Character Competitive Impressions

[Browny]

Then he will just get nerfed.

Which I fully support.

Everyone main Fox!

I love balance patches. The more the better

 

[FullMoon]

It's amazing just how underdeveloped Greninja is in the west compared to Japan.

That Hydro Pump ledge trump was sick af.

 

[evmaxy54]

Then he will just get nerfed.

Which I fully support.

Everyone main Fox!

I love balance patches. The more the better

Only to stop the jab lock shenanigans

Otherwise he's fine

Mewtwo is still p icky soooooooooooo

It's amazing just how underdeveloped Greninja is in the west compared to Japan.

That Hydro Pump ledge trump was sick af.

TBF

The West does suck at this game

 

[Emblem Lord]

Garbage enough that a 14 y/o Mewtwo main scared Ally away from using Marth in tournament.

Mewtwos OK. Just compared to the top tiers hes not a brain-dead autopilot character with a safe, spammable approach.

Hes got some pretty devastating combos hardly anyone is utilising in tournament because you need more effort than dthrow-upair.

jab-dtilt-fair-fair is a true combo for 35% against most of the cast from low %, dair oos-fair is 27%.

Its feasible to get the enemy to 88% in 3 hits with M2 (35+27+26 shadow ball) and these arent hard to land attacks. Just like how fox mains are learning to incorporate jab locks and pivot ftilt nonsense into their game, Mewtwo mains will get those fat combos in muscle memory.

Also nair offstage to catch upb's, drag the enemy down and then combo into a footstool is something I've managed to pull off a few times now which can KO stupidly early on anyone playing around offstage.

Again, once these opportunistic combos are used more he will be a bigger threat.

Scared him from using a NOT top tier character that he's been using for less then a month?

lolwut

Or perhaps you thought that would move me since I play Marth?

Guess again

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Mewtwo DID come second in a 140 man tournament thanks to Trela.

More than what a lot of characters can say (including some considered to be high tier I suspect?). Results don't mean everything, but you gotta have SOME tools to pull that off. Ain't doing that in a large tournament with good competition with a bottom 5 character.

He's probably a lot of effort for not enough payoff, but he's not complete garbage. That's already been proven.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Did it ever occur to anyone that being garbage in THIS game isn't as terrible as being garbage in 99% of other fighters?

What the ****

 

[Signia]

Captain Falcon's Zero to Death Combo, works on (almost) EVERY CHARACTER!

A good portion of that combo doesn't require customs. Look out for that falling uair at mid 30%....

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Did it ever occur to anyone that being garbage in THIS game isn't as terrible as being garbage in 99% of other fighters?

What the ****

Again:

How many characters can say they got 2nd in a tournament that large while still being considered "garbage"?

Considering the number is "none" (because Swordfighter is suddenly getting hype), I'd say that it proves that Mewtwo doesn't belong in that category: its has proven that his tools actually do work well at a high level of play. Which I again stress: it not something an actually garbage character can say.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When Mewtwo does this consistently when everyone knows the match then we can talk.

If Samus wins ONE major are we suddenly going to say she isn't trash?

That's NOT how tiers work and we ALL know that.

 

[Smog Frog]

well, if everyone knew the mu, they would still have to deal with all the mixups. i'll gladly enlighten if you're feeling inquisitive.

 

[Mario766]

Garbage enough that a 14 y/o Mewtwo main scared Ally away from using Marth in tournament.

Sparky isn't a Mewtwo main, he's a Luigi main.

Also I'm pretty sure Ally literally has zero Mewtwo knowledge, he even asks if Disable is his down b move.

 

[Ffamran]

That's NOT how tiers work and we ALL know that.

We know that, but they don't. The masses don't know anything and if say, Fox gets a 1% nerf on his Uair, Fox drops tiers if not becomes bottom to them. For us, it's an inconvenience. The masses with their dumb "tier list" on Eventhubs - hell am I going back there - has Mewtwo like top 10 and Diddy somewhere in mid tier last time I checked about a week ago. It's like watching people buy a computer and opt for a freaking Mac when all they're going to do is check their email. You can tell them not to and try to reason with them, but they will not listen.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

I like how Tweek was using SH u-airs while holding Mechakoopas to bait defensive reactions. Beating Will and ADHD is such a great accomplishment for him! Jr. can still be developed much further.

Props to Will exposing Angel Cortes and props to Nairo for getting revenge on ADHD for KTAR (even got a down-b spike on Battlefield in the same spot, complete deja vu)

I think Nairo has earned the right to be called Sm4sh's 2nd best above Dabuz now.

How did Will expose Angel Cortes?

 

[Ffamran]

How did Will expose Angel Cortes?

He didn't and we're not supposed to discuss about that here unless you want Shaya to murder you all.

 

[Smog Frog]

explanation: basically angel wrote a giant essay saying that everyone was a fraud and that he would expose them. since then, its become a meme in that whenever angel wins/loses a match, the chat erupts with "exposed".

 

[PUK]

We know that, but they don't. The masses don't know anything and if say, Fox gets a 1% nerf on his Uair, Fox drops tiers if not becomes bottom to them. For us, it's an inconvenience. The masses with their dumb "tier list" on Eventhubs - hell am I going back there - has Mewtwo like top 10 and Diddy somewhere in mid tier last time I checked about a week ago. It's like watching people buy a computer and opt for a freaking Mac when all they're going to do is check their email. You can tell them not to and try to reason with them, but they will not listen.

And both wario and MK are bottom lol

 

[NachoOfCheese]

And both wario and MK are bottom lol

Luigi is mid tier too lol it doesn't even count as a For Glory tier list.

 

[Djent]

Did it ever occur to anyone that being garbage in THIS game isn't as terrible as being garbage in 99% of other fighters?

What the ****

I can say that my concept of "garbage" doesn't scale with the range of character strengths. If the bottom tier can still compete to some extent, then I think the correct conclusion is that {garbage characters} is an empty set. I wouldn't recast "garbage" to mean something other than unviable.

 

[Pyr]

IMO I think a simple solution to the whole "garbage" thing is to stop using silly, dated slang and actually describing a character's strength level relative to the cast and why they have that strength level. At least posts would be more then 3 sentences long if that was done.

 

[Ffamran]

On another note, what do you all think of and where do you think Mii Gunner , Wii Fit Trainer , and Shulk stand as of now? Defaults, customs, results, in theory, in practice, and all that jazz.

 

[Smog Frog]

default has no rep aside from tkbreezy, we saw potential w/ @san. yesterday, and still no rep for , customs or not. custom has decent rep in john#s. the bigger question is, when is gonna come out of the woodworks and start dominating?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Yo @ Smog Frog Waveguider (I think is his name) in Australia placed 4th at BAM7 with WFT, customs off. No other reps indeed. >.>

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Can't really speak for Shulk on a grander scale because there's like no Shulk reps right now that I've heard of (lots of people have dropped him though...Ally, John#s, and Trela all played him at some point.). But from my personal experience...I think he's okay. His frame data alone is going to prevent him from ever being a top-tier threat but he's got a few good movement/cancel tricks with Monado arts along with the stat alterations they provide. Plus the Monado being a big-ass sword gives him a solid mid-range game, especially with buster active to make he attacks safer. His trouble comes when a character can break into his zone and keep hitting him because he doesn't have a lot of good "get off me" moves. Fox is a nightmare from my personal experience and Shulk Boards puts Sheik and arguably Sonic as -2 as well.

Custom-wise he has some solid options. Power vision makes his already-strong counter even stronger, Advancing Air Slash does extra damage and gives him an interesting horizontal aerial option, and consensus seems to be all three art variations have their perks.

We'll see where he goes. We've got players still putting in work for him and I know I'm not done with him yet either.

Oh yeah PS his Utilt is life.

 

[Ffamran]

Crispytacoz uses Shulk and I believe Luigi. Not the best, but a known Shulk user in CA. Also, wasn't there a dude named SilentDoom or something who used Shulk?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Yeah SilentDoom plays him and Jerm's pretty solid too IIRC. I've actually never seen Doom play though he's put up some solid results in our result thread.

 

[Ikes]

Mmm, idk if I'd agree with this. Smash 4 is appearing to be a lot more balanced than Melee in the overall roster. Mewtwo and Zelda could hardly do anything in Melee, but in this game, they can at least put up a fight.

Being one of the worst characters in this game will get you a lot further than being one of the worst in Melee I think.

remember though that since release swordfighter was pretty much accepted to be terrible

only recently have people started to shift opinions about him partially due to Trela's tournament results and partially due to new setups and techniques found for swordfighter

so we really need to give mewtwo players more time to lab him up before making these early assumptions of his placings, otherwise we might be discouraging players from playing mewtwo, and that would be all around bad because then we'd have much less chance to actually find mewtwo tech and setups due to a small mewtwo playerbase.

Basically, everyone here ought to try mewtwo and get some work done on him :¬)

 

[Lavani]

Swordfighter also got some buffs in the most recent patch so that nair actually does something when it hits, and...more knockback(damage?) on Hero's Spin? And maybe some other things, someone more well-versed on the character would know better than I.

I don't want to believe Mewtwo would really be bottom 5 material or anything when his neutral B is reminiscent of a chargeable Luigi fireball in terms of end lag and he can kill as early as he does, but his size and weight are certainly crippling factors...and at the end of the day, someone has to be bad relative to the rest of the cast. I do feel it's a bit early to write the character off, though.

 

[David Viran]

Does anybody miss DACUS because I don't.

https://vine.co/v/OAQxKbIuwJb

 

[Lavani]

Does anybody miss DACUS because I don't.

https://vine.co/v/OAQxKbIuwJb

The only thing I'm sad about in regards to DACUS being patched out is that we never got to see the glory of Ganon DACUS on Wii U.

 

[TriTails]

I don't want to believe Mewtwo would really be bottom 5 material or anything when his neutral B is reminiscent of a chargeable Luigi fireball in terms of end lag and he can kill as early as he does, but his size and weight are certainly crippling factors...and at the end of the day, someone has to be bad relative to the rest of the cast. I do feel it's a bit early to write the character off, though.

Is it just me or Shadow Ball just deal ridiculous shield damage? A fully charged one chips off more than half of your full shield.

 

[Lavani]

Is it just me or Shadow Ball just deal ridiculous shield damage? A fully charged one chips off more than half of your full shield.

Well, it does 25% fully charged and shields have 50 health, so...

 

[Antonykun]

Is it just me or Shadow Ball just deal ridiculous shield damage? A fully charged one chips off more than half of your full shield.

a shield has 50% health shadow ball deals 25% damage when fully charged
lavani plz drop that greninja

 

[Browny]

When Mewtwo does this consistently when everyone knows the match then we can talk.

If Samus wins ONE major are we suddenly going to say she isn't trash?

That's NOT how tiers work and we ALL know that.

This is the same crap that happened with brawl

Smash is so stupid like this.

Everyone was like 'Sonic is bottom 5 trash' (which he was in first tier list) he will never do anything.
*Espy places really high in regionals going solo Sonic*
"Thats just one player being really good, character is still bad"
*X starts dominating as well*
"But theyll never beat top players"
*Espy and X both beat top players*
"Yeah well they will never win a national tournament!"

You start by saying the character is garbage, and then in a few years you still say the character is garbage because they cant solo win a national despite winning locals and placing high in regionals. That would make them high tier if that was the case.

Classic 'moving the goal post' behaviour that infests the smash community, all to support the status quo because people dont want to believe that something other than their 5-minute impression is true.

That pretty much sums up this entire thread actually. Its all about setting pre-conceptions and picking arguments to support those point of views only.

Lack of matchup johns are literally the worst. Ally is one of the best players in the world, he doesnt have an excuse for matchup johns. There is NO REASON why sparky cant pull the same matchup johns saying hes never played a good marth in smash 4 because really, who has? Serious question. The kid isnt even old enough to rely on brawl marth matchup knowledge while Ally would know of what melee mewtwo could do.

 

[Ikes]

I think they probably did, that and having poor throw follow-ups. His moveset and frame data are excellent and whilst he doesn't exactly lose to shield (at least not now that Dthrow deals good damage) he struggles to kill someone who uses their shield well at high percents. I still think he'd be one of the best characters in the game if he had his Brawl Fthrow, which comboed into Uair and Fair until mid-high percents.

Also Sheik is the Fairest character by far

reminder that dair has pretty much no landing lag and is a starter for utilt combos

also sheik is the FAIRest character by far haha get it

 

[Unknownkid]

Swordfighter also got some buffs in the most recent patch so that nair actually does something when it hits, and...more knockback(damage?) on Hero's Spin? And maybe some other things, someone more well-versed on the character would know better than I.
.

Nair got Buff - Good. I don't know why it was doing 5 damage previously with its startup and ending lag.

Hero's Spin got Buff - Weird... but okay Sakurai. You made our Best Up B even more better. We can kill early with Jab2->Hero's Spin or OoS->Hero's Spin. Thanks!

Dtilt got Buff - Wait... are you serious, Sakurai? You just buff one of our best moves. It is our fastest attack at 5 frames that now does 8 damages, good range, combo into itself at low percentage, combo into grab and combo into our strongest aerial. "OKAY"-Ness

No, Swordfigher still sucks guys. Please keep in him low tier in your tier list. He needs more "buffs".

 

[Djent]

So now that has DI-dependent HSB setups that kill ~40% near the ledge, I don't ever want anyone to claim tiny is the best customs character again. Pikachu has arguably comparably ridiculous burst mobility (QA vs. Feint Jump...hmm), is more versatile securing high-% KOs because more of his regular moves start killing, and is stronger in the neutral position thanks to a strong ground game + real projectile. Brawler has better survivability and normal air speed, but I don't think that's enough to make up the difference. Of course, none of this means that Pika is the best with customs on (though I think he is), but I think it does mean that Brawler has to be below him.

 

[Antonykun]

This is the same crap that happened with brawl

Smash is so stupid like this.

Everyone was like 'Sonic is bottom 5 trash' (which he was in first tier list) he will never do anything.
*Espy places really high in regionals going solo Sonic*
"Thats just one player being really good, character is still bad"
*X starts dominating as well*
"But theyll never beat top players"
*Espy and X both beat top players*
"Yeah well they will never win a national tournament!"

You start by saying the character is garbage, and then in a few years you still say the character is garbage because they cant solo win a national despite winning locals and placing high in regionals. That would make them high tier if that was the case.

Classic 'moving the goal post' behaviour that infests the smash community, all to support the status quo because people dont want to believe that something other than their 5-minute impression is true.

That pretty much sums up this entire thread actually. Its all about setting pre-conceptions and picking arguments to support those point of views only.

Lack of matchup johns are literally the worst. Ally is one of the best players in the world, he doesnt have an excuse for matchup johns. There is NO REASON why sparky cant pull the same matchup johns saying hes never played a good marth in smash 4 because really, who has? Serious question. The kid isnt even old enough to rely on brawl marth matchup knowledge while Ally would know of what melee mewtwo could do.

tbh talk to @GeneralLedge about mii sword and reditt and he'll tell how much he knows about moving the goalposts

 

[Unknownkid]

tbh talk to @GeneralLedge about mii sword and reditt and he'll tell how much he knows about moving the goalposts

Not only Reddit but also Twitch Chat but who cares about Twitch Chat.

 

[Macedonian]

sometimes i really dont understand why people dont want to talk about tier list, i mean people are always going want to discuss it, and i believe this would be the most educated place to have a tier list discussion. but it always feels like anyone brings up tier list discussion its like people are so worried we are going to be wrong with something and we dont know everything so we cant even talk about it.

what is so wrong with being wrong about a tier list? i mean a tier list is supposed to reflect the current meta anyways, so shouldnt it reflect who is developed and currently doing well, and not fret over all of this potential of underexposed characters like MK or mii Sword. also it would alow us to have much more relative discussions about placements of characters instead of saying every character ever is "mid" or "High" tier

 

[Browny]

Reddit is just a circlejerk of wannabe memers

Post an opinion or anecdotal evidence to challenge baseless claims of certain characters being good/bad, instant downvotes.
'Falcon makes me Kreygasm' = topkek