Character Competitive Impressions

[Firefoxx]

Taking stock of the metagame in a big picture way a year after release isn't "rushing". If the patches of the future are like the Mewtwo patch, odds are they won't change perception enough to effect a tier list in a massive way. And if they do, who cares? If the 700+ pages of discussion here have proved anything, its that people love talking about the metagame. No matter how evolved it is.

 

[Noa.]

It's just difficult to really judge characters that are not appearing in tournament often. More often that not if someone doesn't know a lot about a character they just throw them into mid tier. And so few characters have enough tournament representation to accurately judge how strong they are in the current meta. In my mind our high tier seems clear enough to make an accurate representation of how we view the meta game of today. But for every character in mid tier there are people who think they're trash, they're secret good, or just meddling.

 

[bc1910]

Not saying we need a list right this second but I do not see the logic behind waiting until the patching stops to make a tier list. No other community does that. This game may not stop being patched for years, too.

Besides, only one character's commonly perceived tier position has dramatically changed as a result of a patch (Greninja). Patches will always shake up a tier list but it's unlikely that a patch will ever render a previous list irrelevant, or even mildly inaccurate.

 

[Smog Frog]

the Great / Buff of November definitely was a bigger tier movement than . simply went from undeniably top to undeniably high.

 

[wedl!!]

you could title it the GREAT BEEFY SWORDGUY patch for and the SCRAWNY BRITISH SWORDGUY patch for

i would agree that was bad prepatch and wasnt great either

 

[bc1910]

Undeniable top to maybe high maybe mid is a much bigger movement than... What, mid low to mid? Maybe low to mid. Regardless Greninja has been changed by a patch far more than any other character. Let's not forget Ike's perceived low-ness was also down to disappointment over his lack of buffs from Brawl.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Alot of characters on the lower end need buffs and tweaks lol. Falco Samus and Zelda being some examples

 

[Antonykun]

Villager's nair is RIDICULOUS ... i think it's better than Luigi's.

their strengh lies not in combo breaking (which they are relatively good at anyways) but its combo and pressure abilities

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think Robin is a good character. Sleeper high tier might be pushing it but Robin being good is the main reason why I never believed in Fire Emblem tier (although I do think Marcina and Ike probably started off mid-low and are all now solidly mid). I thought Robin was quite good before the rapid jab buff and now I'm completely sold. Arcfire activating on shields is like half the reason why I think Robin can work at high level but yeah, I don't think Robin is a MU you can autopilot unless you have a projectile that ignores arcfire. Crossup rolling is a huge thorn in that move's side but I feel as Robins get better at spacing it (God forbid they perfect run back > arcfire) that weakness will be less crippling. Robin has other strengths as well, that jab buff has been mostly ignored but it brings Robin's jab combo to almost pre-patch Little Mac levels of damage, and it's a true combo as well. Robin now has what I would class as a scary option up close when previously he had nothing.

Sheik sort of trashes Robin, though. Needles pass through arcfire, are way too quick for any variant of Thunder to do anything and Sheik can even pile on the pressure up close if she feels like it. I think Robin is the literal best example of what Dabuz was talking about, how there are lots of characters who would be viable if Sheik didn't wreck them so hard.

Any char with good mobility does not care about Robin at all. Having a roll on par with Samus does this character no favors.

 

[Ffamran]

How do the two compare, results-wise? Neither are very popular so there isn't a lot of data, but from what I've seen Palutena seems to be placing better. I mean, I haven't heard anything from Zelda lately, meanwhile Palutena just got Top 8 at a national (GOML '15)

For Pally, Aerolink and Trevonte come to mind and they represent both sides to Pally, customs and default. Aerolink places like 1st and 2nd with customs Pally while Trevonte places high, but I don't know how high with default Pally. Maybe top 15 at the lowest?

For Samus, I can only think of Xyro77 and I don't know how he places at all. With Zelda, you've got Nairo, Cosmos, and Ven with Nairo and Cosmos being the more notable ones. Cosmos was at Combo Breaker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAcU9iPJG68.

Alot of characters on the lower end need buffs and tweaks lol. Falco Samus and Zelda being some examples

You could literally revert Falco's Dash Attack and Fair to their Brawl hit frames, standing grab to Melee's, tweak the IASA frames of jab, and revert Dair to its Melee/Brawl hit frames, but make it incredibly weak as a spike and Falco could jump to mid tier instead of hovering around low-mid and low. Why? Much, much safer options even if Dair ends up incredibly weak as a spike. It don't matter since he can challenge **** below him now instead of getting juggled to death while flapping his arms trying to Nair his way out.

I'm not really sure what Samus needs other than better IASA for her jab so she can mix up quicker and safer. As for Zelda... Structurally, she's kind of messed up. One wrong move and she could jump to levels of broken or horrible. So, decreased landing lag on her Fair and Bair would be nice, stronger sour-spots would be nice too since it's kind of sad that she kicks you, you get some hitstun, and then you murder her. Ftilt is slow, but if it was stronger, it'd be a nicer move, and Utilt being able to combo better or being a kill option alongside Up Smash which can combo, well, in Brawl it did, would be cool. Not entering helpless mode during Din's Fire would be great. I don't know, just make it so her aerial Din's Fire travels half or only a third of the grounded Din's Fire, make it weaker, and there you go, she can cover her recovery and not die a slow, horrible, and sad death if she uses Din's Fire off-stage or gets windboxed. Storing a Phantom Slash would be great too, but then it would need to come out slower since a frame 1 move like that is kind of stupid.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well hows about this, after Evo (since folks like the idea) a small effort gets organized to try and get the best representatives possibloe of each character into a discussion about a potential tier list (alongsside any top players who want to participate) let folks duke it out, vote, and we get something up. I'd be more than cool managing a project like that, it really wouldn't be too terribly difficult to do.

 

[Vipermoon]

You could literally revert Falco's Dash Attack and Fair to their Brawl hit frames, standing grab to Melee's, tweak the IASA frames of jab, and revert Dair to its Melee/Brawl hit frames, but make it incredibly weak as a spike and Falco could jump to mid tier instead of hovering around low-mid and low. Why? Much, much safer options even if Dair ends up incredibly weak as a spike. It don't matter since he can challenge **** below him now instead of getting juggled to death while flapping his arms trying to Nair his way out.

I agree with your Falco changes. Though it's not like his Dash Attack still isn't good.

More changes I'd make: if a frame perfect short hop laser could end or autocancel just before landing it would be perfect for a character that prefers the air. 2 lasers or not pressing B early enough and you get landing lag. So it would be fair.

Bair should stay out a few frames longer.

And Falco's air speed should be buffed to Smash 4 Fox levels. It would still be under-average, but it isn't fair that Fox gets an air speed buff in this game and Falco is ignored. Is he not the character that likes to brag about his AIR PREFERENCE?

 

[Kofu]

I never really used but whenever I did I found myself cringing when I used FAir. Not sure what all the differences are but 's FAir actually feels usable now, especially since it LINKS. Could be wrong but it feels like at least one buff from Brawl to Smash 4.

He's still bad though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I never really used but whenever I did I found myself cringing when I used FAir. Not sure what all the differences are but 's FAir actually feels usable now, especially since it LINKS. Could be wrong but it feels like at least one buff from Brawl to Smash 4.

He's still bad though.

Fair is an excellent edgeguarding tool now thanks to the active frames, the fact that it links, and the fact that it KOs reliably. But yeah, they really screwed up Falco from then to now. Why doesn't he have air speed? He's a BIRD!

 

[Emblem Lord]

How is it "screwed up" if it's intentional?

 

[Ffamran]

I agree with your Falco changes. Though it's not like his Dash Attack still isn't good.

It's good, but it's telegraphed enough since he's slow compared to Fox and even Ganondorf. With Fox, he rushes in and you just get a boot in your face and Ganondorf? You expect a heavyweight like him to have a slow Dash Attack, but then he tackles you while getting a speed boost. Ike's Dash Attack is also telegraphed while also being pretty weak; it's frame 18 and Ike even winds up making it even more telegraphed and from testing, it kills at 225% on Mario at center stage. You're better off using Dtilt at that percent or getting a grab and D-throwing for a kill at 191% or better yet, any of his aerials. At similar frames, Ftilt, frame 15, and Dair, frame 16, kill about 100% earlier. There is like no reason to use this freaking move. If it caught ledges well, could be used for anti-air, or was much faster like frame 12, then sure, but frame 18?

If anything, Fox could have had a frame 6 Dash Attack and it wouldn't hurt him since he's fast. Sonic's Dash Attack is frame 5 which is a frame difference to Fox's and there's not much of a difference. 2 frames wouldn't either, but 4 frames and on a slower moving character? Yeah... Falco from what Shaya said, used to be able to punish quickly with Dash Attack, but now, he really can't. Falco's Dash Attack is on the point where you can powershield and grab immediately while Sonic slides through and it's difficult to react to Fox's. Falco's running speed makes it even stupider since walking is about as fast as running and Ftilt is much safer than running and Dash Attack.

More changes I'd make: if a frame perfect short hop laser could end or autocancel just before landing it would be perfect for a character that prefers the air. 2 lasers or not pressing B early enough and you get landing lag. So it would be fair.

Less end lag like with Wolf's Blaster would be nice. Auto-canceling made it way too good in Melee. Speaking of which, want to see what Fox would be like if he had his 64/Impact/Falco Blaster in Melee? Shooting quicker while covering even more distance made it clearly broken in Brawl. Lower end lag could turn it from an underwhelming projectile to a decent one. Frame perfect short hop lasers would be good in theory, but it could lock Falco to a set height.

Or, you could literally give Falco Fox's Impact Blaster, but with better hitstun, and he would already have a better projectile that can't be fired continuously.

Bair should stay out a few frames longer.

Since it's no longer a sex kick, having it linger longer could make it an even bigger commitment and as of right now, it's like Falco's lowest commitment move while having one of the highest rewards. If it was his sex kick Bair of Melee and Brawl, then sure.

And Falco's air speed should be buffed to Smash 4 Fox levels. It would still be under-average, but it isn't fair that Fox gets an air speed buff in this game and Falco is ignored. Is he not the character that likes to brag about his AIR PREFERENCE?

They had the same air speed in Melee and Brawl, but Fox's is faster now - 0.893 to 0.96 - when he could have done without it while Falco really had issues with mobility in general. It's like if you buffed Mario's air speed even more and then leave Dr. Mario's alone if not nerfing it. Gee, I wonder if Mario really needed that air speed buff when Dr. Mario's mobility is meh.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

How is it "screwed up" if it's intentional?

Because they screwed it up

 

[Ffamran]

I never really used but whenever I did I found myself cringing when I used FAir. Not sure what all the differences are but 's FAir actually feels usable now, especially since it LINKS. Could be wrong but it feels like at least one buff from Brawl to Smash 4.

He's still bad though.

Autolink angles, autolink angles, autolink angles, auto angles, auto angles. Wiki link: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Autolink_angle. From the top of my head, Falco's Fair, Ike's Aether (Ragnell spinning), Fox's Fair, and Zelda's Nair all have autolink angles which can lead to stuff like pre-patch 1.0.4? Falco being able to drag you down and spike you which was patched while Fox's wasn't, but Fox has to fastfall before the last hit connects to soft spike. Also, I believe Fox's Dair and the Pits' Nair, Fair, and Uair also have autolink angles. Anyway, it's a reason why some multi-hit moves like Zelda's Nair connects so well while Falco's Nair for example, doesn't have autolink angles, so it's easier to fall out of than his Fair or Zelda's Nair.

Brawl had autolink angles, but probably on less moves. I bet Brawl Falco's Fair didn't have it and since it was basically a reanimated Fox Fair, but with a smaller hitbox compared to Fox's since it's Falco's beak, it didn't work out... Fun fact: Falco's Fair in Brawl did 11% if it fully connects - 3% less than now - and had less active frames - from 6-35 to 12-36. It was also, twice as fast, frame 6 instead of frame 12 as of now. Anyway, it's probably why people were disappointed when they saw Fox and Falco kept their crappy Fairs, but then when they used it and saw how well they connected... Yeah.

 

[Kofu]

Autolink angles, autolink angles, autolink angles, auto angles, auto angles. Wiki link: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Autolink_angle. From the top of my head, Falco's Fair, Ike's Aether (Ragnell spinning), Fox's Fair, and Zelda's Nair all have autolink angles which can lead to stuff like pre-patch 1.0.4? Falco being able to drag you down and spike you which was patched while Fox's wasn't, but Fox has to fastfall before the last hit connects to soft spike. Also, I believe Fox's Dair and the Pits' Nair, Fair, and Uair also have autolink angles. Anyway, it's a reason why some multi-hit moves like Zelda's Nair connects so well while Falco's Nair for example, doesn't have autolink angles, so it's easier to fall out of than his Fair or Zelda's Nair.

Brawl had autolink angles, but probably on less moves. I bet Brawl Falco's Fair didn't have it and since it was basically a reanimated Fox Fair, but with a smaller hitbox compared to Fox's since it's Falco's beak, it didn't work out... Fun fact: Falco's Fair in Brawl did 11% if it fully connects - 3% less than now - and had less active frames - from 6-35 to 12-36. It was also, twice as fast, frame 6 instead of frame 12 as of now. Anyway, it's probably why people were disappointed when they saw Fox and Falco kept their crappy Fairs, but then when they used it and saw how well they connected... Yeah.

I know about autolink angles, lol. Part of the problem with Brawl Falco's FAir was the massive SDI ability in the game, too.

But hey, you can't complain too much about this change for Falco!

 

[LiteralGrill]

Umebura 16 is up on Youtube now *smashgasm*

Can't wait to see this MK people were talking about.

 

[Luco]

Well hows about this, after Evo (since folks like the idea) a small effort gets organized to try and get the best representatives possibloe of each character into a discussion about a potential tier list (alongsside any top players who want to participate) let folks duke it out, vote, and we get something up. I'd be more than cool managing a project like that, it really wouldn't be too terribly difficult to do.

Yes please; I think we need some sort of active party that can focus their efforts on a MU chart/Tier list/something. If I'm around then (gonna be a bit inactive soon until July most likely) I'd love to help out. =)

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'm not really sure what Samus needs other than better IASA for her jab so she can mix up quicker and safer.

The grab. Samus needs either better recovery, better startup, or, preferably both. A dysfunctional grab - she cannot shield grab - and a dysfunctional jab is an awful thing to deal with.
Homing missiles need to be slower and have less cooldown to allow for actual setups. Right now they are at perfectly wrong speed and firing homing missiles - an ICONIC move - is candidate for worst projectile in the game. If not worst move in the entire game.
The other major issue is priority. It is neither fair nor appropriate to have hurtboxes extend before, during and after her moves with tiny little hitboxes attached to them. When you compare to some of the disjointed, abusive crap that other characters can safely spam it is absolutely unfair and amazing it got out of beta testing let alone the 2nd patch of the game (and the 2nd patch nerfed Samus' ftilt to top it off).
Other things like game wide no-teching grounded meteors would help.

 

[Nu~]

Well hows about this, after Evo (since folks like the idea) a small effort gets organized to try and get the best representatives possibloe of each character into a discussion about a potential tier list (alongsside any top players who want to participate) let folks duke it out, vote, and we get something up. I'd be more than cool managing a project like that, it really wouldn't be too terribly difficult to do.

I like that. I like that idea a lot actually.
It may be kind of hard for the character mains that have little representation however.

 

[Superbat]

Today / the past weekend should be noted as the rise of Meta Knight.

Mk's been on a rise in general. A few weeks ago Ito also beat 6wx's Custom Sonic. (Pretty huge since Sonic kinda bodies us) Another top MK, Katakiri, got top 5 in GOML (faulty memory on this but i'm like 99% sure he got top 5) Also you gotta give Salena some credit @ warionumbah2 . He went last stock, last hit with Nietono. (first game) That should be an accomplishment on its own for holding his own against a top 5 player in apex. (his mk definitely isnt the best tho. lol)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well hows about this, after Evo (since folks like the idea) a small effort gets organized to try and get the best representatives possibloe of each character into a discussion about a potential tier list (alongsside any top players who want to participate) let folks duke it out, vote, and we get something up. I'd be more than cool managing a project like that, it really wouldn't be too terribly difficult to do.

It's not that people "like the idea" of discussing tier lists after that. It's just one of the last bigger tournaments that'll be an international with 2 stocks customs on until another is announced maybe, probably not, I hope so.
After that I'm sure more and more places are gonna fluctuate with their rulesets and move to 3 stocks 8 minutes and hopefully expand on the stage list a bit more to try out new stages since there's no big tournaments yet on the scale of EVO APEX etc.

Otherwise, best representatives being picked just means have the Smash 4 BR made and have people do apps run by the staff and not you Capps. People already voiced their distaste before many many months back on your idea of just randomly starting a group up and inviting people, nobody wanted that.
Social groups/forums (whatever you people wanna call it) is too much of a cluster**** since the move years back to use.


Making a tier list or anything is incredibly difficult, dunno why you think it wouldn't be too hard when you gotta factor in say 40+ different opinions and 53 other characters (possibly more), discuss if focus on custom off only, or make both custom on/off.
So essentially around 90ish different tierlists from people. BBR's last project the v3 MU chart was a big mess when that was done.

That's still a big pet peeve of mine, people make their tierlists but add Mii brawler to like top 3/5 but then forget the other 51 characters exist if they're gonna be adding him up there as if customs is on. Why isn't palu DK Wft mii swordfighter etc. higher?
Anyways, it'd be total chaos for just you alone with no power in a scrunched up messy social group to do it all than it would be done by people who've done the tier list discussions and moderating things during the serious convos for half a decade in sub-forums (that're much easier to monitor and go back too).

 

[warionumbah2]

Mk's been on a rise in general. A few weeks ago Ito also beat 6wx's Custom Sonic. (Pretty huge since Sonic kinda bodies us) Another top MK, Katakiri, got top 5 in GOML (faulty memory on this but i'm like 99% sure he got top 5) Also you gotta give Salena some credit @ warionumbah2 . He went last stock, last hit with Nietono. (first game) That should be an accomplishment on its own for holding his own against a top 5 player in apex. (his mk definitely isnt the best tho. lol)

Katakiri got 5th i think Ally and M2K were there as well, Tech got something like 17th. It was out of 120 participants i think. Ito got 2nd losing to 6wx then got 1st which was the one where he beat 6wx, he also won doubles without losing. Then recently he once again went all MK and won the tournament without dropping a game lol. Fye getting 5th in a custom tourney a week ago and i remember seeing some new MK get to winners semi's not too sure. Results are coming out of nowhere.

I did give him credit for getting 4th. results are results i can't say anything about that. But there was no DA into nado on Fox for free 30%, no tornado ledge coverage, went for 2 capes on Rosalina when this move isn't safe on block at all when he could've landed on her and nado'd her shield as a mix up. There was also no airdgodge baiting, sour hit DA at around 70-80% FH and wait for the airodge then 2nd jump Uair into Shuttle loop if they don't throw out a move Uair them anyway. Sex kicks lose to uair because disjoint which is another plus. Can kill below 100 from that.

He doesn't really bait tbh, short hopping with MK is asking fast chars like Fox to mess him up. What is MK gonna throw out after a short hop? Guess i was expecting some Japanese Ito to come from the shadows, the MKs in the US are developing faster and actually walk in neutral to bait people(well at least starting to). He's doing this well already when there's so much room to grow, all he has to do is embrace the art of camping slow characters. Sadly he was on BF against Luigi and he didn't get a stock lead in game 2.

 

[Ulevo]

Yeah, Meta Knight's totally low tier.

 

[wedl!!]

getting results? great! now need to get results so people who base tier lists purely off of results will believe they're super good instead of lumping them in the inescapable black hole of mid tier

while we're on the subject; https://twitter.com/ZeRoSSB/status/607255241034055680

 

[LiteralGrill]

Otherwise, best representatives being picked just means have the Smash 4 BR made and have people do apps run by the staff and not you Capps. People already voiced their distaste before many many months back on your idea of just randomly starting a group up and inviting people, nobody wanted that.
Social groups/forums (whatever you people wanna call it) is too much of a cluster**** since the move years back to use.

This smash 4 rules stuff is ridiculous.
Think it's time to bring back the Smashboards BR so there is some sense of org

— Chris Brown (@4Chris_Brown) June 1, 2015

Yeah, I could ask about making sure this is done and ready and help get it going and organized. It's not like I intended to just say "hey, who all wants to vote lol"and make a group, I already got the idea folks didn't really like it. But yeah, since I have a ton of time on my hands tallying up results from voting and all that and making sure things stayed on topic would be easy on my end. Most folks have jobs and don't have 16+ hours a day to just kinda sit and watch things, it's an advantage I have.

Making a tier list or anything is incredibly difficult, dunno why you think it wouldn't be too hard when you gotta factor in say 40+ different opinions and 53 other characters (possibly more), discuss if focus on custom off only, or make both custom on/off.
So essentially around 90ish different tierlists from people. BBR's last project the v3 MU chart was a big mess when that was done.

I get it has challenges, I had to try and organize smaller efforts back in the PSASBR community (definitely not as many people, around 30ish) but it's not impossible either. Getting the results from all of those people and averaging what they all thought together isn't too difficult, since I'm not asking for an MU chart it'd not be as bad either. Though the vanilla vs custom off vs having both deal will be interesting to deal with I agree.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well good to know AZ sees the light that a Smash 4 BR is sorta needed.

 

[Ikes]

But a tier list doesn't have to be the most accurate thing in the world: We have this perception that we have to know everything about every characters' level of viability before we can construct a tier list and I don't think that has to be the case. Brawl had it's first tier list about a year after its release, and we're not too far from approaching that point with Smash 4. I like having a tier list because then people can argue over it and its placements and we can construct new tier lists every 6 months to rectify any serious issues we have with said list. It presents something to the wider FGC as the face of our meta-game, and I'm finding conversations in this thread to be tiring because we can only really talk about characters as being 'high tier' or 'mid tier' and don't really talk about placements within those tiers. I think a tier list would really help begin to solidify our ideas, even if we run the risk of it being reasonably inaccurate on its first and/or second versions.

I agree that the meta should be allowed to evolve a little more, but to be honest I think after EVO we should really begin to look at how we can create a list and the best evidence and theory possible to make one.

OR even, instead of starting work on a tier list, we could start a MU chart project which focuses on getting character boards to do discussions with other character boards and formulating a chart based off these ideals. I mean, each character board at this stage already has a good idea of which MUs they win and don't, and which characters hard counter them and which ones they're disadvantaged against; these conversations are already beginning to happen, so it would just be encouraging the boards to continue and make their discussions as 'official' as they can be. In fact I think I like this idea more.

Anyway, I think EVO needs to be the stepping point for us, for... something. Creating a tier list, creating a (transparent) front-room, creating a MU chart... Like I honestly think we should try to band something together after EVO and get something started. I remember way back when people were calling for projects to be started after Apex, and I only worry our inaction will become the norm if we continue to say 'let it wait, let the meta develop, it's only been x amount of time', y'know?

I feel like matchups are too dynamic and scattered across the roster to have a definitive "tier list". so many low tiers match up well against high tiers (Bowser>Ness, Kirby>Sheik, etc) which makes it really difficult to say who is the best and who is the worst, and who is "viable".

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well good to know AZ sees the light that a Smash 4 BR is sorta needed.

Agreed, literally just sent a message to offer help and mention how folks in here (and some other places) have said they'd like to see a tier list in the works after Evo. Let's hope something awesome happens!

Not to try and keep on topic with an epic transition, most people know that Melee's tier list is being redone right now, so I wanna use their previous tier list for a thought experiment in here. From the Smash wiki:

The MBR decided to organize the characters into more general categories instead of rigid tiers. The S tier consists of characters who are generally always tournament viable and can consistently place high in significant tournaments. The A tier consists of semi-viable characters who can place high in very competent hands, but have significant disadvantages that keep them from consistently placing high in significant tournaments. The B tier consists of characters who may have situational use, but are generally not viable for tournament use and will probably never place high when used alone, even in minor tournaments. Lastly, the F tier consists of characters who are never viable in tournament play.

I always really liked these parameters; whenever I discuss the word "viable" I usually looked at S and A kinds of levels. So I'd be curious to see where people would place the characters in the game using these specific parameters. Anyone wanna take a stab at it? (P.S. you don't have to have characters perfectly ordered within the tiers either)

 

[Hippieslayer]

The idea of an "OFFICIAL" tier list is almost just as silly as the idea that we have to wait 2-4 years to make one. We've had a good grasp on who's worth playing competitively and who isnt for the majority of Smash 4's current lifetime at this point. Unless someone were to program a computer to execute every character with the most optimal path of play, frame perfect, with the best possible decision making at every turn, there will never be a tier list that describes which one character is factually better than another. Unless we're playing brawl and Metaknight exists.

Until then, a tier list based on compiled tournament results and pro competitive player feedback is about as factual as you could possibly get.

Go to your respective forums, learn how crappy your matchups are, and pray Sakurai cares about them as much as you do.

Do you think anyone here isn't aware of the problems you bring up? I don't think so.

"Official" doesn't mean correct, but it does imply some effort has gone into it. Afaik an official tier list following EVO would be a good thing, because it would overshadow all the horrible ****ing lists produced by dumb people and eventhubs and stuff like that. Oh and pro competitive player feedback isn't necessary, you don't need to be pro to understand the game. You need to be okay at it and have a lot of knowledge and insight. Pierce7D for instance wasn't a good player, but he understood the game better than any of the top players.

I don't get why people think being a top player would make you an expert. I guess it's because esports are still in their infancy.

 

[Aquamentii]

I have a general tier list. There might be one or two characters out of place, and the specific order within tiers is not accurate, but here goes:
MY Smash tier list:
S(broken/top): Sheik, Mii Brawler(kinda gimmicky but it works)

A(top 5/10 candidates): Rosalina, Ness(with customs, S tier), Luigi, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Captain Falcon

B(High): Pikachu, Olimar, Lucario, Mario, Fox

C(Good): Pit/Dark Pit, Villager(with customs, A tier), Game&Watch, Greninja, Toon Link, Link, Peach, Rob, Bowser, PacMan, Falco, Marth, Duck Hunt, Ganondorf

D(Average/Poor): Shulk, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Donkey Kong(with customs, A tier), Meta Knight, Megaman, Robin, Mii Gunner, Ike, Bowser Jr.

E(Bottom 5/10 candidates):Falco, Kirby, Palutena(with customs, C tier) , Samus, King Dedede, Zelda, Doctor Mario, Little Mac

 

[Nu~]

I have a general tier list. There might be one or two characters out of place, and the specific order within tiers is not accurate, but here goes:
MY Smash tier list:
S(broken/top): Sheik, Mii Brawler(kinda gimmicky but it works)

A(top 5/10 candidates): Rosalina, Ness(with customs, S tier), Luigi, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Captain Falcon

B(High): Pikachu, Olimar, Lucario, Mario, Fox

C(Good): Pit/Dark Pit, Villager(with customs, A tier), Game&Watch, Greninja, Toon Link, Link, Peach, Rob, Bowser, PacMan, Falco, Marth, Duck Hunt, Ganondorf

D(Average/Poor): Shulk, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Donkey Kong(with customs, A tier), Meta Knight, Megaman, Robin, Mii Gunner, Ike, Bowser Jr.

E(Bottom 5/10 candidates):Falco, Kirby, Palutena(with customs, C tier) , Samus, King Dedede, Zelda, Doctor Mario, Little Mac

Wow.
Um...I'm just going to start with mega man. Why do you think he's "average/poor"?

 

[Aquamentii]

Wow.
Um...I'm just going to start with mega man. Why do you think he's "average/poor"?

I don't see that many results with Megaman is all. Several 'poor' characters on my list like Megaman or Zelda are my not seeing results with them and/or not having played them that much. He has some power, but not any easy setups into strong moves whereas Mii Brawler can Dthrow to upB and kill you at 40%

 

[PUK]

I have a general tier list. There might be one or two characters out of place, and the specific order within tiers is not accurate, but here goes:
MY Smash tier list:
S(broken/top): Sheik, Mii Brawler(kinda gimmicky but it works)

A(top 5/10 candidates): Rosalina, Ness(with customs, S tier)what?, Luigi, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Captain Falcon Falcon is B tier

B(High): Pikachu Pikachu is A tier, Olimar, Lucario C, maybe D, Mario, Fox A tier too

C(Good): Pit/Dark Pit, Villager(with customs, A tier), Game&Watch, Greninja, Toon Link, Link, Peach, Rob, Bowser what?, PacMan, Falco, Marth, Duck Hunt, Ganondorf

D(Average/Poor): Shulk, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Donkey Kong(with customs, A tier), Meta Knight ridiculous, Megaman lol, Robin, Mii Gunner, Ike not at all, Bowser Jr.

E(Bottom 5/10 candidates):Falco no and he is in C too lol, Kirby the worst placement, Palutena(with customs,B tier) , Samus, King Dedede, Zelda, Doctor Mario, Little Mac at least D, maybe C

 

[Nabbitnator]

I have a general tier list. There might be one or two characters out of place, and the specific order within tiers is not accurate, but here goes:
MY Smash tier list:
S(broken/top): Sheik, Mii Brawler(kinda gimmicky but it works)

A(top 5/10 candidates): Rosalina, Ness(with customs, S tier), Luigi, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Captain Falcon

B(High): Pikachu, Olimar, Lucario, Mario, Fox

C(Good): Pit/Dark Pit, Villager(with customs, A tier), Game&Watch, Greninja, Toon Link, Link, Peach, Rob, Bowser, PacMan, Falco, Marth, Duck Hunt, Ganondorf

D(Average/Poor): Shulk, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Donkey Kong(with customs, A tier), Meta Knight, Megaman, Robin, Mii Gunner, Ike, Bowser Jr.

E(Bottom 5/10 candidates):Falco, Kirby, Palutena(with customs, C tier) , Samus, King Dedede, Zelda, Doctor Mario, Little Mac

Excuse me can you tell me how Custom's ness is S tier?

 

[Thinkaman]

TIL Ness has great customs, Villager is mid-tier, Falco is mid-tier and bottom tier, Meta Knight and Mega Man are poor, and Little Mac is the worst character in the game.

I feel like this list is pretty accurate for November of 2014, though.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I feel like matchups are too dynamic and scattered across the roster to have a definitive "tier list". so many low tiers match up well against high tiers (Bowser>Ness, Kirby>Sheik, etc) which makes it really difficult to say who is the best and who is the worst, and who is "viable".

does not beat , just Kirby is one of the few characters who doesn't get rekt by her neutral.

Edit: Also I would like to hear about current situation in the meta