Character Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

The better that players get, the fewer mistakes will be made, though.

Of course, punishment will usually become larger in that time, too, but if it only takes one mistake to lose a life already, what have you got to lose?

I totally agree with this as well. The key thing is that this game is far from being Melee where one mistake costs you your stock at high level, but Little Mac is by far the closest character to whom this trend from Melee most applies. He's light with a terrible recovery and gets pretty much one chance to airdodge or counter his edgeguarder's attack; if he messes up, he's dead.

Any mistake a Mac player makes is already getting punished as hard as possible (with a death) a lot of the time. And yes, in time Mac's mistakes may get punished with death even more frequently but nobody is ever going to be able to kill him for making a mistake 100% of the time. That doesn't even happen in high level Melee which is a game much more geared toward hard punishment.

So whilst Macs are already getting punished about as hard as they ever could, they are leaving more openings than they could be leaving and have room to develop their punishes. I guess what I'm saying is that Mac's metagame has a lot more room for development than Mac counterplay, which is already devastating (since he often dies for making a mistake) but doesn't have much space for improvement.

I don't think Mac is a particularly complicated character, just one with normals good enough to be absolutely terrifying with a little work.

@ FullMoon I agree with everything you said about and just wanted to add that also, his back roll isn't very good (33 frames total in a game where rolls average about 29 frames total) which can make his defensive game even more unorthdox considering his bad OoS options. He's better off short hopping to avoid a lot of attacks I find, since his short hop is so high, and that can be weird for players to get used to.

 

[FullMoon]

@ FullMoon I agree with everything you said about and just wanted to add that also, his back roll isn't very good (33 frames total in a game where rolls average about 29 frames total) which can make his defensive game even more unorthdox considering his bad OoS options. He's better off short hopping to avoid a lot of attacks I find, since his short hop is so high, and that can be weird for players to get used to.

Oh yeah that reminds me, Greninja is the only character that has different frame data for his two rolls.

I mean wtf why.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You make a good point reflex about I mistake getting closer to death as the game develops

But then can't it be argued ability to survive one mistake becomes even more important? If that's the case the mario bros and yoshi with the awesome combo breakers and better recovery would outshine Mac, as well as a lot of others. I mean this is not brawl, there are in general more options to save ourselves this game from one mistake taking us out. As well in this game almost everyone bar Mac can recover from almost everywhere

People said that about Brawl, too; the vastly improved recoveries after Melee, plus the new airdodge mechanics (which allowed airdodges to the ground with no extra landing lag, remember?) made it seem like everyone got back for free, and in many cases they do, but when the meta developed, it didn't matter, because Ice Climbers chaingrabbed you on-stage, not offstage, and it didn't matter how good you were at breaking combos if the combo was unbreakable, period.

We already have the ledge snap vulnerability; if people find ways to reliably shut down ledge snaps and people getting off the ledge (which isn't that weird a prospect), the buffed recoveries in Smash 4 may not mean as much.

I totally agree with this as well. The key thing is that this game is far from being Melee where one mistake costs you your stock at high level, but Little Mac is by far the closest character to whom this trend from Melee most applies. He's light with a terrible recovery and gets pretty much one chance to airdodge or counter his edgeguarder's attack; if he messes up, he's dead.

Any mistake a Mac player makes is already getting punished as hard as possible (with a death) a lot of the time. And yes, in time Mac's mistakes may get punished with death even more frequently but nobody is ever going to be able to kill him for making a mistake 100% of the time. That doesn't even happen in high level Melee which is a game much more geared toward hard punishment.

So whilst Macs are already getting punished about as hard as they ever could, they are leaving more openings than they could be leaving and have room to develop their punishes. I guess what I'm saying is that Mac's metagame has a lot more room for development than Mac counterplay, which is already devastating (since he often dies for making a mistake) but doesn't have much space for improvement.

I don't think Mac is a particularly complicated character, just one with normals good enough to be absolutely terrifying with a little work.

I think it's quite possible that we start seeing people ToD Mac 100% of the time as time goes on; DI and SDI were both nerfed considerably in Smash 4, so a big part of what made the combo game in past Smash titles so variable is significantly limited. That said, again, copious amounts of armor and fast invincibility will likely do him big favors as time goes on, too.

 

[Locke 06]

Why is Luigi barely top 10? Because he has 3:7 Matchups. Even Pikachu's MU with Weegee is 4:6 at worst. The reason Megaman is seen as horrendous for Luigi is because of his ability to keep Luigi out. His approach is pretty bad, and with one of his strongest tools in approach being invalidated by MM, fireball, it severely weakens Luigi's ability to get in and punish. When Luigi does get in, he's already soaked up so much damage that something like B-Air can kill him. It doesn't help that MM's N-Air is frame 2 or something ridiculous. It basically goes like that for Pacman and Villager.

No. It's frame 7. I thought the community cleared that up.

For reference, Greward and some others think we lose the MU. So there's a school of thought that disagrees with the common "MM beats Luigi."

 

[Zelder]

Luigi's mobility and recovery (seriously, just jump out and get hit by the rocket, you'll more than likely fly back towards the stage and Luigi will fall to his death) make it hard for me to see him as top 10. Top 15 easy though.

 

[Ffamran]

Oh yeah that reminds me, Greninja is the only character that has different frame data for his two rolls.

I mean wtf why.

The same reason why his dash grab is the quickest compared to his standing and pivot grab and the same reason why Bowser Jr.'s dash grab is slightly slower than his standing and pivot grab - he basically has Brawl's format of grab speed.

 

[Macedonian]

Oh shoot I'm sorry I double posted

 

[Macedonian]

If you can show me how you would gimp boss's luigi recovering supper low then Jump and upB ad the same time I will start to believe luigi is more gimp able. Luigi is not as easy to gimp as implied on here I think

 

[bc1910]

Luigi's mobility and recovery (seriously, just jump out and get hit by the rocket, you'll more than likely fly back towards the stage and Luigi will fall to his death) make it hard for me to see him as top 10. Top 15 easy though.

Luigi's recovery is more threatening when he goes low and then does double jump cyclone into Up B, because that's a lot harder to challenge. The very best Luigis can do rising cyclone before double jumping, too. However I don't think people punish cyclone's ending lag enough, I know it's an annoying move with a massive hitbox but there are plenty of frames to hit Luigi with a fast aerial after the last hit. Once you've swatted him away from using cyclone, THEN he's forced to use Green Missile, and as you said you can just jump in front of it or jump out and hit him during the startup.

Punishing cyclone is the key thing people need to focus on with Luigi's recovery.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The Good Doctor isn't a bad character, it's just hard to justify using him when Mario outclasses him in pretty much every relevant way. Which is karmic justice for Melee, where Dr. Mario was just...a vastly superior Mario (balance lol).

This is false.

Mario was clearly better than Doc in Melee if we don't excessively weigh Doc's slightly better matchups against space animals. Aside from those, he does clearly better against Sheik, Marth, Peach, ICs, Luigi and unlike Doc actually creates several unwinnable matchups against lower tiered characters because his chaingrabs are noticeably superior (less kb growth on D-throw means Mario D-throw CGs you into F-smash/U-smash death combos in some matchups, Pikachu being a pretty obvious one, while Doc can't do this at all and misses several important KO confirm opportunities due to his inferior F-smash).

Also I would honestly argue Doc in this game is better against Diddy and Ness, given he actually has a short hop neutral game against them, and Mario mostly doesn't.

 

[mimgrim]

It is really saddening that the reason people try to justify Mac as bad, mediocre, or as a bad solo main is because of his recovery (I have doubts his MuU spread is as polarized as claimed).

Yes it sucks. It sucks horribly and is complete garbage.

But you know what? It isn't actually a big deal. Why?

Becwuse he has the best neutral game in the game, yes I even think it is better then Sheik's (or at least on par), on top of a terrifying punish game. You have to actually get him off the stage first and against a competent Mac that is easier said the done. And as the meta develops I can only see him going up and I could see him as a good solo main.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, you don't even have to get him as what people would traditionally call "offstage." You just have to get his feet off the ground, since he can hardly defend himself properly in the air.

 

[wedl!!]

as long as is relevant will never work as a solo main

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Mac has bigger problems than Sheik. I don't think that matchup is all that bad.

 

[mimgrim]

Well, you don't even have to get him as what people would traditionally call "offstage." You just have to get his feet off the ground, since he can hardly defend himself properly in the air.

I also think Mac isn't as defenseless in the air as is implied a lot of the time but people aren't ready for that yet.

 

[Ffamran]

I also think Mac isn't as defenseless in the air as is implied a lot of the time but people aren't ready for that yet.

Is it because of how fast his Nair is, Rising Uppercut's... is it invincible or something?, and Jolt Haymaker's I-frames in the beginning or something? His Fair and Dair are decent moves and I bet Little Mac could just footstool people to stop them from juggling him or something. Oh, and there's the usual Slip Counter read.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I also think Mac isn't as defenseless in the air as is implied a lot of the time but people aren't ready for that yet.

D-Air (well, until high percents) and N-Air are frame negative on hit. Up-B is neat but a whiff often guarantees that you lose a stock. Down-B is not useless but is also avoidable on activation (with the exception of Compact Counter, which combos into Up-B and is actively good here) and is almost as punishable as a whiffed Up-B in many cases. Forward-B doesn't have invincibility when used in the air. Neutral-B's just getting you hit more than normal. Mac also has poor horizontal aerial mobility and no good B-Reverse options. Footstools mostly launch you upward to have to deal with the same situation again.

Other than the general goodness of the airdodge in Smash 4, I'm not really sure what else you could call that but "defenseless."

 

[Ffamran]

Mac also has poor horizontal aerial mobility and no good B-Reverse options.

Not sure about air speed acceleration/deceleration, but Little Mac's air speed value is 1 and ranked 26-28, tied with Rosalina and Robin. He's also a fast faller, value of 1.8, ranked 5-7, tied with Mega Man and... Falco... Uh, wut? His weight is even tied with Falco; value of 82 and ranked at 39-40. His ground speed is good - he took over Fox's dash speed rank of 3 and he's just below Sonic's walking speed (and faster than Falco...) -, his air speed is pretty much average, his fall speed is fast which helps with his weight. Fast, strong ground options pretty much "counters" his lack of an air game which ironically would have been good with his air speed - thanks, developers, for giving him a decent air speed and leaving Falco in the dust... WHY IS HIS WALK SPEED AND AIR SPEED FASTER THAN FALCO'S?! ;_;

Source: Aerodrome's frame data compendium: http://kuroganehammer.com/.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Mac accelerates REALLY slowly in the air though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Not sure about air speed acceleration/deceleration, but Little Mac's air speed value is 1 and ranked 26-28, tied with Rosalina and Robin. He's also a fast faller, value of 1.8, ranked 5-7, tied with Mega Man and... Falco... Uh, wut? His weight is even tied with Falco; value of 82 and ranked at 39-40. His ground speed is good - he took over Fox's dash speed rank of 3 and he's just below Sonic's walking speed (and faster than Falco...) -, his air speed is pretty much average, his fall speed is fast which helps with his weight. Fast, strong ground options pretty much "counters" his lack of an air game which ironically would have been good with his air speed - thanks, developers, for giving him a decent air speed and leaving Falco in the dust... WHY IS HIS WALK SPEED AND AIR SPEED FASTER THAN FALCO'S?! ;_;

Source: Aerodrome's frame data compendium: http://kuroganehammer.com/.

He has nothing to swing at people with when coming down, making him easy pickings in that scenario. All of his aerials incur landing lag on Frame 1, and his drift accelration and deceleration (the ability to "weave") is terrible. This issue is compounded with his lack of a useful special move to B-Reverse.

EDIT: Spinosaurus got it before I did.

 

[Lavani]

As long as we're talking Mac, what's vs like? Saw this MU for the first time on Team Spooky's stream yesterday and noticed among other things that Mac can't counter Olimar's smashes at most distances (or at any point with pikmin stuck to him) because the counter will hit the pikmin and the hitlag will give Olimar frame advantage. Didn't really take anything else noteworthy away from the matches aside from Mac not really appreciating Olimar's keepaway, the matches were pretty close regardless to my recollection.

 

[bc1910]

Mac could move like Jigglypuff in the air and still have less ability to defend himself than a wet paper bag.

 

[Ffamran]

Mac accelerates REALLY slowly in the air though.

Well, once he reaches top speed, it's all good.

As long as we're talking Mac, what's vs like? Saw this MU for the first time on Team Spooky's stream yesterday and noticed among other things that Mac can't counter Olimar's smashes at most distances (or at any point with pikmin stuck to him) because the counter will hit the pikmin and the hitlag will give Olimar frame advantage. Didn't really take anything else noteworthy away from the matches aside from Mac not really appreciating Olimar's keepaway, the matches were pretty close regardless to my recollection.

This also happened at Dismantle where Greenbeast's Olimar controlled the pace against a Little Mac. Funny how a smaller fighter makes Little Mac have trouble. Then again, Olimar being a small target with range would cause trouble to characters who can't get in as quickly and safely like Sheik or who don't have projectiles to force Olimar to approach. It also doesn't help that there aren't a lot of Olimar players, so there's MU unfamiliarity too.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Mac could move like Jigglypuff in the air and still have less ability to defend himself than a wet paper bag.

I know this isn't the point you were trying to make, but I disagree with you. Baits into Forward-B would be a lot more viable, N-Air would probably autocancel after tapping standing opponents, and getting into position to land Up-B would be much easier.

 

[bc1910]

I know this isn't the point you were trying to make, but I disagree with you. Baits into Forward-B would be a lot more viable, N-Air would probably autocancel after tapping standing opponents, and getting into position to land Up-B would be much easier.

I was being colourful, but I stand by my point. Baits into Forward-B maybe, but the air version really isn't that threatening, it's even punishable on hit until higher percents. Nair wouldn't have different autocancel values if he had the same fall speed, if anything Nair chains might be worse because Mac would be harder to control in the air. Up B would perhaps be easier to land but considering it's still his only good option IMO it wouldn't be much harder to avoid since it's all he can do. Others would be more wary of it coming and it'd still cost him a stock for whiffing. The character would still have massive landing issues as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was being colourful, but I stand by my point. Baits into Forward-B maybe, but the air version really isn't that threatening, it's even punishable on hit until higher percents. Nair wouldn't have different autocancel values if he had the same fall speed, if anything Nair chains might be worse because Mac would be harder to control in the air. Up B would perhaps be easier to land but considering it's still his only good option IMO it wouldn't be much harder to avoid since it's all he can do. Others would be more wary of it coming and it'd still cost him a stock for whiffing. The character would still have massive landing issues as well.

The air version of Forward-B is just as powerful as the grounded version.

There is no such thing as a "N-Air chain" because N-Air is -5 on hit regardless of whether the opponent is at 0% or 999%. If Mac fell more slowly, hitting characters' heads would give him more time before landing, reaching the autocancel window.

Frame 1 invincibility is still a useful tool no matter how you slice it.

 

[bc1910]

The air version of Forward-B is just as powerful as the grounded version.

There is no such thing as a "N-Air chain" because N-Air is -5 on hit regardless of whether the opponent is at 0% or 999%. If Mac fell more slowly, hitting characters' heads would give him more time before landing, reaching the autocancel window.

Frame 1 invincibility is still a useful tool no matter how you slice it.

And just as punishable and non-threatening at low percents. It also has far less range.

Mac falls at the same speed in my analogy. Nair is more -ve on hit than I thought, so that move just became even less threatening in my book.

 

[Ikes]

I also think Mac isn't as defenseless in the air as is implied a lot of the time but people aren't ready for that yet.

fastest nair in the game, right?

isnt that a good defensive aerial option if not air dodging?

 

[mimgrim]

Nah Nair is bad. Counter is okayish in the air. As is Side Special. Neutral Special is lol and Up Special is a risk to use in the air but really pays off if it works. Dair is meh. Fair abd Bair are criminally underated as I'm pretty sure they can hit pretty lowish and send at a good angle, just need to be smart. Plus general air dodge. I'm not saying ue wants to be in the air or anything but I think he is way underrated when he does get put into that position and that he has ways to work around it than is generaaky stated. Basicially I just think that his weakness, while still there, are blown out of poportion as to how much they are of a detriment to him.

 

[Blobface]

I want to talk about Lateral Kick and Shooting Star Kick ZSS!

On one hand, 1X32 ZSS suffers the same question as most of Sheik's customs: "Wow, these moves are incredible, but why on God's green Earth would I ever give up Needles, Vanish, Bouncing Fish, Boost Kick, and Flip Jump?" (Also see: Quick Attack)

On the other hand, Lateral Kick:

• 16% damage, frame 4 OoS option, extremely early KO power: The same absurd numbers as Boost Kick.
• Kills horizontally--so it kills later than Boost Kick in general, but earlier in preferred conditions. (Potentially much earlier)
• Gives ZSS absurd diagonal recovery, letting her safely expend both down-b and double jump to aggress super deep.

And Shooting Star Kick:

• Both the jump and the kick can be angled either direction (independently), like Mii Brawler's.
• But unlike Brawler's piddly 8% tickle, SSK touts a 17% low-horizontal startup hitbox that kills Mario on 3DS FD at ~55%.
• ...and a respectable 14% hitbox for the rest of its duration.
• The 17% hit is guaranteed on ranged full-charge paralyzer, and guaranteed (reverse direction) on high-% (or mid-% charged) d-smash.
• Those are possibly ZSS's optimal shield break options, for both damage and KO power?

You'll note the two moves cover each other's drawbacks to some extent. SSK is normally devastating but suicidal to use offensively off-stage, but Lateral Kick lets ZSS still recover--trivially, in fact.

Meanwhile, off a high-% d-smash, you have the option of Lateral Kick to KO forward, or reverse SSK to KO backwards; this addresses some of the reward consistency cost of giving up Boost Kick's vertical kills.


I don't suspect that giving up Boost Kick and Flip Jump will ever become stylish propositions, anymore than people will decide that Bouncing Fish is overrated. But even if Kickmaster Zamus is not as good as her default set, she is still probably a top-X-calibur character in her own right with some very unique and compelling options to offer. Go try her, she's fun.

I've been messing around with Ganon's customs lately and I feel all character boards should look into how customs work with one another.

Wizard's Assault and Flame Chain have shown surprising synergy thus far. Flame Chain knocks people at a very horizontal angle offstage, which you can follow with offstage with an onstage Wizard's Assault (moves considerably further than both other Down-Bs) for some incredibly deep edge-guarding. I haven't tested it extensively, so it might not be useful long term, and it certainly won't revolutionize his meta, but it does show that a seemingly trash custom (Wizard's Assault) can be made decent by another custom.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh yeah Greninja mains have been getting more into Stagnant Shuriken as well.

If you think Greninja is already silly with the footstools then I'll let you know it likely only gets sillier with customs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Ffamran On the subject of situational custom synergy...y'know I think Falco Charge actually isn't bad. It's kinda undertuned, sure, but it actually does some useful things that have synergy with running Fast Firebird.

Firstoff, Fast Firebird in a sense actually lets you choose something other than Falco Phantasm (or Falco Phase) for Falco's negative state. So this allows you to explore Falco Charge.

Now at a glance, it looks terrible. The "strong" hitbox really isn't that strong of a kill move, and the rest of the move only does 4%, less than Falco Phantasm. And of course, it doesn't send you very far. But wait, the fact it doesn't send you far is actually really important! This opens up completely different followup and edgeguard applications of the move.

One of the primary risks of using Falco Phantasm as an edgeguard is the fact it sends you so far offstage that it leaves you noticeably vulnerable. This is a bit less of a problem with Falco Phase, and from this position, the strong hitbox isn't looking bad as a conditional kill move.

But what about just general punishes? The 4% hitbox at the end of the move puts people in a nice position where you can immediately followup with a juggle move like U-smash or U-air. While this doesn't combo as far as I'm aware, this DOES work as a setup at even very high percents, when Falco's other throws stop being reliable for followups. The move gives you enough distance to chase people that would normally be just in range of DA for landings, but the followup and trap potential is better.

By relying on Fast Firebird for keeping Falco out of bad situations instead of Falco's SideB, Falco Phase instead allows some unique offensive applications that are difficult to replicate on any of Falco's other moves.

 

[Shaya]

@Thinkaman
Well ZSS recovery is already a pretty great thing, and the extra risks in your actions from those things are pretty daunting and likely just not worth it.

ZSS is already primed towards keeping people towards the ledges while controlling centre stage. Near and around ledges her boost kick becomes essentially not survivable by any meaningful DI as it is (only holding down increases survivability, which is turning the more vertical knockback into horizontal), Lateral Kick near and around the ledge will get you killed if I'm recalling correctly. This area of zoning is also where our confirms into flip jump are killing at 30% and we're getting those things more and more fleshed out with how flip jump is currently controlled. Lateral kick seems counterproductive to how her current play style and stage positioning work.

Flip Jump is already a guaranteed confirm from paralyzer and it kills from all sorts of distances and while not as strong as a kill will be in practice more easy to hit with. I also just lost multiple sentences in this paragraph accidentally and don't have it in me atm to do it again #_#. There are easier ledge cancels to be had like with Brawler's, I think his easier to work with. The less maneuverability, neutral applications and control of where you can hit someone and it's extreme risk are hard to justify. There's probably merit to figuring out what can be further confirmed on her into it as it goes further horizontally faster (but with less control), but when we have a move that's as strong and versatile as it is, the "stronger" option with less versatility doesn't seem to be worth it; recovery will be weaker too and the lateral kick may allow her to get back but it's suddenly more telegraphed situations involved for an opponent to play around.

 

[Gawain]

Oh yeah Greninja mains have been getting more into Stagnant Shuriken as well.

If you think Greninja is already silly with the footstools then I'll let you know it likely only gets sillier with customs.

That's kinda like the lightning Falcon kick stun/footstool shenanigans. Though, can't they just DI out of those up airs?

 

[FullMoon]

That's kinda like the lightning Falcon kick stun/footstool shenanigans. Though, can't they just DI out of those up airs?

They can't DI out of the Up-Airs, but they can DI the up-tilt to make the Up-Air follow up harder I believe. This is just a concept combo though, there's still a lot to develop concerning that custom.

Still Greninja probably has the easiest setups into footstools, both in defaults and customs. Considering Japan is already implementing footstool combos into their Greninja play, I can see footstools becoming a big part of Greninja's meta in the future and considering how much reward he can get out of them, it sure will be crazy if those combos start to become frequent.

 

[Ffamran]

Would of preferred this in the Falco customs thread, but whatever...

@ Ffamran On the subject of situational custom synergy...y'know I think Falco Charge actually isn't bad. It's kinda undertuned, sure, but it actually does some useful things that have synergy with running Fast Firebird.

Falco Charge with super armor would have been amazing or if the sour-spot was a stronger.

Firstoff, Fast Firebird in a sense actually lets you choose something other than Falco Phantasm (or Falco Phase) for Falco's negative state. So this allows you to explore Falco Charge.

This is the main reason why I prefer Fast Fire Bird over Distant Fire Bird. Default Fire Bird is the default and it's tuned towards how Falco's kit functions, although, it would have been nice if Falco's default Fire Bird was "Wolfified" into something like Fire Wolf, a faster charging, but shorter traveling Fire Fox or at least give him "Thunder Bird", but I digress.

Anyway, the main point of having Fast Fire Bird is that it gives Falco two burst movements and it gives him options: is he going to escape with Fast Fire Bird or Falco Phantasm/Phase/Charge? That's the beauty of Fast Fire Bird. None of the Fire Bird options kill reliably, so nobody is really going to pick a Fire Bird custom for killing. Default Fire Bird already charges slowly while traveling pitifully compared to Fox's Fire Fox which means it's really exploitable and Fast Fire Bird fixes this by having startup about as fast as Falco Phantasm while Distant Fire Bird adds in some distance - still less than Fire Fox and Flying Fox which covers about 2/3's of Final Destination - for a longer charge time; Distant Fire Bird, Falco Phantasm, and I think Twisting Fox travel about the same length of half of FD. Personally, that charge time doesn't justify the slightly increased range and how Falco can go deeper for edgeguards. At a certain point, it's already too deep and unnecessary. Falco already covers enough that most of the cast won't be able to come back from Nair, Fair, or Dair. Knowing that some characters can go deeper by default and that Distant Fire Bird charges slowly and travels slowly, it'd be easy to gimp as well especially if you have a natural disjoint like Link, Meta Knight, and Marth.

Now at a glance, it looks terrible. The "strong" hitbox really isn't that strong of a kill move, and the rest of the move only does 4%, less than Falco Phantasm. And of course, it doesn't send you very far. But wait, the fact it doesn't send you far is actually really important! This opens up completely different followup and edgeguard applications of the move.

One of the primary risks of using Falco Phantasm as an edgeguard is the fact it sends you so far offstage that it leaves you noticeably vulnerable. This is a bit less of a problem with Falco Phase, and from this position, the strong hitbox isn't looking bad as a conditional kill move.

Like in past games, Falco can just jump out and Falco Phantasm back towards the ledge and catch people to spike them that way or he could do this and catch people with the trail which seems to be the hitbox of Falco Phantasm unlike Fox Illusion which might be Fox as the hitbox. People didn't do that since there was no reason why Falco had a much quicker spike: Dair. Using Falco Phantasm and current Dair requires a read which Falco Charge still needs compared to a safer read with Bair or even Fair.

But what about just general punishes? The 4% hitbox at the end of the move puts people in a nice position where you can immediately followup with a juggle move like U-smash or U-air. While this doesn't combo as far as I'm aware, this DOES work as a setup at even very high percents, when Falco's other throws stop being reliable for followups. The move gives you enough distance to chase people that would normally be just in range of DA for landings, but the followup and trap potential is better.

Using an aerial Falco Phantasm on grounded opponents or just regular, grounded Phantasm pops people up at an 80 degree angle which setups up for Uair and Bair. Falco Charge's sour-spot pops people up at a 65 degree angle which probably does the same thing, but if the Japanese frame data is right, then Falco Phantasm is a quicker option than Falco Charge; Phantasm begins at frame 18 while Charge begins at frame 21. So, similar applications, but a higher angle would probably allow Falco more leeway since they won't be as close to the ground.

The difference would be potentially if you want aerial or ground options. Someone people would prefer to catch with an aerial, especially since Bair is so high reward and low risk while others would rather try to catch with a ground move which considering how strong his Side Smash is, makes sense.

By relying on Fast Firebird for keeping Falco out of bad situations instead of Falco's SideB, Falco Phase instead allows some unique offensive applications that are difficult to replicate on any of Falco's other moves.

That's kind of a given with how customs work like how Aether Drive changes how Ike recovers and can cover the ledge. Oh, and it's a decent kill move since the throw part kills Mario at like 172%. Not that impressive, but it's kind of funny and someone is bound to make use of Aether Drive like that. The only problem is figuring out what customs can do and even then, there's the issue of figuring out what characters' default moveset can do. People are still tapping into stuff like Mario's Dtilt, Meta Knight's Utilt, and more. There's a lot to look at and study. What's made worse is that some moves haven't changed much at all, but because there were better options in past games, stuff gets overlooked like how Falco's Dtilt wasn't used as much compared to a quicker punish with Dash Attack. Other characters have it even rougher like Zelda whose Ftilt used to be a good option, but now it's meh because of its deadzone and the fact Side Smash is a better option that comes out 4 frames slower - 12 versus 16 - and kills much earlier without having to deal with sour-spots and sweet-spots.

 

[Browny]

It is really saddening that the reason people try to justify Mac as bad, mediocre, or as a bad solo main is because of his recovery (I have doubts his MuU spread is as polarized as claimed).

Yes it sucks. It sucks horribly and is complete garbage.

But you know what? It isn't actually a big deal. Why?

Becwuse he has the best neutral game in the game, yes I even think it is better then Sheik's (or at least on par), on top of a terrifying punish game. You have to actually get him off the stage first and against a competent Mac that is easier said the done. And as the meta develops I can only see him going up and I could see him as a good solo main.

This is exactly why I was going on before.

To the Mac haters; so what if Mac has a horrid recovery, what difference does it make when he KO's you before you get him offstage once by being seriously hard to punish?

Mac has to be top half of the cast.

 

[TriTails]

wait, people are now figuring out reddit is a hivemind? is it 2012?

i literally could never figure out how would even lose to a character with such poor mobility as . like, what does it matter if he's lightweight when isn't going to get to him anyways? qa and thunderjolt exist.

speaking of mus, i think he goes even with or even have a slight disadvantage (barely, like 55:45 maybe). he loses neutral super hard because she doesn't care about fireballs, and she can challenge his recovery. is mobility challenged but it really doesn't matter when has it way worse. if gets grabs is pretty screwed due to losing frame 3 nair. *cries*

i'm not the most informed on , so i'm hoping someone like @ TriTails can help me with this.

I'm not sure on Pika's MU (Though. None of Luigi mains even think he is a threat). But y'all are overrating TJs. You can clash it with Fireballs and it's pretty easy to shield due to how obvious it is (And throw a Fireball as a retalitation). Not sure on QA, but Cyclone might be able to hit Pika out of it.

Usually, being patient with your movement can break through TJ walls. I might have seen the outdated video but Boss owns Kenny once with Pika.

Peach is as rare as **** in videos. I have only ever saw Boss vs Pink Fresh and Mr. Con con... vs... who was that? I saw Luigi wins both though.

I need confirmation, why Peach doesn't care about Fireballs? Toad? Well, you don't hit me that way. Turnips? Fireballs can be thrown faster and they are fairly easy to dodge. Float? You literally are moving in Fireballs' range.

And also, keep in mind Peach is light and 2nd floatiest. She still can be comboed (Though, not as well) and dies early to HooHahNado, and you really can't force yourself falling out of it. About neutral, I'm not sure. But if Luigi manages to get in the advantage Peach is toast.

I think Luigi will end up facing similar issues as he did in Brawl aka everybody just starts to camp the living **** out of this character and suddenly a lot of matchups that seems to be solidly in his favor will actually turn out to be pretty evenish. That's mainly regarding Pikachu and Fox whom I don't believe to actually lose against Luigi.

Come on guys. I don't play Brawl or Melee but I need to tell you all Luigi's mobility has been moderately improved in Smash 4. Fireballs can neutralize half of the campings, and the fact that he doesn't run slower than freaking Zelda now would at least make it harder for him to camped out, especially with the power of shield in this game. Mega Man and Pac still poops at him, but other than that I don't feel any characters that can make Luigi kneel down and shout out 'WWWHHHYYYYY!!!!??????'.

And I firmly believe Fox is beaten by Luigi. Luigi's crawling makes Fox's Blaster is unusable in neutral, he boops Fox due to Fox's bad disadvantage, double jab + U-smash is useless because N-air, Fox can't really gimp him (Someone confirm this), and Fox dies pretty early due to light weight (A toughie to kill with HooHahNado, but fairly easy with B-air). All Fox got in this MU is pretty much mobility, but that doesn't really matter when you are out-boxed and your optimal range is apparently the opposion's optimal range too.

That said, Luigi dies fairly early against U-smash, but so does Fox with RAR B-air or F-smash.

Pika might be need to be analyzed further, but I guess I'll just stick with even because I don't know a ****ing thing about this MU.

fastest nair in the game, right?

isnt that a good defensive aerial option if not air dodging?

Doesn't really matter when you find out it reaches out like 2 mm and deals 2% and can be usually beaten by just about anything despite being able to use it 2 times in one shorthop due to the frame 2 execution.

The twos are real. Top lel.

If the character loses to Sheik, Rosalina, Megaman, Pac-Man and Villager while not having an advantage against most top tiers then how the hell is that supposed to add up to top 5. Unless he has positive matchups against Yoshi, ZSS, Sonic, Ness, Diddy and Wario all at the same time then his matchups simply aren't good enough for a top spot.

There's still mid tier-ish characters left where it's quite unclear how Luigi performs. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if somebody like Ike ends up giving Luigi a hard time.

Yoshi seems fairly even to me. His aerials and mobility may be a pain to deal with but then I decided to just run under his retreating F-air and U-smash. he is also fairly floaty and HooHahNado is feasible.

ZSS' Paralyzer is beaten by Fireballs. This is basically a battle of patience. ZSS' Flip Jump enables her to punish Fireballs' end lag so Luigi must be careful here. But ZSS is fairly easy to combo and kill with HooHahNado. Catching her is a pain in the *ss though. (Pro tip: Cyclone can catch her in Flip Jump).

Sonic is fairly even or in Luigi's favor. If you can keep up with Homing Attacks, Spin Dashes, and his speed he is beatable. Fireballs beat Spin Dashes, and a poorly timed Homing Attack will get punished by an U-smash. In fact, I just fought a Sonic player in FG just about a while ago. He was clearly better than me because I lost 4 out of 5 matches and got out-played half of the time, but the one win I get is from adaptating to his sytle (His options are beatable, but trickery is real), and the last lose is because I was stupid enough to recover low against him. But my babblings aside, Luigi mains don't seem to worry too much about this MU.

Ness and Diddy's general consensus is that Luigi beats them both, but I'm not sure.

Wario is... WAH! questionable.

Calling in @Sinister Slush @ Shaya @Terios the Hedgehog @ Luco @Diddy Kong and Wario mains to help me out because I'm not good at guiding my buttons.

 

[Luco]

Luigi is strange and weird. Our opinions range from 55-45 Ness' favour (this isn't a popular opinion though) all the way to 40-60 Luigi's favour (also not a popular opinion). The most accepted idea at this stage amongst the Ness mains is that it's even, but one of our top players believes it's at least a -1 (and it's not an outlandish opinion for Ness mains to say it's 45-55 Luigi's favour).

I've had trouble with Luigi a couple times, but I have the feeling I'm doing the MU wrong. Magnet cancelling is actually a pretty big deal in this MU because Luigi will not only heal us but we'll have a massive frame advantage (I hear you do on block if it's close enough anyway but still) when we jump (and I suspect jump or maybe a backward roll is the only thing we should do in that situation). I also think Ness can take advantage of Luigi's ice-slide effect by spacing aerials more, but once again I haven't really tested it. On the other hand Luigi's killing ability is probably on par with ours, and it doesn't take many grabs to get us there either.

There's probably some good tournament data for this MU actually, and I'd be interested to see it.

 

[Ffamran]

'Cause I like being an ***.

Come on guys. I don't play Brawl or Melee but I need to tell you all Luigi's mobility has been moderately improved in Smash 4.

From Melee to Brawl to Smash 4, Luigi...

Attribute|||
Air speed|0.68|0.7332|0.73418
Fall speed|1.6|1.22|1.25
Walk speed|1.1|1.08|1.08
Running speed|1.34|1.34|1.5

Of freaking course they buff his and Ike's run speed and leave Falco to run slow as molasses. And of course they give Luigi and Ike Melee Falco's run speed, but "buff" Falco to run 0.050 faster than in Brawl; 1.432 to 1.472. Is it so difficult to just make it 1.5!?