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Fair for Falco does less damage only because almost everything in this game does less damage. The important part is that it links and it's stronger. Also the ground hitbox does a lot of damage (and sometimes will link after the entire move doing extra damage). The main thing is that it's perfect for edgegaurding. With all that base knockback, it will kill very early off-stage. The start-up nerf is not a big deal if you use it for edgegaurding. Simply press A slightly earlier.
Dair is dumb. It's not even a strong spike still and yet it has way more start-up and land lag. Nair has a lot more landlag too (9 frames now to 15 frames). A lot of aerials in this game have slightly more landing lag and slightly worse autocancel. Some characters got it worse than others, Falco is on the worse side of things.
I've seen the potential from villager since day 1.
It's nuts how it takes a serious aggressive villager like Ranai to do well with him, meanwhile over in the ol US of A we need customs to lame it out and still not even get top 3.
Meanwhile though we are definitely NOT at Ranai's level (isn't his full tag Ganbaranai?) @Antonykun
and I have been pushing Villager as an aggressive trap character. He can throw out a lot of hitboxes that limit opponent's options, especially in the air.
Ranai is coming to Evo, right? I look forward to seeing his performance and if he uses customs. Extreme Balloon Trip is probably a shoe-in with how it helps make his recovery (generally) safer and how it enhances his onstage trapping ability. Timber Counter is more arguable. The default is actually a really versatile move. The watering can can negate projectiles and intercept recoveries, as well as push people into the tree growth. The axe is a frame 6 kill move that can be used in the air or on the ground and can be reversed. It also does good shield damage. The tree growth can kill and lingers, and the chopped tree is a huge hitbox that can heavily trap characters, especially at the ledge. Lloid and Pocket customs are mostly preference/matchup dependent.
Brawl Falco was a sucky character that had chaingrabs and buffed Lasers. Simply taking those 2 away would be enough to ruin him. Then they bomb him with nerf after nerf: Nerf Dash Attack. make his dair Luigi range with worsethanGanon speed. Make his standing grab WORSETHANGANON speed. Reduce Fsmash speed by 1 frame cuz lol. They could have just nerfed lasers to Melee, not butchered them. But oh, we're not done! Let's compeltely screw over bair, ruin Usmash's lag, Double fair startup and give it less dmg(Okay the move wasn't even good beofre, why?). amke nair worse. Then compensate this with 0.04 more run speed -_-
Oh wait?!?! We buffed him? Must nerf Greninja Landmaster!
Point out any of that, that was neccesary or even helpful towards fixing Falco, other than lasers and dair.
Yes. He's not a scumbag character though he's a honest repent for thy sins along with Marth and meta Knight. I perfectly fine with Smash 4 Falco outside of small things mostly his dair being kinda weak and lack of full hitbox on phamtasm. If they remove some recovery frames on his blaster it will be icing on cake outside of that i can manage as long as his up close tools are good.
Luco's post about Ness D-Smash made me wonder...What other on-stage moves are purported to beat Little Mac's recovery? I think that he has enough disjoint on his moves to avoid most anything, but I'd like to see. I'm managing Sonic F-Smash and Mac D-Smash as it is.
Ike's F-Smash and Eruption beat both of Mac's recovery options as the disjoint is large enough to beat out Jolt Haymaker and they both hit beneath the stage a pretty huge deal, hitting Mac out of his up-b since it doesn't auto snap the ledge. Ike's F-Smash is actually a really good edgeguard tool if timed well, it can hit that 2 frame vulnerability on snaps decently well, though not as well as Eruption due to the lingering hitboxes, though even at low-mid percents a F-Smash will almost always kill at the ledge. It's easiest on someone like Falcon because his recovery has zero threat to Ike so he can charge Eruption or F-Smash at will then punish Falcon just for being off stage.
Yes. He's not a scumbag character though he's a honest repent for thy sins along with Marth and meta Knight. I perfectly fine with Smash 4 Falco outside of small things mostly his dair being kinda weak and lack of full hitbox on phamtasm. If they remove some recovery frames on his blaster it will be icing on cake outside of that i can manage as long as his up close tools are good.
falco i think has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game honestly. fast faller + light wieght + predictable recovery - sex kick = CONSTANT death from ANY mistake.
Really? That's surprising. I obviously think wins neutral, but especially loves fighting characters who struggle to kill, since that means both anger and flatulence for him. So basically she fears him for many of the same reasons as pre-1.0.4 .
Where have I gone wrong?
EDIT: Game 2 of Rain vs. Abadango is a good example of the kind of thing needs to worry about. Rain actually pulls ahead after an early deficit, but gets farted on for his trouble. He then struggles to finish him off, eventually eating a footstool to enraged half-waft combo and getting 2-stocked.
However in Game 3 doing Abadango vs Rain, I noticed Rain started to use Needles a lot more and just being more campy in general then the first two games, and I found Abadango just couldn't really touch him really allowing for Rain to 2-stock him in Game 3 :[. Is it possible that just struggles with Campy ?
falco i think has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game honestly. fast faller + light wieght + predictable recovery - sex kick = CONSTANT death from ANY mistake.
EDIT: Game 2 of Rain vs. Abadango is a good example of the kind of thing needs to worry about. Rain actually pulls ahead after an early deficit, but gets farted on for his trouble. He then struggles to finish him off, eventually eating a footstool to enraged half-waft combo and getting 2-stocked.
However in Game 3 doing Abadango vs Rain, I noticed Rain started to use Needles a lot more and just being more campy in general then the first two games, and I found Abadango just couldn't really touch him really allowing for Rain to 2-stock him in Game 3 :[. Is it possible that just struggles with Campy ?
I think that campy Sheik in general is something a lot of characters would struggle to deal with, it's just that aggressive Sheik is more popular because reasons. (Aggression is fun and stuff.) IIRC ZSS players think they lose to campy Sheik but beat aggressive Sheik, so if that's true then it's not just Wario.
Back before "metagame" meant...whatever it means now, it referred to tactics executed outside the actual game world. For example, a TvC player allegedly pretended to talk on the phone while his opponent selected his characters, and then counterpicked his selection instead of doing a blind pick. Some examples of (old-)metagaming are underhanded and others are outright unfair, but the point was that they were human-level exploits.
But anyway, my point is this: farting on one's opponent could potentially be a rather large advancement of the metagame.
Why does nobody outside of fatality use their movement options extensively? From what I've seen, fatality is one player who uses dance trotting and PP a lot and you can see it in his matches.
Sorry if you consider this a tier list, but this is an organized categorical opinion on character strength. It's not ranked in any particular order. All based on watching streams all weekend and hearing qualified opinions. Obviously biased in favor of or against characters that the streamers have used well or poorly.
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Perceived Top
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McBlack (wtf, mix of characters' best moves (Mii characters))
DHD (Zero and M2K says he's good, great zoning?)
Bowser (Zero and M2K say he's good, has amazing kill potential)
ZSS (Zero and M2K say she's good) fast, combo heavy, kill combos)
Villager (Zero and M2K says he's good)infinite recovery, hard counter to all projectile characters)
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Also looking pretty good
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Robin (godlike pk fire, burns on whiff and shield, combos to strong smashes)
Sheik (amazing all around except everything seems to do half damage)
DDD (great hitboxes, edgeguarding, combos from throws)
Pacman (people say he's good. idk, zoning? hitboxes?)
Puff (Bair is an early kill move, rest is decent, great offstage edgeguarding)
-----------------------
Showing Promise
-----------------------
Falcon (actually combos, has kill moves)
Little Mac (really is that amazing on stage, with reliable kill power and safe moves on shield, but he dies easily)
Link (good all around)
Mario (good all around)
Doc (good all around)
Sonic (good all around)
--------------------------------------------------
People Have Said Good Things About
-------------------------------------------------
Metaknight (still pretty strong despite nerfs)
Game and Watch (combos from throws really well, but lacks kill power)
Yoshi (great neutral game spacing tools)
ROB (pretty good all around)
Rosalina (people think she has untapped potential. who knows)
Bowser JR (people like the character, but I think he's a bit overrated)
Diddy (saw some good japanese players doing work with him)
Shulk (Probably the best sword character)
----
Meh
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Pit (nobody likes him)
Dark Pit (nobody likes him)
Pikachu (nothing too special about him, but not bad I guess)
Marth (bad but not that bad)
Lucina (bad but not that bad)
Luigi (bad but not that bad)
Fox (bad but not that bad)
Falco (bad but not that bad)
Kirby (bad but not that bad)
Ganon (has great kill potential but probably still has trouble against projectiles)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not Looking Good (have seen these characters just get destroyed over and over)
----------------
Zelda (slow, awkward)
WFT (bad hitboxes, nothing good about her)
Samus
Palutena (slow and nothing special)
Charizard (just bad)
Megaman (flimsy zoning and not much else)
Ike (brawl copy-paste)
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I have no idea
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Peach
Toon Link
DK
Lucario
Greninja
Olimar
Ness
Wario
Dude, Falco sucked in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. He sucked in Melee because he was broken which meant "fun" when dealing with a marginally stronger character. For the not broken side, he had a horrible recovery. In Brawl, he became even more broken, but it was one move that went from being way too good to "how the hell did this get past the QA?". The pheasant abused Melee and Brawl so much that it's not even funny, especially in Brawl. Now he sucks because changes to make him not broken leaves him underwhelming.
The sucky part is that Falco feels like a messed up hybrid of Fox, Wolf, and the tone down issue. This pretty much destroys Falco's game plan and what he's supposed to be as a fighter. Take Zelda, she feels like and does fight like a defensive character. She might not be good at it, but you get that feeling of this is Zelda, this is what she does, and this is her design. Or look at Ganondorf who might as well be the definition of punish. He's the walking tank, the guy who wrecks you when you make a mistake, and the guy who's supposed to feel slow, but extremely powerful. Or Little Mac, Sheik, Fox, Marth, Link, Villager, Mega Man, Duck Hunt, etc. Falco doesn't really have that.
Blaster and an advancing Reflector say he's a zoner and anti-zoner, but without being able to counter-zone and force approaches well like Luigi, Fox, Toon Link, and Sheik, he's mostly reflecting stuff which gets baited as he can't hold his reflect like Fox, Mii Gunner, and the Pits (for a short time). Ground moves suggest he's a footsie, boxing character who when he's in, he can pressure you well, but he's slow meaning he's not going to get in well while Fox can rush in, tease approaches with his Blaster or Mario who can play with retreating Fireballs or Luigi who moves forward while throwing out spaced Fireballs with little end lag. His aerials and his jump say he's a peripheral killer. He's going to get you close to blast zone and boot you in (Uair), boot you in regardless (Bair and Dair), or gimp you (Nair and Fair). His jump lets him work in places most characters can't: really high up or really low to the blast zones. One defining trait, but how does he do that? Mobility and his slow grabs hinder him there along with pretty much being forced to approach practically everyone - even Ganondorf can just shrug off lasers and slowly make his way.
You end up having to play a really strong fundamentals game which if say, Sheik is already playing, then Falco can't really do much since he doesn't have gimmicks, he doesn't have great range - or absurd ones like Captain Falcon's Dash Attack -, and he doesn't have really safe options; he doesn't have (enough) strengths to counter his weaknesses or even make them negligible like how Sheik's killing issue doesn't really matter when she can rack up damage quickly and safely and never giving you room to breath or think. Falco has to play a game that in say, 2 years, everyone would have a strong grasp; footsies, feints, short hop fast falls, RAR moves, foxtrots, walking, pivots, perfect pivots, tech chasing, jab cancels, jab mixups. Really basic things which Falco only has. His only hit confirm that I'm aware of is Uair, but you have to hit with the sour-spot, the body hitbox, which risks putting Falco into an attack and not hitting with just his legs. It probably risks taking a chance against characters with really quick aerials or eating Rest, Super Jump Punch, Dolphin Slash, etc., since the hitstun might not be enough for those quicker moves. As a frame trap, Falco has to make sure he lands a Bair or Nair which also puts him at risk of whiffing and having the opponent drift back in to punish.
Falco ends up as the fundamentals character which is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none. The bare bones character who isn't precision-heavy like Marth, Lucina, and Meta Knight, rushdown like Captain Falcon and Fox, punisher like Ganondorf, Little Mac, and Bowser, projectile/zoner like Villager, Mega Man, defensive like Zelda and Olimar, pressure-heavy like Sheik and Peach, or even spacer like Ike and Shulk. Then you have unique characters like Rosalina, a puppeteer or trappers like Duck Hunt and Pac-Man. Falco literally plays on the fly and has to outsmart and outplay the opponent all the time which hey, doesn't Ganondorf do that too? Yeah, but Ganondorf specializes in punishing and outplaying. Falco has to play everything while not excelling at any of them outside of punishing which is mostly because of how strong his moves are. Fox punishes more easily since his speed allows him to get in position or get out and then punish easily, Zelda's punishes are deadly, and Sheik's punishes are safe and weak, but she can start comboing you from one mistake. Falco has to look Death in the eye and say, "Right here, he's dying; I'm not". Ganondorf just sticks his foot out and you're dead; Falco has to make the right decision at the right time and the right place.
Infamously, his Blaster, Reflector, and Dair pretty much defined him. Blaster could have worked without auto-canceling if it had less end lag since he really does not need to fire off that many lasers at one sitting. Hell, there's probably not a real need to have him be able to fire continuously like Fox since Fox's Blaster doesn't do hit stun. It'd be really stupid if Fox could only fire once per press and only do 1% before holstering. Fox needs that; Falco doesn't. I mean, look at how well Mario, Luigi, Rosalina, Wolf, and more do with a single shot projectile.
Reflector went from being the ultimate combo tool to a cool looking move in Brawl and to a good, disjointed spacing tool in Smash 4 with Reflector Void basically acting as a slower, ranged Melee Shine since it launches people upwards. Nothing major and even if Falco kept his old Shine, he wouldn't be able to do what he did in Melee - just look at Fox not being able to jump out of Reflector early unless he reflects something.
Dair is probably the one thing Falco had that nobody did. Nobody had a spike that fast, but it was way too powerful for its speed. Yes, Falco needs to set it up, but frame 5? Really? Now, it's basically another spike; another slow wind-up move that spikes people. It could have been the fastest spike in the game and knowing what happened in Melee and Brawl, be tweaked to be the weakest spike in the game. That alone would have been pretty neat since Falco would have kept his signature quick spike even if it was really weak. It would be the spike nobody has and nobody can say theirs is better since Falco's wouldn't function like theirs. The characters from the top of my head who have unique spikes in Smash 4 are Zelda, the only Dair spike to not have a sour-spot that does launches differently, Ganondorf, the only spike to spike from 0%, Kirby, the only Dair spike to be multi-hit, Pikachu's Thunder, DK's Hand Slap, and Villager, the spike that works with RNG. There's also Falco Phantasm, Wolf Flash, Header, and a bunch of other customs and moves I don't remember spike, but they're not the frame 5 spike, the quick spike. If it didn't spike until 150% or 200% and even Little Mac could survive that because it's a weak spike, then whatever. It'd be this move nobody has, but now Falco's lumped with everyone else and I'd say of the frame 16 Dair spikes, it's Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Ike, and Falco in that order. Captain Falcon has the air speed to rush in while people are still recovering from hitstun, Ganondorf's is just pure power, Ike's air speed helps and his Dair is a disjoint that kills pretty well if you don't get the spike hitbox - 134% at center stage on Mario -, and then there's Falco whose has a pretty telegraphed spike compared to Captain Falcon and Ganondorf who just stomp their feet or Ike who just swings his sword down while Falco winds up after running or drifting slowly. It's also pretty weak as a spike compared to the others.
They could have made his Dair similar to Sheik's Uair where the initial hitbox came out at 5 and does a regular hit like the late hit while somewhere later at say 14 or 16, the spike hitbox comes out, and then there's the late hitbox. None of this would link together like Sheik's, but it would add a safe and quick option for Falco to challenge below him. Plus, it could have been pretty cool animation-wise; Falco spins like Fox and like his old Dair for the first hit and then slams his other foot down for the spike.
Regardless, all this complaining does nothing. I see a higher chance of Falco getting nerfed than buffed even though people complain about how underwhelming he is. Scenario: "Gee, Wolf's coming back, so let's make Falco's Bair and Dair worse so Wolf's looks better." Hey, that's how Mewtwo usurped ROB's status as of having the strongest U-throw. *puts on conspiracy visor and hat*
Fair actually links now, which compensates for (and I expect is the reason for) the damage nerf. I don't know if it was the autolink angle in Brawl but that game had massive SDI meaning you could always get out of autolink stuff anyway so whatever. The startup buff is unfortunate and maybe unnecessary but it may also have to do with the attack actually linking now.
The lower damage isn't that bad since apparently, the knockback growth increased a lot. If it had the same 11%, it would probably kill and gimp even better. So, the damage nerf and I think - if the wiki is right -, the base knockback nerf is meant to balance with the increased knockback growth. For reference, Fair's last hit in the air has a knockback growth of 145 and a base knockback of 55 and does 4% while the landing hit has a knockback growth of 160 and base knockback of 30 and does 5%. (A clean) Bair's knockback growth is 130 and base knockback is 0 while doing 13%. Fair at high percents becomes powerful despite doing a "measly" 8% total while Bair's power is just pure knockback growth and the lack of a base knockback probably explains why at low percents, Falco can chain 2-3 Bairs which if all clean does 26% to 39%, but you have to have bad DI or be really stupid to let him chain 3 Bairs.
The startup make sense since the developers know how high Falco can jump and how far he can go off-stage. 12 frames borderlines a heavyweight's hit like Ike's Nair or a spike. The main difference is that Ike, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and even say, Wii Fit Trainer, don't have a lingering hitbox like Falco to just throw out like that or cannot go that far without SDing. If Ganondorf could go as deep as Falco, then Falco's edgeguarding prowess is pretty much moot... actually, everyone's edgeguard would be pathetic if Ganondorf could do that.
So, Fox and Falco can use their Fair to combo, but Fox can't go that deep and his Fair's more for comboing while Falco's is more for edgeguarding and catching to extend combos. Fox's starts at frame 7 and doesn't kill reliably or spike reliably. Falco's is frame 12, but in Brawl it was frame 6. If it kept Brawl's startup, then Falco's Fair would essentially outclass Fox's in every way much less making his Fair way too good even with the high landing lag. Which begs a question, if the developers knew this and even though Fair had much lower knockback growth in Brawl and if Fair functioned properly in Brawl, why let Falco have this? What is with giving Falco OP tools in Brawl? Still, it would have been nice if it was frame 10.
Is it just me or is the term 'neutral game' being used generically with statements along the lines of 'this character is good because; neutral game'.
I swear in all my years on this forum and the tier list threads... I NEVER saw people talk about 'the neutral game'. Suddenly with Smash 4 its like the only thing people care about that makes a good character. MK, Snake, Olimar and Diddy obviously had god-tier neutral games in Brawl but no one used that term. They were just called 'campy'.
Is it just me or is the term 'neutral game' being used generically with statements along the lines of 'this character is good because; neutral game'.
I swear in all my years on this forum and the tier list threads... I NEVER saw people talk about 'the neutral game'. Suddenly with Smash 4 its like the only thing people care about that makes a good character. MK, Snake, Olimar and Diddy obviously had god-tier neutral games in Brawl but no one used that term. They were just called 'campy'.
I believe most people instead talked about "safety" and "priority" back then. Effectively adds up to the same concepts, just my observation is we've gotten older and acquired better vocabulary over time.
Is it just me or is the term 'neutral game' being used generically with statements along the lines of 'this character is good because; neutral game'.
I swear in all my years on this forum and the tier list threads... I NEVER saw people talk about 'the neutral game'. Suddenly with Smash 4 its like the only thing people care about that makes a good character. MK, Snake, Olimar and Diddy obviously had god-tier neutral games in Brawl but no one used that term. They were just called 'campy'.
Is it just me or is the term 'neutral game' being used generically with statements along the lines of 'this character is good because; neutral game'.
I swear in all my years on this forum and the tier list threads... I NEVER saw people talk about 'the neutral game'. Suddenly with Smash 4 its like the only thing people care about that makes a good character. MK, Snake, Olimar and Diddy obviously had god-tier neutral games in Brawl but no one used that term. They were just called 'campy'.
Brawl made many people unhappy from a competitive standpoint, so those salty folks decided to warp a trait like "good neutral" into "campy." Luckily, smash 4 is a more competitive game imo (less trip, less mk). A lot of the high/top tier can find success in not being campy, but still having a strong neutral.
Brawl made many people unhappy from a competitive standpoint, so those salty folks decided to warp a trait like "good neutral" into "campy." Luckily, smash 4 is a more competitive game imo (less trip, less mk). A lot of the high/top tier can find success in not being campy, but still having a strong neutral.
The more i play and think about Zelda, the more i think we deeply misenderstood the way she has to be played. Everyone, from the beginning has assumed she's defensive because she's slow and has strong punishes. But her tools needs spacing, and she has nothing to force her spacing, unlike Marth (mobility) or rob (gyro/laser).
Maybe she's like bowser jr, a very aggro character. Maybe she's like falcon, an all footsie character. Idk, but maybe her design is not as flawed, and it's just us who thought dumb things.
@() Sakurai can you explain?
Dude, Falco sucked in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. He sucked in Melee because he was broken which meant "fun" when dealing with a marginally stronger character. For the not broken side, he had a horrible recovery. In Brawl, he became even more broken, but it was one move that went from being way too good to "how the hell did this get past the QA?". The pheasant abused Melee and Brawl so much that it's not even funny, especially in Brawl. Now he sucks because changes to make him not broken leaves him underwhelming.
The sucky part is that Falco feels like a messed up hybrid of Fox, Wolf, and the tone down issue. This pretty much destroys Falco's game plan and what he's supposed to be as a fighter. Take Zelda, she feels like and does fight like a defensive character. She might not be good at it, but you get that feeling of this is Zelda, this is what she does, and this is her design. Or look at Ganondorf who might as well be the definition of punish. He's the walking tank, the guy who wrecks you when you make a mistake, and the guy who's supposed to feel slow, but extremely powerful. Or Little Mac, Sheik, Fox, Marth, Link, Villager, Mega Man, Duck Hunt, etc. Falco doesn't really have that.
Blaster and an advancing Reflector say he's a zoner and anti-zoner, but without being able to counter-zone and force approaches well like Luigi, Fox, Toon Link, and Sheik, he's mostly reflecting stuff which gets baited as he can't hold his reflect like Fox, Mii Gunner, and the Pits (for a short time). Ground moves suggest he's a footsie, boxing character who when he's in, he can pressure you well, but he's slow meaning he's not going to get in well while Fox can rush in, tease approaches with his Blaster or Mario who can play with retreating Fireballs or Luigi who moves forward while throwing out spaced Fireballs with little end lag. His aerials and his jump say he's a peripheral killer. He's going to get you close to blast zone and boot you in (Uair), boot you in regardless (Bair and Dair), or gimp you (Nair and Fair). His jump lets him work in places most characters can't: really high up or really low to the blast zones. One defining trait, but how does he do that? Mobility and his slow grabs hinder him there along with pretty much being forced to approach practically everyone - even Ganondorf can just shrug off lasers and slowly make his way.
You end up having to play a really strong fundamentals game which if say, Sheik is already playing, then Falco can't really do much since he doesn't have gimmicks, he doesn't have great range - or absurd ones like Captain Falcon's Dash Attack -, and he doesn't have really safe options; he doesn't have (enough) strengths to counter his weaknesses or even make them negligible like how Sheik's killing issue doesn't really matter when she can rack up damage quickly and safely and never giving you room to breath or think. Falco has to play a game that in say, 2 years, everyone would have a strong grasp; footsies, feints, short hop fast falls, RAR moves, foxtrots, walking, pivots, perfect pivots, tech chasing, jab cancels, jab mixups. Really basic things which Falco only has. His only hit confirm that I'm aware of is Uair, but you have to hit with the sour-spot, the body hitbox, which risks putting Falco into an attack and not hitting with just his legs. It probably risks taking a chance against characters with really quick aerials or eating Rest, Super Jump Punch, Dolphin Slash, etc., since the hitstun might not be enough for those quicker moves. As a frame trap, Falco has to make sure he lands a Bair or Nair which also puts him at risk of whiffing and having the opponent drift back in to punish.
Falco ends up as the fundamentals character which is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none. The bare bones character who isn't precision-heavy like Marth, Lucina, and Meta Knight, rushdown like Captain Falcon and Fox, punisher like Ganondorf, Little Mac, and Bowser, projectile/zoner like Villager, Mega Man, defensive like Zelda and Olimar, pressure-heavy like Sheik and Peach, or even spacer like Ike and Shulk. Then you have unique characters like Rosalina, a puppeteer or trappers like Duck Hunt and Pac-Man. Falco literally plays on the fly and has to outsmart and outplay the opponent all the time which hey, doesn't Ganondorf do that too? Yeah, but Ganondorf specializes in punishing and outplaying. Falco has to play everything while not excelling at any of them outside of punishing which is mostly because of how strong his moves are. Fox punishes more easily since his speed allows him to get in position or get out and then punish easily, Zelda's punishes are deadly, and Sheik's punishes are safe and weak, but she can start comboing you from one mistake. Falco has to look Death in the eye and say, "Right here, he's dying; I'm not". Ganondorf just sticks his foot out and you're dead; Falco has to make the right decision at the right time and the right place.
Infamously, his Blaster, Reflector, and Dair pretty much defined him. Blaster could have worked without auto-canceling if it had less end lag since he really does not need to fire off that many lasers at one sitting. Hell, there's probably not a real need to have him be able to fire continuously like Fox since Fox's Blaster doesn't do hit stun. It'd be really stupid if Fox could only fire once per press and only do 1% before holstering. Fox needs that; Falco doesn't. I mean, look at how well Mario, Luigi, Rosalina, Wolf, and more do with a single shot projectile.
Reflector went from being the ultimate combo tool to a cool looking move in Brawl and to a good, disjointed spacing tool in Smash 4 with Reflector Void basically acting as a slower, ranged Melee Shine since it launches people upwards. Nothing major and even if Falco kept his old Shine, he wouldn't be able to do what he did in Melee - just look at Fox not being able to jump out of Reflector early unless he reflects something.
Dair is probably the one thing Falco had that nobody did. Nobody had a spike that fast, but it was way too powerful for its speed. Yes, Falco needs to set it up, but frame 5? Really? Now, it's basically another spike; another slow wind-up move that spikes people. It could have been the fastest spike in the game and knowing what happened in Melee and Brawl, be tweaked to be the weakest spike in the game. That alone would have been pretty neat since Falco would have kept his signature quick spike even if it was really weak. It would be the spike nobody has and nobody can say theirs is better since Falco's wouldn't function like theirs. The characters from the top of my head who have unique spikes in Smash 4 are Zelda, the only Dair spike to not have a sour-spot that does launches differently, Ganondorf, the only spike to spike from 0%, Kirby, the only Dair spike to be multi-hit, Pikachu's Thunder, DK's Hand Slap, and Villager, the spike that works with RNG. There's also Falco Phantasm, Wolf Flash, Header, and a bunch of other customs and moves I don't remember spike, but they're not the frame 5 spike, the quick spike. If it didn't spike until 150% or 200% and even Little Mac could survive that because it's a weak spike, then whatever. It'd be this move nobody has, but now Falco's lumped with everyone else and I'd say of the frame 16 Dair spikes, it's Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Ike, and Falco in that order. Captain Falcon has the air speed to rush in while people are still recovering from hitstun, Ganondorf's is just pure power, Ike's air speed helps and his Dair is a disjoint that kills pretty well if you don't get the spike hitbox - 134% at center stage on Mario -, and then there's Falco whose has a pretty telegraphed spike compared to Captain Falcon and Ganondorf who just stomp their feet or Ike who just swings his sword down while Falco winds up after running or drifting slowly. It's also pretty weak as a spike compared to the others.
They could have made his Dair similar to Sheik's Uair where the initial hitbox came out at 5 and does a regular hit like the late hit while somewhere later at say 14 or 16, the spike hitbox comes out, and then there's the late hitbox. None of this would link together like Sheik's, but it would add a safe and quick option for Falco to challenge below him. Plus, it could have been pretty cool animation-wise; Falco spins like Fox and like his old Dair for the first hit and then slams his other foot down for the spike.
Regardless, all this complaining does nothing. I see a higher chance of Falco getting nerfed than buffed even though people complain about how underwhelming he is. Scenario: "Gee, Wolf's coming back, so let's make Falco's Bair and Dair worse so Wolf's looks better." Hey, that's how Mewtwo usurped ROB's status as of having the strongest U-throw. *puts on conspiracy visor and hat*
The lower damage isn't that bad since apparently, the knockback growth increased a lot. If it had the same 11%, it would probably kill and gimp even better. So, the damage nerf and I think - if the wiki is right -, the base knockback nerf is meant to balance with the increased knockback growth. For reference, Fair's last hit in the air has a knockback growth of 145 and a base knockback of 55 and does 4% while the landing hit has a knockback growth of 160 and base knockback of 30 and does 5%. (A clean) Bair's knockback growth is 130 and base knockback is 0 while doing 13%. Fair at high percents becomes powerful despite doing a "measly" 8% total while Bair's power is just pure knockback growth and the lack of a base knockback probably explains why at low percents, Falco can chain 2-3 Bairs which if all clean does 26% to 39%, but you have to have bad DI or be really stupid to let him chain 3 Bairs.
The startup make sense since the developers know how high Falco can jump and how far he can go off-stage. 12 frames borderlines a heavyweight's hit like Ike's Nair or a spike. The main difference is that Ike, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and even say, Wii Fit Trainer, don't have a lingering hitbox like Falco to just throw out like that or cannot go that far without SDing. If Ganondorf could go as deep as Falco, then Falco's edgeguarding prowess is pretty much moot... actually, everyone's edgeguard would be pathetic if Ganondorf could do that.
So, Fox and Falco can use their Fair to combo, but Fox can't go that deep and his Fair's more for comboing while Falco's is more for edgeguarding and catching to extend combos. Fox's starts at frame 7 and doesn't kill reliably or spike reliably. Falco's is frame 12, but in Brawl it was frame 6. If it kept Brawl's startup, then Falco's Fair would essentially outclass Fox's in every way much less making his Fair way too good even with the high landing lag. Which begs a question, if the developers knew this and even though Fair had much lower knockback growth in Brawl and if Fair functioned properly in Brawl, why let Falco have this? What is with giving Falco OP tools in Brawl? Still, it would have been nice if it was frame 10.
I think Falco isn't designed to be a Zoner at all, at least not in Smash 4. The way that his weapons work, they seem to define him as purely anti-zoner, but not in the traditional sense where a character like Fox is a "zone breaker," who powers through projectiles through sheer speed. Basically, his ranged tools are limited in functionality, but they make retreating still enough of a pain to lure you into close range where Falco actually does very well. Basically, laser is functional enough to hit opponents from a distance, but not functional enough that you can just sit on laser as the foundation of your play. Reflector of course is there to send other projectiles away, but it's also a tool for attacking at mid-range, a projectile that beats other projectiles, but leaves Falco potentially vulnerable if the opponent gets past.
I compared Falco to Dedede before and I think that still stands, but I'm also reminded of Samus in certain ways in the sense that they're almost opposites. Basically, Samus is another character who is capable of fighting at all ranges, but doesn't particularly excel in every single one. Her CQC isn't spectacular, and it has a few well-known problems, but it's functional enough to make things unpleasant if you challenge her for too long in that, which then sets up her Charge Shot as her most reliable finisher. Falco is kind of the opposite, a character who CAN fight at a distance but really wants people to come closer, and his ranged tools seem built around that.
Is it just me or is the term 'neutral game' being used generically with statements along the lines of 'this character is good because; neutral game'.
I swear in all my years on this forum and the tier list threads... I NEVER saw people talk about 'the neutral game'. Suddenly with Smash 4 its like the only thing people care about that makes a good character. MK, Snake, Olimar and Diddy obviously had god-tier neutral games in Brawl but no one used that term. They were just called 'campy'.
I credit a lot of this to @Emblem Lord actually. During the beginning of this thread, very few people used the term. Once he made the post about the states of gameplay, we all started to switch the vocabulary, and I honestly think it spread from there; as we started using it in other threads and it caught on.
Probably was more than just that, but I honestly think he had a lot to do with it.
Maybe she's like bowser jr, a very aggro character. Maybe she's like falcon, an all footsie character. Idk, but maybe her design is not as flawed, and it's just us who thought dumb things.
I think she's a hybrid of aggro, defense, and footsie. Maybe the correct way to play her is to have MPD constantly mix-up how you fight?
Although I think the honest Sakurai-logic design decision is "she has two of the strongest attacks in the game, on par with Falcon's knee. Let's make her bad to compensate!"
EDIT: Come to think of it, she has zoning and spacing tools too with din's fire and nayru's love. Maybe she's just the literal 'jack of all trades, master of none' character?
A good example of the kind of thing needs to worry about. Rain actually pulls ahead after an early deficit, but gets farted on for his trouble. He then struggles to finish him off, eventually eating a footstool to enraged half-waft combo and getting 2-stocked.
Why does nobody outside of fatality use their movement options extensively? From what I've seen, fatality is one player who uses dance trotting and PP a lot and you can see it in his matches.
The more i play and think about Zelda, the more i think we deeply misenderstood the way she has to be played. Everyone, from the beginning has assumed she's defensive because she's slow and has strong punishes. But her tools needs spacing, and she has nothing to force her spacing, unlike Marth (mobility) or rob (gyro/laser).
Maybe she's like bowser jr, a very aggro character. Maybe she's like falcon, an all footsie character. Idk, but maybe her design is not as flawed, and it's just us who thought dumb things.
@() Sakurai can you explain?
She's a lot more than meets the eye. That's for sure. I can ask my friend how he describes her, but I see her like Bowser in that they both thrive on patient play.
On the use of fighting game terminology finally being used, I think it's a blend of a few factors. One is that people were persistent on preaching how unique Smash is. Then there was the common opinion that Smash isn't a fighting game. Finally, people trying to come up with names for every application to be immortalized in the community.
Speaking of characters a friend described Charizard to me as a fatty Marth. I can kinda see it bit idk about Charizard though.The fatties will give you hella patience though and once you get going you get to put on your party hat and go to town cause i love putting on my party hat as Bowser.
goes even with 
