Character Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

So ZeRo made another video of his tier list, it goes

#18 - ROB
#19 - Palutena (because customs)
#20 - Pac-Man
#21 - DK (because customs)
#22 - Meta Knight
#23 - Kirby (because customs)
#24 - Greninja
#25 - Duck Hunt (!)
#26 - Bowser Jr (because Tweek apparently)
#27 - Megaman
#28 - Little Mac (!)
#29 - Lucario
#30 - Shulk
#31 - Bowser

I just love that all ZeRo has to say about Greninja is "He's one of the coolest characters in the game" and he basically gushes all over him. It's really clear that the only reason he didn't place Greninja in high tier is lack of representation outside of aMSa

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So ZeRo made another video of his tier list, it goes

#18 - ROB
#19 - Palutena (because customs)
#20 - Pac-Man
#21 - DK (because customs)
#22 - Meta Knight
#23 - Kirby (because customs)
#24 - Greninja
#25 - Duck Hunt (!)
#26 - Bowser Jr (because Tweek apparently)
#27 - Megaman
#28 - Little Mac (!)
#29 - Lucario
#30 - Shulk
#31 - Bowser

I just love that all ZeRo has to say about Greninja is "He's one of the coolest characters in the game" and he basically gushes all over him. It's really clear that the only reason he didn't place Greninja in high tier is lack of representation outside of aMSa

-> Ike not in MId Tier, and this is WITH customs on

Either Zero knows jacksquat about Ike, or the lack of publicity in our regions is really starting to show. I mean, Ike below BOWSER? Really?

Also, MegaMan's spot is... really confusingly low. And Little Mac confusingly high.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, MegaMan's spot is... really confusingly low. And Little Mac confusingly high.

Well, there were a couple times where people got all excited because he lost a game to a relative unknown using Little Mac. That might have something to do with it.

 

[PUK]

deserve this place currently. Not higher, and maybe a bit lower but being in the middle of the tier list seems correct.
but : as much as i love them, i don't think they are that viable.
Once again, as soon as you don't play the top/high tier (and even so) you need a secondary, or 2. So viability at this point is just a joke.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Is it just me or is the term 'neutral game' being used generically with statements along the lines of 'this character is good because; neutral game'.

I swear in all my years on this forum and the tier list threads... I NEVER saw people talk about 'the neutral game'. Suddenly with Smash 4 its like the only thing people care about that makes a good character. MK, Snake, Olimar and Diddy obviously had god-tier neutral games in Brawl but no one used that term. They were just called 'campy'.

Hmmmm?

http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-your-options-an-article-on-playing-smart.206225/

Brawl? Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Emblem Lord shaping metagame theory with mere WORDS!!!

My powers have grown in excess and I fear they may destroy this world.

Pray for me my brethren

 

[Gamegenie222]

Its a good read. I tell local players all the time to read it and get the message behind it.

 

[Nu~]

So ZeRo made another video of his tier list, it goes

#18 - ROB
#19 - Palutena (because customs)
#20 - Pac-Man
#21 - DK (because customs)
#22 - Meta Knight
#23 - Kirby (because customs)
#24 - Greninja
#25 - Duck Hunt (!)
#26 - Bowser Jr (because Tweek apparently)
#27 - Megaman
#28 - Little Mac (!)
#29 - Lucario
#30 - Shulk
#31 - Bowser

I just love that all ZeRo has to say about Greninja is "He's one of the coolest characters in the game" and he basically gushes all over him. It's really clear that the only reason he didn't place Greninja in high tier is lack of representation outside of aMSa

People still don't know how good Pac-Man's customs are.
It probably stems from the fact that none of his customs are truly straightforward. It's pretty fitting for how unorthodox his moveset and playstyle are.

 

[FullMoon]

People still don't know how good Pac-Man's customs are.
It probably stems from the fact that none of his customs are truly straightforward. It's pretty fitting for how unorthodox his moveset and playstyle are.

Which reminds me that I unlocked Freaky Fruit one of these days and when I went to look at what it does and then I saw what the Apple does and was like

That custom is hilariously bizarre.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Zero's opinion is... his opinion. I'd take it with a grain of salt to be honest (pun intended).
Seriously though, I think he's mostly right. Thing is, there is no such thing as a tier list that won't upset someone out there. So there's no need to get too caught up in the placement of X Y or Z.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

D3 hasn't popped up yet in these vids, has he? I wouldn't be surprised if Zero put him at dead last.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NachoOfCheese]

D3 hasn't popped up yet in these vids, has he? I wouldn't be surprised if Zero put him at dead last.

Smooth Criminal

Zero isn't well-versed when it comes to non-top tiers. He plays to win, so it wouldn't really matter to him if he's playing against a Zelda or Dedede, because it's all the same to him: not threatening. Oh,, unless he loses to a character in friendlies *cough*LittleMac*cough*
If he lost to a Dedede just before making this video he would likely be above R.O.B. tbh.

 

[mimgrim]

Speaking of characters a friend described Charizard to me as a fatty Marth. I can kinda see it bit idk about Charizard though.The fatties will give you hella patience though and once you get going you get to put on your party hat and go to town cause i love putting on my party hat as Bowser.

He's a lil bit of a fatty Marth, but not really. He does have tipper mechanic when it comes to his moves that use the tail (I believe Fair has a sweet-sour sport as well but I forget which way they are ordered). Lack of Brawl Dtilit (Smash 4 Dtilt isn't bad but it is no where near Brawl Dtilt goodness) and long landing lag on Bair (with no auto-cancel window off a short hop) and I think Nair might be smaller as well all lead him to not really playing a spacing ala Marth and is instead more about creating a wall and, in theory, Flare Blitz creating enough fear as to force the opponent to approch (Dragon Rush accomplishes a similar concept while also being better). I would say he is more of a fat Jigglypuff if I were to make a comparison to any character.

And I still think he is underrated as all hell. But eh.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Nah D3 isn't gonna be last its gonna be Lucina or Falco or Charizard

 

[bc1910]

Zero isn't well-versed when it comes to non-top tiers. He plays to win, so it wouldn't really matter to him if he's playing against a Zelda or Dedede, because it's all the same to him: not threatening. Oh,, unless he loses to a character in friendlies *cough*LittleMac*cough*
If he lost to a Dedede just before making this video he would likely be above R.O.B. tbh.

This.

Forget top, high, mid etc. ZeRo's list so far has been:

"Characters that win a lot/I lose to" Tier
"Characters that sometimes win + the Pits cause lol" Tier
"Characters I don't understand/have a few results" Tier

The "mid" tier is a complete mess. Mega Man is insanely low, Pac-Man is too low, why on earth is Kirby that high? Kirby's good but above Greninja, Mega Man and Duck Hunt? Really?

Also this means Peach is gonna be in his Low tier since she hasn't been covered yet, despite the fact he just called her underrated. So I really don't understand his thought process behind this list. Could be based on results, but the tiers don't reflect that well. Could be based on potential, but the tiers reflect that even less well. Could be based on some average of both, but there are still major anomalies.

I just think it's important to remember that this is one guy's opinion and that that guy, whilst undoubtedly the best Sm4sh player in terms of results, is not a master of the entire cast nor is he any less likely than anyone else to have bias about certain characters.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hard to convey rhetoric via text sometimes. I get that, guys. I don't think D3 is dead last either.

I don't understand our top players sometimes.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Gawain]

This.

Forget top, high, mid etc. ZeRo's list so far has been:

"Characters that win a lot/I lose to" Tier
"Characters that sometimes win + the Pits cause lol" Tier
"Characters who I don't understand and have a few results" Tier

The "mid" tier is a complete mess. Mega Man is insanely low, Pac-Man is too low, why on earth is Kirby that high? Kirby's good but above Greninja, Mega Man and Duck Hunt? Really?

Also this means Peach is gonna be in his Low tier since she hasn't been covered yet, despite the fact he just called her underrated. So I really don't understand his thought process behind this list. Could be based on results, but the tiers don't reflect that well. Could be based on potential, but the tiers reflect that even less well. Could be based on some average of both, but there are still major anomalies.

I just think it's important to remember that this is one guy's opinion and that that guy, whilst undoubtedly the best Sm4sh player in terms of results, is not a master of the entire cast nor is he any less likely than anyone else to have bias about certain characters.

Posts like this are why I wonder why you guys even care about tier lists. There is no such thing as a tier list in fighting games except for MAYBE the very best characters, and the more characters you have the worse this gets. The thing with this game is, once you get out of the top 10 or so characters, it becomes too muddy to just list them off in terms of who is better than who. A character like D3 might be better than one half of these lower tier characters but worse vs another, while one of the guys he's good against may be good against one of the guys he struggles to beat. Again, there is zero purpose to listing off everyone in numerical order when you have more than 12 or so characters. Characters like Sheik and Diddy etc are obviously better than most everyone. So sure, you can say they're the best. The further down you get though, it becomes absolutely pointless.

 

[Zelder]

No, there are definitely established tier lists for long running games. SF2, SFA, SF3, Melee, etc.

It's just harder to do with current games that both see patches/tend to not last as long before a new version comes through.

 

[Ffamran]

Fox hardly has finicky normals.

What do you mean? Fox is kind of straightforward with how his moves work. Jab for well, jabbing and jab canceling, Ftilt for spacing and as a "pivot Dash Attack", Dtilt for launching, Utilt for anti-air, comboing, and setting up, Dash Attack for a quick punish and setting up, Up Smash for killing and sometimes anti-air, Side Smash for spaced punished, Down Smash for roll punishes and as a finisher after jab cancel, Nair for coverage and hit confirming, Fair for comboing, Bair for killing and sort of approaching, Uair for killing and sort of juggling, and Dair for comboing and below coverage. All of Fox's moves have a defined purpose that works and flows well.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Gotta milk the low-tier debates for more views, I guess?

In my mind, I know Diddy is top-ish because he is/was an ass-in-a-tophat to fight, and RosaLuma is top-ish because she is also extremely tedious to fight. (I'd probably include Sonic here, but I've never fought a good sonic so idk. Word on the street is he's annoying to fight )

Sheik, honestly, I don't know. I'm under the impression she's top-tier, but only because other people say so. I've honestly never had trouble fighting Sheik -- the longer the fight drags on, the more disadvantaged she is. Or, possibly, I've never fought a Sheik on-point enough to avoid the fight dragging on longer than it needs to...

As far as I care, every other character in the game is a blur. I've only ever gotten confused at the prospect of someone being "last", especially when patches have been trying to prevent that.

 

[bc1910]

What do you mean? Fox is kind of straightforward with how his moves work. Jab for well, jabbing and jab canceling, Ftilt for spacing and as a "pivot Dash Attack", Dtilt for launching, Utilt for anti-air, comboing, and setting up, Dash Attack for a quick punish and setting up, Up Smash for killing and sometimes anti-air, Side Smash for spaced punished, Down Smash for roll punishes and as a finisher after jab cancel, Nair for coverage and hit confirming, Fair for comboing, Bair for killing and sort of approaching, Uair for killing and sort of juggling, and Dair for comboing and below coverage. All of Fox's moves have a defined purpose that works and flows well.

A character with finicky normals is a character like Greninja with most or all of their moves having precise hitboxes. Fox is not one of those characters.

 

[Ffamran]

A character with finicky normals is a character like Greninja with most or all of their moves having precise hitboxes. Fox is not one of those characters.

Yeah, I misread your post... Reading is hard.

 

[Big-Cat]

I got in contact with my friend, and I asked him to describe Zelda's playstyle or at least how he plays here. Here's the text message he gave me.

Sorry I was watching a speed run on a game I'm running.

Anyway well Zelda has slow movement speed but great range and traps on her attacks. I purposely bring people in to utilize the knockback she has so that I can knock back and zone out. I like to trick people a lot, which is why I teleport here and there. I purpossly teleport into a safe zone so that they will attack me and I counter, hence the bait.

I'm also a big fan of her phantom because it's a great distraction. It also creates a wall and makes it hard to see what my actions are when I'm against it since the Phantom hides me.

I also set up for kick and spike a lot on the ground because they are generally safe on short hop recovery, and people usually block kick despite its shield breaking potential, which in favor scares them to do so when they are offstage. They usually waste their air dodge if they see me run off to spike, which allows me to double.jump into a second spike and.go for the punish.

I'm also really good at reading opponents, which works in my favor as a player since I have years of experience playing various fighting games.

Honestly, my offstage in general in Smash is somewhat scary. I get told all the time that my offstage is crazy from randoms online, so when people challenge me offstage, they are usually up for a hard time.

My main goal in Smash isn't necessarily to KO my opponent, but to break shields. KOs come naturally, but I am fan of making my opponents block. Even in Street Fighter, I'm always aiming to trap opponents in block strings or stunning them. After all, an opponent who is stunned/dazed/dizzy can't hit back, and since I'm busy racking up damage with various projectiles that Zelda has, my opponent will have a harder time trying to get out of daze when I'm approaching them for a coup de grace.

I'll gladly run the clock if I have to. After all, I need one stock more than my opponent to win.

 

[Locke 06]

Shield breaking with Zelda would be greaT if she had any sort of pressure or a projectile that functions in neutral. SH lightning kicks are not safe on block.

Who's racking up damage with din's candle and the blind spoT phantom? Gorl pls.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Shield breaking with Zelda would be greaT if she had any sort of pressure or a projectile that functions in neutral. SH lightning kicks are not safe on block.

Who's racking up damage with din's candle and the blind spoT phantom? Gorl pls.

She does have a Phantom custom that breaks shields, but it still depends on them standing there and shielding instead of jumping or something.

 

[|RK|]

This.

Forget top, high, mid etc. ZeRo's list so far has been:

"Characters that win a lot/I lose to" Tier
"Characters that sometimes win + the Pits cause lol" Tier
"Characters I don't understand/have a few results" Tier

The "mid" tier is a complete mess. Mega Man is insanely low, Pac-Man is too low, why on earth is Kirby that high? Kirby's good but above Greninja, Mega Man and Duck Hunt? Really?

Also this means Peach is gonna be in his Low tier since she hasn't been covered yet, despite the fact he just called her underrated. So I really don't understand his thought process behind this list. Could be based on results, but the tiers don't reflect that well. Could be based on potential, but the tiers reflect that even less well. Could be based on some average of both, but there are still major anomalies.

I just think it's important to remember that this is one guy's opinion and that that guy, whilst undoubtedly the best Sm4sh player in terms of results, is not a master of the entire cast nor is he any less likely than anyone else to have bias about certain characters.

It's both opinion and results. He did say that he couldn't put characters in a certain place because of lack of results and the like in the underrated characters video.

Speaking of - Peach got shafted if ZeRo is doing this based on characters that beat him. Didn't he say he lost a match by getting infinites twice versus Peach in Japan?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

She has that float U-Air xN combo on Sheik, doesn't she? That's so cool.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Jigglypuff placed competently?!

But why the hell is Doc so low?

 

[Djent]

Reminder: be sure to tune in to Shockwave 33 tonight. Notable guests include ESAM and Trela.

 

[Dinoman96]

Zero dislikes customs, doesn't he? I'm surprised he took them into account when talking about characters like Kirby and Palutena.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Reminder: be sure to tune in to Shockwave 33 tonight. Notable guests include ESAM and Trela.

And ESAM has already done Thunder Wave chain into Heavy Skull Bash for the finisher. The chat, predictably, exploded.

That said, he whiffed the vast majority of his Heavy Skull Bash attempts.

And now a Little Mac just 2-0'd a Sheik. Wat.

 

[BJN39]

She does have a Phantom custom that breaks shields, but it still depends on them standing there and shielding instead of jumping or something.

I mean, you sort of do Phantom Breaker in yourself, lol. It's incredibly fraudulent at breaking shields. Most of the damage is centered in the second hit anyways, which you can jump or release your shield and take the hit--which is less damage than the standard Phantom anyways. I'm pretty sure it's even possible to spotdodge the second if you block the first hit. I haven't done true research of if it's possible to do on that custom, so don't quote me on that. I will be doing the research, though.

 

[Djent]

Heh, I figured there were TWave -> Footstool chains available to that character. Such a cancer.

I actually predict ESAM vs. Trela for Grands, even though they're on the same side of the bracket.

 

[Ikes]

-> Ike not in MId Tier, and this is WITH customs on

Either Zero knows jacksquat about Ike, or the lack of publicity in our regions is really starting to show. I mean, Ike below BOWSER? Really?

Also, MegaMan's spot is... really confusingly low. And Little Mac confusingly high.

little mac being low is criminal in my opinion. his strengths vastly make up for his weaknesses IMHO.

B- tier if you ask me, or C+ if he really has to be mid tier

as for Mega Man, about the same, B or so, the fact that metal blade true combos into utilt is pretty frightening and its such a potent kill setup. that's just to name one of his many strong traits. Jump Cancel Glide Toss chains anyone?

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm pretty sure it's even possible to spotdodge the second if you block the first hit. I haven't done true research of if it's possible to do on that custom, so don't quote me on that. I will be doing the research, though.

I think you can, but you end up with a slight frame disadvantage by doing so. Don't quote me on that.

 

[BJN39]

I think you can, but you end up with a slight frame disadvantage by doing so. Don't quote me on that.

Just tested, and you very much so can dodge hit 2 after blocking hit 1. There is a decent window to dodge VS any of the full charged Phantom types. I didn't specifically check for frame disadvantage, but if there is one it's definitely small. I bet you could even kill any chance of Zelda covering that distance in time because you can definitely roll out of it too lol.

 

[|RK|]

Lol, the infinite comes out

 

[Spinosaurus]

Well Pika has an infinite in customs

god damn ESAM

 

[Nysyr]

Lol, the infinite comes out

Well Pika has an infinite in customs

god damn ESAM

Sakurai pls

u can't let ESAM do dis


ESAM doin' his best to get customs banned at evo hue.

 

[David Viran]

It seems to me esam doesn't know about jumping coming out slower than airdodge after throws because he keeps saying jump airdodge out of dthrow.

 

[|RK|]

It seems to me esam doesn't know about jumping coming out slower than airdodge after throws because he keeps saying jump airdodge out of dthrow.

Nah, he said it's slower. But odds are if they'd catch the jump, they'd catch the airdodge.