COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Dark Sonic]

Blank and I have argued countlessly over that. Sonic is just fine. Blank's complaints are mostly about Sonic not getting through defenses, which I attribute to him just being too predictable.

Sonic does have some bad matchups (particularly against those who have low lag, disjointed ground moves), but nothing too bad.

 

[shanus]

That's what should be done with Sheik. Besides, she deserves a buff because of the f-tilt nerf.

Sheik will be losing one of her major pillars in her style, which is the f-tilt follow-ups. Sheik players generally do a few f-tilts, then move onto other things, like a u-smash, which is why she seems at a high-tier level because of her f-tilt. Now, when you nerf it via extra knockback, she loses options, like another f-tilt, d-smash, u-smash, f-smash, etc. Thus, she is losingmuch of ability. What makes Sheik good? Is her...b-throw? Nope! Is it her d-tilt? Not really. Sheik's best ground-option is f-tilt. Why? If it lands, it leads into a very nice combo. Now, how about that nerf? If f-tilt lands, combos could be escaped via DI, aerials, or whatever. So, she loses a significant cut of what makes her good, now what could make up for that? Fair buff!

Greenpoe, when we saw base knockback increase, we aren't talking about a big change. I'm thinking as minimal as possible here, like maybe 5% or something. To the point where you can still maybe hit with ftilt 2-3 times before going into something else. Its to remove the fact that you can hit ftilt 20 times right now and the other player can't do anything about it. I think you think we are changing it a lot more than we are.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, looking at the character ranking thread, he certainly isn't remarkable. In fact, I don't think he'd even be decent. He can't space, can barely approach, can't combo into a finisher, and can't even punish well with a finisher. His gimping also leaves a bit to be desired.

Oh well, you and Blank can continue to argue, or the two of you could have a Sonic ditto and settle it once and for all.

 

[Shadic]

But Sheik still has trouble killing, and Fair in Melee was a really, really good move. (Oh god, I hated it.) Why not give it killing power again?

 

[goodoldganon]

But Sheik still has trouble killing, and Fair in Melee was a really, really good move. (Oh god, I hated it.) Why not give it killing power again?

Because she doesn't need it. She has a better edge game with Brawl's floatier system and her new tether recovery. The move is already good at gimping but if we give it more knockback suddenly she'll be able to gimp even better.

The point is we shouldn't need to change much about these characters. We need to buff what needs help (I.E. not Sheik) and nerf the very few things that are truly broken. Shortsighted buffs to bad moves can have drastic repercussions on the other cast members.

 

[Shadic]

I suppose I don't have enough experience with her. It seems like all she can get are gimp kills, and for a majority of the cast, that takes a lot of effort.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Sonic dittos are terrible.

And ironically, Sonic's stats on that ranking thread were made by Blank.

His endurance should be B (he's a mid weight with an amazing recovery...Unless this means litteral kill percentages, I think recovery should be taken into account) gimp resistance should be A (seriously, if you're getting gimped as Sonic then you're doing something horribly wrong, use your up B invincibility, use attacks like uair or bair after up B, and airdodge/walljump/footstool jump after your up B.), his spacing should be D (he'll mostly just be messing with the opponent's spacing, but just standing outside their range and reacting accordingly), combo finisher should be D (sure dair isn't 100% reliable, but when you land that it sets up for edgeguards, and uair and bair are still decent combo finishers, and punish KOs should be C (pivot f-smash is great. Especially since it's safe on block in case you mistime your punishment)

Stats suddenly looking a lot better huh.

 

[Finns7]

How do I use the codes for links upB buff? should the kb code be included?

 

[Blank Mauser]

^^Sonic dittos are terrible.

And ironically, Sonic's stats on that ranking thread were made by Blank.

His endurance should be B (he's a mid weight with an amazing recovery...Unless this means litteral kill percentages, I think recovery should be taken into account) gimp resistance should be A (seriously, if you're getting gimped as Sonic then you're doing something horribly wrong, use your up B invincibility, use attacks like uair or bair after up B, and airdodge/walljump/footstool jump after your up B.), his spacing should be D (he'll mostly just be messing with the opponent's spacing, but just standing outside their range and reacting accordingly), combo finisher should be D (sure dair isn't 100% reliable, but when you land that it sets up for edgeguards, and uair and bair are still decent combo finishers, and punish KOs should be C (pivot f-smash is great. Especially since it's safe on block in case you mistime your punishment)

Stats suddenly looking a lot better huh.

I didn't make most those stats. I gave suggestions to Jiang and he only changed a few of the ones I actually mentioned.

As far as matchups go, he has quite a few bad ones. I've mentioned it in the B+ Brigade forums but they seem to be abandoned.

I'm sorry I'm a predictable Sonic. If I don't agree with you it must mean I'm a bad player.

As far as I'm concerned, Sonic is very deserving of buffs. I'd rather wait for tourney results because in theory every character should be able to beat any other character, but the practical usage of Sonic is limited compared to others. I'm tired of arguing techniques for a character who's strengths are entirely situational.

 

[Greenpoe]

Because she doesn't need it. She has a better edge game with Brawl's floatier system and her new tether recovery. The move is already good at gimping but if we give it more knockback suddenly she'll be able to gimp even better.

The point is we shouldn't need to change much about these characters. We need to buff what needs help (I.E. not Sheik) and nerf the very few things that are truly broken. Shortsighted buffs to bad moves can have drastic repercussions on the other cast members.

Jiggly doesn't need a rest buff, but it's her signature move.
Falcon Punch doesn't need a buff, but let's face it, the knockback is pathetic compared to Melee/64.

How about increasing the scaling, but decreasing the base knockback? That way, at mid-percents, it becomes worse for gimping (and Sheik is already a fantastic gimper, so it's good that it would make her a little worse at that, so it gives those easily gimped more of a chance) but at the higher percents, it becomes a decent KO move, so that she can fight against those who aren't easily gimped? I know that would make it worse for characters easily gimped at higher percents, but that wouldn't matter if they were already dead by the mid percents.

 

[CountKaiser]

So it goes from

C B A A D F D C F D C

to

B A A A D D D C D C C

This isn't really better, you just added an extra A to BAD.

But in all seriousness, I think they were going to buff Sonic's dsmash somehow. Would you be against this?

This'd be a lot easier if Malcom would just play brawl+.

 

[trojanpooh]

Jiggly doesn't need a rest buff, but it's her signature move.

This. Despite balance being important, if a character has a signature move, it should remain intact. I have another idea too.

Luigi's B^ has less lag when it connects. It seems dumb that if the move doesn't kill you are left to die.

 

[kupo15]

Luigi's B^ has less lag when it connects. It seems dumb that if the move doesn't kill you are left to die.

I think that all up b landing lags could use a reduction. 25% reduction seems good from my testing

 

[professor mgw]

ummm quick question, where do u even enter da codes?

 

[Shell]

Jiggly doesn't need a rest buff, but it's her signature move.
Falcon Punch doesn't need a buff, but let's face it, the knockback is pathetic compared to Melee/64.

How about increasing the scaling, but decreasing the base knockback? That way, at mid-percents, it becomes worse for gimping (and Sheik is already a fantastic gimper, so it's good that it would make her a little worse at that, so it gives those easily gimped more of a chance) but at the higher percents, it becomes a decent KO move, so that she can fight against those who aren't easily gimped? I know that would make it worse for characters easily gimped at higher percents, but that wouldn't matter if they were already dead by the mid percents.

The base KB is exactly what makes this move good. Decreasing that and slightly increasing growth rate would just make it mediocre in both respects.

Consider this: Killing for her is as hard as comboing is easy. That's balance. And before you yell "Falcon!" Sheik has other advantages over him, such as a much better recovery and moves with greater range and general priority, as well as a projectile and a whole other moveset (!).

Could we just have the BR vote on this issue already to stop all of the cries for buffs?

 

[Greenpoe]

The base KB is exactly what makes this move good. Decreasing that and slightly increasing growth rate would just make it mediocre in both respects.

Consider this: Killing for her is as hard as comboing is easy. That's balance. And before you yell "Falcon!" Sheik has other advantages over him, such as a much better recovery and moves with greater range and general priority, as well as a projectile and a whole other moveset (!).

Could we just have the BR vote on this issue already to stop all of the cries for buffs?

My point was that increasing the scaling a lot would make it a good KO move.

 

[leafgreen386]

Although I don't think buffs should be given haphazardly, I completely disagree with dark sonic in this instance. Characters that are good should not receive buffs. No. But, characters that are decent or sub-par should be buffed. There is a lot we can do to balance characters. There's also a lot we can do that would easily make one overpowered. However, I think the easiest and most effective way of balancing this game would be to distribute buffs to the characters until we feel they are all "high" tier material. If a character feels like they're mid tier, then there's something wrong. Mid tier basically means "barely usable" while low tier is "unusable at all." High tier is what we're really looking at when we talk about a character being "viable." Of course, we would nerf the obvious tops such as metaknight enough to bring them down to high tier.

Also, who says that high combo power and kill potential together makes for a broken character? Look at falcon. He can combo people like crazy into a knee, which kills people at like 90.

For the people who are wanting a sheik buff in return for the ftilt nerf... I don't think this is too unreasonable. I think that giving her fair the killing power it had in melee is unreasonable, however. That thing killed you in melee at 90, even with good DI. Unlike falcon, shiek has some actual priority, so this would be too much of a buff, I think. If the move killed around 120% or so with good DI then I think it would be perfectly fine and keep the character balanced. It doesn't kill until at least 150% right now. What might actually be a slightly more appropriate buff would be to raise the uair's and nair's base kb. Both of these moves have sweetspots that last briefly that are getting fixed to begin with, but the hits themselves aren't that strong. This would buff her ability to kill on either of these moves by no more than 10%, meaning opponents will still have to be up at least at 120% or so to get killed, which I think is actually a fair percent to be killing at. Even characters who have "bad" kill moves should be killing by 120% on a regular basis imo. This would also compliment her "combo-oriented" game, as currently you can be punished for landing these two moves at a low percent if you try to follow up.

If you're going to argue that players should be forced to switch to zelda for their kills, then... screw you. If you want to play as sheik, play as sheik. If you want to play as zelda, play as zelda. We should not be making people want to use zelda because they need her in order to get kills as sheik. We should be making people want to play as zelda by making them want to play as zelda. They are their own separate characters, and should be treated as such. This means that neither of these characters should be neglected just because "they have their other half." PT was fixed to be able to operate the pokemon independently. I don't see why we shouldn't do the same, here.

 

[matt4300]

Ah, sigh. Why is it that the person who discovers the code never gets as much credit as the person who makes it into a usable code? You have no idea how hard it was to find that code in the first place - guess I owe it to irony... Irony and laziness on my part

(yes I know, I sound insanely spiteful - but we're all allowed to show a bit of malice every now and then aren't we?)

Crap sorry man... I didnt think you even checked this board any more. I have only ever seen you post 2 times and that was awhile back. Your a freakin legend . When brawl + gets big everyone who plays will know your name. Hard to beat that. spunit , PW, igglyboo, short fuse, almas, kirbyiscool, PK, Y.S (i actualy have never heard of [Nuke]) enjoy your celebrity status. You guys can join the ranks of miyamoto, sakuria (before he lost his mind) and marti and starsky wong as my personal fave vid game "developers" of all time lol. (yes I know that people like kupo, shanus, cape, muba, ect... are working very hard on this aswell!)

 

[cman]

Why not make the switch a lot faster between shiek and zelda (is that possible)? That would be a much better buff than changing any single move in my opinion.

 

[Problem2]

^^^^^^
The long time is because the Wii has to load the character in Brawl unlike in Melee where both of them were loaded before the fight. If you pause, they change at Melee's speed.

@ Leafgreen:
Sheik and Zelda are two characters that are given the ability to change between to swap in the middle of battle. Why is encouraging a reason to switch not tolerable? They're unique characters, but they share the same character selection icon and they were originally designed to compliment each other. I think that it's thoughtless to buff one to make the other one useless.

And before you ask, I had also opposed the Trainer no switch as I thought the forced switch served the purpose of making the player use all 3 pokemon. The secondary effect that they got weaker when left out too long was pretty dumb though.

 

[PanzerOceania]

that's actually a great idea cman.

 

[cman]

^^^^^^
The long time is because the Wii has to load the character in Brawl unlike in Melee where both of them were loaded before the fight. If you pause, they change at Melee's speed.

Is it possible to force the game to load them both at the beginning?

 

[leafgreen386]

Why not make the switch a lot faster between shiek and zelda (is that possible)? That would be a much better buff than changing any single move in my opinion.

Unfortunately, it's due to the way the game loads the model. The game only loads the other model when you actually hit the button to transform. We'd have to entirely rework that, and if we made it pre-load the data, where would it be stored?

Problem2: No. We would not buff one while leaving the other to suck. That's exactly the opposite of what I said. I said that we should encourage use of both characters by actually making both characters good. You shouldn't have to play both characters if you don't want to. Forcing the player to use multiple characters to get the same effectiveness as one is a flawed mechanic imo.

 

[matt4300]

This... even the semi spike as cool as it is.

i agree with all of this.

i don't want link's semi spike (make his combo or finishing options better.. instead of making him camp for a finisher..), or jiggly's melee rest (make her rest less punishable.. we can do that now), or captain falcons reverse knee (what the **** is this for? why does falcon need this) or even sheiks fair.

we should look at what KIND of character they are. metaknight is supposed to a gimper/damage building character that SHOULD have a hard time KOing. he's supposed to be similar to sheik, so i would suggest lowering the kill potential of of his moves.

i'm really getting worried about what changes people want to make. there's like no direction, and people are pushing for stupid, unnecessary changes when other characters are in need of buffs/nerfs.

We shouldnt change the way a char plays ( the mains and secondarys of chars decide how they play no one eles should). And we really need some direction here. What happend to your list cape? things should be voted on and compiled in a thread now that we have the codes.

 

[PanzerOceania]

I don't know, I think talking about buffing link is a totally legitimate cause. And you want to nerf metaknight again before we have played him enough with current changes. I would rather expiriment with buffing lower tier characters, something that we could always drop if it didn't fit, than putting in multiple nerfs before seeing how the character holds up with the new changes in a tournament environment, don't get so hasty.

I also think that leafgreen has a good point, being able to play as just zelda or sheik and have them be more balanced stand alone characters is a good idea. It has clear direction, making them each standalone characters.

I don't see where you are coming from with this "no direction".

 

[Finns7]

Spunit, the Link spin attack code is wrong ......... There are 2 hits I believe, the initial and the final, the initial is stronger and final is weaker, the final should spike at a 45 degree (semi spike) angle not a completely downward.

 

[Shell]

Also, who says that high combo power and kill potential together makes for a broken character? Look at falcon. He can combo people like crazy into a knee, which kills people at like 90.

And before you yell "Falcon!" Sheik has other advantages over him, such as a much better recovery and moves with greater range and general priority, as well as a projectile and a whole other moveset (!).

Also, since I take it coders have already said it's impossible to trick the Wii into loading both Sheik and Zelda, could they give the transformation enough invincibility frames on ending to either spot dodge or put up a shield safely (9 frames?), but not abuse it?

Edit: I would support something like this for PT as well.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Sheik has to transform, or that she should have to transform, or that anyone should have to transform, I'm just saying it's an option you can't ignore. In addition I fully believe she is capable enough as a killer even without transforming.

 

[matt4300]

I don't know, I think talking about buffing link is a totally legitimate cause. And you want to nerf metaknight again before we have played him enough with current changes. I would rather expiriment with buffing lower tier characters, something that we could always drop if it didn't fit, than putting in multiple nerfs before seeing how the character holds up with the new changes in a tournament environment, don't get so hasty.

I also think that leafgreen has a good point, being able to play as just zelda or sheik and have them be more balanced stand alone characters is a good idea. It has clear direction, making them each standalone characters.

I don't see where you are coming from with this "no direction".

Besides the fact that we are just "shouting" out what each of us thinks would be good rather than starting with the broken things listing them out. Then makeing a list for every char that needs buffs nerfs. Wich we had but are not being used ... We need a thread of this on THIS board not a dead one.

I can make one if you guys agree. I can guarantee it will be constantly updated and I will not be biased. I have plenty of time to work on it and this char balance means more to me than just about anything eles in brawl+

 

[Finns7]

Im trying to make the game feel right. This depends on the player though.......... Shiek doesnt need a fair buff but it kinda completes here, if we make it slightly have more KB it wouldnt hurt.

Snake needs a nerf, even though this is smash, he is still human. His jab combo shouldt be that powerful and his tilts shouldnt either (utilt)

 

[Problem2]

Found this in the request thread

Not really into brawl+ but I think it would be very interesting if you could make the game pre load both Sheik and Zelda character information when one of them are picked to play.

Doing so would bypass the whole undependable loading time and would buffer Sheik/Zelda placement and relations between one another.

Who was it that said that Brawl can load up to 6 characters at once? (two being alloys though). Couldn't it be feasible to have Sheik/Zelda be preloaded before the fight?

EDIT: Nevermind. =( read above

 

[Lawlb0t]

Are some chars that bad in Brawl+? Theres no way they are worst then what they were in Brawl? And are people still working on a final real Melee airdodge and l cancel codes?

 

[Shell]

Characters aren't "that bad" but our goal is as close as we can get to everyone being tournament viable.

People like bowser did not benefit much from the codes, whereas everyone else did. So yes, it's possible to get worse relative to everyone else's improvements.

I don't believe anyone is working on those codes right now.

 

[Greenpoe]

Are some chars that bad in Brawl+? Theres no way they are worst then what they were in Brawl? And are people still working on a final real Melee airdodge and l cancel codes?

Everyone is at about a mid, high or top tier level right now.
Melee air dodge has been debated and it was decided against it.

 

[Lawlb0t]

t_t

What about manual l cancel?

 

[cobaltblue]

I don't know, I think talking about buffing link is a totally legitimate cause. And you want to nerf metaknight again before we have played him enough with current changes. I would rather expiriment with buffing lower tier characters, something that we could always drop if it didn't fit, than putting in multiple nerfs before seeing how the character holds up with the new changes in a tournament environment, don't get so hasty.

I also think that leafgreen has a good point, being able to play as just zelda or sheik and have them be more balanced stand alone characters is a good idea. It has clear direction, making them each standalone characters.

I don't see where you are coming from with this "no direction".

Well I've stated my piece over and over and have been thoroughly ignored. But to answer your no direction question, it is because people want buffs but the reason for them seem half hazard at best. Does said buff make the character better? Sure, but is it really needed? That case isn't being made at all.

Again I ask, is shiek getting pawned by over half the cast and is thus unfun to play? If I go to a B+ turnny, and play her strictly (as in no zelda) will I become cannon folder for my opponent or will I be able to hold my own and even win thanks to my skill and picking smart stage CPs ? I don't see any of these questions being answered which indicates people want to start buffing for no reason, and as Dark Sonic put it, that nerfs someone else and starts the cycle anew.

@Leaf.

You aren't forced to switch, you're just forced to work harder if you don't. How is this a problem? And since when does middle tier = garbage? Maybe I'm just biased because the characters I do main are low and actually require high skill and some luck to overcome the opponent, but I just don't see why every character must have a dail a combo to ko move.

 

[Almas]

The info for zelda/sheik could be loaded into memory, but it'd be in the wrong place. Plus, the game can't handle 6 characters. It can handle 4 characters and 3 alloys.

 

[cobaltblue]

t_t

What about manual l cancel?

Takes up a lot of lines and because auto L was voted the standard coders never really took the time to go back and see if they could cut down on it.

 

[storm92]

t_t

What about manual l cancel?

Same, we debated and decided against it.
We found it requires little to no skill to L-cancel, and therefore was just a hindrance.

 

[Greenpoe]

I don't see any of these questions being answered which indicates people want to start buffing for no reason, and as Dark Sonic put it, that nerfs someone else and starts the cycle anew.

You're missing Leaf's point, that we're amining for a certain level. If they go beyond this level, we can nerf them. If they're not yet at this level, let's buff them a little. This level is high tier.

 

[cobaltblue]

You're missing Leaf's point, that we're amining for a certain level. If they go beyond this level, we can nerf them. If they're not yet at this level, let's buff them a little. This level is high tier.

And once again as DS pointed out, we'll be here for years attempting said level. The only way to make everyone such a level would be to ensure every character has X amount of easy to connect ko moves and has good follow ups and can tank. In essence clones with a different skin.

I know you guys all hate uniqueness for uniqueness sake at this point, but not all gimmicks are bad or at the very least unbearable. Just look at peach and GAW's random b moves.

Also I forget who but I think someone actually made a case for how shiek is garbage without her broken tilt now. Those types of arguments should be the reasons why characters get buffs, not for the mythical everyone's a winner tier.