. How is this a problem? And since when does middle tier = garbage? Maybe I'm just biased because the characters I do main are low and actually require high skill and some luck to overcome the opponent, but I just don't see why every character must have a dail a combo to ko move.

Because without switching, you're effectively playing a slightly better than mid-tier character. Yes, I said mid-tier. Sheik is not that good on her own. Yes, she can rack up damage quickly at the early percents, and yes she can gimp, but that's it. She has no reliable kill moves until absurd percents, which allows her opponent to easily catch up on all that damage she just dealt and then some. Characters that can both combo and kill will have the advantage against her, especially if their recovery doesn't suck. Now, you're talking about removing part of what made her damage-racking so great without giving her any compensation? Not a good idea. Her kill moves don't need a large boost, just a small nudge, but it would make her a much more solid character.

And then switching presents its own set of problems. In order to safely switch, you'll probably need to hit the opponent off the stage. If you switch now, you lose your chance to edgeguard and have to work to get them off the stage or otherwise into a killing move all over again. Had you just been able to kill at decent percents to begin with, you hitting your opponent offstage could actually be followed up and kill them. Switching is not as simple as people make it out to be, and it carries quite a bit of risk with it. In vb, it was reasonable to switch basically whenever you wanted, since you would suffer at most one hit for it for punishment - a light penalty for gaining a moveset full of fresh kill moves. In brawl+, if you get hit while switching, you're probably going to suffer a combo that could even result in death. It isn't fair to force a character to go through this kind of trouble.

Now... how does mid-tier = garbage? Simple. Because it does. Look at either melee or brawl and tell me if you actually see middle tiers winning tournaments or even consistently placing well. The tourney placings are taken by top tiers and a few high tiers. These high tiers are viable. The mid-tiers? Not so much. When we can consider every character to be at least "high tier" material is when we've achieved balance by viability, and I think this is what we should be aiming for.

But that's just not true. Sheik is still as great as ever. Her tether makes it cake to try edgehog w/o any risk, her needles and vanish are both solid moves, and she has lots of combo potential.

Did you seriously just call needles and vanish "solid moves?" Needles are not that good of a projectile. They'll net you some free damage each stock, but they don't help you lead into combos like they did in melee and they don't gimp anymore, either. If you needled a recovering fox, he fell a short distance before getting out of stun. In brawl+, hitting a recovering character with a needle (or even multiple needles) is counterproductive, since it just lets them use upB again. Her vanish is not a very good move, either. It's not like she can combo into it or anything (and trying to just randomly hit someone with it on stage is stupid, due to its tremendous startup and large ending lag), and although it does have some edgeguarding applications, they're limited.

 

[Shell]

Almas, so loading both of them isn't an option, but how hard to you think it'd be to tack a few invincibility frames onto the end of the transformation? Not enough that it can be used infinitely to stall, but just enough to side step / shield.

 

[Lawlb0t]

Low/Bottom exist for a reason -.-

 

[Almas]

I think it's certainly possible, SHeLL, although I'm not sure how to go about it at the moment. It may also be possible to speed up the latter half of the animation as to utterly remove end lag. You'd still be slightly disadvantaged for transforming but not hideously so.

 

[OK'Ssuka?]

Low/Bottom exist for a reason -.-

Guilty Gear XX Accent Core says hi...just saying.

 

[Shell]

Almas -- that sounds like a good start.

And I'd like to hear what Nakamaru / Cape think about Sheik right now, as Nakamaru's got a really nice Sheik and Cape gets to / has to play against it.

 

[PanzerOceania]

I'm less concerned about Sheik, as she is very playable, I do see the point about being able to play Shiek and not missing out without using Zelda at times, but it isn't important to me.

I think Link really could use an overhaul though, people are quick to retool bowser or Falcon because they are popular but God forbid fixing link.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Also I forget who but I think someone actually made a case for how shiek is garbage without her broken tilt now. Those types of arguments should be the reasons why characters get buffs, not for the mythical everyone's a winner tier.

Bingo!! We have a winner.

So...apparently Sheik is bad without that f-tilt right? Well then...we can buff her because she's bad.

I after reading some more posts about the effects of Sheik's f-tilt getting nerfed, I now fully support buffing her fair as compensation to make her...not garbage.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Guilty Gear XX Accent Core says hi...just saying.

They still had a low/bottom tier. Those were the characters that had a lot of bad matchups. There was just nothing unwinnable (though Eddie and Testament will give some characters a lot of trouble.) There will always be characters who have more bad matchups than everyone else, thus there will always be a bottom tier. The only thing that matters is the severity and number of bad matchups. If they've got a couple hard counters, learn a secondary. If they've got a bunch of bad matchups, tough it out (or learn a secondary). If they've got a lot of hard counters...then they probably need buffing.

That is all that I'm aiming for. That, is why I said that we should only buff bad characters. Now...I just have to iron out my definition of "bad," since the term "unviable" seems (which is my definition of bad)...is just as arbitrary.

 

[kupo15]

Brawl+ camera BETA 1

A little jerky but I am waiting for the zoom speed value because it zooms out too fast and in too slow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrMCA3w8UdI

 

[OK'Ssuka?]

Correction/Explanation

True. I just wanted to point out that one of the aims of the project is to have a compressed Tier List, one where even with a Brawl+ "Low/Bottom Tier", one could still have some decent chance of winning or holding their ground against those higher up in the tier list. Granted it won't be easy, but at least the characters could, hopefully, be tournament viable.

I guess I should have been more clear on what I was trying to say...heh...thanks for the correction/explanation.

 

[cobaltblue]

Jeues tap dancing christ again you read my mind Dark Sonic.

@Leaf

You persented a soild case on why shiek is apparently suck now without her tilt so I'll back off on that front as I can admit I have no deep profound knowledge on the character. A good argument instead of "lol hey guy lez use these codz cause we can" is all I wanted.

But I still contend making every char in the special tier is a dream and can not be done with the tools we have or in a reasonable timely matter unless you decide to clone everyone and make sure they have the proper amount of ko/combo/gimp/etc moves. The math is just not there to ensure everyone is a unique winner if they just try hard and pray to the smash god (which I guess is the coders in this case). A much more realistic aim is to ensure every character can put up a fight (unless its their CP ala marth vs. sonic) or win against a good majority of the cast. Reading your posts over and over it seems our ideas are similar but slightly different due to semetics.

 

[Shadic]

I know you guys all hate uniqueness for uniqueness sake at this point, but not all gimmicks are bad or at the very least unbearable. Just look at peach and GAW's random b moves.

There was a serious discussion about changing those moves earlier. I ranted otherwise, but I'm not a big name. I think people just got bored of the idea, or something. But I'm glad. The move works, we need to leave them alone.

 

[Magus420]

I was thinking the same thing about the end of the transform to make it more useful. If you speed up the end of it enough I imagine there wouldn't be enough time to react to when the load will finish (it varies) to be able to punish the end of the transform effectively. It's already something in the area of 25-30 frames between their icon disappearing/switching and the end of the transform, so doubling the speed at the end should accomplish this.

 

[The Night Cat]

I know Falcon has been buffed alot; but I was wondering with moves like the gentleman, where you are often punished even if you connect, are going to be fixed with a little more base knockback? Also, his D-air has to be aimed really carefully with the hitboxes and their hurt boxes lining up just to get a downwards angle, before they even DI. I was wondering if we could get that changed to just launch angle 270, no need really for meteor or true spike (36X)'s.

 

[kupo15]

I think that multi hit jabs in general should have more kb. They act like combos when they should be gtfo moves.

 

[Swordplay]

I think in the short term we should justworry about buffing low and bottom tiers. to "mid and high" status. and nerfing "top" characters.

In the long term though, we can take a look at "mid" characters once we have near unlimited space and make them "high" caliber. But this should come later in the project once we have all our codes in place. We still have a lot to decide and find

 

[CountKaiser]

I think this should be revisited.

Why does Falcon have 40% ALR?

He certainly doesn't need it, and can do just fine without it.

 

[storm92]

I think this should be revisited.

Why does Falcon have 40% ALR?

He certainly doesn't need it, and can do just fine without it.

To ease with approaches, because air approaches are about all he has, and as he is an entirely offensive character, he needs to approach.

 

[The Cape]

Your mean btw. I've seen what you do to your friends in your vids. ****ed up

You should see what I do to the people I dont like.

 

[Shell]

To ease with approaches, because air approaches are about all he has, and as he is an entirely offensive character, he needs to approach.

Storm: What ground approach does Ganon have that Falcon doesn't that makes this not also completely true about Ganon?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I think this should be revisited.

Why does Falcon have 40% ALR?

He certainly doesn't need it, and can do just fine without it.

people are more familiar with him, so it's easier to fine tune him.

 

[shanus]

Storm: What ground approach does Ganon have that Falcon doesn't that makes this not also completely true about Ganon?

One has more priority than the other though.

 

[Shell]

Priority only goes so far when Dash attack / choke / DC jab are so easy to see coming and completely avoid.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^I think he meant aerial priority. Not to mention that Ganon's aerials in general have more shieldstun and hitstun than Falcon's (even when you consider that Ganon has more lag, I still think the difference in shieldstun could be significant).

Wasn't Falcon bad at some point, like after we "lowered" hitstun (I.E. we used a lower value and that got people to try escaping more often, proving that Falcon's combos just didn't work)?

 

[Shell]

I think that in a real match Ganon's arial approaches are not even comparable to the speed and effectiveness of Falcon's approaches.

The thing about depending on hitting someone's shield is that most of his arials have fairly wonky hitboxes that don't hit a surprising amount of grounded targets.

I won't push this too hard, but I don't think it's as equal as you guys are suggesting.

 

[goodoldganon]

Oh it's not, but whatever. Ganon seems ok to me. Faster rolls to get space would be nice, but it's not needed.

 

[Alopex]

Found two bugs with the Frame Mod code. Already PM'd spunit about it.

Here:

The first one only affects disjointed hitboxes and, in fact, what happens is that some of them actually get removed when you speed up the frames enough.
The most obvious ones are is Ike's Dtilt and Dedede's Jab. I sped them up by 1.33x and 1.7x respectively, and the attacks were just swishing by the opponents as if they were intangible. It's pretty bizarre.

The second bug seems to be unique to Diddy's UpB. In vBrawl, when Diddy is charging his UpB in the air, he'll still be falling down. But if you speed up the Charge action ID of his UpB, then he'll actually rise as he's charging, before the UpB is even released. It's very lulz to see happen.

So that's what I've come across so far. In both cases I only attempted to speed up the frames, so I don't know if the bugs also occur if you slow them down. I'll check it out later.

 

[Swordplay]

On chat. SP is the real Swordplay

LOLZ Toon Link Clones


What happened tonight on chat was really gay. You guys have lost my complete respect.

 

[Rikana]

Edit: Nevermind.

 

[Swordplay]

Anything I said on this night in chat I probably really didn't mean in.

Forgive me but I was provoked and pissed and somethings that I should not have said slipped out.

If you quote me I cannot be held accountable.

Furthermore, I have nearly no sense of humor and am very gullible, If your going to fool around with me like that I hope you'll make it more clear. I'm a very serious person and do not take these things lightly.

One last note: I'm all book smart and nearly no street smarts so sometimes I come on these forums and especially chat rooms have have the unique ability to make a complete idiot out of myself.

It is for these reasons that I cannot be accountable for anything I say.

Hopefully this never happens again.

Especially left for jiang

 

[SketchHurricane]

So what exactly do the Reverse Knee, Ness' Bat, and Rest Values codes do?

 

[Greenpoe]

Good to see you read my whole post! Because I obviously never said that I thought giving her a 90% kill move would be OP!

And no, she is not "capable enough as a killer" as she is. Currently, none of her moves bar a sweetspotted usmash kill at below 130%, if that. She relies almost entirely on gimping for kills at any decent percents. As I stated before, I really think that the most a character should have to wait for until they have a reliable kill option available to them should be 120%. This requires a considerable amount of damage building as it stands, and you can't combo for your damage when you reach those higher percents, which greatly extends your opponent's lifespan, even though the actual percent difference is only 15-20%. The base standard a move should kill at should be 120%, and moves that kill below that are simply better kill moves. Not saying all kill moves need to kill at early as 120%, but that every character should have at least one reliable kill move that kills that early. If they have four other moves that all kill at 130%-140% then those don't need to be buffed as long as they have that singular move that kills by 120%.

And before people start saying that sheik has the sweetspot usmash which kills much earlier than that... that's not a reliable kill move. The ftilt -> usmash combo is subject to DI, and she doesn't have any other good ways to lead into it. Trust me, if she did, she would never have been labeled as being "hard to kill with."


Because without switching, you're effectively playing a slightly better than mid-tier character. Yes, I said mid-tier. Sheik is not that good on her own. Yes, she can rack up damage quickly at the early percents, and yes she can gimp, but that's it. She has no reliable kill moves until absurd percents, which allows her opponent to easily catch up on all that damage she just dealt and then some. Characters that can both combo and kill will have the advantage against her, especially if their recovery doesn't suck. Now, you're talking about removing part of what made her damage-racking so great without giving her any compensation? Not a good idea. Her kill moves don't need a large boost, just a small nudge, but it would make her a much more solid character.

And then switching presents its own set of problems. In order to safely switch, you'll probably need to hit the opponent off the stage. If you switch now, you lose your chance to edgeguard and have to work to get them off the stage or otherwise into a killing move all over again. Had you just been able to kill at decent percents to begin with, you hitting your opponent offstage could actually be followed up and kill them. Switching is not as simple as people make it out to be, and it carries quite a bit of risk with it. In vb, it was reasonable to switch basically whenever you wanted, since you would suffer at most one hit for it for punishment - a light penalty for gaining a moveset full of fresh kill moves. In brawl+, if you get hit while switching, you're probably going to suffer a combo that could even result in death. It isn't fair to force a character to go through this kind of trouble.

Now... how does mid-tier = garbage? Simple. Because it does. Look at either melee or brawl and tell me if you actually see middle tiers winning tournaments or even consistently placing well. The tourney placings are taken by top tiers and a few high tiers. These high tiers are viable. The mid-tiers? Not so much. When we can consider every character to be at least "high tier" material is when we've achieved balance by viability, and I think this is what we should be aiming for.


Did you seriously just call needles and vanish "solid moves?" Needles are not that good of a projectile. They'll net you some free damage each stock, but they don't help you lead into combos like they did in melee and they don't gimp anymore, either. If you needled a recovering fox, he fell a short distance before getting out of stun. In brawl+, hitting a recovering character with a needle (or even multiple needles) is counterproductive, since it just lets them use upB again. Her vanish is not a very good move, either. It's not like she can combo into it or anything (and trying to just randomly hit someone with it on stage is stupid, due to its tremendous startup and large ending lag), and although it does have some edgeguarding applications, they're limited.

Exactly. Debating if Sheik should have a fair buff is like a debate from the MK-ban-vs.-no-ban days, where people for the ban hugely exaggerated how good MK is, where now people exaggerate how good Sheik is. But let's look at some of Sheik's specific matchups, assuming the f-tilt is fixed:

Sheik vs. Lucario- The problem is immediately clear: Sheik can't kill 'til 150%, Lucario is heavy, floaty, and has a good recovery (relatively), and he gets stronger with damage...so, is he easily edgegaurded? Nope! What if they're on FD or Yoshi's Island? Lucario's recovery becomes EVEN BETTER with the wall-cling. I sometimes play as Lucario, and in Brawl+, at 150%, it's relatively easy to bring your opponent to KO percents if you can survive. So, Lucario has a huge advantage. Why? Sheik can't kill until very high %'s.

How about ROB? He has a fantastic recovery, he's heavy, more aerial priority, and powerful. Hmm...sounds like Sheik is the only one getting gimped here. This one is no good either.

Sheik vs. MK? Oooh, he has gliding, absurd priority, and speed. Sheik's best asset is speed, but she's clearly outclassed in all her aspects.

Granted, Sheik's lack of KO power isn't an issue in every matchup, but she has no reliable KO moves. Giving her fair a good amount of knockback would fix her so that she could KO onstage when a mid-weight character is at about 120%, which is fair, since many KO earlier than that. Remember that Sheik was designed for vBrawl, where people generally die later, but now that you get KO'd at Melee percents, she needs some compensation.

 

[Dan_X]

Exactly. Debating if Sheik should have a fair buff is like a debate from the MK-ban-vs.-no-ban days, where people for the ban hugely exaggerated how good MK is, where now people exaggerate how good Sheik is. But let's look at some of Sheik's specific matchups, assuming the f-tilt is fixed:

Sheik vs. Lucario- The problem is immediately clear: Sheik can't kill 'til 150%, Lucario is heavy, floaty, and has a good recovery (relatively), and he gets stronger with damage...so, is he easily edgegaurded? Nope! What if they're on FD or Yoshi's Island? Lucario's recovery becomes EVEN BETTER with the wall-cling. I sometimes play as Lucario, and in Brawl+, at 150%, it's relatively easy to bring your opponent to KO percents if you can survive. So, Lucario has a huge advantage. Why? Sheik can't kill until very high %'s.

How about ROB? He has a fantastic recovery, he's heavy, more aerial priority, and powerful. Hmm...sounds like Sheik is the only one getting gimped here. This one is no good either.

Sheik vs. MK? Oooh, he has gliding, absurd priority, and speed. Sheik's best asset is speed, but she's clearly outclassed in all her aspects.

Granted, Sheik's lack of KO power isn't an issue in every matchup, but she has no reliable KO moves. Giving her fair a good amount of knockback would fix her so that she could KO onstage when a mid-weight character is at about 120%, which is fair, since many KO earlier than that. Remember that Sheik was designed for vBrawl, where people generally die later, but now that you get KO'd at Melee percents, she needs some compensation.

Well put. I agree.

Oh and Leaf, you mention that you can't combo into vanish--- I do. I can't by any stretch admit that it's a reliable killing move, as it's hard to land. The enemy could very well DI away from it, but I've cobmoed into it many times, I love when I land that thing! However, I'm a bit rusty with said tactics as I've been playing Falco, Fox, and Falcon a ton more lately--- especially Falco-- which tends to be my primary main.

Even still, a base knockback increase to Sheiks Uair/nair or an increased kb for her Fair would be fine. I'd much rather have her Fair buffed, as to me a certain aspect of Shiek was stripped from her in Brawl... I loved her aerial game in Melee, they way she fought. I liked comboing into the Fair and actually having it be affective. It should kill at %s that make sense. I'd say within the rang of 110-120% would be nice.

Basically, Fair is Shiek's signature move--- or was in Melee. Now it's garbage. I'd love for it to be good again.

 

[Eldiran]

So! ...which of the values on the first line is the byte count?

Hitbox Property Mod Data [Phantom Wings, spunit262]
065A9800 00000014
GGHHIIJJ KKLLLMMM
NNOOPPQQ RRRR0000
SSSSSSSS 00000000

So what exactly do the Reverse Knee, Ness' Bat, and Rest Values codes do?

I am also curious about this.

 

[cobaltblue]

Exactly. Debating if Sheik should have a fair buff is like a debate from the MK-ban-vs.-no-ban days, where people for the ban hugely exaggerated how good MK is, where now people exaggerate how good Sheik is. But let's look at some of Sheik's specific matchups, assuming the f-tilt is fixed:

Sheik vs. Lucario- The problem is immediately clear: Sheik can't kill 'til 150%, Lucario is heavy, floaty, and has a good recovery (relatively), and he gets stronger with damage...so, is he easily edgegaurded? Nope! What if they're on FD or Yoshi's Island? Lucario's recovery becomes EVEN BETTER with the wall-cling. I sometimes play as Lucario, and in Brawl+, at 150%, it's relatively easy to bring your opponent to KO percents if you can survive. So, Lucario has a huge advantage. Why? Sheik can't kill until very high %'s.

How about ROB? He has a fantastic recovery, he's heavy, more aerial priority, and powerful. Hmm...sounds like Sheik is the only one getting gimped here. This one is no good either.

Sheik vs. MK? Oooh, he has gliding, absurd priority, and speed. Sheik's best asset is speed, but she's clearly outclassed in all her aspects.

Granted, Sheik's lack of KO power isn't an issue in every matchup, but she has no reliable KO moves. Giving her fair a good amount of knockback would fix her so that she could KO onstage when a mid-weight character is at about 120%, which is fair, since many KO earlier than that. Remember that Sheik was designed for vBrawl, where people generally die later, but now that you get KO'd at Melee percents, she needs some compensation.

Not a shot a t Sheik but a general question, so are we going to start ensuring that every character now has some move that lets them be able KO at around 120%? I ask this because I'd like to know what is considered a rediculous long time to KO someone.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i'd like to avoid making shiek's fair too strong just for the plain fact that we aren't supposed to be making melee 2.0

 

[Dan_X]

Not a shot a t Sheik but a general question, so are we going to start ensuring that every character now has some move that lets them be able KO at around 120%? I ask this because I'd like to know what is considered a rediculous long time to KO someone.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that we're going to do our best to ensure that each character has relative KOability-- that each character has the potential to be top tier... Realistically though, this is impossible. You can't have perfect balance when you have differences. No matter how much we change each character, they'll eventually fall into some sort of order, some form of tiers. It's just inherent to any fighting game, no matter how hard we try to balance things. However, it's not a bad idea to lessen the gap between tiers as best we can.

EDIT:

i'd like to avoid making shiek's fair too strong just for the plain fact that we aren't supposed to be making melee 2.0

I see your point but at the same time.. haven't we done enough of restoring old things to already be accused of making a "Melee 2.0?" The fact that Falcon plays as he did in Melee, by and large, is Melee 2.0ish as it is, yet that's not a problem. I really don't see what the problem is with buffing her Fair a bit.

 

[cobaltblue]

Yes, I'm pretty sure that we're going to do our best to ensure that each character has relative KOability-- that each character has the potential to be top tier... Realistically though, this is impossible. You can't have perfect balance when you have differences. No matter how much we change each character, they'll eventually fall into some sort of order, some form of tiers. It's just inherent to any fighting game, no matter how hard we try to balance things. However, it's not a bad idea to lessen the gap between tiers as best we can.

Alright, that makes sense.