COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[GHNeko]

I think MK is the only character nobody has asked for a buff to yet...

Okay.

Let me be completely serious.

Should we really BUFF MK?

 

[trojanpooh]

Okay.

Let me be completely serious.

Should we really BUFF MK?

His infinite dimensional cape is too hard to do, we should make it easier.

 

[Sanu]

Okay.

Let me be completely serious.

Should we really BUFF MK?

Long answer: No
Short answer: No

 

[GHNeko]

His infinite dimensional cape is too hard to do, we should make it easier.

Oh. Okay.

10ohokays

 

[cobaltblue]

The only buff MK needs is to be allowed to unplug your opponents controller when he's chosen and declare victory.

 

[kupo15]

So wait one second. Do we not need collision bubble tags for the kb code cause I didn't see it? Do we just need to know the launch speed of the hitbox we want to modify and that is how we ID the hitbox we want?

 

[trojanpooh]

Has anyone considered giving MK Jigglypuff's shield? That would be a good nerf should it be deemed necessary. But I think MK is good for now, buffs are better than nerfs.

 

[GameSystem]

I honestly think this will go back to the uniqueness factor and draw backs. Transforming back and forth is apart of the character and a weakness that the player has to overcome through skill. It is no different than a samus main having to get in time to charge up a beam shot.

As for PT, he is a different character altogether. Secondly prior to B+ the player was required to know how to operate all 3 of them in order to be halfway decent or he faced a diffcult uphill battle in killing when stamina kicked in or if he got ko'd.

I may be a bit bias because I do not main Shiek and as a Zsamus/Sonic main dealing with hard to set up ko moves is part of the territory. However I just don't feel she really needs anything as she does not get pawned by half the cast and she is quite the monster in the hands of a pro.

Just because it is unique does not mean that it is good. This same argument was done for the independent pokemon. Stamina is a weakness that makes the character unique. I guess the player just needs to overcome that through skill right? It is completely different from Samus's charge shot. For one, you can pause the charge at any time by rolling or pressing R, then continuing again when it's safe. Two, after the move is charged, you can shoot it really fast. It's faster than most smash attacks, and can be done in the air.

Someone said that Sheik is a combo character and should have no kill options and should stay that way to keep the character unique. I mention MK and say that he had both combos and easy finishers. We all understand why we are nerfing him, but then you go and nerf sheik who only has one half of what MK does. I know that the ftilt lock is broken, but at least give her compensation.
There are too many double standards. Everyone is ok with giving Captain Falcon the MELEE reverse knee. Everyone is ok with giving Link the MELEE semi spike on weak hit up b. Everyone is ok with giving puff MELEE rest. I think her rest was a unique move. It had a flower effect. That's cool right? Why shouldn't we give Sheik her MELEE fair?

 

[Alopex]

The new Teching code is longer than the previous one. So how badly do we really need it?

 

[goodoldganon]

The new Teching code is longer than the previous one. So how badly do we really need it?

Does the new tech code not allow you to hold L/R to tech? If so I believe that is kinda neccessary since it doesn't allow you to tech moves before they even hit you. But considering line space we should stick with our current code for the 3.4 release.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Just because it is unique does not mean that it is good. This same argument was done for the independent pokemon. Stamina is a weakness that makes the character unique. I guess the player just needs to overcome that through skill right? It is completely different from Samus's charge shot. For one, you can pause the charge at any time by rolling or pressing R, then continuing again when it's safe. Two, after the move is charged, you can shoot it really fast. It's faster than most smash attacks, and can be done in the air.

Someone said that Sheik is a combo character and should have no kill options and should stay that way to keep the character unique. I mention MK and say that he had both combos and easy finishers. We all understand why we are nerfing him, but then you go and nerf sheik who only has one half of what MK does. I know that the ftilt lock is broken, but at least give her compensation.
There are too many double standards. Everyone is ok with giving Captain Falcon the MELEE reverse knee. Everyone is ok with giving Link the MELEE semi spike on weak hit up b. Everyone is ok with giving puff MELEE rest. I think her rest was a unique move. It had a flower effect. That's cool right? Why shouldn't we give Sheik her MELEE fair?

i agree with all of this.

i don't want link's semi spike (make his combo or finishing options better.. instead of making him camp for a finisher..), or jiggly's melee rest (make her rest less punishable.. we can do that now), or captain falcons reverse knee (what the **** is this for? why does falcon need this) or even sheiks fair.

we should look at what KIND of character they are. metaknight is supposed to a gimper/damage building character that SHOULD have a hard time KOing. he's supposed to be similar to sheik, so i would suggest lowering the kill potential of of his moves.

i'm really getting worried about what changes people want to make. there's like no direction, and people are pushing for stupid, unnecessary changes when other characters are in need of buffs/nerfs.

 

[kupo15]

^^ Not buff jiggs rest? Are you serious?

 

[goodoldganon]

^^ Not buff jiggs rest? Are you serious?

I'd rather make it less punishable instead of kill at absurd percentages. She can combo into it. She can still WoP and do her Jigglypuff thing. Rest doesn't need to be buffed.

 

[GameSystem]

Wake up animation 2x faster please

 

[goodoldganon]

Wake up animation 2x faster please

I'd rather have this.

 

[kupo15]

I'd rather make it less punishable instead of kill at absurd percentages. She can combo into it. She can still WoP and do her Jigglypuff thing. Rest doesn't need to be buffed.

And sheik doesn't need her ftilt nerfed. Moving on.. :\

 

[Greenpoe]

Just because it is unique does not mean that it is good. This same argument was done for the independent pokemon. Stamina is a weakness that makes the character unique. I guess the player just needs to overcome that through skill right? It is completely different from Samus's charge shot. For one, you can pause the charge at any time by rolling or pressing R, then continuing again when it's safe. Two, after the move is charged, you can shoot it really fast. It's faster than most smash attacks, and can be done in the air.

Someone said that Sheik is a combo character and should have no kill options and should stay that way to keep the character unique. I mention MK and say that he had both combos and easy finishers. We all understand why we are nerfing him, but then you go and nerf sheik who only has one half of what MK does. I know that the ftilt lock is broken, but at least give her compensation.
There are too many double standards. Everyone is ok with giving Captain Falcon the MELEE reverse knee. Everyone is ok with giving Link the MELEE semi spike on weak hit up b. Everyone is ok with giving puff MELEE rest. I think her rest was a unique move. It had a flower effect. That's cool right? Why shouldn't we give Sheik her MELEE fair?

Remember in the early days when people didn't argue of "No, that's too broken" or "We don't need to buff someone who's already decent"; instead, the mottoes were, "If you that character's mains give it to them, why not?" and "Let's try it. If it's broken, we can turn it off."
Let's just nerf Sheik's f-tilt by giving it more knockback, but buff her fair by increasing the knockback. Why? Her F-tilt is hugely essential to her style. I mean, look at the Link mains. Making D-tilt and spin-attack into spikes were major buffs for them, even though someone who doesn't play Link wouldn't have guessed that. It's the same with Sheik. She has so many options out of f-tilt, but if we're removing that, then to keep her as a good character, let's buff her fair knockback, like Melee.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

Jigg's rest sooo needs a buff.

 

[Shadic]

Rest kills at higher percentages than a lot of her Smashes, does it not? And it's a hard move to land. Make it work like it used to.

 

[trojanpooh]

I say a small buff to kill % and to speed

 

[cobaltblue]

Just because it is unique does not mean that it is good. This same argument was done for the independent pokemon. Stamina is a weakness that makes the character unique. I guess the player just needs to overcome that through skill right? It is completely different from Samus's charge shot. For one, you can pause the charge at any time by rolling or pressing R, then continuing again when it's safe. Two, after the move is charged, you can shoot it really fast. It's faster than most smash attacks, and can be done in the air.

PT was more or less agreed to be garbage without said changes. Or at the very least undesirable and non play worthy. Shiek without your suggestions is still good, still a threat, and can kill on her own if the player really wants to. And even if you can't kill you can use her speed to run like hell across the stage change, finish up with Zelda, and then change again inbetween matchs to start anew. If you're on a short stage consider that a disadvantage just like ike has on large stages that allow for people to gimp him easy.

But lets give her a kill move for a second, what makes her different from the others? Why use zelda if one can just combo up the opponent and then connect with the easy kill? What is her weakness/fault if she is a jack of all trades again? Instead of approaching this from how can I make her better, look at it from "does she really need something so I'm not a free lunch for my oppoenent" perspective.

Someone said that Sheik is a combo character and should have no kill options and should stay that way to keep the character unique. I mention MK and say that he had both combos and easy finishers. We all understand why we are nerfing him, but then you go and nerf sheik who only has one half of what MK does. I know that the ftilt lock is broken, but at least give her compensation.

Why does she need compensation? Is she getting gimped by over half the cast? You keep bringing up MK but we already realize he is broken and needs to be nerfed (which he is getting). However this doesn't mean everyone needs to be a Swiss army pocket knife and be able to do it all. Why not while we're at it speed up ike so he can do some wicked combos? Or have sonic give sonic a nice deadly finisher?

There are too many double standards. Everyone is ok with giving Captain Falcon the MELEE reverse knee. Everyone is ok with giving Link the MELEE semi spike on weak hit up b. Everyone is ok with giving puff MELEE rest. I think her rest was a unique move. It had a flower effect. That's cool right? Why shouldn't we give Sheik her MELEE fair?

Trust me when I say I feel the same with the CF stuff, especially when the changing hurt my main. Link needed something because unlike shiek he gets beaten left right and center like a red headed step child. Unless you are the god of mind games there was no getting around getting lolie stomped. Jiggly's rest has next to no range at all and thus the risk/reward ratio of it is completely skewed. And like link the majority of the cast gives her trouble.

 

[kupo15]

I say a small buff to kill % and to speed

Speed is not necessary. Just give it the killing power it had

There are too many double standards. Everyone is ok with giving Captain Falcon the MELEE reverse knee. Everyone is ok with giving Link the MELEE semi spike on weak hit up b. Everyone is ok with giving puff MELEE rest. I think her rest was a unique move. It had a flower effect. That's cool right? Why shouldn't we give Sheik her MELEE fair?

I see nothing wrong with giving sheik a better slap as long as she loses the ftilt crap.

 

[cobaltblue]

i agree with all of this.

i don't want link's semi spike (make his combo or finishing options better.. instead of making him camp for a finisher..), or jiggly's melee rest (make her rest less punishable.. we can do that now), or captain falcons reverse knee (what the **** is this for? why does falcon need this) or even sheiks fair.

we should look at what KIND of character they are. metaknight is supposed to a gimper/damage building character that SHOULD have a hard time KOing. he's supposed to be similar to sheik, so i would suggest lowering the kill potential of of his moves.

i'm really getting worried about what changes people want to make. there's like no direction, and people are pushing for stupid, unnecessary changes when other characters are in need of buffs/nerfs.

Your post confuses me. You agree with him yet he is arguing against what you want by wanting to turn a comboer/damage racker character into one that can also string into easy kos and thus completely change her design.

And what you said in the last paragraph is why I'm so OD on this. Without direction characters are going to get buffs simply because they can and not because they need. This is especially bad when its being done by a select few and not by the metagame.

 

[Greenpoe]

PT was more or less agreed to be garbage without said changes. Or at the very least undesirable and non play worthy. Shiek without your suggestions is still good, still a threat, and can kill on her own if the player really wants to. And even if you can't kill you can use her speed to run like hell across the stage change, finish up with Zelda, and then change again inbetween matchs to start anew. If you're on a short stage consider that a disadvantage just like ike has on large stages that allow for people to gimp him easy.

But lets give her a kill move for a second, what makes her different from the others? Why use zelda if one can just combo up the opponent and then connect with the easy kill? What is her weakness/fault if she is a jack of all trades again? Instead of approaching this from how can I make her better, look at it from "does she really need something so I'm not a free lunch for my oppoenent" perspective.



Why does she need compensation? Is she getting gimped by over half the cast? You keep bringing up MK but we already realize he is broken and needs to be nerfed (which he is getting). However this doesn't mean everyone needs to be a Swiss army pocket knife and be able to do it all. Why not while we're at it speed up ike so he can do some wicked combos? Or have sonic give sonic a nice deadly finisher?



Trust me when I say I feel the same with the CF stuff, especially when the changing hurt my main. Link needed something because unlike shiek he gets beaten left right and center like a red headed step child. Unless you are the god of mind games there was no getting around getting lolie stomped. Jiggly's rest has next to no range at all and thus the risk/reward ratio of it is completely skewed. And like link the majority of the cast gives her trouble.

Giving Sheik a fair buff would be giving her one reliable kill move...
Just because you want Sheik players to KO with Zelda doesn't mean they should. Besides, if you run away and transform, most characters will punish that, unless your on Temple or something. Anyway, Zelda KO's easily and early. So, the best Sheik player in the world would use Zelda even with a fair buff. The best Sheik player in the world would switch once they're at about 80% if he gets the opportunity, and then use one of Zelda's many KO moves. But sometimes you don't get the opportunity, and some people don't want to play as Zelda. Besides, it's not like a fair buff would kill like Falcon's knee (Making it TOO powerful would just make it broken).

I see nothing wrong with giving sheik a better slap as long as she loses the ftilt crap.

QFT.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

I see nothing wrong with giving sheik a better slap as long as she loses the ftilt crap.

Yeah man, ninja slap is what made Sheik, Sheik, that and needles in the eye.

Question, is anyone annoyed as to how you have to press B twice to shoot needles? I've always wondered if we could get that changed back down to 1 button press. I know it's a VERY minor thing, and completely not necessary right now, but it's definitely more convenient.

Speed is not necessary. Just give it the killing power it had.

I remember the good days of killing Spacies and other fast fallers/fatties at 30% with an Uthrow->Rest.
So hot.

 

[Dark Sonic]

WE SHOULD ONLY BE BUFFING BAD CHARACTERS.

I'm seriously sick and tired of all these other changes just to make your character "play better." Sheik loses the f-tilt lock because the f-tilt lock was broken. BUT DOES SHEIK SUDDENLY BECOME A GARBAGE CHARACTER WITHOUT IT? What exactly makes Sheik so bad that she needs a buff? If you beleive that Sheik will be bad without that f-tilt, then just say so and explain how she's bad! Then people would be more likely to listen to your buff ideas.

Link is bad so we're buffing him. We're not just making him more like melee Link, it's just that those changes really would fix him.

Jigglypuff I'm on the fence about. Does she really need a buff? I honestly need to know more about Jigglypuff before I can make an informed decision about it. If she does indeed need a buff, then rest would be a good way to do it. But if she doesn't...then I really don't care how horrible a move rest is, because if Jiggs is not bad then she shouldn't be buffed. This applies to Wario and his mediocre downsmash, Sonic and his uptilt/homming attack, ect, ect.

Why you ask? Because these bad moves create the core of the character's weaknesses. It's the character's lack of options in certain situations that counterbalances their strengths. But most often when people suggest to buff bad moves, it's to eliminate these weaknesses, rather than bolstering their strengths. Eliminating weaknesses or adding new strengths (such as giving a character a more reliable ground approach, or an anti air move, ect.) scews balance far more drastically than any other possible change, because it drastically changes matchups. While this is fine for bad characters (since essentially they needed that overhall just to be playable), it is not okay for characters who are not bad, because all this does is arbitrarily scew game balance.

-You think character A could be better if you buff x move, so you buff it even though character A doesn't really need it. Character A now has new options due to x move buff, so now character B has a bad matchup against character A, making character B a worse character (it's not uncommon for an entire matchup to turn around because of one or two moves). Now mains of character B come and ask for a change to y move, so that character B preforms better (since now he's not as good remember). The cycle repeats since you cannot justify buffing one character over another due to having too loose of a criteria ("the move is bad").

This is why you should have very strict criteria for buffing. I know that everybody enjoys buffs, but people forget that buffs are essentially nerfs to other characters that had a favorable matchup against that character (and especially to characters that now have trouble against them).

 

[kupo15]

I remember the good days of killing Spacies and other fast fallers/fatties at 30% with an Uthrow->Rest.
So hot.

My friend wants to slit his wrists every time he rests. So its no longer resting to kill, he rests for the novelty of landing it regardless of punishment. That's sad.

What people don't understand is that most characters (the old cast) already have their style laid out in front of them from the past two games already so there is no need to reinvent the wheel with buffs that don't even make sense. So you have something as obvious as jiggs rest that needs to be buffed because it is in fact true to their character that has been established ages ago and should remain unless they didn't somehow drastically change in brawl.

 

[trojanpooh]

Eh...I'm not sure what to think about Jiggs. She became one of my mains due to the major buff of her rest, as I needed to use new tactics. Now that I'm much better with her, maybe I could learn to use good ol' rest in an effective way.

 

[cobaltblue]

Giving Sheik a fair buff would be giving her one reliable kill move...
Just because you want Sheik players to KO with Zelda doesn't mean they should. Besides, if you run away and transform, most characters will punish that, unless your on Temple or something. Anyway, Zelda KO's easily and early. So, the best Sheik player in the world would use Zelda even with a fair buff. The best Sheik player in the world would switch once they're at about 80% if he gets the opportunity, and then use one of Zelda's many KO moves. But sometimes you don't get the opportunity, and some people don't want to play as Zelda. Besides, it's not like a fair buff would kill like Falcon's knee (Making it TOO powerful would just make it broken).


QFT.

And you want to give her a buff without reason, hence why we're all debating for the betterment of the game. The whole point I have been drawing out of this debate is that changes are being made without real logic or a reason for why they're needed. Every character so far that I've seen that has been brought up for a real change was either:

A. Garbage and a free pass go (Falcon, PT, Ice Climbers, Bowser)
B. Not quite there but close to being decent with a few tweeks (Link, Samus)
C. God (Metaknight)

But my question ultimately is why (hey I can do bold too!) does a already good char need a buff? Was the ftilt lock the complete and total bread and butter to her? Is just complete trash now without it and get pawned by the ice climbers without it or the slap of doom? I really want to understand why because once you start on the path of buff for ****s and giggles it won't stop because someone else will refer to this or some other example and complain if you did it why can't we buff my otherwise awesome working char.

Running away: You can't run away in time for a transformation? Thats called a weakness. No different than bowser having a hard time closing the space on a spammer or ike getting chucked off the edge of a with a wide margin between it and the blast line. As for not wanting to play as zelda, there choice. No different than how now a squirtle player can chosse the play only him at the cost of more kb moves as charlizard.


Edit: Dark sonic once again you read my mind perfectly.

 

[GimR]

WE SHOULD ONLY BE BUFFING BAD CHARACTERS.

I'm seriously sick and tired of all these other changes just to make your character "play better." Sheik loses the f-tilt lock because the f-tilt lock was broken. BUT DOES SHEIK SUDDENLY BECOME A GARBAGE CHARACTER WITHOUT IT? What exactly makes Sheik so bad that she needs a buff? If you beleive that Sheik will be bad without that f-tilt, then just say so and explain how she's bad! Then people would be more likely to listen to your buff ideas.

Link is bad so we're buffing him. We're not just making him more like melee Link, it's just that those changes really would fix him.

Jigglypuff I'm on the fence about. Does she really need a buff? I honestly need to know more about Jigglypuff before I can make an informed decision about it. If she does indeed need a buff, then rest would be a good way to do it. But if she doesn't...then I really don't care how horrible a move rest is, because if Jiggs is not bad then she shouldn't be buffed. This applies to Wario and his mediocre downsmash, Sonic and his uptilt/homming attack, ect, ect.

Why you ask? Because these bad moves create the core of the character's weaknesses. It's the character's lack of options in certain situations that counterbalances their strengths. But most often when people suggest to buff bad moves, it's to eliminate these weaknesses, rather than bolstering their strengths. Eliminating weaknesses or adding new strengths (such as giving a character a more reliable ground approach, or an anti air move, ect.) scews balance far more drastically than any other possible change, because it drastically changes matchups. While this is fine for bad characters (since essentially they needed that overhall just to be playable), it is not okay for characters who are not bad, because all this does is arbitrarily scew game balance.

-You think character A could be better if you buff x move, so you buff it even though character A doesn't really need it. Character A now has new options due to x move buff, so now character B has a bad matchup against character A, making character B a worse character (it's not uncommon for an entire matchup to turn around because of one or two moves). Now mains of character B come and ask for a change to y move, so that character B preforms better (since now he's not as good remember). The cycle repeats since you cannot justify buffing one character over another due to having too loose of a criteria ("the move is bad").

This is why you should have very strict criteria for buffing. I know that everybody enjoys buffs, but people forget that buffs are essentially nerfs to other characters that had a favorable matchup against that character (and especially to characters that now have trouble against them).

Or we could just pull a Capcom and and Buff all of the characters, and try to get rid of all of their weaknesses, which in a sense balcances the game by making everyone broken lol, J/K

you ever played Tatsunoko vs. Capcom?

 

[shanus]

WE SHOULD ONLY BE BUFFING BAD CHARACTERS.

I'm seriously sick and tired of all these other changes just to make your character "play better." Sheik loses the f-tilt lock because the f-tilt lock was broken. BUT DOES SHEIK SUDDENLY BECOME A GARBAGE CHARACTER WITHOUT IT? What exactly makes Sheik so bad that she needs a buff? If you beleive that Sheik will be bad without that f-tilt, then just say so and explain how she's bad! Then people would be more likely to listen to your buff ideas.

Link is bad so we're buffing him. We're not just making him more like melee Link, it's just that those changes really would fix him.

Jigglypuff I'm on the fence about. Does she really need a buff? I honestly need to know more about Jigglypuff before I can make an informed decision about it. If she does indeed need a buff, then rest would be a good way to do it. But if she doesn't...then I really don't care how horrible a move rest is, because if Jiggs is not bad then she shouldn't be buffed. This applies to Wario and his mediocre downsmash, Sonic and his uptilt/homming attack, ect, ect.

Why you ask? Because these bad moves create the core of the character's weaknesses. It's the character's lack of options in certain situations that counterbalances their strengths. But most often when people suggest to buff bad moves, it's to eliminate these weaknesses, rather than bolstering their strengths. Eliminating weaknesses or adding new strengths (such as giving a character a more reliable ground approach, or an anti air move, ect.) scews balance far more drastically than any other possible change, because it drastically changes matchups. While this is fine for bad characters (since essentially they needed that overhall just to be playable), it is not okay for characters who are not bad, because all this does is arbitrarily scew game balance.

-You think character A could be better if you buff x move, so you buff it even though character A doesn't really need it. Character A now has new options due to x move buff, so now character B has a bad matchup against character A, making character B a worse character (it's not uncommon for an entire matchup to turn around because of one or two moves). Now mains of character B come and ask for a change to y move, so that character B preforms better (since now he's not as good remember). The cycle repeats since you cannot justify buffing one character over another due to having too loose of a criteria ("the move is bad").

This is why you should have very strict criteria for buffing. I know that everybody enjoys buffs, but people forget that buffs are essentially nerfs to other characters that had a favorable matchup against that character (and especially to characters that now have trouble against them).

I wish I could quote this about 50 times over. People, remember the goal of this code is not to rewrite the entire game. This is to strictly be used to nerf broken strategies and assist a few characters which are lacking. People are going way over the top with proposed changes and its really bad.

SUMMARY: READ DARKSONIC'S POST. THEN READ IT AGAIN.

 

[cobaltblue]

^Isn't that what capcom did with Street Fight II Remix?

I think the result it took years of fan input and they made sure everyone could give atleast one char trouble.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Or we could just pull a Capcom and and Buff all of the characters, and try to get rid of all of their weaknesses, which in a sense balcances the game by making everyone broken lol, J/K

you ever played Tatsunoko vs. Capcom?

That could take years of work to get right, and a lot of play testing.

Unless you don't want to wait until 2010 to play a balanced brawl+...I'd think the other route would be better.

And I want to play that game SOOO bad. I'd main Soki for sure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIXdfQbimEE

 

[Revven]

Jigglypuff I'm on the fence about. Does she really need a buff? I honestly need to know more about Jigglypuff before I can make an informed decision about it. If she does indeed need a buff, then rest would be a good way to do it. But if she doesn't...then I really don't care how horrible a move rest is, because if Jiggs is not bad then she shouldn't be buffed. This applies to Wario and his mediocre downsmash, Sonic and his uptilt/homming attack, ect, ect.

Well, only thing I don't agree about this entire post is part. Sonic needs a better Utilt, seriously. A better Utilt would just help with his combos, it wouldn't change a whole lot like Sheik Fair buff would or Jigglypuff Rest buff would. It's a tilt and Sonic is fast, therefore, the endlag shouldn't be so terribly slow and if it does a lot of damage, tone down the damage, it's fast and doesn't do a lot of damage, balance slightly restored.

There are some moves that are just so terrible/good for a character that could be fixed to make them better/worse. I know I'd like to work on lower to mid tier characters and top tier characters than those that are high tier, there are even some mid tiers that don't need that much work but, someone like Zelda? She needs a few changes and she's not necessarily a bad character, she could be better, and the changes to her wouldn't be too bad at all. Nerf Usmash by making is have higher base knockback so she can't combo it into itself at lower percents and in exchange make her Dair spike more viable (however any way that may be) because it would help her offstage game, I don't see a problem with a buff like that (especially since spikes like Ness and Ganon's exist and they are easy as hell to hit with so why can't hers be slightly more viable?)

A buff to a move like DK's Forward B though to change the trajectory is something I'd have a problem with. I think as long as it's not TOO CRAZY A BUFF and it LENDS itself to the character and that said character needs that change to that move, it's not going to damage the balance in any way (like the change to Sonic's Utilt or his Dsmash).

We're all very ecstatic about this new code and throwing out crazy crap just because we can (and we're kinda brainstorming). I don't think it's a problem to brainstorm and try to come up with some interesting ideas and if they get shot down, at least it was something contributed, right? The things we're SURE about changing will get changed immdiately with no question (Snake's Ftilt, Sheik's Ftilt, Pika's Dthrow for example) but things like Link buffs and Sonic buffs aren't as immediate but definitely could be put in after the things we see as glaring problems.

Speaking of GLARING problems, I've been meaning to mention this but, Wario's Dthrow is a CG on Ganon and Bowser until almost 50% and it's really **** easy to do. If we're fixing Lucario's Uthrow so it can't CG easily, I think Wario's should be fixed as well but not TOO FIXED so it ruins his options with it (as it is, most characters can tech it the first time you do it at low percents so we have to be VERY careful with this throw if we were to modify it). If it had to be extremely nerfed we'd buff his Uthrow in exchange then.

 

[shanus]

As I mentioned previously, I don't think there are many more changes than those listed below (besides a few throw tweaks):

These would be great, pretty obvious fixes for a starting point (I don't really want to change too many things besides what is broken):
-sheik ftilt (higher base knockback)
-mk dair (higher base knockback, lower scaling) (this is more of an experiment to nerf MK comboability to higher %s)
- mk fair (higher base knockback, lower scaling) (this is more of an experiment to nerf MK comboability to higher %s)
-pika dthrow (higher base knockback)
-samus chargeshot (higher knockback, less damage)
-Link standing up+B (semi spike on 2nd hit, come out quicker)
-jiggs rest (higher base knockback) or other alternatives

 

[goodoldganon]

I remember hearing about Wario's CG on the heavies in vBrawl but it could be DI'd or something. Basically it wasn't a CG in vBrawl, at least one higher then an extra throw or two. I'm not sure what happened.

 

[Greenpoe]

My friend wants to slit his wrists every time he rests. So its no longer resting to kill, he rests for the novelty of landing it regardless of punishment. That's sad.

What people don't understand is that most characters (the old cast) already have their style laid out in front of them from the past two games already so there is no need to reinvent the wheel with buffs that don't even make sense. So you have something as obvious as jiggs rest that needs to be buffed because it is in fact true to their character that has been established ages ago and should remain unless they didn't somehow drastically change in brawl.

That's what should be done with Sheik. Besides, she deserves a buff because of the f-tilt nerf.

Sheik will be losing one of her major pillars in her style, which is the f-tilt follow-ups. Sheik players generally do a few f-tilts, then move onto other things, like a u-smash, which is why she seems at a high-tier level because of her f-tilt. Now, when you nerf it via extra knockback, she loses options, like another f-tilt, d-smash, u-smash, f-smash, etc. Thus, she is losingmuch of ability. What makes Sheik good? Is her...b-throw? Nope! Is it her d-tilt? Not really. Sheik's best ground-option is f-tilt. Why? If it lands, it leads into a very nice combo. Now, how about that nerf? If f-tilt lands, combos could be escaped via DI, aerials, or whatever. So, she loses a significant cut of what makes her good, now what could make up for that? Fair buff!

 

[Revven]

I remember hearing about Wario's CG on the heavies in vBrawl but it could be DI'd or something. Basically it wasn't a CG in vBrawl, at least one higher then an extra throw or two. I'm not sure what happened.

In vBrawl, it's a legitimate infinite on Bowser and Ganondorf if you buffer it. They can't DI it because they get put into the flinch animation much like Snake's Ftilt does. In Brawl+, his Dthrow causes a tumble to happen much earlier on EXCEPT for Bowser and Ganondorf. I just tested Bowser and Ganondorf the other night and both of them could be CG'd until almost 50% (Ganon was 42% and Bowser was 44-45%) and you can't do anything to get out of it because Wario buffers the next Dthrow so he regrabs you before you can roll away or run away.

It's a problem worth fixing if it can be without nerfing his options from it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, only thing I don't agree about this entire post is part. Sonic needs a better Utilt, seriously. A better Utilt would just help with his combos, it wouldn't change a whole lot like Sheik Fair buff would or Jigglypuff Rest buff would. It's a tilt and Sonic is fast, therefore, the endlag shouldn't be so terribly slow and if it does a lot of damage, tone down the damage, it's fast and doesn't do a lot of damage, balance slightly restored.

Oh really? You believe that buffing Sonic's uptilt would not have major changes on his game? Let me show you it's hitbox.

Uptilt is a pretty sweet anti air if you ask me. (please note that his feet don't necessarily count as hurtboxes, most noticably with the second hit of his uair.) But now I get to combo from it? Well, so much for pulling aerial approaches against Sonic (unless you have disjointed approaches yourself). There goes the Fox, Falcon, Luigi, Squirtle, ect, ect matchup. Cause now I have a nice 7 frame anit air that combos into things. You know why this is important? Because Sonic did not have a reliable anti air move before this, so aerial approaches against him are generally safe. His anti air moves are currently uptilt (which cannot be combo'd from), upsmash (which cannot be combo'd from and has significant startup), side B (which has significant startup), and sh uair (which has significant startup because he has to jump). By buffing that uptilt, you are making aerial approaches against him less viable.

See what I mean?

There are some moves that are just so terrible/good for a character that could be fixed to make them better/worse.

So? Want to buff Falcon punch?

It doesn't matter that the move is bad if the character is not bad.

I know I'd like to work on lower to mid tier characters and top tier characters than those that are high tier, there are even some mid tiers that don't need that much work but, someone like Zelda? She needs a few changes and she's not necessarily a bad character, she could be better, and the changes to her wouldn't be too bad at all.

Mid tier implies that they are usable. Which implies that they are...not bad. So they would like buffs, but they do not need buffs.

Nerf Usmash by making is have higher base knockback so she can't combo it into itself at lower percents and in exchange make her Dair spike more viable (however any way that may be) because it would help her offstage game, I don't see a problem with a buff like that (especially since spikes like Ness and Ganon's exist and they are easy as hell to hit with so why can't hers be slightly more viable?)

Because now Zelda has a much stronger edgeguarding game scewing any matchups against characters who don't have exceptional recoveries?

A buff to a move like DK's Forward B though to change the trajectory is something I'd have a problem with. I think as long as it's not TOO CRAZY A BUFF and it LENDS itself to the character and that said character needs that change to that move, it's not going to damage the balance in any way (like the change to Sonic's Utilt or his Dsmash).

You're using the term need far too loosely. I just described how a small change to one move can throw a wrench into character balance.

but things like Link buffs and Sonic buffs aren't as immediate but definitely could be put in after the things we see as glaring problems.

But Sonic doesn't need buffs. And Link is getting buffs.

 

[CountKaiser]

You sure Sonic doesn't need a buff? Blank keeps stating how Sonic is the worst character in the game.