Character Competitive Impressions

[Cassio]

But he prefers the air...

Falco is actually very slow on the ground in Melee. His speed came from a fast fall, fast jump, and great horizontal air speed. He essentially travels the speed of his lazer which is why shielding his lazers is so bad.

Also pretty much everyone is faster on the ground in smash 4

 

[TriTails]

Falco logic:

: "Personally, I prefer the air!".

*Calls in LANDmaster*

What.

And by the way @ Cassio , since you play Pika (right?), what do you think about Luigi vs Pika?

 

[FullMoon]

Falco logic:

: "Personally, I prefer the air!".

*Calls in LANDmaster*

What.

And by the way @ Cassio , since you play Pika (right?), what do you think about Luigi vs Pika?

I always thought when he said that he meant in a "Sure, I'll use that, but personally, I prefer the air." kind of way.

 

[TriTails]

I always thought when he said that he meant in a "Sure, I'll use that, but personally, I prefer the air." kind of way.

Then why didn't he call his Arwing that in one game he NEVER leave it? .

I mean, Falcon use his Blue Falcon for his entrance AND Final Smash. Why wouldn't Falco use one too?

 

[Cassio]

Pikachu luigi in the current meta is evenish. I could see it being argued luigi favor. Pikas dtilt slides luigi along the ground too far to follow up on properly which is a fairly big annoyance.

That being said atm people are sleeping on pikas overall punish game because it wasn't as simple to figure out as dthrow > broken move and no ones really labbed it like fox's, etc. Maybe zero might know? In any case that would make the MU harder for luigi. Perhaps it's not fair but I haven't really mass shared my research bc I'm worried pika might get undeserved nerfs, which would reduce my enjoyment of the game.

 

[Ffamran]

But he prefers the air...

Falco is actually very slow on the ground in Melee. His speed came from a fast fall, fast jump, and great horizontal speed. He essentially travels the speed of his lazer which is why shielding his lazers is so bad.

Also pretty much everyone is faster on the ground in smash 4

I know, but they made him slower in Brawl and basically tease his speed to be close to Melee. His and Fox's air speed went from 0.83 in Melee to 0.893 in Brawl and Smash 4; first time Fox and Falco don't share air speeds. His fall speed was insane in Melee: 3.1, which is the highest value anyone ever had; the closest we have as of now is Triple D's 1.95 in Brawl and Fox's 2.05 in Smash 4. In Brawl it was dropped to 1.708 and upped to 1.8, Wolf's fall speed, in Smash 4. Falco nosedived in Melee compared to the other games, but then again, fall speeds were usually higher in Melee.

Hell, even his moves are slower. Most of the cast either stayed the same in attack speed and mobility or gained subtle changes, but Falco straight up became slower. From a misunderstood post of fall speeds in Smash 4 being about 60% faster than in Brawl in the Zelda Social lead to this.

Minus Falco... His dash speed increased from 1.432 to 1.472, walk speed stayed the same at 1.28, air speed stayed the same 0.893 while Fox's was increased from 0.89 to 0.96, and fall speed 1.708 went up to 1.8 which is Wolf's fall speed. Well, that's okay, right? Wrong: double the startup on Dash Attack and Fair, from 4 to 8 and 6 to 12; Dair gaining 11 frames of startup from 5 to 16 - Wolf's Dair startup -, Dair also gained 14 frames of landing lag, Side Smash gained 1 frame of start up from 16 to 17, Reflector, I think, gained 1 frame of startup from 4 to 5, standing grab gained 2 frames of startup from 6 to 8 making his grab slower than Smash 4 Ganondorf and Melee Falco's grab by 1, Nair gained 6 frames of landing lag, Fair lost 1, and Blaster lost its auto-cancel ability and kept its crap end lag which might have increased from Brawl. If anything, Falco became slower by "60%" and I bet Mewtwo became faster since it has little end lag on its moves like Down Smash, but then again, I didn't play as the bobblehead Pokémon in Melee a lot.

Talking about the inner workings of Smash and looking at the changes Falco went through just makes me depressed.

 

[FullMoon]

Then why didn't he call his Arwing that in one game he NEVER leave it? .

I mean, Falcon use his Blue Falcon for his entrance AND Final Smash. Why wouldn't Falco use one too?

I dunno, since Fox and Falco jump out of their airwings mid-flight in their entrances maybe the airwings just keep going and crash into something offscreen because they're stupid so they have to use the Landmaster instead.

 

[Kofu]

Then why didn't he call his Arwing that in one game he NEVER leave it? .

I mean, Falcon use his Blue Falcon for his entrance AND Final Smash. Why wouldn't Falco use one too?

He is the Blue Falcon whenever he's fighting.

 

[Cassio]

@ Ffamran I've always wondered if those numbers are ok to cross reference between games? Does anyone have a solid answer to that?

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran I've always wondered if those numbers are ok to cross reference between games? Does anyone have a solid answer to that?

Hit frames and such are okay, stuff from Smash 64 are not since they're all double digits, but for mobility specs, possibly, but if they're based on time and using relative between games then it might be okay. I think, however, they're stored units which if Melee created a standard, then yes, it's okay to compare them.

 

[Luco]

@ TheReflexWonder So I think I just realised that Dsmash yoyo beats upB/sideB toward the ledge every time, and I'd be interested in finding out whether Mac, if diagonally above Ness but not onstage can AD through it and upB, or if he can use counter on the yoyo and end up on-stage?

I think it's hard for him because he doesn't snap to the ledge when using upB.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy vs Luigi isn't actually too bad now for Diddy. Or at least, I personally know how to deal with the matchup better than before. After the patch, it became noticable that Luigi had a better air game than Diddy. And due to his traction, Luigi reacts differently to bananas than most characters. However, Diddy isn't as easily out-camped like most other characters by Luigi due to his mobility. U Air also still kills Luigi at a respectable ~125% or so. I have much more trouble killing off Mario than Luigi because of this. Peanuts are a nice tool vs Luigi, but fireballs stop them completely so they are not always as reliable. Best is to try and hit Luigi in the air with peanuts so they hop over his fireballs. Otherwise Side B should take care of a spammy Weegee.

I don't think the matchup is really bad actually. At worst 55-45 in Luigi's favor. It's definitely not 60-40. Am personally leaning towards 50-50.

Also, Exploding Rocket Barrel is fun <3 think this custom is really underrated for Diddy. It gives him a solid attacking move and it charges faster than regular Up B.

 

[migul]

No. It's frame 7. I thought the community cleared that up.

For reference, Greward and some others think we lose the MU. So there's a school of thought that disagrees with the common "MM beats Luigi."

My B. I stand corrected

 

[TriTails]

Diddy vs Luigi isn't actually too bad now for Diddy. Or at least, I personally know how to deal with the matchup better than before. After the patch, it became noticable that Luigi had a better air game than Diddy. And due to his traction, Luigi reacts differently to bananas than most characters. However, Diddy isn't as easily out-camped like most other characters by Luigi due to his mobility. U Air also still kills Luigi at a respectable ~125% or so. I have much more trouble killing off Mario than Luigi because of this. Peanuts are a nice tool vs Luigi, but fireballs stop them completely so they are not always as reliable. Best is to try and hit Luigi in the air with peanuts so they hop over his fireballs. Otherwise Side B should take care of a spammy Weegee.

I don't think the matchup is really bad actually. At worst 55-45 in Luigi's favor. It's definitely not 60-40. Am personally leaning towards 50-50.

Also, Exploding Rocket Barrel is fun <3 think this custom is really underrated for Diddy. It gives him a solid attacking move and it charges faster than regular Up B.

I think I have to disagree a little. You ARE out-camped due to Fireballs. And if you try to Monkey Flip through, Luigi can duck, I repeat, DUCK (According to one Luigi main who implies this is true), and JC U-smash you (If that Luigi is a pro, he probably can just run after you and punish with a grab). If you try to peanut in the air, you seem to be exposing yourself too much for a grab/Cyclone/whatever when you land.

I too don't think the MU is bad (Not 3:7 bad. And even 4:6 a stretch). Maybe it's 55:45 like you said, maybe even 50:50, but some Luigi mains seem to agree this is 55:45 in Luigi's favor.

Custom is honestly underrated for half of characters. Most people know Mario, Palutena, and DK gains a lot from customs. But I DO think Luigi gains a lot too.

Quick Missile buffs his recovery that an uncharged version travels about as far as a fully charged Green Missile (Albeit it took forever to act out from, but unlike the regular Missile this one keeps going with respectable speed, so it's not as gimpable).

Floating Missile goes straight and slow, but it charges up quickly and has the least ending lag of all Missiles, and the ending stalls Luigi in the air. Though this is definitely gimpable.

Iceball has its perks (Freezing people instead of causing almost no hitstun, so it's not punishable on hit, and it lingers and stays for like forever).

Burial Header buffs Luigi's recovery and, while it removes one of his deadliest punish move, the burying helps Luigi to setups some nasty things (A free smash at mid percents, and a smash deals 14-15%, you can even charge them if time allows, allowing for guaranteed damage outside of down throw.

Cyclone customs aren't really worth trading over the original though.

But sadly, Luigi isn't on the train of the blasted 'Super Windbox Bros.'. I mean, come on!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ducking won't work if he's still experiencing cooldown of his fireballs. That is when you should act as Diddy. Maybe Giant Peanuts can help in this matchup to, but my friend who I play Smash with hasn't the move unlocked yet (sadly, also I own no Wii U) so am not sure. I do think however that a more charged Peanut will probably go through a fireball- but again, I didn't test it.

A Popgun-canceled Smash Side B approach from higher up could be an effective way to counter a spammy Luigi however. A well landed F Air would definitely catch Luigi off-guard like that. And again, Diddy can kill Luigi much better than others. It's a boon to all the nerfs Diddy got that he's still easily able to kill off his Top Tier contenders ; Rosalina, Pikachu, Sheik, Luigi, Fox.

Cyclone also doesn't beat Side B's kick I believe. And if Popgun canceled Side B's don't work, Diddy can always just throw a banana if things are getting too spammy. Yes, traction might mean no follow up, but it'll make Luigi stop at the very least. And that's already good enough.

The way I see it, is that both can handle each other very well. I think that Sheik is definitely harder for Diddy, and even she is a 55-45 matchup so Luigi really should be considered 50-50.

Speaking of Side B, Diddy has Backflip, which leaps a little, probably high enough to bounce over fire balls and give Luigi a nice kick in the face. Maybe I should experiment with that move more often... It's basically a sort of Monkey Wizard Dropkick.

And am also not quite buying that Luigi mains speak the truth about the matchup. Lots of character mains speak badly about Diddy post the nerfs, because it made a huge impact and they are simply not losing to Diddy as badly anymore. Lots of people also dropped the monkey. I even heard Ness mains saying that they think Ness-Diddy is 55-45, their favor. And as a Ness secondary, I disagree heavily. Cause to me, Diddy-Ness seems about 55-45, but 55 might even be too much, more like, 52.5-47.5 if that makes any sense.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi vs Luigi feels like we need to abuse his not so great neutral and traction of ICs by just camping him all day.
Prolly can look even if done right, otherwise if both characters get a hit confirm/grab (luigi) they dish out good damage. Except since Luigi has kill set ups and kills earlier than Yoshi, he's more dangerous if he gets anything, Yoshi kills Luigi earlier in a sense that rage and his weight make him die in the 80's maybe if we get a max rage DownB or Usmash and IF we ever get past 120+% without dying somehow.

Though that's most of the problem with Yoshi, all his kill moves are vertical (uair downb usmash) and telegraphed where pressing one button counters most of his moves since they have horrible end lag. High % or not. So yeah most likely be annoying and camp all day against him to lame it out for us.

 

[Luco]

And am also not quite buying that Luigi mains speak the truth about the matchup. Lots of character mains speak badly about Diddy post the nerfs, because it made a huge impact and they are simply not losing to Diddy as badly anymore. Lots of people also dropped the monkey. I even heard Ness mains saying that they think Ness-Diddy is 55-45, their favor. And as a Ness secondary, I disagree heavily. Cause to me, Diddy-Ness seems about 55-45, but 55 might even be too much, more like, 52.5-47.5 if that makes any sense.

o.O Where did you hear this? Most Ness mains tend to agree that the MU is even, and most dissenting opinions come from those who believe Diddy still ever-so-slightly beats Ness, so I'm surprised at this. =P

 

[Diddy Kong]

o.O Where did you hear this? Most Ness mains tend to agree that the MU is even, and most dissenting opinions come from those who believe Diddy still ever-so-slightly beats Ness, so I'm surprised at this. =P

If I recall correctly, it was a high level player Ness main. Forgot his / her name though. I will dig this post up for you, it was in the Ness boards.

 

[Luco]

Oh, do you mean Shaky? I mean, to be fair that's only one Ness main out of all of us

Hmm, like, it's possible that we win the MU, but I don't think so. Shaky's a freaking fantastic Ness main, but his opinions don't quite line up with the rest of the Ness boards at this stage (whether he's too meta or it's more about his skill as a player, I dunno, as much as I want to say the former) - you'll notice he also says Sonic is a -1 (or even?) MU and Luigi is between -1 and -2.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The underlining trick to Bowser Jr, I feel, is just using the mechakoopa almost exclusively as bait. The moment they pick it up, they've zoned themselves. It's amazing.

No comment on the other three.

I don't think it's that bad. If they grab the mechakoopa, you just bait the throw or stall it out given it explodes if they hold it too long. There's some matchups where there's virtually no point in using it because it's so easy for the opponent to take advantage of it (ex: ) or it's counterintuitive because Bowser Jr. has better stage control methods against them (ex: ) . From what I've seen with players like Tweek, the good Bowser Jrs don't heavily rely on it and, when they do use it, they use it in ways where it's difficult to counter like using it right at the ledge for a ledge guard or allowing it to quickly come back to them to grab it. You don't see a lot of circumstances where good Bowser Jrs just let it walk aimlessly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@ TheReflexWonder So I think I just realised that Dsmash yoyo beats upB/sideB toward the ledge every time, and I'd be interested in finding out whether Mac, if diagonally above Ness but not onstage can AD through it and upB, or if he can use counter on the yoyo and end up on-stage?

I think it's hard for him because he doesn't snap to the ledge when using upB.

I'm testing it now; both Up-B and Forward-B have a decent ledge snap size. The ledge snap frames on Forward-B happen as soon as Mac activates the punch. It's very precise, but you can recover with Forward-B low enough to avoid the D-Smash altogether, and a well-spaced Up-B seems to clank with the both hits of the D-Smash and give you the ledge, unless I'm missing some "put it under the ledge" stuff that Melee had.

As for your question, as soon as Counter activates, Mac's vertical movement is almost entirely halted, so if he's not below the ledge on activation, he'll move on-stage.

Though that's most of the problem with Yoshi, all his kill moves are vertical (uair downb usmash) and telegraphed where pressing one button counters most of his moves since they have horrible end lag. High % or not. So yeah most likely be annoying and camp all day against him to lame it out for us.

I imagine that Yoshi really screws with Luigi's recovery, though. Up-B coverage and generally large aerials with good power sound like they'd do wonders.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That's one thing I don't understand when people say characters who have "gimpable" recoveries should be easy to deal with offstage, but you put yourself at a decent risk going deep to kill them as well.

Ones I'm talking about are Diddy Ness Luigi etc. All threaten killing you or stage spiking if you miss, and with diddy Luigi you have to guess which way/move they'll throw out first to recover when going offstage to fair or Dair them as Yoshi.
Funny enough that's how I lost a match last week against diddy, the versatility of those barrels made me miss my fair on him and he just baired me for the kill.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Up-B's a reasonable hit confirm or a great harassing tool, though. Eggs are really stupid in this game.

 

[bc1910]

^Agreed. Eggs are really dumb in this game.

Stage spiking shouldn't occur offline unless you're totally, completely, 100% unprepared for being knocked into the stage, which you shouldn't be if you're going out to hit someone. Like I watched Deven3000 and John#s repeatedly try to stage spike each other in custom Kirby vs Lucario and it just didn't work. It became a damage racking exercise. You should never miss those techs.

I think you're right otherwise, though. It can be risky to edgeguard characters like Ness and Luigi since they can easily turn the situation around. Luigi has strong aerials in general, and Ness is just surprisingly hard to gimp unless you have a disjionted hitbox to hit him with while he's directing the thunder into himself. I don't think Diddy is hard to gimp though, I feel like you should be able to hit him out of the barrels almost every time. I don't think they're very versatile. You do have to be careful of the explosion, though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Up-B's a reasonable hit confirm or a great harassing tool, though. Eggs are really stupid in this game.

Do you mean off stage or on stage. Would seem kinda hard to jump off and aim just right with both the egg to go below you to hit diddy AND make sure the hop doesn't mess up your aim in one way or another.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do you mean off stage or on stage. Would seem kinda hard to jump off and aim just right with both the egg to go below you to hit diddy AND make sure the hop doesn't mess up your aim in one way or another.

In most cases, you're aiming to control his movement, rather than to outright hit him. Prevent him from being able to Forward-B for a ton of easy distance coverage.

As far as aiming the egg while considering the hop and movement, well, you gotta, because this is going to be imperative for high-level Yoshi play later down the line, I think. They're just too flexible and are capable of doing so much.

 

[wedl!!]

the reason i cant play is because i constantly sideb when trying to throw eggs

also because i like characters that dont make me want to shoot myself when i fight them

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Luco's post about Ness D-Smash made me wonder...What other on-stage moves are purported to beat Little Mac's recovery? I think that he has enough disjoint on his moves to avoid most anything, but I'd like to see. I'm managing Sonic F-Smash and Mac D-Smash as it is.

 

[Browny]

Eruption? Lol.

Seems like an auto-kill to me.

 

[bc1910]

Luco's post about Ness D-Smash made me wonder...What other on-stage moves are purported to beat Little Mac's recovery? I think that he has enough disjoint on his moves to avoid most anything, but I'd like to see. I'm managing Sonic F-Smash and Mac D-Smash as it is.

Greninja Dsmash can do it. I imagine every sword character's Dsmash could also do it. Any character who can outrange side B and up B hitboxes with a disjoint.

If Mac recovers below the ledge with side B (yes, side B, not up B) it gets harder due to how his hitbox gets positioned.

 

[Gunla]

Kind of personal experience, but Greninja's D-Smash might be one of those moves, Reflex, if the Mac is recovering horizontally (that is, if the Greninja isn't going for the HP and outright attempting to push Mac away).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Found some amazing uses for side b with Falco, but not sure if it's actually applicable. But, I'm sure I found a new secondary to go with my ROB.

Side b immediately after you jump is so gud.

 

[bc1910]

Found some amazing uses for side b with Falco, but not sure if it's actually applicable. But, I'm sure I found a new secondary to go with my ROB.

Side b immediately after you jump is so gud.

You'd like Brawl Falco.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If Mac recovers below the ledge with side B (yes, side B, not up B) it gets harder due to how his hitbox gets positioned.

Are you sure you don't mean "impossible" when you say "harder?"

 

[mimgrim]

Found some amazing uses for side b with Falco, but not sure if it's actually applicable. But, I'm sure I found a new secondary to go with my ROB.

Side b immediately after you jump is so gud.

He had that in Brawl. Was useful because burst mobility without any of the lag.

wasn't aware he still had it in Smash 4 though.

 

[Gamegenie222]

He had that in Brawl. Was useful because burst mobility without any of the lag.

wasn't aware he still had it in Smash 4 though.

He still does but slightly less landing lag as opposed to brawl and little to no landing lag. Lack of a full hitbox kinda makes weak sauce at times though.

 

[bc1910]

Are you sure you don't mean "impossible" when you say "harder?"

No, his fist and part of his arm (and sometimes shoulder/back) still goes above the ledge. There may be spacings where it becomes impossible I guess.

 

[Vipermoon]

He still does but slightly less landing lag as opposed to brawl and little to no landing lag. Lack of a full hitbox kinda makes weak sauce at times though.

Yeah I hate that. He needs to have hitboxes at the end. It already won't travel as far as Fox's and the weak spike isn't making up for both the distance and hitbox issue.

 

[kackamee]

Doesn't Ness' Yoyo destroy Mac's recovery?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It seems that Falco is designed as a more "balanced" luigi. He has better mobility (falling speed by far, walking, and not sure about run though) so he has better approach options (power shield through everything, or smart side b), but worse reward. Like a zangief vs T Hawk thing (even if they're not grapplers).