Character Competitive Impressions

[NachoOfCheese]

Lightning Kicks > Falcon Knee
Just saying.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Mii Brawler relies almost exclusively on Heli Kick. Once setups stop working, it's up to the opponent to screw up to land it.

Other than that, Brawler really only has hard reads with Usmash and Dair. If you avoid the grab at the early percents and recover low, you can live to 160% against Brawler rather effortlessly.

I think dthrow->HK's sweet-range is 0% - 70% though (kills after 40%), so outlasting is a challenge.

 

[Spinosaurus]

so where's a smash 4 height chart?

ive looked up some but they're all canonical height charts and dont pertain to the game whatsoever and it's annoying me

There's a rough one in the academy sub forum. Search function is your friend.
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/

 

[Big-Cat]

She is full of questionable design decisions i just don't get. And the best part is how Sakurai made that funny joke where they determined she was the best character back during that E3 tournament. Half of me wishes they'd just take current ZSS, reskin her into her Varia suit, and change her B moves around. Then they can just make ZSS a Roy/Dr. Mario with different specials and I wont have to cry so much about how bad Samus is.

Then there's Zelda, i dont know why it's so hard to make her good. She's free of being a shiek activator with another whole B move to boot and she's terrible for it.

A good friend of mine has a very good Zelda. He plays her very patiently which is where she shines. Just don't try to rush with her. Same goes for Samus.

Of course, being patient is impossible in this community.

 

[Smog Frog]

if people in smash 4 had no patience luma(is there an emote for this?), , , , ,, would all be considered atrocious. its just and are so limited they cant pull off a coherent gameplan.

 

[LightLV]

So, Zelda. What do we think of her general level of balance? I must say that considering she's quite good in all game modes besides 1v1 (Din's is a nightmare in FFA and we know she works well in teams) she's in a bit of a tricky situation balance-wise. 1v1 isn't the only mode this game is built for. I wonder how she could be made better in 1v1 without making her too strong elsewhere? Seems weird to be talking about the risks of making Zelda too strong, one of the series' all-time weakest characters, but it might be something they consider when they look at Zelda's balance.

Her general level of balance seems to be hovering somewhere slightly below "abysmal" according to general consensus. She just doesn't have much of anything going for her, her hitboxes suck, all of her specials suck and IIRC they actually nerfed one in the last patch, just incase anyone was taking her seriously. She's probably the worst zoning character who is supposed to resemble a zoning character, she's light and fluffy and made of cotton candy and despite giving some kill power to her UpB (whatever) they removed most of the practical motion from it, so she can't even do fun stuff with it like Palu can.

Wild guess and from a few local matches ive played with her, she probably fares much better in 2v2 than she could ever hope to perform in 1v1, but that's probably just because i was getting carried. I dunno.

She is in very, very little danger of being considered too good for anything

A good friend of mine has a very good Zelda. He plays her very patiently which is where she shines. Just don't try to rush with her. Same goes for Samus.

Of course, being patient is impossible in this community.

I don't know a single Zelda player who doesn't play entirely defensive. Probably because thats all she really can do.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Let me just say losing to a Zelda is appalling

 

[Thinkaman]

Zelda isn't a terrible character except in relative terms. (Yes, she is the worst imo.) Like she has decent stuff and has lots of KO threat; many of the same sentiment about how Ganondorf "can't be that bad because he is always one mistake away from winning" actually applies to Zelda too. Don't get me wrong, Ganon is clearly a better character, but Zelda has an invincible reflector and robust recovery--it's not all tears and sadness.

 

[LightLV]

DOES Nayru's love still have invincibility? If so, she deserves another award for worse invincibility move, because it trades horrifically. In fact it's not uncommon for me to see people get hit out of the move with the blue diamond graphic appearing but never even doing anything.

 

[Big-Cat]

if people in smash 4 had no patience luma(is there an emote for this?), , , , ,, would all be considered atrocious. its just and are so limited they cant pull off a coherent gameplan.

Your examples have range and mobility. Samus and Zelda don't have the mobility. In fact, they make up for that with their ability to cover the place with projectiles. Non grabbable ones in fact.

Inb4mobilityrulesall

 

[Ikes]

So I've heard people use the "no nerfs" argument here a lot lately and i want to say why that's a bad argument

the problem with the "no nerfs" argument is that it creates this situation where everyone has cheese moves, like kong cyclone and sheik's needles, rather than everyone having balanced moves that require fair effort for fair reward, and if missed, fair risk.

but buffing everyone instead of setting every character to this standard only serves to make the issue more obvious and in need of fixing.

Kong cyclone for example, isn't OP, but rather has very little risk for how high of reward it yields and how low effort it is to use.

sheik's needles are a ridiculously good overall utility for zoning, spacing, combos, camping, etc etc and it only asks that you idly charge them over the course of a couple seconds, which isn't even a big deal since you can charge each one individually at any time. it has so many rewards to offer for how little effort it is to use and how low risk it is due to low ending lag.

and bringing every other character to this level we can assume would balance the game but would instead serve to bring this low effort high reward playstyle to every character, which is entirely unhealthy for a competitive environment.

To fix this issue, all that's needed is buffing and nerfing where appropriate.
there shouldn't be a solely "no buffs" or "no nerfs" situation or mindset because both of those are flawed.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Pac-Man would be the worst character.

...well, maybe not the worst, but bottom
5 at best. Most of bad grab characters would be royally screwed over without their specials.

I know this isn't the optimal discussion, but I think Bowser Jr or Samus would be the worst because Bj relies on specials often, and Samus is bad AND used a lot of specials

Your examples have range and mobility. Samus and Zelda don't have the mobility. In fact, they make up for that with their ability to cover the place with projectiles. Non grabbable ones in fact.

Inb4mobilityrulesall

Remember that Samus actually boasts decent air mobility, even though her fall speed and ground speed and ground speed are bad. She really isn't better than anyone at anything in general.

 

[PUK]

DOES Nayru's love still have invincibility? If so, she deserves another award for worse invincibility move, because it trades horrifically. In fact it's not uncommon for me to see people get hit out of the move with the blue diamond graphic appearing but never even doing anything.

They sucks at spacing the move.
It's invincible for 7 frames, then hitboxes appear. But there is delay between hitboxes, allowing you to hit zelda.

 

[Luco]

if people in smash 4 had no patience luma(is there an emote for this?), , , , ,, would all be considered atrocious. its just and are so limited they cant pull off a coherent gameplan.

Gonna be totally honest, 6 out of the 7 characters you just listed ( would have worked just as well but there is an emote for Luma I think) ARE considered top or high tier, and the other one probably isn't very far lower. So are we really that patient?

 

[|RK|]

I actually really want to see the Samus boards get the results. It'd be great to see.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So I've heard people use the "no nerfs" argument here a lot lately and i want to say why that's a bad argument

the problem with the "no nerfs" argument is that it creates this situation where everyone has cheese moves, like kong cyclone and sheik's needles, rather than everyone having balanced moves that require fair effort for fair reward, and if missed, fair risk.

but buffing everyone instead of setting every character to this standard only serves to make the issue more obvious and in need of fixing.

Kong cyclone for example, isn't OP, but rather has very little risk for how high of reward it yields and how low effort it is to use.

sheik's needles are a ridiculously good overall utility for zoning, spacing, combos, camping, etc etc and it only asks that you idly charge them over the course of a couple seconds, which isn't even a big deal since you can charge each one individually at any time. it has so many rewards to offer for how little effort it is to use and how low risk it is due to low ending lag.

and bringing every other character to this level we can assume would balance
the game but would instead serve to bring this low effort high reward playstyle to every character, which is entirely unhealthy for a competitive environment.

To fix this issue, all that's needed is buffing and nerfing where appropriate.
there shouldn't be a solely "no buffs" or "no nerfs" situation or mindset because both of those are flawed.

Fair point, I'd say.
On the other hand, Melee.
Melee is nothing but cheese (5% kills with rest, 0-deaths with Ice Climbers, Shine existing, Sheik invalidating half the cast with her grab, etc.) and I'd say that game has been pretty successful competitively.
HOWEVER, this game is the first Smash with a usable online mode, so character balance for the casual audience is gonna take priority. As a result, balance patches exist.
Seriously do you guys even remember how ridiculous 1.0 Sheik was? Up air killed so early, Bair killed early, needles were even MORE polarizing, and Fair did like 8% or something. Now tell me that a community that can't handle a single kill setup existing would've been able to deal with that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Jesus Christ, THANK YOU.

So, Zelda. What do we think of her general level of balance? I must say that considering she's quite good in all game modes besides 1v1 (Din's is a nightmare in FFA and we know she works well in teams) she's in a bit of a tricky situation balance-wise. 1v1 isn't the only mode this game is built for. I wonder how she could be made better in 1v1 without making her too strong elsewhere? Seems weird to be talking about the risks of making Zelda too strong, one of the series' all-time weakest characters, but it might be something they consider when they look at Zelda's balance.

The best things she has going for her are Nayru's Love and Farore's Wind. One is a reflector and decent GTFO option while the other is (I think) the longest ranged teleport in the game and lets her escape a lot of situations and reset to neutral. The problem is that as far as I know her neutral is complete bootycheeks. I mean, on the surface she looks like a weird mix of "light" and "defensive" which aren't words that normally work together but on the other hand Rosalina is a thing. But then 4/5 of her aerials have sweetspots that kill, which suggests offense maybe? Unless they intended her to use them as powerful one-hit punishes or maybe come out on top of trades or something. Not to mention that neither of her projectiles command any real sort of respect except in very specific situations maybe. Mostly edgeguards. (Fun fact: The Phantom counts as a projectile and can be reflected, Pocketed, or nullified by Gravitational Pull. Hilarity.)

So we're left with a slow, light character who can't put up an effective defense, can't really pressure for offense, and whose best trait is the ability to quickly escape once hit. I have no idea what to make of it.

For those that actually put work into Zelda, what would she need to have a cohesive gameplan?

 

[DunnoBro]

Honestly after playing kong cyclone so much, I really feel like custom DK still isn't much of a threat unless your character has specific issues against it or you just don't know how to deal with it. (Luigi's lack of traction makes it a +1 for DK if he uses it anywhere near luigi because it tends to drag him into very disadvantageous positions, even if it doesn't hit him... this goes for airdodging out too so you can legitimately spam it in this matchup )

The main boon is that DK can't really be killed via edgeguards anymore, and has a more potent edgeguard/pressure game. But his neutral's still ass, his disadvantaged state is still ass, and he's total combo fodder and in general has to make a comeback to win against good characters.

Average joe has been having a lot of trouble lately now that people are learning to deal with it.

I'll be very surprised if I see any DKs in top 16 at EVO, aside from DKwill (And no offense to him, but I'm still iffy) Villager similarly, I think he's overall more viable but it's just his lack of popularity and the fact he has all these soft counters that make him unwieldy.

I can see mii brawler making a splash, but mostly due to the high level of unfamiliarity surrounding the character as a whole. I think he's a fine character, just really gimmicky. The fact a top player like ESAM still DI'd the dthrow so ridiculously poorly for it to kill him at such a ridiculous percent should be proof enough of that.

People also REALLY need to understand smashville is a super janky stage when fighting against mii brawler.

 

[Gawain]

if people in smash 4 had no patience luma(is there an emote for this?), , , , ,, would all be considered atrocious. its just and are so limited they cant pull off a coherent gameplan.

Sonic and Sheik? Patience? They're the characters that love to control the pace of the match. They're one of the few characters that have lots of safe options and can afford to make an approach.

 

[Smog Frog]

Sonic and Sheik? Patience? They're the characters that love to control the pace of the match. They're one of the few characters that have lots of safe options and can afford to make an approach.

patience as in, they grind the match to a halt in order to expose openings. there is a certain patience.

 

[Shaya]

I think Zelda is better than people give credit for. A general lack of "new blood" in their player base to push her forward seems at least a feasible explanation.

She's very slow paced, as in, she needs to force a slow pace a lot of the time. However, having nearly all of her attacks as transcended priority, thrown in with a relatively fast start up transcended and invincible reflector gives her some niche in this game; we didn't really think about it much in Brawl on Zelda, but MK had transcended moves, he likely still wishes he had it.

Although a bit silly to say, if you've played against some Zelda amiibos, you can kinda gather what Zelda could be doing to people; essentially sweetspotting kicks in tight quarters like you'd expect a godlike Jigglypuff player to do similar with Rest. I know it's a bit of a stretch to think of it like this, but it's weighing "unreliability" against "high skill based win button".

Characters without disjoints nor solid camp tools vs her reflector can definitely have a hard time. She may seem to go poorly in attrition, but her reliable confirms, diversity of positions she can be in to punish extending limbs are... strong. I personally think Samus and customs off Palutena can't really make much claim to be better than her. I genuinely think Jiggly is worse too.

She's likely the least pick-up and play character in the entire cast... maybe Bowser Jr or Greninja are more disorientating on average (still personal opinion). But when I think of what an opponent can do to a Zelda just walking towards you, with tons of reactive buttons she can throw out to beat a lot of character's advances (dash attack)... forgive me for the comparison but it kinda reminds me of the theory behind Luigi in Brawl.

If you have a certain threshold of reaction speed, I think you can make Zelda look very competitive with many characters in the cast. Ever been power shield forward tilted by her and died at around 90%? That's pretty scary.

 

[Smog Frog]

please explain how is worse than . having super strong kill moves is one thing, have various setups into them is another.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I agree that the distinction between Palutena and Mii Fighter move options is semantic and trivial.

However, this only underlines, in giant bold letters, that this is all a menu issue.

If there was just a reasonable menu GUI on the CSS for easily selecting move options (with no silly unlocking), no one would ever be having this conversation.

This single observation undermines the entire """debate""".

Yeah but people don't care about making sense, they care about finding pretty words that sound enough like they make sense to make you feel like they do owing to the fact they function as an outlet for your emotions.

God this custom debate is a great source of misanthropy. So much stuff gets taken seriously which should not.

These menu arguments are just appeals to authority, a very classic fallacy commonly employed by people who can't think for themselves. Let Sakurai decide the rules of competitive smash because at least then we don't have to make any decisions on our own and if by chance we have then we shall resort to asking ourselves "Well what did Sakurai intend? What would he say if he were here now?". That seems to be the motto for most people in the custom debate. And all of it to disguise that what it really is all about is what Sirlin cleverly coined "cocaine logic", people don't like **** which makes it harder for them to win.

I find myself wondering is this hermeunetics or competitive gaming?

 

[thehard]

The desire for patches with "only buffs" is a pretty funny power fantasy IMO, it's the same line of thinking where people want to be able to confirm a 90% combo off a single hit, and Dedede-dash attack shields and have enough shieldstun to not be punished for it

Can you believe we had people clamoring to make everyone pre-patch Diddy rather than to nerf him? Or that people have actually shouted down the nerfs because they make the game "slower"?

Which is another thing that bugs me. Making the game slower is often a good thing, as it allows for more player interactions and more depth (more creativity in closing stocks usually) in exchange for a slightly slower overall match time. (Unless you consider that people not being afraid of floor-level Diddy up-air kills can indeed make games FASTER...)

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, Zelda does have the strongest two aerials in the game, which are on frame 6 and 9 respectively.

Like, we (sort of rightfully) complain about Luigi bair, but Zelda bair is on a whole 'nother level. (Yes, you have to sweetspot it, thank you for that stunning insight.)

Add in up-b elevator kills at absurdly low %s, and you already have a baseline for a character you can't dismiss.

I feel the need to qualify why Zelda is so amazing in teams:

• Din's Fire is a flexible, harsh, cross-stage punish against opponents who are committed to any action other than avoiding/blocking it.
• Din's Fire forces opponents to take an action to avoid it, but the mechanics mean Zelda herself cannot capitalize on this herself in any way.
• Din's Fire is one of the only projectiles in the game that can go through an ally safely.
• Phantom... is the other one.
• Phantom is actually an incredible move with the huge-but-singular weakness of "just jump over it and kick Zelda in the face." If an ally can prevent that one weakness...
• Phantom otherwise forces a defensive action, which (like Din's Fire) Zelda herself cannot usually capitalize on. But the ally who was standing in front of Zelda, in the blind spot...
• Din's is absorb-able but not pocket-able. Phantom is pocket-able but not absorb-able. Zelda works with or against any team composition.
• Toes are magnitudes easier to land in teams, including out of allied grabs and throws. Uair as well.
• Farore's allows Zelda to teleport anywhere on the stage and KO a distracted, pressured, or comboed opponent at any time.
• Farore's also allows Zelda to elect, at will, to Be Somewhere Else. Even from shield!
• She has a bi-directional reflector, with hitboxes and invincibility frames.
• She also has a f5 d-smash and a long-duraction f9 u-smash. These "get off me" moves that emphasize utility over reward are disproportionately higher value when there are more opponents, and the goal is merely to disengage and survive.

There isn't really a single character in the game who is a bad teammate with Zelda, given the breadth of her tools.

 

[LimitCrown]

every character is referred to as their whole name, but Miis are just "Mii" in the menu and victory screen.

why is this?

Because every mii is an individualized custom character

IT IS IN THEIR NATURE TO BE CUSTOM

to argue otherwise is silly, like saying there should be a default moveset and size on Mortal Kombat: Armageddon (maybe not the most apt comparison but you get the idea)

No. It is because that is technically the basic name of the Mii Fighters. That name is what appears on the Character Select Screen for those characters, and it is the name that the announcer always uses. Besides, the announcer can't make a voice clip for every potential name that a Mii can have.

I would like someone to explain why they think that the Mii Fighters each being able to use all 12 of their custom moves in tournaments that prohibit them in contrast to every single other character, which can only use their defaults, is obviously not giving them special treatment (without using the excuse that each possible one is a unique character when they use three templates and the game recognizes those three types as their own character, not every single Mii Fighter).

Also, it is not difficult to standardize the Miis for competitive play in customs-off tournaments when you have six Guest Miis to use and you don't need to change anything about the fighters once they're created because their defaults are automatically selected. There is no excuse for why this can't or shouldn't be done besides people claiming that it is "unfair" to Mii Fighter mains.

 

[FullMoon]

I play one of the best Zelda players I've seen on the ladder often to the point of rivalry and believe me fighting against a Zelda player that can consistently land lightning kicks even in wi-fi lag is a very scary thing

Zelda might not have the most optimal of movesets, but when she can very easily kill you at 80% or maybe lower with a single hit, snipe you with Farore's Wind if you get predictable all the while having one of the best recoveries, she can be pretty damn intimidating.

I don't believe Zelda to be secret high tier or anything, but she does have ridiculous power behind her even if most of those are hidden behind sweetspots, find someone who can land them consistently and suddenly she's a very real threat. I do agree that she's probably one of the hardest characters to master because of that but man nothing like taking a way a stock away from Zelda and thinking you have the advantage just to get kicked near the ledge almost imediatelly afterwards and die at 70%.

Underestimate the bearer of wisdom at your own peril.

 

[Ikes]

Fair point, I'd say.
On the other hand, Melee.
Melee is nothing but cheese (5% kills with rest, 0-deaths with Ice Climbers, Shine existing, Sheik invalidating half the cast with her grab, etc.) and I'd say that game has been pretty successful competitively.
HOWEVER, this game is the first Smash with a usable online mode, so character balance for the casual audience is gonna take priority. As a result, balance patches exist.
Seriously do you guys even remember how ridiculous 1.0 Sheik was? Up air killed so early, Bair killed early, needles were even MORE polarizing, and Fair did like 8% or something. Now tell me that a community that can't handle a single kill setup existing would've been able to deal with that.

on the other hand, look at the tremendous amount of effort and the huge amounts of risk many of these moves put you at.

Melee mostly abided by my philosophy, at least in the effort department. getting these results often required absurd amounts of effort and focus, albeit sometimes they didnt have quite the risk that they should have.

they definitely fit the effort/risk/reward philosophy for the most part.

 

[bc1910]

If lightning kicks had bigger sweetspots or if Zelda had a way to confirm them consistently, she'd be one of the best characters in the game. A player who manages to find opportunities to land kicks consistently would be extremely scary to fight. Those things do kill incredibly early.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If lightning kicks had bigger sweetspots or if Zelda had a way to confirm them consistently, she'd be one of the best characters in the game. A player who manages to find opportunities to land kicks consistently would be extremely scary to fight. Those things do kill incredibly early.

You're probably right. I remember back in the Melee days (when I was still pretty casual) and used Zelda for whatever reason against a friend. Ended up landing several sweetspot kicks in a row on him and he was kind of terrified for a while after that. I still lost but whatever.

@ Thinkaman I have basically no doubles experience so I'll take your word on all of that, but 1v1 what can Zelda do? I know what her buttons are but I'm still struggling to figure out what she actually wants to do.

 

[Meru.]

However, having nearly all of her attacks as transcended priority,

Other than Fsmash every other move of hers gets beaten pretty easily.

thrown in with a relatively fast start up transcended and invincible reflector

with tons of ending lag

Although a bit silly to say, if you've played against some Zelda amiibos, you can kinda gather what Zelda could be doing to people; essentially sweetspotting kicks in tight quarters like you'd expect a godlike Jigglypuff player to do similar with Rest. I know it's a bit of a stretch to think of it like this, but it's weighing "unreliability" against "high skill based win button".

Her lightning kicks have 20+ frames ending lag and can't be autocanceled but until frame million. The range on Lightning Kicks is still exactly the same from Brawl except in Brawl kicks had almost no lag. Still, nobody succeeded on consistently getting sweetspotted kicks even though I'm sure many have tried to 'master' it (and probably also try to in this game). I know this isn't the same game as Brawl, but what has made people think getting sweetspotted kicks consistently has suddenly become possible?

Characters without disjoints nor solid camp tools vs her reflector can definitely have a hard time.

For example?

but her reliable confirms

Reliable confirms? Such as??? If you mention Dtilt, I'm going to fly to Australia and personally Dtilt Lightning Kick you to the face.

diversity of positions she can be in to punish extending limbs are... strong.

Ehh she punishes harder but she's definitely worse than about every character in forcing her opponent to be where she wants them to be.

I personally think Samus and customs off Palutena can't really make much claim to be better than her. I genuinely think Jiggly is worse too.

Samus isn't great but she has more reliable tools than Zelda. Charge Shot is super scary, her Zair is good, she has some tricks with Uair and her UpB is pretty decent too. Not MUCH better than Zelda but defintely above her. Palutena's Bair is better than Zelda's entire moveset. No idea about Jiggly (I have only played bad ones) but I can't imagine her being worse than Zelda.

Zelda is pretty decent in teams but she's bad in 1v1. She can pull out a few tricks here and there and her punishes demand respect, but once player respects her and gets to know the match-up just a little bit... oh boy.[/quote]

 

[Ffamran]

I just realized something: Villager's Dair is sort of like a RNG pre-Smash 4 Falco Dair... Why is it frame 8?! Why is it so strong?! And why does it basically halve Villager's hurtbox while putting out a hitbox about the size of Villager?!

 

[LightLV]

Although a bit silly to say, if you've played against some Zelda amiibos, you can kinda gather what Zelda could be doing to people; essentially sweetspotting kicks in tight quarters like you'd expect a godlike Jigglypuff player to do similar with Rest. I know it's a bit of a stretch to think of it like this, but it's weighing "unreliability" against "high skill based win button".

Characters without disjoints nor solid camp tools vs her reflector can definitely have a hard time. She may seem to go poorly in attrition, but her reliable confirms, diversity of positions she can be in to punish extending limbs are... strong. I personally think Samus and customs off Palutena can't really make much claim to be better than her. I genuinely think Jiggly is worse too.

Seeing as Amiibos are controlled by the CPU and have to be programmed to not be flawless, i'm not sure if that's a great poster for what Zelda could be. I don't deny she's probably under utilized, but from her kit alone i doubt anything will emerge that's significant enough to move her from her current stigma.

I totally disagree about Palu vs. Zelda though. I really don't even know anything a good zelda player even has over her. Palu has an invincible dash attack and an invincible Bair, is WAY more mobile with a great disjointed jab and a decent throw game. The few options palu has I think totally beat Zelda ground to ground, ground to air AND air to air. What does zelda have left on her?

 

[Senko Zero]

The FGC has historically banned character creation IIRC, but that shouldn't necessarily compel us to do the same.

These are the most sensible options IMO:
-no restrictions on character creation regardless of customs
-allow all specials but restrict to default size (only to prevent the logistical nightmare of size counterpicking)
-ban Miis altogether

The 1111 rule is even dumber than outright banning Miis IMO. It strikes the worst balance between game preservation and elegance-logistics out of any popular solution.

This post was a few pages behind, but I figured I would respond to give a bit of insight on how some other games handled custom\create a characters.

Soul Calibur Create A Souls were banned were differing reasons but almost the same depending on the game. In 3, the CAS characters had their own unique fighting styles but they differed from being either too average, WAY too weak or in the case of two the best in the game. A friend of mine was one of the key driving force behind getting them banned in that game as one of them was just too strong but could be defeated if you adapted. They got banned for a reason similar to what is happening here: some people just don't want to learn how to fight them.

The other reason was that if you used a CAS based on an existing character, you would have screwed up hitbox issues. For example, you could give a smaller character Astaroth's style (the biggest character in the game that was also grappler) and the smaller character would still have the range of his longer range grabs. Imagine if you gave Pikachu Bowser's Forward B and it had the exact same range but lacked the hurtboxes Bowser did. That's the other reason they got banned in 3, 4 and 5.

In the case of Mii Fighters, only one of those things kinda exists. Considering that they only real thing you have to worry about is hitbox differences (and they don't seem to be that major differences in the weights here aside from biggest and smallest, at least to my knowledge) and selecting their moves, I don't see a reason for them to be banned.

If the menu is really in question, I would think that having some pre packaged miis (one for smallest, one for biggest and maybe one in the middle) at each station for use to people to quickly select their moves should have no reason not to work, unless that is already the standard.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't see much reason for Miis to be banned. And this is from someone who plays aganist Mii Brawler often and has to deal with easy kill setups. I still say let them be played.

 

[LightLV]

Mii brawler is obnoxious and think it's ******** that i'm able to be Star KO'd by a strike that connected at 30%, but i dunno if that's deserving of a ban, i'd fight a solid Mii Brawler before a decent top-5 pick any day. I havent played a gunner that made me think it was anything other than a bad pick idea, and i dont know about the other.

 

[Gawain]

If lightning kicks had bigger sweetspots or if Zelda had a way to confirm them consistently, she'd be one of the best characters in the game. A player who manages to find opportunities to land kicks consistently would be extremely scary to fight. Those things do kill incredibly early.

Gonna emphasize this. Zelda's biggest issues are that she can't really confirm into most of her really great tools at percents that it matters. I've said it before: being able to get easy kills with one or two tools or being able to at least get kills with lots of tools that you can reliably get into with less risky committmentsi is primarily what puts the top tiers where they are.

 

[LimitCrown]

There isn't any reason for Mii Fighters to be banned in tournaments that prohibit custom moves whatsoever because they can easily be standardized. It is strange that they are banned in some of those tournaments regardless of that.

 

[Aquamentii]

My general take on Zelda is that she's like Marth in neutral (spacing with heavy punish options if said spacing is on point) but without a sword, and more predictable. She has good kill power with upB, f-tilt, and f-smash, along with both Fair and Bair, and a decent dunk with Dair. However, most of these options are simply telegraphed every time she jumps in the air. I could see a zelda destroying a flustered opponent, but anyone calm, patient and on top of their game can't lose to her without some super hard reads.

 

[ZarroTsu]

There isn't any reason for Mii Fighters to be banned in tournaments that prohibit custom moves whatsoever because they can easily be standardized. It is strange that they are banned in some of those tournaments regardless of that.

They cannot easily be standardized. Because the 1111 Miis you're fighting desperately to hold as a compromise are not valid (in the context of actually playing the game itself as a video game in a competitive setting instead of looking at the numerical order on a menu screen) movesets. Which is why everyone who doesn't hide behind menu aesthetic as an excuse would love to standardize better sets for Miis in default.

I don't understand how you can be complaining about Miis not deserving special treatment on one page and then turning around and wondering why they've probable cause for ban the next. It's an all-or-nothing situation. Your ideal, perfect, flawless, well-thought-out and deeply researched "compromise" doesn't work.

The closest comparison to this situation with Mii Fighters I can think of, although it will make me sound like a prick, is any IRL person suffering a handicap. Saying the necessities required to make day-to-day life possible for this person is "special treatment", and then asking "why do they get a special parking spot when I have to walk?" is what this argument sounds like.

I can't believe I have to make this comparison.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Guys, I know miis are a tough subject (I main Swordfighter after all) but I think we've gone past impressions of characters and just plain started a whole new realm of discussion. It might be worth making a whole new thread for it.

On the note of Zelda, with those potential sweetsots being so devistating, is there any possibility of her being able to eliminate Luma and then using those to her advantage to mess with Rosalina due to her large height and weight class?