COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[MK26]

Since when does Falcon have 40% ALR? That's ridiculous, he doesn't need it at all.

 

[CloneHat]

i'd like to avoid making shiek's fair too strong just for the plain fact that we aren't supposed to be making melee 2.0

This is giving it Melee-like properties, but it was fine in Melee, and for Brawl, they took away one of Sheik's kill moves. It isn't really copying Melee as it is restoring usefulness to a move.

 

[Dan_X]

This is giving it Melee-like properties, but it was fine in Melee, and for Brawl, they took away one of Sheik's kill moves. It isn't really copying Melee as it is restoring usefulness to a move.

Exactly! :D

 

[Eight 52]

I'd rather have dsmash as a kill move again instead of fair.

 

[Dan_X]

I'd rather have dsmash as a kill move again instead of fair.

No. That doesn't help with her KOability OFF the stage, which is the BULK of Shiek's problems.. I spend way too much time tossing the enemy around in aerial combat only to NEVER KO--- or to try wayyy to hard to kill the enemy.

 

[Eight 52]

No. That doesn't help with her KOability OFF the stage, which is the BULK of Shiek's problems.. I spend way too much time tossing the enemy around in aerial combat only to NEVER KO--- or to try wayyy to hard to kill the enemy.

She didn't have this problem in vanilla, some how it got worse in +? She's supposed to combo into fair and then throw them off the stage with fair, which you can try to gimp. But it isn't suppose to be as dumb as it was in melee, which was pretty much an easy edgeguard after 40.

 

[CanadaKid91]

hey people

I stumbled upon this thread (and Brawl+ in general) and I just want to offer some words of encouragement.
I think this is a great idea, and I commend you all on your hard work. When I have the time/resources, I'd love to try some of this stuff out.

I'm interested in seeing what you guys do to improve Ness. Possibly speed up his bat (f-smash)? Perhaps lower the attrocious lag he has on PK fire (side-b)? Seriously, that ending lag makes the move almost unusable against any half-decent opponent.

Heh, I digress...
But to EVERYONE who's working on this project, here's a simple "Thank you!" from a humble smash n00b
Keep up the good work!

CK91

 

[CloneHat]

I'm interested in seeing what you guys do to improve Ness. Possibly speed up his bat (f-smash)? Perhaps lower the attrocious lag he has on PK fire (side-b)? Seriously, that ending lag makes the move almost unusable against any half-decent opponent.

I don't play Ness, but I know the bat is an EXTREMELY powerful KO tool, and PK fire does good damage and immobilizes the enemy, even with good DI. I think those are high risk/reward moves. Maybe, idk, we could make his neutral B a little more usable?

 

[matt4300]

I don't play Ness, but I know the bat is an EXTREMELY powerful KO tool, and PK fire does good damage and immobilizes the enemy, even with good DI. I think those are high risk/reward moves. Maybe, idk, we could make his neutral B a little more usable?

LOL why is it whenever the main of a char comes in and suggests something the next poster says something like " now i dont play the char but your buffs are wrong and it thing X move should be buffed" I mean I play ness(look at sig) and those 2 moves are what I would give a speed increase 2 not the neutral B. I dont know. I just see this alot. (no offense to you at all CloneHat I'm not calling you out just using this one post as an example.)

 

[goodoldganon]

His PK fire is fine since DI isn't as strong in Brawl+ as it was in vBrawl. You kinda just gotta see it to understand what I'm saying. The bat is strong but a little too slow. Either way, Ness is a solid character. Try him out you'll love him.

 

[Shell]

This is giving it Melee-like properties, but it was fine in Melee, and for Brawl, they took away one of Sheik's kill moves. It isn't really copying Melee as it is restoring usefulness to a move.

You really thought it was fine? o_O

If it must be buffed, I'd say absolutely no more than an instant-KO at 120-125% at the edge of the stage.

To a certain point, though, people need to remember that characters will have bad matchups. Sheik shouldn't have all of her bad ones just ironed out for her with a spammable kill move, especially when Zelda's matchups cover many of Sheik's bad ones.

I know I preach switching more than people are comfortable with, but many people don't even try it or acknowledge that it can be a viable strategy (epsecially if we make it less punishable) -- I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle. Don't get carried away. I trust the BR to make a sensible decision on this.

 

[Xaej]

except the ftilt, sheik is 100% perfect just the way she is.

unbelievable combo power, and I get consistent kills from 80-90 and up, no problems at all.

juggle to side of state, then dthrow/uthrow/fthrow into fair. try running usmashes. dsmash is amazing ledgeguard. properly spaced fsmash is good KO move. needles can gimp LOTS of recoveries, adding another KO option. teleport, while not always viable, can provide a nice change in the KO set as well. throw into bair towards the closest edge kills in the 120ish area.

seriously, please don't change sheik. i love her current state just how it is.

 

[CloneHat]

@SHell:

I wasn't proposing we make it stronger than you suggested, and if Sheik has no kill power before like 130% than she's gonna have a lot more than bad matchups.

 

[Magus420]

This is giving it Melee-like properties, but it was fine f***ing dumb in Melee

fixed imo

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i can't believe im debating against giving sheik her melee fair back

 

[kupo15]

So! ...which of the values on the first line is the byte count?




I am also curious about this.(reverse knee)

The byte count is the 14 on the first line.

Falcon's sweetspotted knee hitbox is the only move in the game that doesn't have a backwards hitbox because sakuria was spiteful. Essentially this means that with proper timing, you could be facing forward and have them sent backwards just like any other move. This also makes the sweetspot not so pathetic for timing. It was 17 frames long in melee (I think) and it is 2 frames in brawl. This would make it 4.

And now thinking about it, can zelda's kicks send you the opposite way? If not, they should be fixed also

i can't believe im debating against giving sheik her melee fair back

Maybe don't give her a melee fair, but a better one than what she has now

 

[Eight 52]

The byte count is the 14 on the first line.

Falcon's sweetspotted knee hitbox is the only move in the game that doesn't have a backwards hitbox because sakuria was spiteful. Essentially this means that with proper timing, you could be facing forward and have them sent backwards just like any other move. This also makes the sweetspot not so pathetic for timing. It was 17 frames long in melee (I think) and it is 2 frames in brawl. This would make it 4.

And now thinking about it, can zelda's kicks send you the opposite way? If not, they should be fixed also


Maybe don't give her a melee fair, but a better one than what she has now

It's fine the way it is now. People complain because it doesn't have the easy mode ability like melee. Right now, it seems like the fair continues the combo chain as opposed to finishing it.

 

[CloneHat]

That's cool kupo! Is this going to be in the next beta?

 

[Alopex]

That's cool kupo! Is this going to be in the next beta?

Errr... if you can find the linespace for it, we'd be happy to use it. At the moment, this code is huge and we have NO space left.

 

[kupo15]

It's fine the way it is now. People complain because it doesn't have the easy mode ability like melee. Right now, it seems like the fair continues the combo chain as opposed to finishing it.

It won't be melee easy. Trust me.

That's cool kupo! Is this going to be in the next beta?

It should hopefully be in when gecko 2.0 comes out. We already have the code. Correction, zelda's fair/bair couldn't be reversed in melee and also in brawl probably because they are the same move for different directions unlike falcon's single direction so it wouldn't make sense to give it a reverse hitbox

You should give it a try. Just disable codes for now and just have fun with it until the new gecko

 

[CloneHat]

If in Melee the knee was 17 frames, and in the new code it's 2, I wouldn't really call that "Melee easy".

 

[kupo15]

If in Melee the knee was 17 frames, and in the new code it's 2, I wouldn't really call that "Melee easy".

Even with the code which brings it up to 4 frames, it wouldn't be melee easy by a long shot.

 

[goodoldganon]

No the knee is Brawl is 2 frames for the sweetspot. I'm against sweetspot changes. I don't know, it's been proven we can do these attacks and connect with them even in combos, it's a thin line to decide what is too tough to hit with or to perform.

 

[kupo15]

The code actually doesn't improve the timing of the regular knee sweetspot at all. You still can't approach with it like melee which I know you have a huge gripe and bias with.

 

[goodoldganon]

As I said, I'm sketchy about the idea. Anything more then 3-5 frames will be too much. But I'm open to test it since it sounds like we have the improved knee code anyway. I need to test that and the Link changes Spunit threw together.

 

[kupo15]

As I said, I'm sketchy about the idea. Anything more then 3-5 frames will be too much. But I'm open to test it since it sounds like we have the improved knee code anyway. I need to test that and the Link changes Spunit threw together.

Its funny how you down right oppose a LOT of things but can do a 180 so quickly and say your try it. I get confused. I also don't see your reasoning behind your threshold of it being "too much" but I don't really enough to debate that point. We shall throw it in when we have gecko 2 then so you and everyone can try it with the other changes we made.

 

[Magus420]

Correction, zelda's fair/bair couldn't be reversed in melee and also in brawl probably because they are the same move for different directions unlike falcon's single direction so it wouldn't make sense to give it a reverse hitbox

They could, but it was just very uncommon and weird positioning required to connect with the inner side (causes reverse hits) of the outer sweetspot hitbox without connecting with any part of the inner/weak hitbox right next to it (would make it not sweetspot).

@3:07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZnJCq9PB6M

 

[kupo15]

hot **** they could! I tried just now and couldn't which is why I came to that conclusion

 

[goodoldganon]

Its funny how you down right oppose a LOT of things but can do a 180 so quickly and say your try it. I get confused. I also don't see your reasoning behind your threshold of it being "too much" but I don't really enough to debate that point. We shall throw it in when we have gecko 2 then so you and everyone can try it with the other changes we made.

I understand but I don't want to oppose a change without first trying it. I oppose the principle but who knows, it might work out and be a worthy change. First hand experience is always better then an assumption. You know what happens when you assume...

 

[kupo15]

You know what happens when you assume...

Oh yes I do

 

[Eldiran]

The byte count is the 14 on the first line.

Thanks! That's where I expected it would be, but... why is it set to 14? From my understand of hex, that's 20 bytes, and I sure don't see anything 20 bytes long (or short) anywhere nearby. Am I misinterpreting how the byte count works?

 

[kupo15]

Each line is 8 bytes and every half is 4. So you have two full rows which is 16 plus a half (4) which equals 20. 00000000 doesn't go towards the byte count

 

[SketchHurricane]

Not a shot a t Sheik but a general question, so are we going to start ensuring that every character now has some move that lets them be able KO at around 120%? I ask this because I'd like to know what is considered a rediculous long time to KO someone.

If you're a damage racking machine, it makes sense for your KO's to suffer. Sheik was a damage racking machine because of ftilt. What we need to do now is look at her general combo and damage potential and see if it makes up for her lack of kill moves. If it doesn't, then it stands to reason that taking away ftilt warrants a buff in another area.

 

[Greenpoe]

She didn't have this problem in vanilla, some how it got worse in +? She's supposed to combo into fair and then throw them off the stage with fair, which you can try to gimp. But it isn't suppose to be as dumb as it was in melee, which was pretty much an easy edgeguard after 40.

There have been so many changes from vBrawl to plus that it's like comparing Brawl to Melee.
Still, I think we can all agree Melee power was too much, and Brawl knockback is too low. I think we can find a happy medium for Brawl+, where it would kill a mid-weight character & good DI at about 110% or so from the edge.

 

[cobaltblue]

If you're a damage racking machine, it makes sense for your KO's to suffer. Sheik was a damage racking machine because of ftilt. What we need to do now is look at her general combo and damage potential and see if it makes up for her lack of kill moves. If it doesn't, then it stands to reason that taking away ftilt warrants a buff in another area.

Yea the others explained that now. Before leaf and some other stepped in people simply wanted the buff without a why it was needed and if she was garbage without.

 

[wazgood]

What is the reasoning behind reversing the knee? I would hate comboing into it and just have them fly back towards the stage to safety.

 

[kupo15]

What is the reasoning behind reversing the knee? I would hate comboing into it and just have them fly back towards the stage to safety.

Its more utility. It only sends back if you mess up or if you want to. You have the forward hitbox and a backwards just like any other move in the game.

 

[spunit262]

Ah, sigh. Why is it that the person who discovers the code never gets as much credit as the person who makes it into a usable code? You have no idea how hard it was to find that code in the first place - guess I owe it to irony... Irony and laziness on my part

(yes I know, I sound insanely spiteful - but we're all allowed to show a bit of malice every now and then aren't we?)

It's not my fault, I even put you first on a lot of them.

Tech window [spunit262, Phantom Wings]
047B5DE8 00000014

And PW I think what you found might be able to be used make a ledge tech code, you only need to force a collision with a wall during SDI, I'll send you PM at GSC too as I don't know how often you check here.

 

[leafgreen386]

Tbh, I see the reverse knee implemented in this manner as possibly actually really screwing with edgeguards. Before, if you missed the sweetspot when edgeguarding, you could just double jump uair which knocks them further off. Now, if you slightly mistime it, they'll just be sent back to the stage, and you'll be the one getting edgeguarded.

That's if I'm understanding the way you implemented this correctly. You just made the second hitbox send backwards with more knockback, yes? I think that a longer sweetspot would be more beneficial, and if you really want a reverse knee, you can just RAR one. Making the backwards hit go by different rules than the rest of the game just seems a little odd to me.

 

[ratts]

I thought it was making the move operate like the rest of the game from what kupo described. Also if you have to time it well or there are consequences, isn't that a good thing?