Character Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

Nah, he said it's slower. But odds are if they'd catch the jump, they'd catch the airdodge.

He said like one frame later but it's more than that.

 

[Unknownkid]

Heh, I figured there were TWave -> Footstool chains available to that character. Such a cancer.

I actually predict ESAM vs. Trela for Grands, even though they're on the same side of the bracket.

Hmm... not sure about that. Swordfighter have trouble fighting Sheik unless Trela switch to Charizard.

 

[Rafitak]

deserve this place currently. Not higher, and maybe a bit lower but being in the middle of the tier list seems correct.
but : as much as i love them, i don't think they are that viable.
Once again, as soon as you don't play the top/high tier (and even so) you need a secondary, or 2. So viability at this point is just a joke.

You would classify those three as low tier?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So Trela just beat Aerolink's Palutena with 1111 Swordfighter. I confess I'm shocked.

Gale Strike seemed key (and the commentators noted this too) since it forces Palutena to stop and shield it, putting a damper on her usual speed shenanigans.

 

[Blobface]

Trela...

Ok, so do people consider Mii Sword better now, or is Smash 4's "low-tier" actually that good?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Trela...

Ok, so do people consider Mii Sword better now, or is Smash 4's "low-tier" actually that good?

I think it's a little of column A and a little of column B. I'm sure Swordfighter will get a bit more respect (he's already been on that road since Trela started making waves with him), but at the same time, if Swordfighter still ends up being bottom tier, that's a pretty damn good bottom tier to be in.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Trela...

Ok, so do people consider Mii Sword better now, or is Smash 4's "low-tier" actually that good?

I still think Mii sword is lower mid tier or upper low tier because we see characters that eventually outperform mii in many aspects like ZSS. Trela is just very good.

 

[Unknownkid]

Man that tech after Swordfighter's FF Fair-> Upsmash. I don't know if Dakpo was lucky or knew what to do. That was so close.

 

[Macedonian]

i know this isn't the most popular opinion in the this thread, but i really dislike customs. at shortwave heavy skull bash was killing earlier then a falcon knee while being easier to hit..

 

[Unknownkid]

i know this isn't the most popular opinion in the this thread, but i really dislike customs. at shortwave heavy skull bash was killing earlier then a falcon knee while being easier to hit..

You will be surprised actually.

 

[Gawain]

Well Pika has an infinite in customs

god damn ESAM

Lots of characters have infinites and zero to deaths with customs. Falcon's got them on basically everyone. Pikachu does, pretty sure ZSS does too, probably many many others. If its got stun properties there is a good chance for an infinite lol.

 

[Macedonian]

it would be a pleasant surprise @ Unknownkid i could of swore i saw way more support for customs in here last few weeks

 

[webbedspace]

i know this isn't the most popular opinion in the this thread, but i really dislike customs. at shortwave heavy skull bash was killing earlier then a falcon knee while being easier to hit..

s/o to those few people in the Twitch chat trying to explain that Smashville isn't a balanced stage

 

[Macedonian]

s/o to @AmazingAmpharos trying to explain that Smashville isn't a balanced stage while the chat exploded yet again

i dont understand how what i said has to do with this.

and i was under that a lot of smashvilles imbalances come from the mii brawlers crazy low grab setups.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's difficult to explain, but it's not "balanced by default" as a lot of people claim it is, given characters like Brawler, Sheik, Pikachu, Falcon, and few other that can abuse it exist.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well, ESAM imo definitely would've lost if it was default. Against Denti, almost every major gain and kill was via Jolt, or HSB. (Which I believe is the #1 most problematic custom)

Considering the several bugs/oversights surrounding it, I'm optimistic about it being patched though.

-Momentum reverse
-Smash Charge
-Pseudo-true combos into it (glad the ledge set-up doesn't work on DHD with Snag though)


Wish people would stop hyping up the infinite, HSB is 100 times worse and more potent/viable.

 

[Gawain]

It's difficult to explain, but it's not "balanced by default" as a lot of people claim it is, given characters like Brawler, Sheik, Pikachu, Falcon, and few other that can abuse it exist.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're implying? Is it that the default moveset is what gives characters like Sheik and Falcon better chances vs the rest of the roster? I'm inclined to disagree, I think that has more to do with their normals, for the most part. Sheik's at the top, customs on or not, and those other characters are more or less in their same spots. This implies that the issue is primarily about normals, not really specials. The only reason specials are helping is because they're allowing characters that had severe issues before to overcome them somewhat. Prime example is DK, who now has a safe and fast move that he can use in neutral that gives him better mobility to boot. But I wouldn't really say that it "balances" him really, he has to rely on the move as a crutch quite a lot. That's more plugging the holes on a sinking ship than balancing lol.

Sakurai has stated (I believe) that the game was "balanced" around the default moveset. So whether or not it actually IS balanced, it at least was attempted to be balanced for the defaults, for what it is worth.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're implying? Is it that the default moveset is what gives characters like Sheik and Falcon better chances vs the rest of the roster? I'm inclined to disagree, I think that has more to do with their normals, for the most part. Sheik's at the top, customs on or not, and those other characters are more or less in their same spots. This implies that the issue is primarily about normals, not really specials. The only reason specials are helping is because they're allowing characters that had severe issues before to overcome them somewhat. Prime example is DK, who now has a safe and fast move that he can use in neutral that gives him better mobility to boot. But I wouldn't really say that it "balances" him really, he has to rely on the move as a crutch quite a lot. That's more plugging the holes on a sinking ship than balancing lol.

Sakurai has stated (I believe) that the game was "balanced" around the default moveset. So whether or not it actually IS balanced, it at least was attempted to be balanced for the defaults, for what it is worth.

O.... k? But I was talking about Smashville.

 

[Gawain]

O.... k? But I was talking about Smashville.

lol ax that, I thought you were talking about custom moves haha. That's what I get for skipping a post below. I'll blame it on the colored text distracting me.

Uh to make amends though. I more or less agree with the statement. Though I'd say it's MORE balanced than a lot of other stages generally.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Well, ESAM imo definitely would've lost if it was default. Against Denti, almost every major gain and kill was via Jolt, or HSB. (Which I believe is the #1 most problematic custom)

Considering the several bugs/oversights surrounding it, I'm optimistic about it being patched though.

-Momentum reverse
-Smash Charge
-Pseudo-true combos into it (glad the ledge set-up doesn't work on DHD with Snag though)


Wish people would stop hyping up the infinite, HSB is 100 times worse and more potent/viable.

I don't really agree that ESAM would have definitely lost. By game 3 of GFs it was pretty clear that ESAM had figured a lot out, and from what I was seeing Denti was mostly doing a good job of accounting for the power of the customs and not dying early unnecessarily (he only had one particularly early death which was mostly his fault, took a huge stage position risk and paid for it with his life). HSB was relevant at some other points, but it was typically high percent kills (do remember Olimar is quite light) off solid set-ups and very good reads (stuff like falling in the air charging HSB against a baited airdodge is a not what I would call a "problem"). I don't actually understand at all how anyone can look at those two sets and say "customs are a problem"; WF was an awesome set all around, and GF had one ugly moment that was pretty much the fault of the person who died early and ended kinda anticlimatically for non-custom reasons (ESAM just really outplayed Denti by a lot across the board in game 3 of GFs). I'm pretty sure ESAM went default Thunder Jolt in game one of GF mostly because Denti did such a good job of mitigating Thunder Wave in WF; the customs really weren't the focus of why ESAM won that tournament.

For those who didn't watch the stream or who don't know what I mean, here's what actually happened in game 2 of GFs. Denti as Olimar had some decent pressure on ESAM's Pikachu and got very aggressive on Smashville's moving platform. The platform was all the way to the left, Denti was on the left side of it, and Olimar was at very low damage. We know what happens here. ESAM lands a small hit, chains aerials moving to the left, and then converts into a HSB kill at 30%. I look at this exactly like I look at being back thrown by Sonic to die at 30% on Castle Siege form 2. In order for that to happen, the victim has to choose to take a huge gamble on a very swingy stage position very close to the blast zone. Maybe Denti had good reasons, maybe he thought he had a read, whatever. We see Mii Brawler Helicopter Kick do the same things, I've seen Shaky from these positions chain Ness fairs into early kills (doesn't even need the B-button, let alone customs), Sheiks do the same stuff, and I'm pretty sure a ton of other characters with or without customs can get stupid early kills if you really do get caught near zero on the edge of SV's platform when it's at the furthest position from center stage. That kill really was more about a gameplay dynamic of the stage Smashville than about Heavy Skull Bash, but most people seem to think SV is some immaculate stage that has no unusual dynamics to consider... To be clear, I don't even think it's unfair or problematic, just something people need to understand and respect (instead of just thinking SV is "super fair" and not considering the significant unique advantages its unusual platform offers).

Also, am I the only one who was a bit curious why Denti didn't use Sticky Pikmin Toss? It seemed like ESAM got latched by pikmin a lot and was easily baited into going out of his way to deal with that; Sticky Pikmin Toss might have messed with him pretty badly especially since a sticky yellow would seem intuitively to be a very obnoxious element for Pikachu to deal with. Especially in the WF set which was a very close set, I wonder if that could have been the difference maker.

I suppose it is possible things would have been different if customs were off, but I dunno. Game 3 of GFs was decisive enough for ESAM and Denti was mitigating most of the power of the customs well enough that I kinda suspect what would have happened would have been Denti winning WFs (since it was so close any loss of edge to ESAM could have cost him), ESAM coming back in GFs by making the same adjustments he was making by game 3 of GFs in the set as it stood, and ESAM resetting the bracket and winning the tournament in the end. It's impossible to be sure and maybe without customs Denti could have won quickly enough to avoid ESAM having the time to get that read on him, but I don't think we can say for sure that the outcome of this tournament would have been different.

---

Mii Swordfighter I think showed a point I've maintained for a while; people sleep on power characters. In terms of exchanges AeroLink and Trela went about even, but Trela had a decisive advantage because every time he hit he did a lot more damage due to Mii Swordfighter's raw power. Hitting harder than your opponent is a really big deal, and Mii Swordfighter's uair does 16% among his other moves that all just do so much damage. He was also kinda quietly helped by the last patch; I'm pretty sure Mii Swordfighter is probably still low tier but isn't bottom 5 material anymore (and that power characters in general aren't as bad as a lot of people seem to believe).

 

[bc1910]

Sakurai hasn't really spoken about the balance of custom moves. People often cite a Sakurai quote along the lines of "customization can allow you to cheat a little bit with your friends, which is fun" (that is NOT the quote but it's the jist) and use it to argue against customs. However that quote has been taken out of context and most likely referred to equipment rather than custom moves. Sakurai has not explicitly said that customs aren't supposed to be fair. The fact that some customs have been balanced in patches such as Dragon Rush (and I'm 90% sure a Kong Cyclone fix is coming) would suggest that Nintendo do pay attention to custom move balance.

I say this because I think it's important to keep both sides of the customs argument balanced and truthful. I myself am sitting here with splinters in my ass, not knowing whether I prefer customs on or off. If I'm honest, I am leaning towards off, because I actually really like the balance of the vanilla game as a whole and I think there are a lot of "jank" customs which actually serve to shift already good characters like Pikachu, Rosalina and even Sheik further away from the cast and further up the tier list. I don't disagree that a lot of mid and low tier characters benefit from customs, but apart from DK I don't see how they benefit more than characters who are already amazing. So I am starting to think customs off is not only more fun, but better for balance.

I do not intend to take this thread back to customs on vs customs off so I won't say any more on the matter even if this post gets replies, I mostly just wanted to note that I think Nintendo do care about the balance of custom moves and justify myself on that.

-----------------------------------------------------

Mii Sword is looking very solid. I also think it's a little of one, a little of the other in the "Mii Sword is good/Low tiers are good" debate. It's been clear from the start that being low tier in Sm4sh is not as crippling as being low tier in any other Smash game except maybe 64 and I think Trela is showing that. If he keeps getting results it's only fair for Mii Sword to continue moving up the tier list.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Hmm........... I didn't know a tournament was on, cause I'll have to wait for sa video..........

Anyway, can anyone explain how people say Kirby is low or middle tier. He seems top or AT LEAST high tier to me......

 

[LimitCrown]

In that interview, it seemed that Sakurai was mainly talking about the custom moves when he was asked that question.

---In the future, do you plan on adjusting or balancing the game further through a patch?

Sakurai: We don't have any such plans, but at the very least we will be working on a few things connected to the online play experience, bit by bit.

If we were to do something like tweak characters' customized special moves, then there'd be no end to it. But with that said, if there are any glaring issues, we may address them.

---That's because with customized special moves or items, you can only play with them enabled online with players who are in your friends list, isn't that right?

Sakura: When playing with your personal friends, I think it's probably more interesting that you can almost cheat a little through customizing your character. *Laughs*

This portion of the interview was translated by Eventhubs.

 

[Dinoman96]

Wasn't one of Charizard's customs changed in one of the patches?

 

[LimitCrown]

Yes. Dragon Rush's damage output was reduced.

 

[Antonykun]

I don't really agree that ESAM would have definitely lost. By game 3 of GFs it was pretty clear that ESAM had figured a lot out, and from what I was seeing Denti was mostly doing a good job of accounting for the power of the customs and not dying early unnecessarily (he only had one particularly early death which was mostly his fault, took a huge stage position risk and paid for it with his life). HSB was relevant at some other points, but it was typically high percent kills (do remember Olimar is quite light) off solid set-ups and very good reads (stuff like falling in the air charging HSB against a baited airdodge is a not what I would call a "problem"). I don't actually understand at all how anyone can look at those two sets and say "customs are a problem"; WF was an awesome set all around, and GF had one ugly moment that was pretty much the fault of the person who died early and ended kinda anticlimatically for non-custom reasons (ESAM just really outplayed Denti by a lot across the board in game 3 of GFs). I'm pretty sure ESAM went default Thunder Jolt in game one of GF mostly because Denti did such a good job of mitigating Thunder Wave in WF; the customs really weren't the focus of why ESAM won that tournament.

For those who didn't watch the stream or who don't know what I mean, here's what actually happened in game 2 of GFs. Denti as Olimar had some decent pressure on ESAM's Pikachu and got very aggressive on Smashville's moving platform. The platform was all the way to the left, Denti was on the left side of it, and Olimar was at very low damage. We know what happens here. ESAM lands a small hit, chains aerials moving to the left, and then converts into a HSB kill at 30%. I look at this exactly like I look at being back thrown by Sonic to die at 30% on Castle Siege form 2. In order for that to happen, the victim has to choose to take a huge gamble on a very swingy stage position very close to the blast zone. Maybe Denti had good reasons, maybe he thought he had a read, whatever. We see Mii Brawler Helicopter Kick do the same things, I've seen Shaky from these positions chain Ness fairs into early kills (doesn't even need the B-button, let alone customs), Sheiks do the same stuff, and I'm pretty sure a ton of other characters with or without customs can get stupid early kills if you really do get caught near zero on the edge of SV's platform when it's at the furthest position from center stage. That kill really was more about a gameplay dynamic of the stage Smashville than about Heavy Skull Bash, but most people seem to think SV is some immaculate stage that has no unusual dynamics to consider... To be clear, I don't even think it's unfair or problematic, just something people need to understand and respect (instead of just thinking SV is "super fair" and not considering the significant unique advantages its unusual platform offers).

Also, am I the only one who was a bit curious why Denti didn't use Sticky Pikmin Toss? It seemed like ESAM got latched by pikmin a lot and was easily baited into going out of his way to deal with that; Sticky Pikmin Toss might have messed with him pretty badly especially since a sticky yellow would seem intuitively to be a very obnoxious element for Pikachu to deal with. Especially in the WF set which was a very close set, I wonder if that could have been the difference maker.

I suppose it is possible things would have been different if customs were off, but I dunno. Game 3 of GFs was decisive enough for ESAM and Denti was mitigating most of the power of the customs well enough that I kinda suspect what would have happened would have been Denti winning WFs (since it was so close any loss of edge to ESAM could have cost him), ESAM coming back in GFs by making the same adjustments he was making by game 3 of GFs in the set as it stood, and ESAM resetting the bracket and winning the tournament in the end. It's impossible to be sure and maybe without customs Denti could have won quickly enough to avoid ESAM having the time to get that read on him, but I don't think we can say for sure that the outcome of this tournament would have been different.

---

Mii Swordfighter I think showed a point I've maintained for a while; people sleep on power characters. In terms of exchanges AeroLink and Trela went about even, but Trela had a decisive advantage because every time he hit he did a lot more damage due to Mii Swordfighter's raw power. Hitting harder than your opponent is a really big deal, and Mii Swordfighter's uair does 16% among his other moves that all just do so much damage. He was also kinda quietly helped by the last patch; I'm pretty sure Mii Swordfighter is probably still low tier but isn't bottom 5 material anymore (and that power characters in general aren't as bad as a lot of people seem to believe).

i wouldn't call Apex swordfighter a power character as only 3 of his non smashes deal more than 10%, maybe "customs" Swordfighter what really happened is more that Trela came pretty close to abusing that up air for example he had a battle against a foc whose name escapes me right now where he did down tilt and then dash grabbed suddenly the 8% from d-tilt became 29% from a d-tilt combo

 

[GeneralLedge]

I still think Mii sword is lower mid tier or upper low tier because we see characters that eventually outperform mii in many aspects like ZSS. Trela is just very good.

At this rate Mii Sword could have a 60:40 with every character in the game and people will still dismiss it because other characters 'outperform' him.

I'm also getting rather tired of people closing their thoughts on Mii Sword with "Trela's just good". I mean when you put it that way, we should dismiss every other character who became a top-tier flagship because they were utilized well by a particular player.

 

[Shaya]

the interpretation to take from that interview is
"Custom specials won't change / be replaced with new ones"

Like, Donkey Kong's cyclone up-b... they're not going to make a banana smoothie blender custom special to replace it (can you imagine? the tripping horror)

But they're definitely willing to do some small time balance/number changes. Just apparently not as widespread as defaults (probably a bit to do with sample data and/or design intentions [only the former is guaranteed]).

At this rate Mii Sword could have a 60:40 with every character in the game and people will still dismiss it because other characters 'outperform' him.

I'm also getting rather tired of people closing their thoughts on Mii Sword with "Trela's just good". I mean when you put it that way, we should dismiss every other character who became a top-tier flagship because they were utilized well by a particular player.

1. "60:40s..." That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. That's exactly what outperforming means, having cleanly better match ups than another character across most of the cast.

2. Trela's just good is a justfiable explanation. Because unlike Swordfighter, you're seeing a multitude of players playing every "top tier flagship".

And that a tier list in a game like this (not too many abusive mechanics / polarizing match ups) is going to be closer to rating of "character difficulty" than in previous games. Even then, no amount of meandering is going to make people agree your character is better than what they can observe or evaluate themselves.

So, please, don't let "swordfighter" be a trigger for you. Go to tournaments and show us what Mii swordfighter can do at varying levels of play.

 

[Antonykun]

the interpretation to take from that interview is
"Custom specials won't change / be replaced with new ones"

Like, Donkey Kong's cyclone up-b... they're not going to make a banana smoothie blender custom special to replace it (can you imagine? the tripping horror)

But they're definitely willing to do some small time balance/number changes. Just apparently not as widespread as defaults (probably a bit to do with sample data and/or design intentions [only the former is guaranteed]).



1. "60:40s..." That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. That's exactly what outperforming means, having cleanly better match ups than another character across most of the cast.

2. Trela's just good is a justfiable explanation. Because unlike Swordfighter, you're seeing a multitude of players playing every "top tier flagship".

And that a tier list in a game like this (not too many abusive mechanics / polarizing match ups) is going to be closer to rating of "character difficulty" than in previous games. Even then, no matter of meandering is going to make people agree your character is better than what they can observe or evaluate themselves.

So, please, no need to be petty; don't let "swordfighter" be a trigger for you. Go to tournaments and show us what Mii swordfighter can do at varying levels of play.

I agree with him on this @ GeneralLedge Swordfighter has come so far from his original stance as borderline unplayable. If anything at this rate people will start putting Swordfighter in "Mid tier" aka im not 100% sure where to put him tier
just add more to the Swordfighter metagame and eventually heads will turn.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Heavy Skull Bash is really stupid, and that 100% of this stupidity comes solely from the smash charge.

If charge up moves did not have this weird and poorly designed feature (bug?), HSB out of combos would do 6%, never kill, and we'd never be talking about the move.

The notion that a move does more damage when you input the buttons more precisely (with nothing to do with spacing) is really antithetical to Smash's core design. (For those who don't know, all 6 of Luigi and Pikachu's charge-up side-specials work this way--not just HSB. I'm complaining about the overall engine bug here, not just HSB. Note that this behavior is not found on any other moves in the game, including Kirby and Ike side-specials, position-based side-specials like Zelda, Greninja, and Pac-Man, or any charging down- or up-special.)


I agree though, that things are exaggerated by no one understanding or respecting the immense risk of the Smashville platform.

 

[PUK]

The notion that a move does more damage when you input the buttons more precisely (with nothing to do with spacing) is really antithetical to Smash's core design. (For those who don't know, all charge-up side-Bs of this style work this way--not just HSB. I'm complaining about the overall engine bug, not just HSB.)

thoron works this way too more or less

 

[Thinkaman]

thoron works this way too more or less

Not really--holding B only makes Robin hold the beam out longer, potentially catching more opponents or hitting more times. (7 instead of 4.)

But this means Robin is stuck in the animation longer; extending Thoron is a choice, with a cost for doing so.

Thoron extending is more like extending a repeating jab--if the opponent is not trapped in your attack, extending only makes you more vulnerable.


Side-b smash charge has no downside. It is not a choice, but merely a secret execution test.

 

[GeneralLedge]

And that a tier list in a game like this (not too many abusive mechanics / polarizing match ups) is going to be closer to rating of "character difficulty" than in previous games.

I'm a-okay with this. I've merely experienced the list being pointed to as a source of scoffing.

I'll try to rethink my outlook.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Not really--holding B only makes Robin hold the beam out longer, potentially catching more opponents or hitting more times. (7 instead of 4.)

Interesting; I didn't know that. Does it cost more Thunder uses than normal when you do that?

 

[LimitCrown]

Being able to use smash input with attacks like Green Missile and Skull Bash in order to have those attacks partially charged isn't really a secret or a bug. One of the tips in the game explains that this can be done.

Edit: Was Shocking Skull Bash's damage output changed in the last major update? It might have changed. Never mind. It seems that I was mistaken.

 

[Thinkaman]

Interesting; I didn't know that. Does it cost more Thunder uses than normal when you do that?

Nope.

Thoron does 7 hits of 2.6% instead of 4. (18.2% instead of 10.4%)
Thoron+ does 9 hits of 3.5% instead of 6. (31.5% instead of 21.0%)
Speed Thoron is always a single hit of 10%, though you can still extend it. (To potentially catch more more opponents, such as spot-dodgers.)

Being able to use smash input with attacks like Green Missile and Skull Bash in order to have thosee attacks partially charged isn't really a secret or a bug. One of the tips in the game explains that this can be done.

Hm, it is mentioned, though only for Pikachu and only in Wii U.

But it's bizarre and objectively poor, not unlike tripping.

Hopefully Luigi's fireball tip and Wario's bike part tip won't be the only tips made obsolete.

 

[Spinosaurus]

The thing about the tip about Wario's bike parts is that the PAL version actually says you CAN'T pick them up. It's probably just a typo on NOA's part.

 

[Wintermelon43]

As a question, why is Kirby considering low or middle tier? He seems top tier or AT LEAST high tier to me.

 

[GeneralLedge]

On another note RE: Tiers; perhaps we should try to push the whole two-dimensional thing that was discussed a few dozen pages ago, via "viability vs ease of use"?

@SmashCapps ?

Just need two bullet-lists, and then throw them on an x/y axis.

 

[Ffamran]

On another note RE: Tiers; perhaps we should try to push the whole two-dimensional thing that was discussed a few dozen pages ago, via "viability vs ease of use"?

@SmashCapps ?

Just need two bullet-lists, and then throw them on an x/y axis.

Or flawed versus well-rounded like the KoFXIII tier sheet I linked a while back.