Character Competitive Impressions

[mimgrim]

Any mode that isn't VS Mode is irrelevant to competitive Smash. It doesn't matter if they have a "default" mode in a completely different game mode that has no bearing on competitive Smash, as in VS mode, tbe main mode for competitive Smash is VS Mode and in that mode there is no true default for Miis.

 

[LimitCrown]

"We don't use Sudden Death in the event of a tie in order to determine a victor, and we enable Team Attack in doubles matches. Therefore, why would we use the behavior of the game in VS. Mode to reason that the Mii Fighters should be able to use their custom moves in tournaments that don't allow any?"

The type of argument like the one above doesn't really make sense. Yet, it's okay for the behavior of the game to be used to support Miis being able to use their custom moves in those types of tournaments. I think that it is hypocritical that my argument is apparently not valid just because it uses Event Mode as an example. The claim that the Miis don't have a default moveset is completely debunked by it, yet it apparently doesn't count.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think Ike is bad at all! He's just being slept on, or people prefer who has a similar playstyle yet more versatility.

Shulk and Ike don't actually have similar playstyles imo. Shulk really doesn't play like any other character in this game.

 

[bc1910]

Fact remains he's worse than before. But I only really think Sheik is overall better than Diddy at this point. Diddy still has insane potential, but people are not really as keep on learning them due to dissapointment he can no longer Hoo Hah to victory.

Yeah to be fair he IS worse but I'd give my left bollock for Greninja to have been nerfed only as hard as Diddy

Both characters still have lots of potential though. And Diddy is still a monster, he just has some serious killing/offstage issues against several characters which keeps him balanced despite being top tier. It's all about knowing the MU now, whereas before even knowing his weaknesses didn't help since you already got Hoo Hah'd at 90.

 

[Shaya]

ZSS outdoes Ike on the ground and her ground game is very well adjusted at dealing with Ike in the air, combined with the mobility perks and Ike's lack of mid-range gameplay I don't think it Ike has much of a good time against her at all. He can't force air vs air, nor his ground vs our air too much without ZSS controlling the conditions most of the time.
He's very prone to getting grabbed trying to advance himself. When Ike gets a hit, ZSS' ability to flip jump out is usually pretty hard for him to capitalize on as well

 

[GeneralLedge]

I would like to know how that argument is invalid in any way. It is hypocritical to allow the Mii Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner to be able to use all 12 of their respective special moves while all of the other characters can only use their default special moves.

I'd like to push for explicitly ONE custom Mii move that Miis are limited to. For example, 2122 for Brawler, 2131 for Mii Sword, etc.

If Miis have this EXACTLY ONE set in default, would the argument still be valid? It's impossible to limit other characters to exactly one non-1111 set. The argument for them being "able to use all 12 of their respectable special moves" is no longer an issue.

Moreover, this is a logistical flaw that bugs the heck out of me. The only characters even remotely similar to Miis in the way their customs work are Megaman and Palutena. Every other character in the game simply has variations on their moves that swap damage for safety or safety for speed. Miis, and Mega/Palu, all have explicitly different customs. Miis, in fact, can change every aspect about themselves based on size as well as customs, and no two Miis would BE the 'same' character.

Explicitly saying having multiple Mii Swords or Mii Brawlers is a crap argument, because in my eyes I have a 'Quote', a 'Kamina', and a 'Pearl' Mii. All three of them use a sword, but they aren't the same character. Neither of these three play remotely similar to one another, each has different frame data, and each has different special moves.

If you want to argue these three Miis being "just Mii Sword", then ban Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Shulk and Ike don't actually have similar playstyles imo. Shulk really doesn't play like any other character in this game.

They are both heavier than average swordsmen who's fastest attacks / most reliable option is their Jab combo and rely on spacing their swords with max range, create pressure situations and all that. But Shulk also has the Monado Arts, which make him far more versatile and a whole different character in some cases (Speed, Jump, Weight). So I think that in base-moveset, they are quite similar.

Yeah to be fair he IS worse but I'd give my left bollock for Greninja to have been nerfed only as hard as Diddy

Both characters still have lots of potential though. And Diddy is still a monster, he just has some serious killing/offstage issues against several characters which keeps him balanced despite being top tier. It's all about knowing the MU now, whereas before even knowing his weaknesses didn't help since you already got Hoo Hah'd at 90.

Oh yeah it would've been SO MUCH WORSE if Diddy got Greninja-like nerfs... I'll fullheartly agree with that! Still, Greninja is a neat character. Got some learning curve, but that adds to his charm. I believe he still has great potential but the nerfs need to stop.

I am also upset that Diddy has rather poor off-stage pressure. But Side B, D Air and Peanuts can do wonders still. However, it would've been so much easier if Diddy could just, y'know, chase people off-stage and give them a good F Air to the face. A B Air is far less risky, as Side B allows you to get back on the stage still- but that's less reliable and more predictable. I kinda just wish Diddy had air speed and a B Air like DK at times...

 

[the king of murder]

ZSS outdoes Ike on the ground and her ground game is very well adjusted at dealing with Ike in the air, combined with the mobility perks and Ike's lack of mid-range gameplay I don't think it Ike has much of a good time against her at all. He can't force air vs air, nor his ground vs our air too much without ZSS controlling the conditions most of the time.
He's very prone to getting grabbed trying to advance himself. When Ike gets a hit, ZSS' ability to flip jump out is usually pretty hard for him to capitalize on as well

Yeah her mobility and our midrange options can be a real issue for Ike, though I would be very careful about abusing down-b against Ike since he can still chase ZSS. Not to mention Ike can challenge the flipjump with Fair and Bair because of their disjoints. I really wish Ike had a better Dash Attack, that would solve his midrange problem.

ZSS still has to respect his range and reward, which means she should be playing campy as hell.

ZSS can abuse Zair. Really underrated move.

 

[LightLV]

I don't think Ike has much of anything over ZSS except kill power. Even on the ground, he's prone to just get grabbed, and she has alot of ways to harass him in the air and there isn't much Ike can do about it. It's another case of Ike just having to play extremely solid to make use of whatever few advantages he has against a character like that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

They are both heavier than average swordsmen who's fastest attacks / most reliable option is their Jab combo and rely on spacing their swords with max range, create pressure situations and all that. But Shulk also has the Monado Arts, which make him far more versatile and a whole different character in some cases (Speed, Jump, Weight). So I think that in base-moveset, they are quite similar.

Ike's jab, grab and dtilt are better than Shulk's in neutral and his nair is a more practical option in close range than Shulk's nair is. Ike is pretty solid in neutral but I think he's not very good at abusing advantaged positions and he isn't as good as Shulk at escaping from a disadvantaged position. Their moveset looks similar but their playstyle is quite different.

 

[mimgrim]

"We don't use Sudden Death in the event of a tie in order to determine a victor, and we enable Team Attack in doubles matches. Therefore, why would we use the behavior of the game in VS. Mode to reason that the Mii Fighters should be able to use their custom moves in tournaments that don't allow any?"

The type of argument like the one above doesn't really make sense. Yet, it's okay for the behavior of the game to be used to support Miis being able to use their custom moves in those types of tournaments. I think that it is hypocritical that my argument is apparently not valid just because it uses Event Mode as an example. The claim that the Miis don't have a default moveset is completely debunked by it, yet it apparently doesn't count.

Firstly the team attack thing is a toogable option that can be done in VS mode and doesn't make sense as a counter argument.

I also think the way tie breakers are handled currently is stupid but that is really ingrained into the competitive community. It was a decision made the community that went directly against what the game stated as a tiebreaker but it was still no less a biased and arbitrary decision.

Also if anyone is being hypocritical it's you since you are simply using something else the game says in in a mode not related to competitive play as justifacation for your argument while also saying that listening to the game isn't needed, meanwhile I never actually said anything hypocritical and you just assumed you knew my thoughts.

 

[Space thing]

A reversal of his nerfs would make a massive difference but FullMoon kind of already covered it. Shuriken and Usmash would indeed make the biggest difference but any buff from pre-patch would be welcome.



In response to both of you, it is possible that his range has only been nerfed on the Wii U version. There are still differences between the Wii U and 3DS versions after all, I'm told that Mii Gunner is different on 3DS and this could be another example. But yeah, on the Wii U version I am 100% sure that his range has been nerfed from pre-1.0.4 3DS. Are you both testing on the 3DS or Wii U? Is there any way you could provide footage of his Fsmash making Marth's counter whiff on the 3DS? My 3DS is broken so although I do have the game still, I can't test anything.

The range nerf would have been from 1.0.3 to 1.0.4. Also yeah it's not in any of the data collected about the patch and I don't know how it was missed, Smashwiki makes some comment about Usmash's hitboxes getting smaller but that's all. When in reality all of his Smashes have smaller hitboxes and animations. You can even see it. Watch old videos, or videos of Greninja's Wii U build at E3 last year, you will see that his Smashes had significantly more range. The fact that Marth's counter no longer whiffs his Fsmash (or Usmash for that matter) is pretty definitive proof as well.

Data from patches is stored in a very strange way in this game, frame data is tied to animations for example so it's always hard to discern changes. It's possible that the raw hitbox data has not changed, but the animations for his Smashes have changed and within that are the hitbox changes.

@Lavani Pre-patch Usmash did combo into Uair yeah, I do remember that and it registered as a true combo in training. I... don't think it was that big a deal though. It only worked at a somewhat specific percent range and it's not like Uair deals huge amounts of damage. Also with our increased understanding of hitstun as of late it may have been possible to airdodge out of this combo, which no-one really tried in my experience.

I'm fairly sure pre-patch Usmash had more ending lag than Ganon's Usmash, I'm the first to admit I could be wrong on that but even so it didn't deal as much damage on the sides and thus dealt less shieldstun and shield pushback, so it wasnt safe on block. I still stand by the fact that despite being "dumb", there was reasonable counterplay to pre-patch Usmash. It may have been low risk but it definitely did not have ridiculous reward, even the sweetspot did not kill until about 100% on average. Either a range nerf or ending lag nerf would have been better, but both is overkill, and frankly I think it should have been left alone because it was far easier to deal with than most of the top tier nonsense even now. We've got people arguing over whether you should block Luigi's fireballs with your face and all you had to do against pre-patch Usmash was press R and enjoy your free dashgrab.

I tested the Marth counter thing on the Wii U version (I had no real way of doing it on the 3DS), so yes, he can still make Marth's counter wiff on the Wii U. For the pre-patch 3DS differences, I looked at old videos of Fsmash (and Dsmash but less in-depth) just barely missing or hitting and I used land marks to recreate those instances on a 1.07 3DS. They hit or missed in the same situations. Either it was completely unchanged or the change is NOT very noticeable at all. The animations also looked the same to me in terms of range for sure.

And I do agree that if Luigi gets fireballs and Sheik needles, there's no reason why Greninja's Shuriken should have been changed. All are kind of dumb IMO, but still.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't think Ike is bad at all! He's just being slept on, or people prefer who has a similar playstyle yet more versatility.

Not even. The most they have in common is reach.

 

[LimitCrown]

I'd like to push for explicitly ONE custom Mii move that Miis are limited to. For example, 2122 for Brawler, 2131 for Mii Sword, etc.

If Miis have this EXACTLY ONE set in default, would the argument still be valid? It's impossible to limit other characters to exactly one non-1111 set. The argument for them being "able to use all 12 of their respectable special moves" is no longer an issue.

I'm not sure what you're trying to state. One of the arguments that is being made is that the Miis don't have anything considered to be a default by the game. I've shown that this isn't the case. If a different set of special moves were intended to be the defaults, then each of those would have been labeled with "1" in the first place, which is what the defaults for every other character is labeled in the first place.

Moreover, this is a logistical flaw that bugs the heck out of me. The only characters even remotely similar to Miis in the way their customs work are Megaman and Palutena. Every other character in the game simply has variations on their moves that swap damage for safety or safety for speed. Miis, and Mega/Palu, all have explicitly different customs. Miis, in fact, can change every aspect about themselves based on size as well as customs, and no two Miis would BE the 'same' character.

Explicitly saying having multiple Mii Swords or Mii Brawlers is a crap argument, because in my eyes I have a 'Quote', a 'Kamina', and a 'Pearl' Mii. All three of them use a sword, but they aren't the same character. Neither of these three play remotely similar to one another, each has different frame data, and each has different special moves.

If you want to argue these three Miis being "just Mii Sword", then ban Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario.

Those "minor" variations that most of the other characters' special moves have can change the strategies needed when using the special moves and when you are fighting those characters. Different strategies can arise. Therefore, I could argue that any custom moveset that may be created for those characters are just as much "new characters" as the different movesets for the Mii Fighters are. Palutena, whose custom moves are very unique with their own animations, is the most similar to the Mii Fighters. However, the comparison shouldn't be made between those two characters for whatever reason. Apparently, it is fine for the Mii Fighters to be able to use their custom moves in tournaments that prohibit them while Palutena isn't able to despite the fact that both characters' custom moves are very unique and are available from the start.

There are only three main trophies, three alternates, and three Final Smash trophies for the three different types of Mii Fighters. I had previously compared adjusting the height and weight of the Mii to equipment because both affect their mobility, damage output, and resistance to knockback in a somewhat similar way. The Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner each have their own template. Therefore, every Mii Fighter of the same type will have the same animations and very similar hitboxes for attacks. They are not really that different from each other unless you use different custom moves. However, the same could be said for every other character.

The three clone characters have different properties in their attacks from the original. Lucina doesn't have the tipper mechanic and her strong up attack deals more damage behind her. Dark Pit's strong side attack deals less knockback, his arrows are stronger but their trajectory can't be easily influenced, he has the Electroshock Arm, and he has a different Final Smash. Dr. Mario has the most differences, with the latest major update altering the knockback angle of his up smash attack.

@ mimgrim The argument that "Miis don't have any default custom moves" seems to be mainly a semantic dispute. This is only because the reasoning is that because they can use theirs in Vs. mode at any point, they must not have anything considered to be custom moves whatsoever, which isn't actually the case because Event Mode prevents them from using those moves. The moveset that the Mii Fighters are only able to use while customization is disabled is, unsurprisingly, the one that all Mii Fighters start with, "1111". I wasn't accusing you in particular of being hypocritical. I was pointing out that, apparently, the arguments of those who want the Miis to be able to use all of their attacks is justified because the game allows them to in VS. Mode, but my argument that the Miis have a default moveset is not valid because I used a supposedly unrelated mode as a clear example of designating one to them. Never mind the fact that all of the other characters are treated the same way. Apparently, I'm the one who is hypocritical because I don't try to find loopholes in the definitions of "custom moves" and "defaults"?

 

[TriTails]

It's kind of funny they nerfed Luigi's Fireball and making it now has a sourspot. The 1.0.4 game literally tells you in the tips that 'Luigi's Fireball doesn't travel as far as his brother's, but it DOES NOT lose power the farther it goes from Luigi'.

But then again. Almost none of Luigi's mains even noticed this.

And I do agree that if Luigi gets fireballs and Sheik needles, there's no reason why Greninja's Shuriken should have been changed. All are kind of dumb IMO, but still.

Luigi is a slow moving character that has below average dashing speed and terrible airspeed.
Greninja is a mobility monster that has the best (Not even gonna hold back on this one. Dashing speed + Airspeed + Falling speed all look really solid) mobility in the game.

Though. I'd agree on Luigi's Fireballs are a bit overtuned, but the fact that he has among the worst mobility in the game made me think he needs them. Maybe increase the end lag a tiny bit, but I'm not sure on that one. Because one wrong nerf and he is getting Greninja'd.

But Sheik's an overblown one.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I'm not sure what you're trying to state. One of the arguments that is being made is that the Miis don't have anything considered to be a default by the game. I've shown that this isn't the case. If a different set of special moves were intended to be the defaults, then each of those would have been labeled with "1" in the first place, which is what the defaults for every other character is labeled in the first place.

If you're going to make this argument, I'm done talking to you. If an indeterminate number intended solely to differentiate things is the biggest kicker in your book, you have a very fragile outlook on menu design.

If these moves were differentiated with "Square, Triangle, Circle" instead of "1, 2, 3", would you still argue "It's unfair because most character defaults are squares"? Or does that not sound even remotely silly to you? If they weren't differentiated at all, would that have solved the goddamn problem? Or would you argue that "these moves are on the top of the menu"? If we organized all the moves in the game in a fifth dimensional hyperspace wherein none of them have priority in the slightest, what would your argument be then?

 

[san.]

All that event mode proves is that the developers were capable of manually setting Miis' specials to 1 and that the current implementation in vs. mode is not a coding limitation or anything of that nature. For whatever reason, there was a decision to not impose that limit in the modes that we use in multiplayer and even some other forms of singleplayer. That means that it's "fair" within the scope of what the game allows, and most people don't consider them to be OP even with their specials.

Rules can be added that severely limit some characters' options (Mii specials) or add options (Palutena's customs), but using fairness as an argument for the former is incorrect. I'd rather people just be straight up and say they simply don't want it or something.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't really agree with that. Ike has great followups from grabs but in order to get the kill, he has to get a read off an air dodge or some other kind of trap. All of his throws send the opponent too far for any of his moves to true combo at kill percents. He can't true combo into his kills, which is honestly a really important part of being a high tier character. Luigi can true combo into his kill moves. So can Diddy Kong, Sheik, Captain Falcon, etc. Unless they have the ability to zone you out to the point at which being able to combo means literally nothing (Rosalina), then I'd consider it an important quality. Ike can edge guard pretty well for kills vs lots of types of characters, which is one of his bigger strengths imo, but he has a really hard time vs the ones he can't do this to.

Uthrow true combos into Uair at kill percents. No reading, no air dodge to worry about. The only factor is rage to some extent.

Ike and Shulk have similar looking moves yes, but they play pretty differently. Ike has more consistent combos (as in not needing to switch to a Mondo Art for one), a better throw game, a more consistent recovery (doesn't need to switch to a Mondo Art), and is a bit quicker in CQC. Shulk has a bit better range and of course his Mondo Arts.

Basically Ike is a lot more consistent, and he's better than Vanilla Shulk. Shulk can be better than Ike at one thing for a limited amount of time (Mondo Art).

@ZSS MU: The one ZSS I played in a tournament I beat. But they had absolutely no clue how to play against Ike that wasn't FG tier and I had a general idea of how to approach the ZSS MU. Involved lots of baiting out Paralyzer and punishing.

Really at this point... I think Ike's biggest issues is that all of his best players are in regions that just don't stream and don't post results much at all. We had one guy do really good in Alaska, another guy with similar results by taking 4th out of 250 at MomoCon (knocked out the #4 player in GA). San, Ryo, and others are still doing good at their local tournament scenes but those areas just... don't report anything. So there is zero hype build up for Ike and very little knowledge of what he can do out there. On top of that, APEX was absolutely terrible for Ike mains so no major ones bothered going.

For major flaws as a character... Dash Attack. Why doesn't he actually swing his arms outward fully anymore during it? And what happened to its damage? Gimme us back Brawl's Dash Attack, the ability to grab the ledge during aether with our back turned to it and we're good to go. Bonus points if we get Brawl's Jab Combo damage and Frame 3 start up back.

Or we could get the jab cancelling back and rocket up the tiers. That would be nice, the ability to combo into Grab or Dtilt at will, and a good chance of comboing into Utilt...

 

[LiteralGrill]

So we'll have a new matchup to discuss on the 14th.

 

[Luco]

Didn't you see? I already changed my avatar for the occasion!

So sad that Dtilt lock probably won't be a thing (considering the new meteor mechanics).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Didn't you see? I already changed my avatar for the occasion!

So sad that Dtilt lock probably won't be a thing (considering the new meteor mechanics).

Hey don't get down too fast lol. Plenty of moves that jab locked before jab lock now, like Falco's lasers. And there are other ways to set them up but I am kinda sad the OG Lucas death-combo won't be a thing. That **** was so satisfying in Brawl.

 

[LimitCrown]

If you're going to make this argument, I'm done talking to you. If an indeterminate number intended solely to differentiate things is the biggest kicker in your book, you have a very fragile outlook on menu design.

If these moves were differentiated with "Square, Triangle, Circle" instead of "1, 2, 3", would you still argue "It's unfair because most character defaults are squares"? Or does that not sound even remotely silly to you? If they weren't differentiated at all, would that have solved the goddamn problem? Or would you argue that "these moves are on the top of the menu"? If we organized all the moves in the game in a fifth dimensional hyperspace wherein none of them have priority in the slightest, what would your argument be then?

You're trying to be facetious. In any case, the game clearly prevents the Miis from using their custom moves in one instance, which outright contradicts one of the main arguments, which is that they don't have anything considered to be the defaults by the game. That argument is also the basis of all of the others. Their default moveset also happens to be the 1111 moveset, which is the default moveset for all of the other characters as well. How the custom moves could be labeled is completely irrelevant, and I'm not sure why you would bring that up. It seems like a non sequitur.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh yeah it would've been SO MUCH WORSE if Diddy got Greninja-like nerfs... I'll fullheartly agree with that! Still, Greninja is a neat character. Got some learning curve, but that adds to his charm. I believe he still has great potential but the nerfs need to stop.

Why do people act like Greninja got nerfed all the time when it really only happened once? We only got two balance patches and he only got nerfed in one. The bufix patch only removed a Shadow Sneak quirk that had very little practical use.

I'm fully expecting Greninja to go untouched by balance patches from now on other than maybe fixing the Shadow Sneak hitstun cancel, which really only was useful against MK so no big deal.

I'm still hoping they fix Up-Air to properly connect though, missing kills because people fall out of it is no fun.

 

[Ikes]

I think samus might be the worst character in the game if we're talking from a competitive/tournament environment.

 

[PUK]

But Mii are forbidden in FG and FF, so they're are not supposed to use in default, am i right?
They don't have default, since only default are authorized in FG.

 

[Thinkaman]

I agree that the distinction between Palutena and Mii Fighter move options is semantic and trivial.

However, this only underlines, in giant bold letters, that this is all a menu issue.

If there was just a reasonable menu GUI on the CSS for easily selecting move options (with no silly unlocking), no one would ever be having this conversation.

This single observation undermines the entire """debate""".

 

[san.]

Gimme us back Brawl's Dash Attack

If you spoke to me a year ago, I never would've guessed these words would be uttered.

Rango was just mentioned with 4th at MomoCon and he places well locally. Ryuga gets top 8 in Michigan where even Ally has some struggles to consistently win. Only thing I did so far was 3rd at a relatively large local in Canada with ~120ish people, but there was a large drop outside of top 8. I get ~1st-2nd at our 25 man locals, though there's a large gap after the top 3. Ryo I believe gets around the top 5 area. SM occasionally gets top 5 in Socal with Larry, ZeRo, etc. in attendance. Waldo usually wins his locals, too.

He does okay, but it's definitely very difficult for the average player. He has his own niche for being able to dish out punishment while taking it, but as I stated before, his moveset is centralized on his best moves. It's a similar case to Brawl where Ike was mostly grab, jab, and nair with the occasional situational move. Dash attack needs a 10-frame shoulder bash into the sword hit. Uair needs to be stronger. Jab2 needs a little extra damage and jab1 a little extra hitstun. I think that being able to grab the edge with reverse aether can be abusable. I'd rather just have more horizontal control and have it start up faster. The legacy IASA frames on the aerials also need to be massively toned down, especially with dair since the lingering hitboxes were removed.

You're trying to be facetious. In any case, the game clearly prevents the Miis from using their custom moves in one instance, which outright contradicts one of the main arguments, which is that they don't have anything considered to be the defaults by the game. That argument is also the basis of all of the others.

That's not the basis of my argument. Going into whatever default is doesn't lead anywhere, and it's reaching to say that prevention of using other moves in one instance contradicts their use in all other instances. At that point, you go into the design scope for what the developers wanted in event mode (that tends to have many seemingly arbitrary limitations, though that's the nature of the mode itself).

My argument is to allow what the game allows, with any deviations calling for extra rules. We want to have the least amount of extraneous rules and only intervene if it negatively affects competitive play. You can toggle settings to 2-3 stocks, customs on or customs off, etc, but the community has to intervene for stages and sudden death that are unfit for competitive play. The game allows the miis to use their specials with customs off, and there is nothing there unfit for competitive play. Competitively, I wouldn't understand limiting those specials. If you want surgical adjustments or if you just don't like that feature of the character, anything goes at that point.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I made a Reddit Topic about the "issue", as straight-forwardly as I could, regarding the logical fallacy of "order".

In any case, the game clearly prevents the Miis from using their custom moves in one instance,

There's an entirely different forum if you want to talk about single-player modes. I'm 99% sure this topic is in regards to the 'Smash' mode.

 

[Luco]

I think samus might be the worst character in the game if we're talking from a competitive/tournament environment.

Samus has a lot of issues, but personally I find is still probably the worst character in this game.

 

[Thinkaman]

Zelda is most likely the worst 1v1 character in the game. She is solid in teams though, and imo a likely top 5 character in 4v4.

Her crippling flaws are all contingent on her being required to fight in the neutral.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Samus has a lot of issues, but personally I find is still probably the worst character in this game.

Am also agreeing that it has to be Zelda.

 

[bc1910]

I also think Zelda is the worst. How are her results though? Wasn't Nairo putting in work with her at the start of the game's life?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Worst character in the game? There is no right answer. No matter what you say there is always someone who will disagree. Hell, in Smash 64 we still don't know who the worst character is (their tier list was recently updated and now Luigi is supposedly the worst).

 

[Thinkaman]

Besides Zelda, any answer seems absurd. Charizard? Bowser? DDD? Lucina? Falco? Swordfighter? Samus? Gunner?

It feels ridiculous even typing them.

 

[LimitCrown]

That's not the basis of my argument. Going into whatever default is doesn't lead anywhere, and it's reaching to say that prevention of using other moves in one instance contradicts their use in all other instances. At that point, you go into the design scope for what the developers wanted in event mode (that tends to have many seemingly arbitrary limitations, though that's the nature of the mode itself).

My argument is to allow what the game allows, with any deviations calling for extra rules. We want to have the least amount of extraneous rules and only intervene if it negatively affects competitive play. You can toggle settings to 2-3 stocks, customs on or customs off, etc, but the community has to intervene for stages and sudden death that are unfit for competitive play. The game allows the miis to use their specials with customs off, and there is nothing there unfit for competitive play. Competitively, I wouldn't understand limiting those specials. If you want surgical adjustments or if you just don't like that feature of the character, anything goes at that point.

Event Mode isn't that much different from Master Orders, a mode in which the odds can be heavily stacked against you. This is basically the case for all of the single-player modes in higher difficulties. The Mii Fighters can only be selected for events that are based on Super Smash Bros. itself, which allow you to select any of the characters that you may have. It happens that in this case, the Mii Fighters are affected by customization being disabled and they can use only their default moveset. It also shows that they have a default moveset in the first place. I don't think that it should be disregarded just because it is not VS Mode.

The issue is that if you allow the Mii Fighters to use their custom moves at any time, regardless of whether custom moves are prohibited, then you're basically giving the Mii Fighters special treatment.

 

[Macedonian]

samus and falco have way more reward then charzard and zelda withtheirreliable combos. Charge shot is a more reliable killer then anything zelda has. Samus is way heavier and harder to combo due to her floaty nature, and a bair from samus feels easier to land then a lightning kick and is almost as powerfull.

IMO zelda is the worst 1v1, all of her specials are very punishable, she has no great bread and butter combos, poor speed.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Mii Fighters are customizable characters, used to make any character you want in the game. Their introduction to Smash Brothers was the ability to make any character you want.

They get "Special Treatment" because that is exactly how the character is supossed to function.

This is not a custom-only aspect of the game. Miis are supposed to be any persona you want them to be. You're supposed to make Abraham Lincoln or Ice Tea. You aren't supposed to limit them to a falsified smokescreen perpetuated to people who mis-understand this.

Mii Fighters are NOT, themselves, characters. THEY. ARE. NOT. They are a medium to CREATE YOUR OWN CHARACTER.

If this is so far beyond the understanding of anyone in this community, we need to take a few steps back because the meta is far beyond our understanding of developing beyond 'press buttons'. Because clearly it is too challenging an aspect of a game to figure out, when you can't grasp the idea of a "CREATE YOUR CHARACTER" feature.


And that is THE BOTTOM LINE. The difference between Miis and Customs is CREATING A CHARACTER vs CHANGING AN EXISTING ONE.

 

[Firefoxx]

I also think Zelda is the worst. How are her results though? Wasn't Nairo putting in work with her at the start of the game's life?

A lot of people were, she even made a few grand finals on the 3DS. Pretty sure most of that has dried up and Nairo wouldn't use her in a serious set. Cosmo uses her, and does alright in Chicago

 

[Djent]

The FGC has historically banned character creation IIRC, but that shouldn't necessarily compel us to do the same.

These are the most sensible options IMO:
-no restrictions on character creation regardless of customs
-allow all specials but restrict to default size (only to prevent the logistical nightmare of size counterpicking)
-ban Miis altogether

The 1111 rule is even dumber than outright banning Miis IMO. It strikes the worst balance between game preservation and elegance-logistics out of any popular solution.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Can we not just make SSJ Vegeta a 25:0 2122 Mii Brawler and call that the default universal Mii Brawler?

Can we not just make a Jack Sparrow 25:0 2131 Mii Sword and call that the default universal Mii Sword?

Can we not just make a Abe Lincoln 25:0 3122 Mii Gunner and call that the default universal Mii Gunner?

How is this 'unfair' to other characters? That's how SSJ, Jack Sparrow, and Abe Lincoln are supposed to act. No special treatment. Screw the menu numbers. That'll be all we get as Mii players. (except customs)