Character Competitive Impressions

[thehard]

I like how Tweek was using SH u-airs while holding Mechakoopas to bait defensive reactions. Beating Will and ADHD is such a great accomplishment for him! Jr. can still be developed much further.

Props to Will exposing Angel Cortes and props to Nairo for getting revenge on ADHD for KTAR (even got a down-b spike on Battlefield in the same spot, complete deja vu)

I think Nairo has earned the right to be called Sm4sh's 2nd best above Dabuz now.

 

[Nobie]

Also I think Meta Knight's f-smash should not be underestimated. Yeah, it's a read-based move, but it hits super hard, and it's nigh-unpunishable.

Just think about the idea that a character can just throw out a hard read and you often can't even retaliate if he misses.

 

[wedl!!]

um can you explain how and are worse than

how is customs a broken tier character

and are not mid tier, not even close; is high mid at the worst and is top 10

is top 10, debatably top 5. putting above him is basically admitting you know nothing about the game. speaking of the memelord, why the **** is he top 10?

is a high tier character OH WAIT HE HAS NO RESULTS SO AUTOMATIC MID TIER VOID OWAWOOO

is bad

is not bottom 10 wtf

where are ? i don't see any of those characters on the list

til is a low tier hero and is worse than

 

[Smog Frog]

even better, shoryuken has setups. sh downward thrown metal blade->shoryuken is a true combo for a long time.

 

[Ulevo]

The matchup is a hard one to get good at because of how rare Bowser Jr mains are.

Okay, but the people Tweek beats are players he regularly plays against in tournament. For those players, Bowser Jr. is not an anomaly.

 

[wedl!!]

why does fsmash not follow the rules like an edgy sonic recolor

@ Smog Frog i don't have a video of it but fair beats out bair i'm pretty sure. when i can i'll try to make a gif of it. this might carry over to his other tail moves (could be dependent on spacing)

 

[Smog Frog]

sticks his butt out to whip with his tail for bair. he does a flip for utilt(which may or may not extend/reduce his hurtbox)

 

[Kofu]

I like how Tweek was using SH u-airs while holding Mechakoopas to bait defensive reactions. Beating Will and ADHD is such a great accomplishment for him! Jr. can still be developed much further.

Props to Will exposing Angel Cortes and props to Nairo for getting revenge on ADHD for KTAR (even got a down-b spike on Battlefield in the same spot, complete deja vu)

I think Nairo has earned the right to be called Sm4sh's 2nd best above Dabuz now.

What is the process for using aerials while holding an item? I was under the impression it couldn't be done anymore (outside of Peach's float) but apparently I was wrong.

 

[Blobface]

even Slide can kill lighter characters when Rage is in effect.

When I read this, I pictured Megaman setting up an entire Slip N' Slide and belly flopping into someone causing them to die.

Just a quick question for everyone here: If we could hypothetically make two identical characters, one with loads of kill setups that hit like a wet sponge and don't kill until 140% and one with no kill setups but tons of moves that kill off a read at 60%, which would you choose?

 

[wedl!!]

Just a quick question for everyone here: If we could hypothetically make two identical characters, one with loads of kill setups that hit like a wet sponge and don't kill until 140% and one with no kill setups but tons of moves that kill off a read at 60%, which would you choose?

so basically and ? that's what you're describing to me right now

 

[Locke 06]

but I think there are A LOT of actions that lead to it in a way that's practically unavoidable, the duration of the time you can input the kick (and the length of time it's out) naturally frame traps air dodges.

While yes, you're locked into a range of trajectories. Drifting away or towards ZSS while airdodging can get out of the trap in my experience. For some characters with bad recoveries, Bthrow>spike could be death whether or not you drift away or not, but I haven't seen it used on our local Mac yet in the 3 or so sets they've had (likely because it requires him to get grabbed with an f16 move at the edge and he can punish that haaaard).

Back Air also true combos into it.
You'll see semi-reliable chaining into it from up air or down throw. It's still feasible to get hits with fair, forward throw, moves which hit people downwards towards ledges where they're locked from grabbing it (side-b, first hit fair, ftilt).

Can't seem to see what you're seeing with FAir/Fthrow/side-B/ftilt as they either hit too low of an angle to allow you to follow up without them just going under you or too laggy. For reference, I don't see any of them chaining into it more than jab combo... I'll keep my eyes out for development, but at the moment, it doesn't seem to be either as easy or as feasible to do as NAir>spike.

Also yes, the footstool jump is really the only "weakness" the move has, although at a lot of levels it's cheesy punish for people's smash charging habits as it seems all charge animations get rooted, although what actually defines when it'll root someone or otherwise is somewhat unknown to me/inconsistent.
But yes, understanding flip jump is understanding the footstool thing is it's greatest flaw. Flip Jump can be used in neutral a bit though, but that 'issue' isn't too applicable in follow up situations.

Yeah, the issue doesn't come up in follow up situations at all, but it limits the moves utility, especially as a recovery option (curse you gigantic tether!). Its ability to get out of traps is not to be underestimated though, but having little utility in neutral makes me pause when calling it the best move in the game. I still hate it though like the other amazing moves.

I will say, I prefer being above 90% against ZSS much more than I like being at 40-60%.

What is the process for using aerials while holding an item? I was under the impression it couldn't be done anymore (outside of Peach's float) but apparently I was wrong.

z-drop>recatch aerial. Depending on where your character holds items, you can do them in place, advancing, or retreating. Mega man holds his items behind him, because he's a weirdo, so he can't do advancing SH pellets while maintaining a metal blade in hand and must retreat ever so slightly if he wants to do it in place.

is a high tier character OH WAIT HE HAS NO RESULTS SO AUTOMATIC MID TIER VOID OWAWOOO

Actually though, I've seen people put him near 10-15 and people put him in the nebulous mid-tier. When Zero came out with his "most underrated characters," there were many talking about Mega. Yet, he doesn't have many winning results (he does well in regions, but rarely wins). I'm curious what others' impressions are of him, because I have my own based on his kit and the potential I see with it, but not that many people know his kit like I or other Mega Man mains do.

 

[Antonykun]

um can you explain how and are worse than

how is customs a broken tier character

and are not mid tier, not even close; is high mid at the worst and is top 10

is top 10, debatably top 5. putting above him is basically admitting you know nothing about the game. speaking of the memelord, why the **** is he top 10?

is a high tier character OH WAIT HE HAS NO RESULTS SO AUTOMATIC MID TIER VOID OWAWOOO

is bad

is not bottom 10 wtf

where are ? i don't see any of those characters on the list

til is a low tier hero and is worse than

Swordfighter transcends tiers
I need to make better use of Swordfighter's off stage game

 

[Vipermoon]

I feel like matchups are too dynamic and scattered across the roster to have a definitive "tier list". so many low tiers match up well against high tiers (Bowser>Ness, Kirby>Sheik, etc) which makes it really difficult to say who is the best and who is the worst, and who is "viable".

I don't get why you said Bowser beats Ness. For a certainty I would use Marth when against Ness.

 

[Project Quarantine]

I don't think Sheik's KO power is F-tier, mostly because of her edgeguarding, but also I think Ftilt > Uair and tipper Dtilt > Uair are really useful KO combos. Ftilt in particular is very easy to hit with. Also Fthrow > Fair true combos until obscene percents and can kill near the ledge. Though I agree she's not GOOD at killing, probably below average because even her kill confirm moves don't always get the job done. DI can help you survive Ftilt/Dtilt > Uair and Fthrow > Fair until they stop comboing but it depends on stuff like staling and rage.

I think she's considerably better at it than characters like Bowser Jr and Zelda who have almost no useful KO combos whatsoever and very tough to land kill moves. To be fair though very few characters are at Bowser Jr's level of struggling to get KOs and Sheik, whilst being significantly better at killing than those characters, is still worse at it than most of the rest of the cast.

Bowser Jr isn't on some other realm of killing inability.

For starters, he has clown kart -> Kart escape hammer combo with a huge percent range. This kills often depending on where the opponent is in that percent range, how they DI, and what clown kart hitbox they get.

Secondly, he has some formidible edgeguarding tools including all aerials (bar uair), mechakoopa, and kart escape hammer offstage. Even the cannon ball can do some work. Down angled fsmash covers the ledge and upsmash can get ledge getups (as tweek has demonstrated). To note, his clown kart 3rd jump helps immensely with going deep and reacting to recovery options.

Other kill moves include, but are not limited to: smashes, bair, uair, and ftilt (near edge eventually).

While many of his options are situational and smash attacks are slow and/or have big ending lag, he has an arsenal of setups and read options to land kills early. I find that he beats many characters on the spectrum of killing opponenents.

 

[Shaya]

While yes, you're locked into a range of trajectories. Drifting away or towards ZSS while airdodging can get out of the trap in my experience. For some characters with bad recoveries, Bthrow>spike could be death whether or not you drift away or not, but I haven't seen it used on our local Mac yet in the 3 or so sets they've had (likely because it requires him to get grabbed with an f16 move at the edge and he can punish that haaaard).

From what people have told me / minor experience, bthrow to flip jump is a death sentence for Mac as both taking the hit and air dodging it kills him #_#

Can't seem to see what you're seeing with FAir/Fthrow/side-B/ftilt as they either hit too low of an angle to allow you to follow up without them just going under you or too laggy. For reference, I don't see any of them chaining into it more than jab combo... I'll keep my eyes out for development, but at the moment, it doesn't seem to be either as easy or as feasible to do as NAir>spike.

Ledge shenanigans. Although fair is likely low lag enough for it to be real, it's awkward in terms of trajectories, I'm always just opting for fair into more fairs and in close to the ground situations bairing out of it. I would say there's certainly an ability to combo flip jump from fair, it just is pretty finicky.

Yeah, the issue doesn't come up in follow up situations at all, but it limits the moves utility, especially as a recovery option (curse you gigantic tether!). Its ability to get out of traps is not to be underestimated though, but having little utility in neutral makes me pause when calling it the best move in the game. I still hate it though like the other amazing moves.

I will say, I prefer being above 90% against ZSS much more than I like being at 40-60%.

It doesn't limit it's utility as much as it gives it a skill requirement to use it safely/successfully. But the utility of using it as a get out of jail free card is, from all things I can think of at this very moment is unmatched. Early invincibility + massive positional displacement you can control, forward kick to shoot forward (sometimes helpful) or for ledge canceling.

It's uses in neutral are still underdeveloped, but I think it's fair for me to say it's actually broken in advantageous and disadvantageous state. It auto cancelling on landing is a pretty big thing. While it cannot offer shield pressure like Quick Attack, the unreactable movement/positions you can take with it when you then have frame 1 jabs or [often] ftilt when people are usually frightened and holding shield to avoid the kick or using dodges to try to punish the auto-footstool are petty helpful.
If you start it just after jumping you also have more control and can act before landing (aerials/jump).
In terms of neutral interactions it does help in though, it can move through a lot of character's horizontal zoning tools and punish them in their lag. Seeing as you have a lot of maneuverability, reading certain things and flip jumping and then opting to not go through with it if they didn't make the anticipated movement is a pretty cool thing.

 

[Nobie]

While we never confirmed if it's actually true or not, and I've little experience with Bowser Jr., I swear his f-smash hits more reliably now. Characters used to fall out of f-smash pretty often, but now even Level 9 CPUs (which are notoriously good for being able to DI/SDI out of things if they can) get hit by the full brunt of the attack more often than not.

 

[Shaya]

CPU's never DI out of Boost Kick, I wish they did, would help me overcome my holding forward or pressing back conundrums.

But yeah, I think Bowser Jr's fsmash hits more reliably, while not confirmed by data is all but considered fact. Similar to Falco UpSmash and Falchion Dancing Blade.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

CPU's never DI out of Boost Kick, I wish they did, would help me overcome my holding forward or pressing back conundrums.

But yeah, I think Bowser Jr's fsmash hits more reliably, while not confirmed by data is all but considered fact. Similar to Falco UpSmash and Falchion Dancing Blade.

IDK about DI but I do have a weird issue where the CPU tends to pop out of it before the final hit. Usually above me, not to the side. It's probably a spacing issue, or maybe the target having too much damage on them. Both sound plausible.

 

[Ikes]

I was experimenting with today

and i must say, seeing as his cookie cutter combo doesnt kill any more

he feels super balanced even playing him, definitely a very fair character. He fits my earlier design philosophy to a T. Good reward for good effort, and good risk.

I felt like I was putting in the appropriate amount of effort every time I netted a kill, and every time i missed/whiffed an attack, I felt like the risk was appropriate compared to what I could have gotten out of it should I have landed.

anyone else feel the same? I'm really liking how Diddy ended up, believe it or not.

for anyone who cares, Other notable characters I feel fit this philosophy very well are
among others.

I just want to ask though, is there anyone who particularly disagrees with my effort/risk/reward design philosophy? I'd like to hear why it might be wrong.

 

[DunnoBro]

The fact duck hunt has one of the easiest, safest, most reliable true combos into a spike, but that spike is so weak you get punished at even mid-percents for trying it, and it stops even frame trapping at the percents it will kill is the most depressing thing.

 

[Luco]

The fact duck hunt has one of the easiest, safest, most reliable true combos into a spike, but that spike is so weak you get punished at even mid-percents for trying it, and it stops even frame trapping at the percents it will kill is the most depressing thing.

The amount of times I've gone for a Dair --> bounce Uair and failed miserably is astounding. So much sadness. :'(

 

[Theworstmaker]

would clones be treated the same in here or are they just seen as seperate (like if someone says something about lucina does that mean the same thing for marth)

 

[Vipermoon]

CPU's never DI out of Boost Kick, I wish they did, would help me overcome my holding forward or pressing back conundrums.

But yeah, I think Bowser Jr's fsmash hits more reliably, while not confirmed by data is all but considered fact. Similar to Falco UpSmash and Falchion Dancing Blade.

We would know these things if we had a certain data dump. What ever happened to that?

 

[MVD]

Was that a Custom Tournament?

Most recent one was vanilla

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also now we're seeing Nairo consistently combo into flip jump (as the shayprophecy preordained) pretty consistently, can I start having a growing base of people agreeing that flip jump is probably the best move in the game?

Get hit, flip jump, you DI to avoid the true-combo (or get true combo'd), ZSS positional/frame advantage is still there, you get hit by something else or landing trapped.
Killing people from nairs at 30% upwards is pretty ridiculous.

But remember, this is a secret and you can't tell anyone, especially not Nintendo.

#SecretFlipJumpSociety

Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure there is an entire thread in the ZSS forums titled "Flip Jump Frame trap."

ZSS boards terribad at hiding tech imo.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Just a random question, since I don't have the dlc, is Mewtwo considered top or low tier?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mewtwo is garbage

 

[webbedspace]

4 Mewtwo and 4 Zelda are both worse relative to 4's cast than Melee Mewtwo and Melee Zelda were relative to Melee's cast. (This counterintuitive observation has less to do with their strengths and balance, and more to do with the absence of Pichu and Melee Bowser.)

 

[kackamee]

4 Mewtwo and 4 Zelda are both worse relative to 4's cast than Melee Mewtwo and Melee Zelda were relative to Melee's cast. (This counterintuitive observation has less to do with their strengths and balance, and more to do with the absence of Pichu and Melee Bowser.)

Mmm, idk if I'd agree with this. Smash 4 is appearing to be a lot more balanced than Melee in the overall roster. Mewtwo and Zelda could hardly do anything in Melee, but in this game, they can at least put up a fight.

Being one of the worst characters in this game will get you a lot further than being one of the worst in Melee I think.

 

[LightLV]

Do you think anyone here isn't aware of the problems you bring up? I don't think so.

"Official" doesn't mean correct, but it does imply some effort has gone into it. Afaik an official tier list following EVO would be a good thing, because it would overshadow all the horrible ****ing lists produced by dumb people and eventhubs and stuff like that. Oh and pro competitive player feedback isn't necessary, you don't need to be pro to understand the game. You need to be okay at it and have a lot of knowledge and insight. Pierce7D for instance wasn't a good player, but he understood the game better than any of the top players.

Yes EVO will certainly help, but it's not like the current information we have NOW (that is a compilation of all that has transpired since RELEASE) is somehow irrelevant. This is where my confusion sets in.

I don't get why people think being a top player would make you an expert. I guess it's because esports are still in their infancy.

I mean...what do you expect? People who win consistently usually have credibility in their opinions when it comes to the state of the game. More than the average player, or the one who only plays online, or the one who only plays with friends, or the one who does enter tournaments but never gets out of pools.



As for something relevant....I dont know about notable results, but Megaman players seem to perform decently well in games where I see him in local tournaments. Of course not quite as well as Falcon, Diddy, Lumalina or Mario Bros. players, but many times better than some of the other characters people place in tiers near him, like Ness and such.

I think megaman as a character falls sharply in the category of "decent but outclassed", in the sense that you have to try way harder to get powerful plays out of him than the top 5 picks, and that just kind of snuffs out his results.

 

[meleebrawler]

He's a more complete and functional character in this game than in Melee, that's for sure.
You can nitpick aspects of Mewtwo that seem rushed (weird hitboxes is the most common, but the bigger one for
me is how confusion triggers regrab immunity... were they that paranoid it could result in real chaingrabs?), but Melee
Mewtwo was far more so. He seemed to be pegged as a lightweight powerhouse in a similar vein to Zelda, but the
only things he had that could back up that archetype were his throws and Shadow Ball; his smashes were underwhelming
and shadow claw was really difficult to land outside of combos. Add to the fact two non-functional specials and a weird
hurtbox that his shield can't cover right and you have a mess.

It's like how Melee Dr. Mario was supposed to be a slower, stronger Mario but they pretty much neglected the "slower" part except for his jab. Now he does fit that archetype even if it makes him obviously worse in viability.

So even if Mewtwo's eventual spot on a tier list ends up being not far from what his spot in Melee was, you'd still be
hard pressed to call him a worse character now than in that game. But I will say this: he has a Ganon-like ability
to severely punish mistakes and get very early KOs (mainly through disable), even if he trades efficiency in that regard
for more flexibility via mobility and a projectile.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Also I think Meta Knight's f-smash should not be underestimated. Yeah, it's a read-based move, but it hits super hard, and it's nigh-unpunishable.

Just think about the idea that a character can just throw out a hard read and you often can't even retaliate if he misses.

Meta Knight's FSmash is incredible for baiting mid range because it has little to no lag. It's a lot like Ganon's up smash, except MK gets more out of it since he thrives in baiting.

 

[bc1910]

Bowser Jr isn't on some other realm of killing inability.

For starters, he has clown kart -> Kart escape hammer combo with a huge percent range. This kills often depending on where the opponent is in that percent range, how they DI, and what clown kart hitbox they get.

Secondly, he has some formidible edgeguarding tools including all aerials (bar uair), mechakoopa, and kart escape hammer offstage. Even the cannon ball can do some work. Down angled fsmash covers the ledge and upsmash can get ledge getups (as tweek has demonstrated). To note, his clown kart 3rd jump helps immensely with going deep and reacting to recovery options.

Other kill moves include, but are not limited to: smashes, bair, uair, and ftilt (near edge eventually).

While many of his options are situational and smash attacks are slow and/or have big ending lag, he has an arsenal of setups and read options to land kills early. I find that he beats many characters on the spectrum of killing opponenents.

Another realm, no, But one of the worst in the game, quite possibly. I'm surprised if you haven't heard that opinion before? I think Bowser Jr. is good (he's my main secondary after Sheik) but killing is his biggest weakness.

Kart -> Hammer can be airdodged out of earlier than you might think, and in my experience it's tough to get on a good opponent not only because they don't let themselves get hit by kart much, but also DI and airdodging can make it easy for them to avoid the hammer. Of course, you can wait until after the airdodge and hammer them then. I guess it's a 50/50 killing option. I agree it's one of his best kill setups but I don't think it's particularly good.

His edgeguarding is actually good, yes. Would be nice to see it develop.

I think his ledge trapping ability is overrated (people love to forget ledge roll and ledgedrop aerial are actually options) but still among the best in the game. My problem with it is simply the ledge being pretty safe in general in this game, yes he can trap these options but it all comes down to reading.

His killing ability is not BAD if you make the correct reads, but most of the cast can make softer reads than Bowjow and get kills for it. He can be punished quite hard for throwing out an Usmash on an incorrect read, too. I think the future of Bowjow's killing is gonna come down to his edgeguarding, but maybe his ledge trapping will get better too (Usmash is a VERY scary option, with good reactions it can definitely put in the work, it's more of a read tool right now though).

 

[Smog Frog]

can we talk about how great a move / dair is? its a spike, combo starter, oos option, has mad disjoint(he actually withdraws his legs), and is fast.

 

[migul]

Also now we're seeing Nairo consistently combo into flip jump (as the shayprophecy preordained) pretty consistently, can I start having a growing base of people agreeing that flip jump is probably the best move in the game?

Get hit, flip jump, you DI to avoid the true-combo (or get true combo'd), ZSS positional/frame advantage is still there, you get hit by something else or landing trapped.
Killing people from nairs at 30% upwards is pretty ridiculous.

But remember, this is a secret and you can't tell anyone, especially not Nintendo.

#SecretFlipJumpSociety

Quick Attack is much better, since it has a stupid amount of utility.

 

[|RK|]

I was experimenting with today

and i must say, seeing as his cookie cutter combo doesnt kill any more

he feels super balanced even playing him, definitely a very fair character. He fits my earlier design philosophy to a T. Good reward for good effort, and good risk.

I felt like I was putting in the appropriate amount of effort every time I netted a kill, and every time i missed/whiffed an attack, I felt like the risk was appropriate compared to what I could have gotten out of it should I have landed.

anyone else feel the same? I'm really liking how Diddy ended up, believe it or not.

for anyone who cares, Other notable characters I feel fit this philosophy very well are
among others.

I just want to ask though, is there anyone who particularly disagrees with my effort/risk/reward design philosophy? I'd like to hear why it might be wrong.

Kirby is super-fair. I was thinking about his terrible air/ground speed, and realized how crazy he could be if he were better. His Copy Abilities would be way more useful, for one thing. I wonder if they balanced him around that?

 

[bc1910]

Kirby is super-fair. I was thinking about his terrible air/ground speed, and realized how crazy he could be if he were better. His Copy Abilities would be way more useful, for one thing. I wonder if they balanced him around that?

I think they probably did, that and having poor throw follow-ups. His moveset and frame data are excellent and whilst he doesn't exactly lose to shield (at least not now that Dthrow deals good damage) he struggles to kill someone who uses their shield well at high percents. I still think he'd be one of the best characters in the game if he had his Brawl Fthrow, which comboed into Uair and Fair until mid-high percents.

Also Sheik is the Fairest character by far

 

[Browny]

Mewtwo is garbage

Garbage enough that a 14 y/o Mewtwo main scared Ally away from using Marth in tournament.

Mewtwos OK. Just compared to the top tiers hes not a brain-dead autopilot character with a safe, spammable approach.

Hes got some pretty devastating combos hardly anyone is utilising in tournament because you need more effort than dthrow-upair.

jab-dtilt-fair-fair is a true combo for 35% against most of the cast from low %, dair oos-fair is 27%.

Its feasible to get the enemy to 88% in 3 hits with M2 (35+27+26 shadow ball) and these arent hard to land attacks. Just like how fox mains are learning to incorporate jab locks and pivot ftilt nonsense into their game, Mewtwo mains will get those fat combos in muscle memory.

Also nair offstage to catch upb's, drag the enemy down and then combo into a footstool is something I've managed to pull off a few times now which can KO stupidly early on anyone playing around offstage.

Again, once these opportunistic combos are used more he will be a bigger threat.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Captain Falcon's Zero to Death Combo, works on (almost) EVERY CHARACTER!

Elaborate pls

edit: nvm didnt realize text is hyperlinked lol

 

[evmaxy54]

Again, once these opportunistic combos are used more he will be a bigger threat.

Well,

Until more people start to use Fox